With gas prices making it more expensive to travel, does it make more sense for TDs to increase or decrease entry fees to offset gas prices? It would seem obvious that lowering the entry fees would attempt to keep the overall cost the same or reduce the increase somewhat.

However, maybe players want the chance to recoup their travel expenses so raising the entry fees makes more sense to keep the risk/reward economics in proportion? Perhaps it depends whether playing for cash or merch? A key factor would be with whether an event draws more local players versus those from farther away. What do you think? I think TDs will want to know as they plan for what appears to be permanently higher gas prices.

Then entry fee issue is very simple.

Better players in the division want higher ones, lower players in the division want lower ones.

No matter the status of the economy, generally this is the way things go.

No fluctuation.

Event sponsorship is the key to creating a more appealing payout. Every other sport doesn't solely rely on entry fees for payout, and for the most part, neither do we, we just need to find a way to make it easier for TDs to raise sponsorship short of doing all the legwork for them.

Saying it is not the same as doing it, obviously, and I will admit I am not a pavement pounder for sponsorship. There are some extremely awesome forces for fund raising that could be tapped to help show others the way to increasing their event stature and benefiting players and the PDGA and disc golf all at the same time.

Matt

Most of us are tired of playing for each other's money. I want to play for some of Buick's or Mercedes <font color="green"> cash flow! </font>

I lowered the prices of all my divisions by $5 to offset gas and the struggling Michigan ecomony.

My experience suggests that lower division am players want the same entry fees as higher division am players, and higher division am players would like to pay a little less. We've exploded the size of our lower divisions by charging them the same as advanced and giving them the same tournament value as advanced and charging both a reasonable entry fee.

We had 55 Rec players at IOS #3. Last year we had 55 in Rec but that was Am 3 and Am 4 combined last year on the TD report.

When you lower your entry fees for am players, your costs take a bigger percentage bite out of their tournament value. Good value attracts players.

The other thing is, travel costs are really a false issue. Most players travel less than 50 miles to a tournament. Players who travel an hour think they've gone a long way. If you and a buddy travel 50 miles to a tournament it is $8 each for gas? If $8 is too much the two of you need to get another friend in the car is all.

not sure what math you are doing, me and a friend went to a tournament 2.5 hours away and it was more than $90 in gas total. That was getting 20-22 mpg. That's a significant chunk of change.

50 miles * 2 = 100 miles
100 miles / 25 mpg = 4 gallons
4 gallons * $4/gallon / 2 people = $8/person.

What math were you doing?

around here, an hour is 70 miles... Who's your driving partner, Miss Daisy? :)

2.5 * 70 = 175 * 2 = 350 mil trip.
350 miles / 22mpg = 15.91
15.91 * $4.00 = $63.63

: ) :

I think entry fees for most tournaments are fine the way they are. What attracts players IMO depends on how deep and generous payouts are. Granted, I'm speaking as an Am. I've been to tournaments where I placed middle of the road and still came out with more than what I paid for, and I've played in tournaments where I finished in the Top 5 and my prize was a single disc. Merchandise may not be cash, but it can become cash if you sell it, or trade it for stuff you do want instead. If I can come out with equal or greater than I feel I've profited.

I'm all for lower fees, and -- hopefully -- higher sponsorship. I play for the sheer love of playing, of comraderie, of competition, etc... I'm moving to pro right now, and the added costs of some pro tournaments are going to make it prohibitively hard to attend.

For instance, the Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open A-Tier next weekend is ~4.5 hours away -- for a friend and I to go would probably be 600 miles total round trip -- so at 25 mpg, that's 24gals, or ~$50 apiece in gas. The $50 difference between playing Pro ($111) and Am $61) is huge -- that's the whole cost of getting there. And my odds of cashing in pro aren't that good -- especially at an A-tier. So I'm looking at being out $50 for gas, $111 for the tourney, plus at least another $50 or so to split a cheap hotel for two nights. So more than $200+food for the weekend, and I'm not likely to win anything playing pro. As an advanced player, it would cost me ~$150, and I'd be likely to win most of that back as plastic.

The system as it is -- especially with gas prices -- makes it hard for people to make the transition from devoted Am to low-level pro. As an Am, it is a lot easier to afford to travel to tournaments and I will usually bring something back. By making the move to Pro, I'm financially consigning myself to playing only local tournaments -- where gas is cheaper, lodging is free, and (hopefully) entry fees aren't as high -- otherwise, I can't afford my hobby.

In a sense, the current fee structure and culture penalizes people who are in the 950-970 range, who are encouraged (heckled) to move to pro, but who realize that moving to pro will radically affect their personal economics of playing the game. So I'm moving up to pro, but unless I get ~30-40 points better, I'll have to curtail my out-of-area travel and stick to local tourneys in able to afford my disc golf hobby.

I think what players want and will ultimately respond to is similar to what several Texas TDs are doing:

More local one-day events.

I think what players want and will ultimately respond to is similar to what several Texas TDs are doing:

More local one-day events.



I completely agree! I think more clubs need to host one days because you will definitely draw out more people because its cheaper for both the club and the players. No need at all driving back and forth and getting a hotel room either. I wish we did that in BG but we just seem to prefer our four 2-day tourneys instead.

Last summer a player asked me why I didn't travel more and play more tournaments. I told him it was purely entry fees and basic budget reasons. At $50 to $100 per event that's $150 to $300+ per month on entry fees alone if you play 3 of the 4 weekend each month.Add travel expenses to that and you are looking at $250 to $500+ per month on disc golf events. I play this game to have fun. Not worry if i'm going to be able to make my money back to pay bills. Please lower your entry fees TD's.



Split day events are great btw. Lower the entry fee. Give players optoins of what days they can play.

UW-Parkside, Kenosha, WI
( 181 Players)

April 19, 2008-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7844
April 20, 2008-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7876

Madison Meadows Park, Lombard, IL
( 217 Players)

May 31, 2008-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7898
June 1, 2008-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7897

Lippold Park, Crystal Lake, IL
( 179 Players)

June 21, 2008-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7940
June 22, 2008-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7939



UW-Parkside, Kenosha, WI
(172 Players)
April 21, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=6600
April 22, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=6601

Madison Meadows Park, Lombard, IL
(165 Players)
May 19, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=6603
May 20, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=6605

Lippold Park, Crystal Lake, IL
(186 Players)
June 23, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=6606
June 24, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=6608

Anna Page Park, Rockford, IL
(171 Players)
July 7, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=6651
July 8, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=6653

Jericho Lake Park. Aurora, IL
(161 Players)
September 15, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=6613
September 16, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=6614

Fairfield Park, Round Lake, IL
(158 Players)
October 20, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=6615
October 21, 2007-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=6616




UW-Parkside, Kenosha, WI
(203 Players)
April 22, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5686
April 23, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5685

Madison Meadows Park, Lombard, IL
(202 Players)
May 20, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5698
May 21, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5697

Lippold Park, Crystal Lake, IL
(209 Players)
June 24, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5700
June 25, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5699

Anna Page Park, Rockford, IL
(224 Players)
July 29, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5687
July 30, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5688

Shady Oaks Park, Streamwood, IL
(163 Players)
August 12, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5690
August 13, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5689

Jericho Lake Park. Aurora, IL
(143 Players)
September 16, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5692
September 17, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5691

Fairfield Park, Round Lake, IL
(162 Players)
October 14, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5694
October 15, 2006-&gt; http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5693

I'd like to see fees come down.

A couple of weeks ago I paid $50 for a one day B-Tier. I have to say that if fees are going to stay like that I won't be playing many tournaments.

I have to figure that most people playing ADV aren't doing it for the plastic. I mean seriously who wants to add to those boxes under the bed and in the closet?
(The payout thing pisses me off...but that's a whole other topic)

Personally, I play tournaments to compete, travel, meet new people, and play new courses.

I like the idea of trophy only. In fact, I'd play pro more often and "dontate" if the fees there weren't so much.

Yes. Much more trophy only option would induce me to play more tournaments again.

Seems like almost nobody (at least nobody in Texas) is offering the "trophy only" option. Why not, TDs?

Brett and Jon run some of the best cheap tournaments I've ever seen. $28 to play advanced for two rounds of 21 or 22 holes. $45 to play pro. $15 for trophy-only and you get a $15 player pack with that. Those guys rock. ;)

Brett and Jon run some of the best cheap tournaments I've ever seen. $28 to play advanced for two rounds of 21 or 22 holes. $45 to play pro. $15 for trophy-only and you get a $15 player pack with that. Those guys rock. ;)



That sounds like an awesome way to work it. Simple and cheap for everyone. I'd like to see the pro fees come down a bit on that -- especially since they aren't having a players pack to worry about. But if trophy only is offered in the pro division, then that sounds perfect. It would be a consistent, easy decision to play pro for $15, and I think it would encourage a lot of borderline am/pros to moveup earlier since they could do so without taking a huge $$$ hit -- it would also help them become truly competitive sooner, since they'd be playing with more top level golfers.

This Illinois team seems to be one of the few who look upon running events in volume in a way that doesn't hurt them financially and provides fees that are attractive for participation. However, I'm not sure most TDs look upon their events in that fashion. It's only when you run several events a year that you look for optimizations like this.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason the PDGA can't just mandate that TDs offer a "trophy only" option? Seems to me that it makes some level of financial sense for all parties involved, if players still want to pay the PDGA and (as long as they don't win the trophy) still put a few dollars in the pot for others... whats the problem?

I've never run a tournament, so I don't know exactly how this affects the TDs... and honestly I don't even pay all my own fees (I'm 17 year old) but it seems like the PDGA could rather painlessly universalize the option of trophy only by simply explaining it to the TDs and *requiring* them to *offer* it.

On a second note... to both the PDGA and TDs... could we maybe stop going crazy with the players pack? I respect that you are trying to provide players with a greater value. So if you must, a disc or a t-shirt would be lovely, but after that could you just lower the entry fee, and let me buy the other extras IF I EVEN WANT IT...?

*Edit: I should add that, as an exception, it is great to see some TDs getting the players pack donated from sponsors, vendors, manufacturers, etc. This is probably the only type of players pack I feel really really good about.

Thanks to every TD out there who is trying to help this game be not just fun, but affordable, for everyone.

I ran an event where the entry fee for every player in every division was $25. Every player in every division got their choice of a tournament stamped disc (Pro and Star, no DX) and added $1,500 cash to the Pro division and participation dropped to half of the previous year. Go figure.

but you also made it a two day instead of a one day - that was the deciding factor for me. I loved everything else about the event concept but needing a hotel room for the weekend made it a no-go :(. If there was a second course in the mix, the hotel may have gotten my money after all, but that was too many rounds in a row on that so-so course (with the best teesigns in all of disc golf, I should add)

I don't think the entry fee change made a big difference in that tournament. I think there were too many other factors involved to blame it on the fee :)

Trophy-only complicates every aspect of the tournament from registration to calculating payouts to giving out prizes. It would be a mistake to require every TD to deal with these complications. Some are fully engaged as it is. Not that many players choose this option when it is offered.

i agree with bruce- trophy only has not drawn a great response when we have offered it (which we have for a number of years)- this may be partially due to the fact that our entry fees are reasonable to begin with.

i guess that makes sense... i hadn't thought about how it might complicate the math...

I'm not sure why it doesn't appeal to more people, I guess I'm in the minority. anyhow, I for one would play it everytime it were offered. If I get any more plastic I'll never throw, shelves are going to start collapsing.

Thanks for the responses.

*edit: one more concept I wonder about. How much of a nightmare would it be to offer vouchers for future entry fees as a payout option for Ams. Perhaps not a winner for a single event type tournament... but in the case of a club tournament or some kind of series, why not just ask the AM if they would rather put their $20 in funny money towards their entry next weekend?

Perhaps that is yet another idea that would simply be too much to manage.

That is a problem with the accounting as well. $20 in funny money is not the same to the TD as $20 in real money. They would be losing money in the long run.

The high entry fees for PDGA sanctioned events is one of the reasons I will not be renewing my membership next year.

Old Man in Peoria used to do that. But they ran such thin tournaments, they could afford to. I tell my players, we gotta pay the PDGA, the park, Innova and Discraft with real money, so we gotta collect real money for registration.

The bottom line is total costs, and the entry fee is not the only variable. A big one for me is lodging. Nowadays a very important factor is whether I can camp nearby at a campsite or in someone's back yard.

Last weekend I drove over 300 miles to the Montrose Open because they had free camping at the site of the course. I wouldn't have considered it otherwise.

I tell my players, we gotta pay the PDGA, the park, Innova and Discraft with real money, so we gotta collect real money for registration.



...but the people who provide the real money are the ones who don't get it back. Maybe the PDGA could start accepting funny money per event, per player .....that would show support for the system they created, right?

Can we form a committee? Maybe create a fund of some sort and pay people who get the grants in funny money? Now we're talking consistency.

Oh, and definitely pay the numerous charities we donate to in funny money, for sure. Poor/sick/challenged/whatever people need plastic, too.

The high entry fees for PDGA sanctioned events is one of the reasons I will not be renewing my membership next year.



<font color="green"> WELCOME!!!</font>

The high entry fees for PDGA sanctioned events is one of the reasons I will not be renewing my membership next year.


The PDGA has little to do with entry fees other than helping keep them LOWER than they might be otherwise. TDs set the prices and can go as low as they wish.

Are you suggesting that if VA States (for instance) decided to sanction next year that its entry fee would go down? Hogwash!

At the PFDO last weekend, the TD cited the PDGA as a sponsor of the event. That sounds like the PDGA IS accepting funny money for its fees.

So if they charge seven bucks (?) per player for an A-tier and make around a grand for nearly a full field, then they could sponsor the event and give the TD back the $1000 as sponsorship money. The perfect system of funny money!

Are you suggesting that if VA States (for instance) decided to sanction next year that its entry fee would go down? Hogwash!


Why would it have to go up? If the entry fee is already higher than the PDGA guidelines for the tier you would want to sanction at, the fee would actually need to go down to get sanctioned. The original point is that the TD can charge what they think is appropriate for the local market. If that is higher than the PDGA guidelines, it has to come down if they want to sanction at that level.

So if they charge seven bucks (?) per player for an A-tier


$4

After reading through the previous posts, it seems to me that everyone seems to be missing the big picture. What other sport can you go out and spend a few bucks buying equipment and basically play for the rest of your life for FREE???

What is not free is the design, set up and installation of these courses. Numerous individuals, clubs and supporters struggle to collect money to have these courses installed and maintained. I can only speak for the club I represent, but if we choose to run a tournament, then every last penny we make goes into making disc golf in our area better. We want to add more baskets, we want tee signs, we want concrete tee pads. When a person pays an entry fee to one of our tournaments, they can be guaranteed that, even if they don't win one disc, that the next time they return to our area or that particular course, it will be in better condition.

It's foolish to say that people want a return on their money. The return on their money is that they can basically go anywhere they want in the U.S. and find a disc golf course to play (99% of the time free), find people who enjoy the sport as much as they do, and find clubs and tournaments who are trying to better our sport.

The next time you doubt whether your entry fee is worth it, imagine if all the parks in your area got pulled due to a lack of funds, then what would you do?

Assume that States is run on a break-even model (or even a break-even plus or minus x model), where entry fee is calculated based on firm estimates of costs &amp; number of entries. If it decided (unwisely) to sanction, costs would skyrocket (with sanctioning fee &amp; player fees) &amp; entry fee would have to do the same. No doubt about it.

Perhaps we should say base entry fee since that's what the PDGA guidelines refer to sans fees. It's totally a value judgment to sanction or not. A steadily increasing number of TDs feel the services provided for their players are sufficient to sanction. If you don't wish to provide them, that's simply a choice just like how much to charge for base entry fees and how much to spend on trophies.

I take it that by "breakeven" you mean out-of-pocket where you value your time and that of helpers at essentially zero? That's truly running at a loss then, which again is a choice.

Assume that States is run on a break-even model (or even a break-even plus or minus x model), where entry fee is calculated based on firm estimates of costs &amp; number of entries. If it decided (unwisely) to sanction, costs would skyrocket (with sanctioning fee &amp; player fees) &amp; entry fee would have to do the same. No doubt about it.



....or the expenses, probably payouts, reduced.

Thanx for making unreasonable assumptions about my example (and for attempting to deflect the discussion from your assertion that "The PDGA has little to do with entry fees other than helping keep them LOWER than they might be otherwise" to "A steadily increasing number of TDs feel the services provided for their players are sufficient to sanction"), but, while my time arguing with you has as much worth as that spent arguing with a wall, assume that all of my other time is, indeed, valued, including that I spend working on VA States.

What assumptions are unreasonable? If so, spell them out. I stated them as a question not an assumption. That would be very cool if you and your helpers actually made a decent amount for your efforts running an event. Hopefully more will do so to professionalize the sport just a little more.

The high entry fees for PDGA sanctioned events is one of the reasons I will not be renewing my membership next year.



<font color="green"> WELCOME!!!</font>



<font color="green">HOME GROWN'S </font> AlrighTT with Me!

My problem is not so much with the entry fee but the value of the tournament. Last year I could spend 25-30 dollars on a B tier tourney (AMII)that would be a 2 day 4 round tournament with a players pack. This year I pay the same or more for a one day C tier 2 round tourney with no players pack and I moved down. It used to be lower divisions equaled lower fees. Why are we not getting higher tiers and more disc golf to play?

B-tiers now require $500 added to pro purses. So events that were borderline B-tiers last year may have gone C-tier this year in your area where there's no added cash requirement. I believe the entry fee guidelines didn't change much between 2007 and 2008 so any changes in fees and number of rounds played are the result of TD choices.