I have a friend that marks his disc with his mini and then sets his thrown disc in front of the mini in the direction of the target to me this is a throw he says it's not. Looking at the practice throw rule I think it's a throw. Who's right?

Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player�s lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie. Throws that are re-thrown in accordance with the rules are not practice throws. Provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3) are not practice throws. A player shall receive a penalty for a practice throw in accordance with sections 803.01 B or 804.02 A (2).

As I am sure Chuck will back me up on this one, it is NOT a throw. Mainly because it did not go 2 meters. Also I must go in a direction of the basket, from one's hand to the ground is not really toward the basket. Its down at the ground.

But mainly it did not go 2 meters.

Did he trow the disc or just set it down? Setting it down isn't "projection".

Scott the rule says any distance toward a target, even less than two meters.

If he standing at his lie, and hasn't thrown yet, the practice rule doesn't apply.

I wouldn't judge setting a disc down as "projection" of a disc.

Too lazy to look it up, but I believe the RC has determined that dropping a disc is not throwing it....if so, it would follow that setting one down is not throwing it, either.

wow. I cant believe this.

If anyone called me on placing my disc down near my lie, slightly closer to the hole or not, there would be a definite issue.

Leaving room for interpretation like the above statement is why a lot of rules are ridiculous.

From the Q&A:

800: Is a drop a throw?
Question

I was playing a casual round with some friends and had a shot wind up deep in some Evergreen trees. I tried to throw a forehand shot as my out shot, and when I brought the disc backward, it hit a tree branch and bounced forward out of my hand. My arm motion did not go forward at the time I lost grip of the disc, but the disc did bounce forward as a result of hitting the branch. The disc then rolled forward about three feet in front of me.

I counted it as a throw, even though my arm motion was not going forward at the time I lost my disc. I am curious if this is indeed how I should have scored the shot for future reference.
Response

Applicable Rules:

* 800 Definitions ("Throw")

The ruling here hinges on what constitutes a throw, or to put it another way, when a throw begins. A strict construal would have the throw begin once the player has taken a stance. One problem with that is that it is not obvious when a player has taken the stance they will throw from. Also, any release of the disc after that point (even setting the disc on the ground) could be interpreted as a throw. Such a strict interpretation raises other problems.

An alternative is to consider that the throw begins when movement of the disc in the intended direction begins. Under that interpretation, a disc dropped or knocked out before or during a backswing does not count as a throw. The rules committee prefers this more forgiving interpretation.

It is analogous to the requirement in football that the quarterback's arm must be moving forward for a pass to have occurred. At the point of time under consideration, the disc is still held, so forward arm movement equates to forward disc movement. After the release, direction of intent no longer matters. The disc may go sideways or backwards, but the important thing is that the arm moved in the direction of intent after a stance was taken and the disc was released, hence a throw occurred.

I have a friend that marks his disc with his mini and then sets his thrown disc in front of the mini in the direction of the target to me this is a throw he says it's not. Looking at the practice throw rule I think it's a throw. Who's right?

Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player�s lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie. Throws that are re-thrown in accordance with the rules are not practice throws. Provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3) are not practice throws. A player shall receive a penalty for a practice throw in accordance with sections 803.01 B or 804.02 A (2).



If this were the case, then it would be illegal to set your bag down closer to the hole than your lie @ any point. I don't see the rules being strictly interpreted to this extent. On a similar note, I think it would be helpful to define a practice throw as intentional.

I agree with this assessment, although I disagree with the practice of placing a thrown disc in front of its mark. while not really a big deal... it blurrs too many lines and IMO should be avoided. It could be constituted as a throw, altering one's lie, etc.

Of course it's not in the rules anywhere, so not enforceable... just a silly thing to do :)

If you wish to mess with another player who puts their disc in front of their mini, just invoke 803.05B and remove the player's disc...

803.05B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A player may not move, alter, bend, break, or hold back any part of any obstacle, including casual obstacles, between the lie and the hole, with one exception: A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as spectators, player's equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round.

wouldn't the movement of such an obstacle be relegated to the player whose lie is involved? In other words - moving another players equipment is supposed to be allowed if it is in YOUR way. It's not for you to judge if their own equipment is in THEIR way. Doing something like that would be looking for trouble IMO

In this case, the disc being placed in front is not in play and is just an obstacle that ended up on the playing surface during the round per the rules. If a branch falls down during play, anyone in the group can move it even if it's not their turn next. I'm not saying you pick up their disc, but indicate the rule allows it to be moved if requested. If the player places the disc behind their lie like most do, then it could be considered out of play and not subject to this particular rule. A player could ask that the other player's disc be moved if it was their turn and they felt it was in the way.

Chuck, you bring up a question I always ponder. If a limb falls DURING the round it can be moved. But I guess you have to witness the limb falling or else how do you know if it was there before the round started?

You don't know and can't move it unless maybe someone else says they saw it come down. This is a grey area somewhat like readjusting chains to their normal position. We allow chains to be readjusted even though not explicitly stated in the rules as allowed based on the assumption that they started out that way when the round started. It's a stretch, but if a big old limb is in the middle of the fairway and it looks like it just cracked off the tree, you could argue that it must have come down during the round because the fairways must have been in pristine condition before the round started.

because, of course, all TDs walk the course before each round and make sure that the fairways are playable :D:cool:

Thanks for clarifying Chuck.

All good TD's do.
My two assistant TD's and myself spent a week at our course before it started.
And the morning of the event, we used a leaf blower for every tee.

Granted we look forward to our week off work every year. lots of work to get ready and even more golfin.....

I agree. I do that myself. the comment was intended as a jab at those who do not. Some TDs are too busy counting the money to take care of their players :(

I agree baldguy, I was also trying to jab.

I don't take to many jabs, but this is one area I will always fight. I feel many TD's can do a little better each year.

I agree baldguy, I was also trying to jab.

I don't take to many jabs, but this is one area I will always fight. I feel many TD's can do a little better each year.


ALL TDs can do a little better each year. Even the most outstanding ones (Dodge, Law, Biscoe come to mind) miraculously find a way to do a little better each year.

If this were the case, then it would be illegal to set your bag down closer to the hole than your lie @ any point. I don't see the rules being strictly interpreted to this extent. On a similar note, I think it would be helpful to define a practice throw as intentional.



Actually, it would be illegal to put your bag down in front of you if you were facing the hole even behind you lie. You'd be "projecting" the discs toward the hole. You don't need to be in front of your lie to make a practice throw...

An alternative is to consider that the throw begins when movement of the disc in the intended direction begins.


in that case many of the stuff we count as strokes are not really throws

Have been marking my Disc and placing it in front or on Top of Marker, Never thought twice of it, Now I will place it to the right or in my Bag.

Intent should over-ride most alleged practice throws.

Intent is not necessarily obvious.

If you could think of the true purpose of a practice throw the only one I can think of would be testing for wind. If you aren't throwing to the point where something about you're next throw could be learned, I would say the intent is obvious.

If this were the case, then it would be illegal to set your bag down closer to the hole than your lie @ any point. I don't see the rules being strictly interpreted to this extent. On a similar note, I think it would be helpful to define a practice throw as intentional.



Actually, it would be illegal to put your bag down in front of you if you were facing the hole even behind you lie. You'd be "projecting" the discs toward the hole. You don't need to be in front of your lie to make a practice throw...



I was thinking more along a case where you are helping someone look for their disc and you pass your lie and put your bag down to look for the disc.

If you could think of the true purpose of a practice throw the only one I can think of would be testing for wind. If you aren't throwing to the point where something about you're next throw could be learned, I would say the intent is obvious.



There's a second purpose. Practice. For example when you are stuck at a backup hole for two hours and need to get warmed up again.

Intent is not necessarily obvious.



I would constitute a throwing motion as intent. Not necessarily intent to make a practice throw, but intent to throw the disc. This would at least provide some slack in the following case (and this has happened to me and my group did not penalize). I was competing at a hilly course (Robert Morris in Kzoo) and it was raining. I was wiping off my driver to put it in my bag on an incline near the basket and it slipped and hit the ground and rolled more than 2 meters. It was early in my tourney days and I was not sure of the rule. Now as I understand it I think that I could have been penalized. It seemed obvious in a humanistic way to my group that someone should not be penalized for dropping a disc in the rain/wind.

i have a question about finishing a hole. I remember seeing a worlds video with Ken Climo winning after a sluggish start against avery, moser and nate doss.

On the last hole, Climo tapped in for the victory but never removed the disc from the basket. In fact, if you watch the video, you can see a volunteer or a tourney assistant removed the disc for him as Climo did his hugs and victory romp.

is this considered a penalty? Just curious.

Now we know his secret to success! LOL I would imagine once it comes to rest, on the last hole, it's over and done and doesn't matter if it's left in or not, apparently. Interesting minutia, I never would have thought about that.

I think unless his card wanted to call him for a courtesy violation (not removing his disc to allow the next player to putt), then it is a non-issue. I'm thinking ol' KC was probably the last in anyway... I'm sure he was parked :)

thx. i just thinking that someone was just taking his putter for memorabilia. lol

like a fan running out and trying to take the winning game ball.. i hope this doesnt ruin things for innova and climo's stamp on world championships. :p

803.13 B. Doesn't matter who removes the disc. He holed out.

I have a quick question ....if someone could answer I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm new (playing for about 6 weeks) and have played in two tournaments. I've read the rules am I'm sure I understand them, but.....I want to know etiquette persay.
1-If you've thrown a drive and have then placed a marker where your disc lands; can you run up to that marker for a second throw or must you place your foot behind the marker and throw from there? 2-Both players in my group each picked up their discs (within a couple feet of the basket) and putted that disc without placing a marker. One of which didn't even throw the disc in, just reached over and tapped the chains with the disc. I believe those are infractions, BUT when "should" you say something? Being new, I don't want the rep of being a "rules [censored]", so what should I have done? It wasn't the difference in me winning or losing the tourney, just seeking advice.....

Yes you can run up, but when go to throw, your plant foot must be right behind the marker no more than a specified distance when you release the disc.

You should always mark your lie before picking up your disc, or you have to option to leave the disc on the ground and throw from behind it without marking, but in that case you can't throw the same disc from the previous throw.

I usually tell people that are holing out improperly, "Since this is a tournament, we're supposed completely hole out. Some people might stroke you for tapping the chains or picking up gimmies."

Thank you for your response. I was sure it was an infraction (the putt) but just getting involed in tournaments, I don't want others to have that preconceived option I'm all about the rules. I think if it would have made the difference between winning or losing I might have said something, but in this case I didn't.

Intent should over-ride most alleged practice throws.



I agree, I think this is an issue of nit-picking. The guy marked his lie then set his disc in front of his mini. Big Deal! Do you REALLY think he was trying to make a shot? Give your fellow players a break. Are you that desperate to win that you would stroke him for that?

I have a quick question ....if someone could answer I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm new (playing for about 6 weeks) and have played in two tournaments. I've read the rules am I'm sure I understand them, but.....I want to know etiquette persay.
1-If you've thrown a drive and have then placed a marker where your disc lands; can you run up to that marker for a second throw or must you place your foot behind the marker and throw from there? 2-Both players in my group each picked up their discs (within a couple feet of the basket) and putted that disc without placing a marker. One of which didn't even throw the disc in, just reached over and tapped the chains with the disc. I believe those are infractions, BUT when "should" you say something? Being new, I don't want the rep of being a "rules [censored]", so what should I have done? It wasn't the difference in me winning or losing the tourney, just seeking advice.....

Seriously?

For #1 - Yes you can run up, so long as when you release, your supporting point is within 30cm of the mark and on the line of play.
For #2 - What the players did is definitely against the rules. the best way to handle it is to gently let them know that correctly following the rule requires them to a) either use the disc AS the marker and putt with another, or b) to mark the disc. AND that to complete the hole you must release the disc into the basket. One good way to broach something like this in AM groups is to say something like "Hey guys - in a casual round that stuff is fine, but in tournament play you need to follow the rules more closely."

Oh and being that you are new - never be afraid to be the guy who follows the rules. Learn them, embrace them, follow them, and encourage others to do the same. No one should have to put up with players who don't follow the rules in tournament play. Speaking up doesn't make you the bad guy - EVER!!

For #1 - Yes you can run up, so long as when you release, your supporting point is within 30cm of the mark and on the line of play.
For #2 - What the players did is definitely against the rules. the best way to handle it is to gently let them know that correctly following the rule requires them to a) either use the disc AS the marker and putt with another, or b) to mark the disc. AND that to complete the hole you must release the disc into the basket. One good way to broach something like this in AM groups is to say something like "Hey guys - in a casual round that stuff is fine, but in tournament play you need to follow the rules more closely."



Oh and being that you are new - never be afraid to be the guy who follows the rules. Learn them, embrace them, follow them, and encourage others to do the same. No one should have to put up with players who don't follow the rules in tournament play. Speaking up doesn't make you the bad guy - EVER!!



Also being new, read the rule book for yourself. You will find that a large portion of what you are told by others on the course is pure B.S.