Ok i did a rollor and it got near a side walk and behind some trees.And a jogger sees it and picks it up and moves it 10 feet back That made me have a wide open 30 footer.

What do you do.Do you move it back where it was or do you leave it were it is(with out a stroke)?

What does 803.7B on Interference say?

Were is that at?

The link that says RULES at the top of this page: www.pdga.com/rules/index.php (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php)

Thanks chuck

Did you find the answer Dalton?

Put it back as close to the area where it originally landed as possible????

Did you find the answer Dalton?



yup :D:D

Can you share it with us please?

I was hoping the jogger would have brought it all the way back so you could re-tee again...

You did call WOLF!!!!

Can you share it with us please?



It plays where it was last dropped.

I played in Houston at McGregeor Park and this kid picked up my disc and put it by the basket. I had to play it as it was and I got my birdie!

Can you share it with us please?



It plays where it was last dropped.

I played in Houston at McGregeor Park and this kid picked up my disc and put it by the basket. I had to play it as it was and I got my birdie!



Wrong.

803.07.B. If a disc at rest on the playing surface or supported by the target is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official.


It was at rest. The kid picked it up and moved it. Your playing group should have determined the place where it was at rest and moved it back to that position.

Apparently you didn't read nor play by the rules then.

I played it both ways and turned it in. The TD oked it.

I will have to look this one up

Uh-Oh!

Dalton, since you read the rule would you please post what Daniel Temple and the Houston TD did wrong?

Also, Dalton would you please tell us how you played the shot that prompted this thread? Did you play it from where the jogger placed the disc or did you place the disc back where the group decided it was originally?

(803.07B)B. If a disc at rest on the playing surface or supported by the target is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official.

first one was wrong

For what it is worth I did play it both ways and got a birdie on both shots.

Therefore Chuck I did play by the rules.

just didn't know them very well and had to throw both of them. I love experiences like these because I seem to learn the best in this situation. Thanks for always knowing the answers cause someone has to,

Can you share it with us please?



It plays where it was last dropped.

I played in Houston at McGregeor Park and this kid picked up my disc and put it by the basket. I had to play it as it was and I got my birdie!



failed to mention both shots because I didn't recall playing both until I realized I was wrong. =)

For what it is worth I did play it both ways and got a birdie on both shots.

Therefore Chuck I did play by the rules.



Taking a provisional should only be used when the rule doesn't clearly state what should be done or a judgment such as where the OB line is located needs to be made. I will be lobbying for the next rulebook revision to apply a 2-shot penalty to all players in a group if not one of them is carrying a rulebook when a ruling is asked for that's right in the book. We are a self-officiated sport without officials making calls during play so the least players can do is carry a rulebook.

Will that have to include the Competition Manual and a printout of the Q and A? :)

Provisionals get used in any situation that there is a dispute. Even when the rules are clear. The group agrees to "play a provisional" and let the TD decide. No hard feelings on the card and play progresses.

I like that rule.

Will that have to include the Competition Manual and a printout of the Q and A?


That issue is being addressed. More on that before 2009.


Provisionals get used in any situation that there is a dispute. Even when the rules are clear.


I would agree if the players actually were referring to a rulebook and couldn't figure it out. If not then, penalty.

I like the whole rulebook thing because people should atleast carry one around. Unfortunatley I didn't have mine on me an no one else did either. I have always carried one around but I am only human so I forget when I am traveling sometimes.

Hey Jersey man! I want to play the Jersey Jam but I will be taking the train from DC to New Brunswick. Is there any way I can get someone to pick me up at the train station? Is there a way to get a cab ride and how far would it be?

Thanks

IMO a provisional shot should only be allowed when a player is told to take a shot that he doesn't think he should be making. Kind of like under protest.

In the case here. If the player thought he should play it where it was before being hoisted (A) and the card thought they should play it from the location where the spectator dropped it(B). The provisional series would be from B. The later ruling would be that the player was correct and the provisional series would not be counted.

Now if the player thought that he should play it from B and declared A as his provisional shot, he would count all of the throws from B, add +2 for playing from the wrong lie, (and add throws from A as practice throws?). The last bit I'm not sure I can justify. I can see this easily being either Score=A+B or A+B+2 or B+2. I haven't thought it through completely.

You can't stroke an entire card for not carrying a rule book. If we get to that point, then count me out. Common sense is to have a rule book, so you don't cost yourself strokes, but you can not add strokes because you refruse to carry a book. What if you don't speak the english, or know how to read, you want to penalize the players?

As for provisionals, TAKE THEM, USE THEM, and LEARN FROM THEM, they are the best thing, they should not be a situation where the people are "punished" but it should be a clarification, or a time saver.

Competition manual, and Q&A for each event should be mando, if you choose not to carry one, you are an idiot. But remember a TD can make rules that may not otherwise apply with permission from the PDGA, so even then, what you read in a manual, may not be the case in the event.....

You can't stroke an entire card for not carrying a rule book. If we get to that point, then count me out. Common sense is to have a rule book, so you don't cost yourself strokes, but you can not add strokes because you refruse to carry a book.


Everywhere in the rulebook it has the players making the rulings. That's the way our sport is set up. It's surprising that a penalty for not carrying a rulebook in a self-officiated sport hasn't already been in there long ago. You must carry the piece of paper called a scorecard and fill it out. It's not acceptable to recite your total score to the TD from memory at the end of the round. Why would we expect players to know all of the rules from memory which is more complex than remembering your scores? Not even saying each player should carry a rulebook but at least one player in the group for phase one, just like only one scorecard is needed.

its been my experience that having a rulebook frequently makes things a lot slower than not having one. when we dont have one we need to decide or go straight to a provisional. we move on in less than a minute. with the rulebook you have to look it up, look thru all the other rules that the card says might also apply and get into zemantic arguments about what it all means.

far easier to play on and let the TD make a ruling at the end. a better penalty would be one stroke for carrying the book, not for being without one :)

More people carrying books when it matters will reduce the need for provisionals and arguments. Essentially we support player ignorance and lack of responsibility by not requiring the books and relying on TDs. No wonder we have reluctance with calling foot faults for example. Not carrying the rulebook is just one less need for players to take responsibility. I know some have suggested that passing the Officials test would be something that should be required to become a pro if we can automate the testing process. This is part of that overall idea of more player knowledge and responsibility.

Uh-Oh!

Dalton, since you read the rule would you please post what Daniel Temple and the Houston TD did wrong?

Also, Dalton would you please tell us how you played the shot that prompted this thread? Did you play it from where the jogger placed the disc or did you place the disc back where the group decided it was originally?




We moved it back to were it was.

i could not agree more. there is a general sense that the rules are situational. this general sense must be thwarted, and that can only happen if it is supported strongly from the top!

IMO a provisional shot should only be allowed when a player is told to take a shot that he doesn't think he should be making. Kind of like under protest.



803.01.c clearly provides for a provisional to be used to speed up play in the event of a possible lost disc (among other things). I think this is a good thing.

I didn't think it was all about the speed of a round. If you need a ruleing the card as a whole should stand aside and let others play though and find a official or the Td to make a right ruling, not take a provisional. There are rules for a reason. You don't just make up you own rules as a group on a card, thats not how it is done. It's ok to wait ten minutes for the right ruling.

Dalton,

I throw a roller on a hole paralleling a swiftly moving creek. The disc rolls for miles, stands up, turns over, and right before it falls on to it's top it slides into the creek. It is now upside down and floating. The water current takes the disc downstream 200 feet and beaches it so that half of the disc is in the water and the other half is on land.......which incidentally is only a few feet from the basket. Where should i mark my lie?

IMO a provisional shot should only be allowed when a player is told to take a shot that he doesn't think he should be making. Kind of like under protest.



803.01.c clearly provides for a provisional to be used to speed up play in the event of a possible lost disc (among other things). I think this is a good thing.



I'm aware of 803.01.c, but generally taking a provisional to speed up play for a lost disc is not a good idea. First find it. If you can't find it after 3 minutes, now you have a whole card full of spotters for your second shot. If you take the provisional right away, they're still back on the tee. I'd like to see the provisional rule tightened up.

Dalton,

I throw a roller on a hole paralleling a swiftly moving creek. The disc rolls for miles, stands up, turns over, and right before it falls on to it's top it slides into the creek. It is now upside down and floating. The water current takes the disc downstream 200 feet and beaches it so that half of the disc is in the water and the other half is on land.......which incidentally is only a few feet from the basket. Where should i mark my lie?


803.03F:

A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water.

I know that and you know that but did Dalton know that? I bet a lot of players don't know that once a disc is floating downstream that it's considered "at rest"...another oxymoron in our beloved rulebook. :D

Considering his "knowledge" of the rest of the rulebook, I doubt it. :DOf course, in your example if nobody explicitly saw the disc floating, the thrower could argue that it could've been skipping (or rolling on water in a Christ-like manner) the whole way & demand the lie near the basket.

"Beloved" - ROFLMFAO

ok, first of all, Chuck getting Dalton to read, freakin hilarious :D

2nd, what if we did not or could not see Dalton's lie when the runner picked it up, lets say we did not see the runner had the disc until he came running around the corner. what would we/should we have done then?

Ask the runner where he found it.

If nobody saw anything then you would have to play it from where you found it when you walked up to it.

Dalton,

I throw a roller on a hole paralleling a swiftly moving creek. The disc rolls for miles, stands up, turns over, and right before it falls on to it's top it slides into the creek. It is now upside down and floating. The water current takes the disc downstream 200 feet and beaches it so that half of the disc is in the water and the other half is on land.......which incidentally is only a few feet from the basket. Where should i mark my lie?




I would ask the people on my card.Because I wouldnt know what to do.But now i know.

LOL. Love your honesty. It's printed right there in our beloved rule book. :D

LOL. Love your honesty. It's printed right there in our beloved rule book. :D




:D:D:D

LOL. Love your honesty. It's printed right there in our beloved rule book. :D



Dalton doesnt READ!!!!!! do you D? have you ever read the rule book?

Ask the runner where he found it.

If nobody saw anything then you would have to play it from where you found it when you walked up to it.



so ask the runner to put it back? if he just tosses it back on the grass and keeps running then play from there since there is no other way to approximate where it landed originally?

Ok i did a rollor and it got near a side walk and behind some trees.And a jogger sees it and picks it up and moves it 10 feet back That made me have a wide open 30 footer.

What do you do.Do you move it back where it was or do you leave it were it is(with out a stroke)?



the whole point of this question is that we were playing WOLF, it was my hole i picked Dalton for the small team, he had the closest drive but it landed with a tree between his lie and the basket. After 35 people finished screaming at the poor runner he just dropped it and all of the sudden we had a clear 40ft putt :D

i was all about playing it where the runner dropped it :D

unlucky for us we had one sandalled board member on the big team who immediatly squashed our small dreams for the benifit of his big team, then said board member steps up and cans a 100ft upshot and i lose my hole :(

Can you share it with us please?



It plays where it was last dropped.

I played in Houston at McGregeor Park and this kid picked up my disc and put it by the basket. I had to play it as it was and I got my birdie!



Wrong.

803.07.B. If a disc at rest on the playing surface or supported by the target is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official.


It was at rest. The kid picked it up and moved it. Your playing group should have determined the place where it was at rest and moved it back to that position.



THAT'S what I said - "Put it back as close to the area where it originally landed as possible????"

So...if some random kid caught my disc out of the air, ran it to the basket and dropped it in...would it be an ace. Technically the disc never landed, so how could you approximate a lie? And no, I didn't pay the kid to do it.

Nope. 803.01A:

A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. Alternatively, for intentional interference only, the thrower has the option of taking a re-throw.

Gotcher, I can't wait any longer. Where's your "Ask Dalton the Rules" question/scenario?

ah, so sweet to relive that glorious moment!



the whole point of this question is that we were playing WOLF, it was my hole i picked Dalton for the small team, he had the closest drive but it landed with a tree between his lie and the basket. After 35 people finished screaming at the poor runner he just dropped it and all of the sudden we had a clear 40ft putt

i was all about playing it where the runner dropped it

unlucky for us we had one sandalled board member on the big team who immediatly squashed our small dreams for the benifit of his big team, then said board member steps up and cans a 100ft upshot and i lose my hole


thanks, Daveed Fa'h Teeeg

oh, but it wasnt a 100 foot upshot. thats a slight exaggeration. it was more like an 80 foot putt. and i called it in before i putted. just trying to keep the pack movin ya know

lol. :D:D:D

here's Stella's scenario...

so this dude, we'll call him Baron Marshall for hypothetical reasoning :D, throws his drive over the top of OB on a pro par 4 dogleg because he has an arm like a cannon. Well, needless to say, there was no spotter. The shot was awesome and Baron, as well as the card he is playing on, knows it should be long and in the middle of the fairway in great position for an approximate 100 foot upshot. When the group makes its way around the dogleg the disc is sitting in the basket. The group knows there is no way the disc made it there during the throw as it was at minimal 100 feet short and not far enough angle wise up the dogleg to even get close to holing out. There are people around but no one says they saw/moved anything. You dont even have a good idea where the disc would have ended up but could MAYBE approximate.

what do you do?

I know Baron is going to take the Ace. prove Baron wrong/right with reasoning.

Ace. If you didn't see it land, and the next place you found it was in the basket, there is no reason to believe his lie should be anywhere but the basket.

Gotcher, I can't wait any longer. Where's your "Ask Dalton the Rules" question/scenario?



Sorry for the delay Hero.....I need to take a couple of photographs to include with my question/scenario. In the interim, here's a question for Dalton:

During a PDGA sanctioned event, is it legal to throw a disc with the manufacturer's sticker intact on the bottom side of the disc?

This should be an interesting answer.

I dont really know this,But i think it is.
"ASK CHUCK"