I just played a tourney this wknd. and found out that over both days the TD was allowing players to correct their score cards AFTER they had been turned in. Needless to say I am [censored], and dont even know how many players were screwed over, esp. those that were within a stroke or two of each other for cashing. I dont think it affected me anyways because I played so poorly, but for the integrity of the game I want to report him for such an extreme violation of the rules. I assume the person who handles this is David Gentry so I'll email him, but for those who have been in this situation how would you go about getting the TD to abide by the rules??

I recently ran into the same situation. I informed the TD that players were upset and I was basically told to mind my own business and play my own game. It was my division, so I wanted to make sure it was handled correctly. As it turns out it wasn't.

As someone who plays events by the rules, and runs events by the rules it really upsets me when others blow off the rules. I was informed that this practice is very common.

Richard

Unfortunately the demand for TD and volunteers outweighs everything. Nothing will be done about a TD who breaks the rules or does something very disrespectful, etc in the current market. I thank every TD for everything they do. Let's face it, without a TD, we don't get to have fun playing! However, I really think the PDGA needs to look into removing the right for someone to run a tournament when it is necessary. I know for a fact this has been done at least once, but I can also say I know for a fact it was an extreme case and it was not easy to do so.

I'm by no means saying that should be the case for this. There are ways to handle certain things.

If I was in your situation I would have grabbed a rule book and showed the TD where it said the player should have been penalized. I know this past weekend I played a tournament with a rookie TD (who did a great job I must say) but there were a few things here and there that as a TD I saw. The main example was how ties were broken on the leader board (the rules say that hot round gets the tiebreaker and this wasn't the case on the board). I asked to speak with him for a second and respectfully pointed out the error. He fixed it, problem solved.

In your example, it the guy didn't listen or refused to do anything, then that is where the PDGA needs to step in. How do we ever expect to grow as a sport if the people running things aren't following the rules?

I think most of the problems with situations like this is simple, and my guess is typically comes down to one of three issues.

1. The process to become a TD is way to easy. This is because all you need to do is pass an open book test. I think there needs to be an additional way to be certified to run an event. Once again, this goes back to our sport's fear of losing volunteers, or any numbers at all.

2. Local events don't enforce the rules and bad habits form. Someone in a local league night shoots a 54, writes down 55, the TD changes it and gives him a 54 instead of 57. Even though its a little tournament, these rules need to be enforced so bad habits don't form. The alcohol and drug issue within PDGA play could also be attributed to local events not enforcing the policy and then in turn it teaches players bad habits.

3. The TD wants to be everyone's friend. This is a tough situation - I know I had to stroke my best friend in a event due to an incorrect scorecard. As a TD, you have to be fair and neutral. If you would stroke your worst enemy and you don't your best friend, then that is not fair to the players in the division of your best friend. Anyone who gets mad at a TD for enforcing the rules (or those who point out rule violations) needs to grow up and respect the rules of this game.

I think if we as a sport improve on these three things I mentioned, trivial problems like the one listed in the original post will not happen. It's a win win. The tournament is fairer and less people run off from the tournament (I would never play a tournament by that individual again in your situation until something was done - and I bet I wouldn't be the only one) and then better tournaments happen. This then increases the amount of tournament players and thus, improves the sport.

Some people are against the rules and think that they are merely a suggestion. However the rules make it fair for all. If I travel to a PDGA event 10 states away I know what rules will be played thanks to the universal rule book. Imagine if every state had their own rules how confusing that would be. Rules not only police the sport, they keep things fair and consistent. Shame on those who choose to break them - you are a part of the problem.

I have TDed in numerous events for the last 17 years and I've always had a practice of allowing Int. and Rec. players to review their cards if I catch a mistake. This is because when I was starting out as a TD the practice then was to accommodate and encourage beginners. This state of mind is not different in me today, and I do make a point of showing each person involved how it would have cost them strokes in a more competetive division. I would not do this in the Adv. or any pro divisions.
Back when I was learning, the accepted ruling was that the TD's decision was final. If you have a problem with that you should take on the responsibilities and host an event yourself. I guarantee you no matter how hard you work to hold a good event you will have your share of complainers. Being a TD has some special rewards, but it will also make you some "non-friends" if you know what I mean. Anyone willing to take on the responsibilities of running a tournament is to be commended and congratulated before any constuctive advice is handed out. Peace and Love

I have TDed in numerous events for the last 17 years and I've always had a practice of allowing Int. and Rec. players to review their cards if I catch a mistake. This is because when I was starting out as a TD the practice then was to accommodate and encourage beginners. This state of mind is not different in me today, and I do make a point of showing each person involved how it would have cost them strokes in a more competetive division. I would not do this in the Adv. or any pro divisions.
Back when I was learning, the accepted ruling was that the TD's decision was final. If you have a problem with that you should take on the responsibilities and host an event yourself. I guarantee you no matter how hard you work to hold a good event you will have your share of complainers. Being a TD has some special rewards, but it will also make you some "non-friends" if you know what I mean. Anyone willing to take on the responsibilities of running a tournament is to be commended and congratulated before any constuctive advice is handed out. Peace and Love



I am a TD though. I have hosted sanctioned, and non-sanctioned events several times. I know the presssure there is to be "everyones friend" but I know I cant let anyone bypass the rules (even my friends) because we all know in golf 1 stroke can make a huge difference. It's not fair, <font color="blue"> [offensive content removed] </font> and all disc golffers allowing such flagrant violations to occur. I think when tournaments, and TD's are being accused of major violations that can have an affect on the outcome then the PDGA should send a Marshall to that tournament next year to enforce the rules. May be expensive, but cost should never come before integrity, and if the PDGA doesnt investigate or at least do something to correct the errors of rogue TD's then why have this organization? Why have these rules if you're going to let anyone [censored] all over them?

If people want to complain about the rules, even if they're Rec or Novice, well, IMO they just shouldnt come back next year. I believe too much in this organization and our sports reputation, and I do not sit by like a spectator when these things happen. I was told by my friend at the tournament to not report this incident because he didnt want me to be known as "that guy" but we're trying to be accepted as a legitimate sport around the world, and if we let people do what they want in our sport then we dont deserve to be mainstream.

Quick note: I just did a check on the TD, and he's not even certified! What the hell PDGA?

Unfortunately the demand for TD and volunteers outweighs everything. Nothing will be done about a TD who breaks the rules or does something very disrespectful, etc in the current market.



Then shame on the PDGA, and all administration officials whoever they are. Our sport doesnt deserve to be recognized as legit if we continue to allow this practice to happen. If situations like this have been reported before, and nothing done then the PDGA has screwed all of us over in the name of the almighty dollar.

I've already committed myself to never playing this particular tournament again, but now I'm even considering not renewing my membership if these acts go unpunished. It's time the PDGA mans up and step up for whats right instead of trying to make a few extra bucks. The organization needs to put integrity and pride in our sport over money always!

Notice MTL is not actually speaking for the PDGA nor am I. The reality is that many players don't report infractions to the PDGA office. So there's an appearance nothing gets done when in fact action is taken regularly behind the scenes. Events are downgraded and TDs not sanctioned as a result of their apparent misdeeds THAT GET REPORTED. The PDGA staff will not recon this site for issues. They must receive a formal complaint in writing to initiate action.

Just like the claim that TDs won't call things on their buddies, other players also don't report TD issues to the PDGA office. If the infraction is severe enough the PDGA Disciplinary Committee will get involved.

Notice MTL is not actually speaking for the PDGA nor am I. The reality is that many players don't report infractions to the PDGA office. So there's an appearance nothing gets done when in fact action is taken regularly behind the scenes. Events are downgraded and TDs not sanctioned as a result of their apparent misdeeds THAT GET REPORTED. The PDGA staff will not recon this site for issues. They must receive a formal complaint in writing to initiate action.

Just like the claim that TDs won't call things on their buddies, other players also don't report TD issues to the PDGA office. If the infraction is severe enough the PDGA Disciplinary Committee will get involved.



Well how does one go about writing out a report?

All it takes is a simple email to [email protected] He'll contact you for more details if needed.

I fully agree with leniency for the Intermediate, Recreational, and Novice divisions. Obviously more leniency for the Rec/Nov divisions. Intermediate I tend to mean the players on a card should be lenient in the manner of: if a player is oblivious, inform him and make sure he knows a rule for the future. Obviously warnings are in place for this sort of thing, make use of them but don't be a dick about it.

For the rec and novice divisions I encourage even a pre-warning, and then if a person absentmindedly does something (lets say he picks up a disc under a basket and puts it in, you inform him of the rule... he starts following it but later on, mid-conversation with another player, he does it again... then give him his official warning). I wholeheartedly agree with giving the newest players a little string because we want them returning.

I'm pretty much in the same train of thought with scorekeeping, although I'd like to think Intermediate players would know by then that they need to be perfect with scorekeeping. Maybe in a C-Tier or Charity level event give them some leniency. B-Tier or higher you definitely need to be more strict with things like scorekeeping. And obviously with the higher divisions ALWAYS be strict, they know better (if not for scorekeeping rules Pete Middlecamp wouldn't have an Amateur National Championship, scorekeeping is huge).

2. Local events don't enforce the rules and bad habits form. Someone in a local league night shoots a 54, writes down 55, the TD changes it and gives him a 54 instead of 57. Even though its a little tournament, these rules need to be enforced so bad habits don't form. The alcohol and drug issue within PDGA play could also be attributed to local events not enforcing the policy and then in turn it teaches players bad habits.



The correct score would be 56, not 57. The two penalty strokes are added to the correct score, not the incorrect score.

Notice MTL is not actually speaking for the PDGA nor am I. The reality is that many players don't report infractions to the PDGA office. So there's an appearance nothing gets done when in fact action is taken regularly behind the scenes. Events are downgraded and TDs not sanctioned as a result of their apparent misdeeds THAT GET REPORTED. The PDGA staff will not recon this site for issues. They must receive a formal complaint in writing to initiate action.

Just like the claim that TDs won't call things on their buddies, other players also don't report TD issues to the PDGA office. If the infraction is severe enough the PDGA Disciplinary Committee will get involved.



A few comments.

1. I HAVE reported TD's to the PDGA - two incidents actually. Not only was NOTHING done, these people still run the same events today. Anyone who knows me or has followed the D-board for while knows which two events I am referring to. I am happy to say that one of these events the TD has learned thier lesson and the problems no longer exist. The other...well....

2. I am on the discipline commitee. In my year and half on the committee, not ONE complaint has been sent to us about a TD. This doesn't necesarily mean that they are not sent are way, it could mean that nothing worth sending our way has occured.

I'm 100% in support of anyone who wants to run an event but bad help is worse than no help at all, IMHO.

2. Local events don't enforce the rules and bad habits form. Someone in a local league night shoots a 54, writes down 55, the TD changes it and gives him a 54 instead of 57. Even though its a little tournament, these rules need to be enforced so bad habits don't form. The alcohol and drug issue within PDGA play could also be attributed to local events not enforcing the policy and then in turn it teaches players bad habits.



The correct score would be 56, not 57. The two penalty strokes are added to the correct score, not the incorrect score.



doh

*smacks self*

I knew that :D

Just a general comment. I have TD'd and helped TD for years. I never give a misadded card a break for any adult divisions. Sorry, it doesn't matter if they are Rec or Open, however, I always ask rec and intermediate players to check their scores carefully before turning in the card and explain what happens if they miss add their scores. The best thing for the intermediate and rec divisions is to push that they correctly add their scores.

With that said, I will add a card with the juniors before "accepting" the card in for final count.

I am an intermediate player, and an average one at that. I am not a TD and will probably never be one. Its not a matter of time or effort, just organization.

To my point:
I am glad that there are TDs out there who are willing to act as teachers to rec and novice players and divisions. One tough break like a bad score could turn a new player off to tourneys. At the same time, a guiding hand could bring you in a new player for life.

On the other hand, I would expect no breaks for myself. I have trouble with score cards on occasion and will make every attempt I can to get it looked at by several people before I turn it in. (See the organization comment above and "do the math.") It is especiallh hard for me at the end of the round when people are coming in and there is a lot of noise/activity. BUT the rules are there for a reason and should be used. I do feel that the lowest divisions should be a place to teach and nurture the sport. I'm not sure what the answer is between those two facts.

I am an intermediate player, and an average one at that. I am not a TD and will probably never be one. Its not a matter of time or effort, just organization.

To my point:
I am glad that there are TDs out there who are willing to act as teachers to rec and novice players and divisions. One tough break like a bad score could turn a new player off to tourneys. At the same time, a guiding hand could bring you in a new player for life.



So just to play the Devil's Advocate....

If said Rec/Novice player throws a disc into the water or OB do you advocate that they get a re-tee or re-shot without a stroke penalty?

In all seriousness, I am just wondering where people draw the line.

I am an intermediate player, and an average one at that. I am not a TD and will probably never be one. Its not a matter of time or effort, just organization.

To my point:
I am glad that there are TDs out there who are willing to act as teachers to rec and novice players and divisions. One tough break like a bad score could turn a new player off to tourneys. At the same time, a guiding hand could bring you in a new player for life.



So just to play the Devil's Advocate....

If said Rec/Novice player throws a disc into the water or OB do you advocate that they get a re-tee or re-shot without a stroke penalty?

In all seriousness, I am just wondering where people draw the line.



Great point.

Yeah, prolly not that. I kinda see that math is different than throwing. I guess that's the difference, but your point is well made. I do understand that there is a slippery slope to this whole thing. I can understand why it is good to say that rules are not optional. Necessary even.

2. Local events don't enforce the rules and bad habits form. Someone in a local league night shoots a 54, writes down 55, the TD changes it and gives him a 54 instead of 57. Even though its a little tournament, these rules need to be enforced so bad habits don't form. The alcohol and drug issue within PDGA play could also be attributed to local events not enforcing the policy and then in turn it teaches players bad habits.



The correct score would be 56, not 57. The two penalty strokes are added to the correct score, not the incorrect score.



doh

*smacks self*

I knew that :D



I know, just didn't want incorrect info spreading.

Good to point out!

Notice MTL is not actually speaking for the PDGA nor am I. The reality is that many players don't report infractions to the PDGA office. So there's an appearance nothing gets done when in fact action is taken regularly behind the scenes. Events are downgraded and TDs not sanctioned as a result of their apparent misdeeds THAT GET REPORTED. The PDGA staff will not recon this site for issues. They must receive a formal complaint in writing to initiate action.

Just like the claim that TDs won't call things on their buddies, other players also don't report TD issues to the PDGA office. If the infraction is severe enough the PDGA Disciplinary Committee will get involved.



Well how does one go about writing out a report?



You seem to be able to find your way to this message board and doing a fine job of writing here to vent your spleen. Maybe you should do a little more digging and find out how to do it properly. Maybe a call to the PDGA office with the simple question, "How do I report a possible rules infraction by a TD?" You've already been judge, jury, and executioner on this message board. How would you feel if it were you being accused?

I have TDed in numerous events for the last 17 years and I've always had a practice of allowing Int. and Rec. players to review their cards if I catch a mistake. This is because when I was starting out as a TD the practice then was to accommodate and encourage beginners. This state of mind is not different in me today, and I do make a point of showing each person involved how it would have cost them strokes in a more competetive division. I would not do this in the Adv. or any pro divisions.
Back when I was learning, the accepted ruling was that the TD's decision was final. If you have a problem with that you should take on the responsibilities and host an event yourself. I guarantee you no matter how hard you work to hold a good event you will have your share of complainers. Being a TD has some special rewards, but it will also make you some "non-friends" if you know what I mean. Anyone willing to take on the responsibilities of running a tournament is to be commended and congratulated before any constuctive advice is handed out. Peace and Love



Skip - While I agree with the sentiment of encouraging new players as much as possible, once a card is turned in, then it is "official" as determined by the player. Whatever skill-level the player is at division-wise shouldn't have any bearing whatever on the fact that they can't accomplish fairly simple addition.

Let me ask you: If you have a Novice/Recreational player that actually bothers to read and play by the rules of play and submits a correctly added scorecard, and a player that doesn't know the rules, and doesn't submit a correctly added scorecard yet they both end up with the same score at the end of the round, isn't that "punishing" the player who actually did everything right?

It seems more appropriate for this kind of leniency at leagues and unsanctioned minis, but IMO it should be the one thing that MOST distinguishes a PDGA-sanctioned event from casual play or non-sanctioned rounds.

I agree with the original poster in that this practice should not be allowed in a sanctioned tournament...there are other venues for "training" new players.

Notice MTL is not actually speaking for the PDGA nor am I. The reality is that many players don't report infractions to the PDGA office. So there's an appearance nothing gets done when in fact action is taken regularly behind the scenes. Events are downgraded and TDs not sanctioned as a result of their apparent misdeeds THAT GET REPORTED. The PDGA staff will not recon this site for issues. They must receive a formal complaint in writing to initiate action.

Just like the claim that TDs won't call things on their buddies, other players also don't report TD issues to the PDGA office. If the infraction is severe enough the PDGA Disciplinary Committee will get involved.



Well how does one go about writing out a report?



You seem to be able to find your way to this message board and doing a fine job of writing here to vent your spleen. Maybe you should do a little more digging and find out how to do it properly. Maybe a call to the PDGA office with the simple question, "How do I report a possible rules infraction by a TD?" You've already been judge, jury, and executioner on this message board. How would you feel if it were you being accused?



Well maybe because as a PDGA member I am allowed to talk about what I want on these boards so long as I abide by the rules because this is a serious issue that needs to be discussed so we can get the word out and tell other members that violations need to be reported.

Also, if someone were accusing me of something, well they can go ahead. If I did something wrong I am not afraid to own up to my mistakes and suffer the consequences. I dont care how they do it either, via internet, phone, or telegraph so good luck continuing to try and guilt trip me.

I'm a due paying member, and as one I will always see to it that the rules are enforced, and to get the word out that players need to take the initiative to uphold the rules and do so by any means necessary.

Dude, Common sense is the watchword. As a rule (pun intended) I play by them. Yesterday, I was in the group with a player who is about my age (50) who picked up his mini and tossed it about 10 feet to his bag. This was the first hole in the morning. The player was the brother of two guys who play tournaments. This guy really does not play them and was only registered because his brother was there and because the tournament was in his home town. He was a good guy. He was not competing for anything. He was going to be at or near DFL regardless of his division. He was courteous and understands the game. I made a conscious decision to say nothing. He didn't throw his mini or anything else the rest of the round other than his, many, shots. We all enjoyed the round. We actively discussed rules issues that affected the other players in the group during the round including whether a player could wave away a worm that was dangling from a tree in front of him as he lined up a putt. He did not and saved himself two strokes. I think I made the right decision at that time. If he was a young guy who is just starting to play tournaments I might have had that teaching moment. I normally point these things out in a non threatening manner. I think I made the right decision to let it pass at this time.

Dude, Common sense is the watchword. As a rule (pun intended) I play by them. Yesterday, I was in the group with a player who is about my age (50) who picked up his mini and tossed it about 10 feet to his bag. This was the first hole in the morning. The player was the brother of two guys who play tournaments. This guy really does not play them and was only registered because his brother was there and because the tournament was in his home town. He was a good guy. He was not competing for anything. He was going to be at or near DFL regardless of his division. He was courteous and understands the game. I made a conscious decision to say nothing. He didn't throw his mini or anything else the rest of the round other than his, many, shots. We all enjoyed the round. We actively discussed rules issues that affected the other players in the group during the round including whether a player could wave away a worm that was dangling from a tree in front of him as he lined up a putt. He did not and saved himself two strokes. I think I made the right decision at that time. If he was a young guy who is just starting to play tournaments I might have had that teaching moment. I normally point these things out in a non threatening manner. I think I made the right decision to let it pass at this time.



I can agree with you on that. While I am a firm believer in the rules I do know about being courteous to players, and when I see a rule violation I always tell the player what he did wrong, and that while I wont do anything the 1st time at least he'll know what he did and wont make the same mistake again. But this discussion was started about TD's who are willing and openly breaking the rules because they dont want to be the bad guys. I'm all about cutting some slack for younger and newer players, and teaching them the rules. However, I am completely against older people, esp. TD's who circumvent the rules to please everyone. If I break a rule I expect to be penalized even if it costs me. I will never argue the rule. I only ask that it be shown to me in the rule book first so everything can be clarified and we can move on to the next hole without argument.

I guess I'm an incurable romantic dinosaur. I still look upon this as friendly competition instead of what it is (?). I will be TDing one more time this year and after that I will leave it to all of you who think waving a worm out of the way or constuctive teaching of an uninformed enthusiastic beginner is intolerable irresponsible behavior.
I hope to see the good people of disc golf come down for the
VPO this year and I'll try not to offend anyone by pleasing all the people all the time like the rest of you do. :D;)

im a rec player and in my first pdga tournament i added my score wrong in the second round went from 2nd to 4th i learned my lesson. i still play tournaments but i take my cell phone and add my score to make sure it is right and some times i let rules slide like a foot fault on a putt or maybe not placing a mini when under the basket but other than that i try to let other players know if they are doing something wrong becuase i would want to be told so i can play by the rules because if there are no rules then why play competevly

as a TD and someone who has added many many scorecards....here is a piece of advice.

If you shoot something around 70 on an 18 hole course, don't count how many shots over 54 you are. Pretend everything is a par 4. Chances are if you are shooting near that number, you have most scores around 4.

Then, if you are even, you are 72. If you are +2, you are 74. This same can be said for women and rec players with 5's and 90.

You probably used that method for your scores on Highbridge Gold last summer...

Maybe you should do a little more digging and find out how to do it properly.



This is the whole problem. If everyone would bother to "find out how to do it properly" then you wouldn't have players turning in incorrect scorecards and TD's giving them extra chances to get it right.

You probably used that method for your scores on Highbridge Gold last summer...



One of the rounds I did. I think I shot -3 :D

Those occasional non 18 hole courses are darn tricky though.

So long as we have a system where the head umpire is also a stakeholder in the financial success or failure of the tournament or the series, we're going to have TDs who are soft on the harsher rules. I'm not aware of any other sport where the head umpire is directly concerned with the profitability of the event. Obviously that conflict of interest is not going to be conducive to a hard headed approach towards the rules.

Yesterday, I was in the group with a player who is about my age (50) who picked up his mini and tossed it about 10 feet to his bag.



Sorry to sidetrack but I've got to ask, what rule did that break?

Practice throw

2. Local events don't enforce the rules and bad habits form. Someone in a local league night shoots a 54, writes down 55, the TD changes it and gives him a 54 instead of 57. Even though its a little tournament, these rules need to be enforced so bad habits don't form. The alcohol and drug issue within PDGA play could also be attributed to local events not enforcing the policy and then in turn it teaches players bad habits.



The correct score would be 56, not 57. The two penalty strokes are added to the correct score, not the incorrect score.



Someone argued this point with me recently.

So I said, well let me change my card, I want to total it as a total score of 1. So you can add my total penalty strokes to that.

I win! Unless you shot a -2 total score..... :p

You should be well aware of the rule on this, along with your father. :o:o:D

Practice throw


Come now, do you really consider a mini a "disc" for the purpose of rules enforcement (other than the specific specs laid out for a mini)?

So long as we have a system where the head umpire is also a stakeholder in the financial success or failure of the tournament or the series, we're going to have TDs who are soft on the harsher rules. I'm not aware of any other sport where the head umpire is directly concerned with the profitability of the event. Obviously that conflict of interest is not going to be conducive to a hard headed approach towards the rules.



I just directed a 'B' tier over the weekend with 95 players and a waiting list. One player added his card incorrectly and was assessed strokes according to the rules. If we lose this competitor for a 'hard-headed' approach to the rules, so be it.

If you are a 'stakeholder' and your financial success or failure of the tournament or the series and profitability of the event is directly dependent on losing one or two competitors from rules enforcement, then you probably have bigger fish to fry and other more important issues to address.

Practice throw


Come now, do you really consider a mini a "disc" for the purpose of rules enforcement (other than the specific specs laid out for a mini)?



801.01
B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing, freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, throwing minis, and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player. Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone in danger of being struck by a disc is not a violation of courtesy.

Come now, do you really consider a mini a "disc" for the purpose of rules enforcement (other than the specific specs laid out for a mini)?


Yes, if you consider the reason for the Practice Throw rule in the first place which is to not allow players to test the wind effects before throwing a hole. Frankly, I'm not sure how much you could learn from a 3m throw with a mioni or regular disc. I would rather see the rule more narrowly defined to not allow throws more than 10m toward the general direction of the basket so players could feel comfortable tossing discs to their bags more than 2m or to another player when retrieved for them to speed play.

Practice throw


Come now, do you really consider a mini a "disc" for the purpose of rules enforcement (other than the specific specs laid out for a mini)?



801.01
B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing, freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, throwing minis, and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player. Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone in danger of being struck by a disc is not a violation of courtesy.



That just says it is a courtesy violation and not a practice throw. Plus a Mini is not classified as a disc. We already argued this about 3 or 4 years ago...

Practice throw


Come now, do you really consider a mini a "disc" for the purpose of rules enforcement (other than the specific specs laid out for a mini)?



801.01
B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing.



Not sure if anyone was throwing at the time, sounds like the guy just threw his up and was tossing back to his bag.


Yes, if you consider the reason for the Practice Throw rule in the first place which is to not allow players to test the wind effects before throwing a hole.



I usually pickup my marker AFTER I throw, so I'm not sure how a practice throw could apply.

Sorry for the derail Dude. But send me an email or IM so I know not to play in that TD's tourneys. There should be like a BBB for TD's where we can check on complaints filed against TD's and the results of the findings for or against the claim.

You could have extra minis in your posession and could toss them towards the basket to "test" the wind even though a 5 gram mini will behave radically compared to a 170g disc

Practice throw penalty occurs any time you throw after the round starts. And yes, a mini is counted as a disc for the purposes of practice throw enforcement since it's aerodynamic in the same way a regular disc could be used to test the wind. Not saying I agree with the rule but that's how it's been enforced as it stands.

Says who chuck? You? There isn't a rule saying that throwing a mini is a practice throw. According to the PDGA specs, a mini isn't a legal PDGA disc for throwing.

Where has throwing a mini counting as a practice throw been enforced? I have never heard of a TD bringing this issue up.

Practice throw penalty occurs any time you throw after the round starts. And yes, a mini is counted as a disc for the purposes of practice throw enforcement since it's aerodynamic in the same way a regular disc could be used to test the wind. Not saying I agree with the rule but that's how it's been enforced as it stands.


That is neither in the rule or in the Q&amp;A and therefore should not be enforced that way.

So long as we have a system where the head umpire is also a stakeholder in the financial success or failure of the tournament or the series, we're going to have TDs who are soft on the harsher rules. I'm not aware of any other sport where the head umpire is directly concerned with the profitability of the event. Obviously that conflict of interest is not going to be conducive to a hard headed approach towards the rules.



I just directed a 'B' tier over the weekend with 95 players and a waiting list. One player added his card incorrectly and was assessed strokes according to the rules. If we lose this competitor for a 'hard-headed' approach to the rules, so be it.

If you are a 'stakeholder' and your financial success or failure of the tournament or the series and profitability of the event is directly dependent on losing one or two competitors from rules enforcement, then you probably have bigger fish to fry and other more important issues to address.

We had 178 players at our C-tier. Every player is important to us. That's why we're kicking your asterisk on attendance. :D

Who you going to believe when it IS right in the rulebook? Practice Throw is defined as a "Disc" and is not limited to "Discs Used in play" which would exclude minis. A mini is defined as a disc in 802.02.

Who you going to believe when it IS right in the rulebook? Practice Throw is defined as a "Disc" and is not limited to "Discs Used in play" which would exclude minis. A mini is defined as a disc in 802.02.


Then why do they make a point of specifying mini marker discs? If I walk by a trash can and decide to throw my mini away are you gonna stroke me for a practice throw?

In 802.2 a mini marker disc is defined as a disc used for marking purposes only

Is the practice throw rule really about testing the wind? I'd think it's more about the chaos that would ensue without it---players missing a putt and throwing 2, 3, 4 more from the same spot to work out the problem. Etc.

I think most tossed minis fall into the world of "no harm, no foul".....other than when thrown in anger.....hence, I've never seen the discussion get to whether a mini is a "disc", or not.

Meanwhile, back at the incorrect scorecards....

I'm not a rules zealot but I was penalized by a TD friend when I was new to the game....and have seen juniors penalized....and would do so myself as TD. I wasn't bitter and learned my lesson; I've never turned in a wrong scorecard again. Many rec players and intermediates are not new to the game, just less skilled, and should know better. If they, or anyone else, can be casual about score totals, knowing there's nothing but a warning involved, the TDs would end up dealing with a lot more corrections.

It has to do with precision regarding how rules are written. Without a Q&amp;A to reinterpret whether a mini is intended to be a disc under the Practice Throw definition, the words as currently written would include minis under the general term "discs." And it makes sense considering at least one reason the Practice Throw rule was written which was wind testing. Harold has posted as such on this Board sometime back. Regarding throwing a mini in the trash, no penalty presuming it was less than a 2m drop in. :)

Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player�s lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie.


Why Not? It was of "any distance toward a target". It fits the qualifications under your interpretation.

The whole mini/practice throw question has present since at least 2002. What did I find? The same arguments that I see now...some people consider it a practice throw, some a courtesy violation if is a distraction, and others no penalty at all(unless it is a distraction)...

Considering throwing a mini as a practice throw would be dumb. You cannot learn anything by throwing a mini. A mini and a real disc would fly differently.

ok someone said something about a pdga appoved disc so here is a secnerio (i know a few people that have discs that are do not have pdga approved disc in their bag) they throw the disc to judge the wind but then throw their regular disc.

but since the first disc was not pdga approved it wouldnt count as a throw is what you were saying, i would count that as a practice throw becuase the disc is golf weight.

i know this sound stuipid but if you say only pdga approved disc count then im going to try and find non pdga approved disc to throw for practice and not get stroked

just think about it but i still concider a mini as a disc

i know this sound stuipid



you're right

Ummm... Just carrying a non-approved disc is a penalty.

801.2.E. A player who carries an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with 804.05 A (3).

Why Not? It was of "any distance toward a target". It fits the qualifications under your interpretation.


You didn't say you were aiming toward a target when you threw in the trash can. We're talking about what the rules say not whether someone would actually call it which of course is the problem with rules that may need more precise wording if they're not followed, or be eliminated.

Ummm... Just carrying a non-approved disc is a penalty.

801.2.E. A player who carries an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with 804.05 A (3).


Wow. I had no clue on that one. I carried a crappy deep dish promotional saucer a friend had dyed to look like my "one eye smiley" for good luck at BG Ams this year (it didn't bring me any ha). I had no idea that simply carrying it could have got me stroked, yikes. Could have happened very easily as well, I was repeatedly asked by cardmates seeing it peaking out of my putter pouch "That thing isn't legal, is it?"


-Chris.

We had 178 players at our C-tier. Every player is important to us. That's why we're kicking your asterisk on attendance. :D



Wow, Bruce. Congrats! :cool:

This only proves my point however. While every player is indeed important as you mentioned, your financial success or failure of the tournament or the series and profitability of the event is hardly dependent on losing one or two competitors from rules enforcement of incorrectly added scorecards.

Why Not? It was of "any distance toward a target". It fits the qualifications under your interpretation.


You didn't say you were aiming toward a target when you threw in the trash can. We're talking about what the rules say not whether someone would actually call it which of course is the problem with rules that may need more precise wording if they're not followed, or be eliminated.


There is nothing about aiming in the rule.
Any distance toward a target. The trash can is a target, whether I was aiming at it or not. The wording is precise.

That definition of target is imprecise. If a trash can is a target, then so is someone's bag, and a blade of grass, and a pebble on a path. Which then makes the caveat "toward a target" unnecessary. Targets are defined by 802.03. A trash can is not a target (thought it might meet the loose target standards we have today.)

Next tourney I'm going to get a bag of bagels and take them on the course with me and use them as markers. As far as I know, they meet the technical spec for a mini. After each hole I will pick up my "mini", rip it into shreds and feed it to the local wild life, being sure to throw each piece more than 2 meters just to see if anyone will realize that all rules that apply to disc also apply to minis and they could bust me for several infranctions such as disc modification, practice throws, throwing a broken disc etc. If I can, I will also try to throw them OB.

Silly, isn't it?

People are aware that the rules are on this site if you don't know them..

I am pretty certain that a bagel does not meet the specs.

A. Mini marker discs shall be used to mark a player�s lie as required by these rules. Mini marker discs must have a diameter of between 7 and 15 centimeters and a height not exceeding 3 centimeters.

EDIT: MAYBE a 1/2 of a cut up bagel but, it does say disc.

If he splits the bagel in half, it meets the requirement.

Not really. A bagel is not a disc now is it. It does not say "an object" with those dimensions. It says a mini marker disc.

I think a bialy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bialy) might work. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Right, mini pizzas then. Wait, I might have to eat those myself.

Or many pizzas! More for all of us!

This is just me but if I feel slighted by a TD I am going to go and speak to that TD directly first or forget about it. If I did something someone disliked I would hope that would come and talk to me first before going above my head. I had much rather be "that guy" that complains to the person responsible than "that guy" that goes above someone's head. IMHO.

The Louisville boys do a good job, I'm sure Eddie and Jeremy would discuss this with you in a private manner. Rules are rules, but no need to call them out like this. After going through the proper channels, with no accountability, then you go public if you feel the need at that time..........

it sounds like "the dude" is upset, but being on the receiving end of the bg am bashing this year, I appreciated the upset folks who emailed us and let us know what upset them, with recommendations and solutions on how to fix the problems.......

posting your anger on this forum just builds resent and barriers for personal relationships, which in my mind, is the most important aspect to disc golf.

we have to draw a line between a casual round and a tourney in regards to the end result.

nobody ends up in a tournament by accident. it is known by all that a tournament is a more rigid structure than a casual round. with that structure comes rules to insure fair play. it isn't up to the individual which rule they deem worthy of applying. your adherence to or neglect of a stroke-worthy rule might be affecting those behind or in front of you. that is why it is written down, so everyone involved knows what is expected.

give as much grace as you want during a casual round. when tournament saturday approaches it is time to enforce the rules.

side note: we need to change the perception that the person enforcing the rule is the phallus cranium. it is the person that expects leniency when a black and white rule is broken that should be called out.

Having read the lively discussion since I posted about the guy tossing his mini I feel confident that I made the right non-call. I understand the tension between the phallus cranium and the space cerebellum. I used my head.

This is just me but if I feel slighted by a TD I am going to go and speak to that TD directly first or forget about it. If I did something someone disliked I would hope that would come and talk to me first before going above my head. I had much rather be "that guy" that complains to the person responsible than "that guy" that goes above someone's head. IMHO.



But Robert,

This is the internet age. Where people are afraid of confrontation and providing such helpful direct feedback. Where simply presenting these thoughts to the TD via private message, e-mail, phone call, or face-to-face meeting out on the course is avoided at all costs.

Why bother, when you can simply trash the TD via online message boards?

Why bother, when you can simply trash the TD via online message boards?


We have to give you moderators something to do so you can feel important. ;)

The Louisville boys do a good job, I'm sure Eddie and Jeremy would discuss this with you in a private manner. Rules are rules, but no need to call them out like this. After going through the proper channels, with no accountability, then you go public if you feel the need at that time..........

it sounds like "the dude" is upset, but being on the receiving end of the bg am bashing this year, I appreciated the upset folks who emailed us and let us know what upset them, with recommendations and solutions on how to fix the problems.......

posting your anger on this forum just builds resent and barriers for personal relationships, which in my mind, is the most important aspect to disc golf.



Was not able to talk to the TD in person as he was busy, but was able to speak to one of the club officers and officials and he told me "out of our hands, nothing we can do about it now."

I personally dont care whether or not people resent me. But I feel this is an excellent means to get the message out there that we shouldnt let TD's break the rules. People need to know there are others out there dealing with the same situations, and this IMO builds confidence to confront the issues head on when need be.

Besides, people bitched about BG Ams, but I didnt see any post on here about how they shouldnt take their anger out on the boards.

I want to take a second to clarify one thing....back when I got started as a TD in the early 90s I was more lenient than I am today and it was accepted as a normal practice to encourage beginners. Today, though, I wouldn't be so easy on the Int. but I would still be more tolerant of teaching the Rec. player.
Another thing...I'm not one to encourage Chuck and his dominance of this board, but I want to say I like his attitude on tossing a disc to your bag or to another player to keep the pace of progress going forward. I totally agree with a need to ease up on some definitions of rules and realize the intended meaning of the rulings and not all the twists and turns we can put on them to ultimately be bad sports to gain an advantage. I know your response would be to tell me I'm full of it and rules are rules, but definitions vary, people, and we must focus on the important things and not try to penalize someone that swatted a worm or a spider hanging out of a tree. Some of you would say you should risk being bitten by said spider or getting a rash from the mucus of the worm. Get real. This is not the spirit of our game.
One last thing...it is my belief that mankind is closer to it's demise than it's beginning and when you consider what evolution has had to offer us, I don't believe it's too difficult to concieve that with the friendships and exciting and fun competition, disc golf is one of the highlights of man's existence. Enjoy it, have fun, and tell your competition you enjoy testing your game against theirs. Right now..it means everything.

I actually do agree with Chuck as well (cold shiver just went down my spine) about tossing the disc to a person, and the whole mini marker stuff. There are rules I'd like to see changed, but until they're changed the rules are the rules, and I'm not willingly going to break them just because I dont like them.

Not really. A bagel is not a disc now is it. It does not say "an object" with those dimensions. It says a mini marker disc.



Yes, a bagel is a disc. Just like a compact disc and an LP disc, it is round and has a hole in the middle. Chop it down so that it complies with the size specs and you have yourself a marker disc that doubles as an after-round snack. :eek:

I think the 5-second rule would have long passed by then.

I personally dont care whether or not people resent me.


this is obvious. great philosophy

Here's a good one: Last year at a Toboggan tourney we had a dude on our card and gave him the scorecard with only 3 holes to go. He did the scores right for two holes then brainfarted and asked us twice what we got for hole 15 and wrote the scores down twice - once in the right box and once in the sub-totals box. He did this on his own without mentioning to us he couldn't remember if he wrote the scores down the first time or not.

So we added our scorecard up correctly but failed to notice we added up 19 scores. The TD caught it and let us correct it without penalty, which I fully support. The women always get stuck with the dredges of any division anyway, so what's the point in penalizing us when one of the dredges screws up?


Another dredge at a different tourney decided it was his duty to transpose the scorecard from the wet-rainy-limp original card to a nice crisp-clean-dry card, writing down '+8' instead of '62' for the scores. I was already at lunch after authorizing and initialing the damp card. The TD stuck by the rules on that one and stroked me. For shame on the dredge and TD for that one.

This whole adding scorecard thing can be really subjective, I think/.

...funny... were i td and the wet initialled card presented to me after the fact i probably would not have stroked you on that one. you initialled a card in good faith that you thought was being turned in.

in the other case i would most certainly have stroked you- you approved an incorrect card whether it was your error or not. would you feel differently were it a woman rather than a "dredge" as you put it who had made the error? seems to me they are simply your fellow players regardless of their sex.

i wish the org had never discontinued the practice of making all players initial the card.

So you got away with the violation on the card you turned in after adding it wrong, but were penalized for the card you signed correctly but someone else turned in a wrong card for. Seems backwards to me.

And I resent being called a dredge btw :)

Yeah John!

I personally dont care whether or not people resent me.


this is obvious. great philosophy



And also not helpful when trying to get things changed. People that have historically made changes have been able to not only keep people from resenting them but to also bring over people with opposing views. You don't bring people over with the "I am right, everyone else is wrong, and I will step on everyone to prove I am right."

This is not just aimed at JD but others that come on here and complain without going through proper channels. If your goal is to just come on here and start arguments then just admit it to yourself and be willing to accept the consequences.

If your goal is to actually make a change then this is the worst way to do it. In this situation and others you should have 1.)talked to the TD either in person or via email or PM at that persons club. 2.) contact someone in charge at the local club(same way as in #1). 3.) If you are still not satisfied then there is a contact link at the top of every page I have seen here. Use it and contact who you think is the correct person and if you contact the wrong person they can usually point you to the right person a lot quicker than the people on the discusion board. 4.) If you are still not satisfied with the results and you still feel you are right then come on here and see if you get support.

Just remember coming on here usually causes more harm than good. If your goal is to just come on here and argue with disregard for the consequences then continue to do so that is your right. If your goal is to fix something this should be your last resort not your first as many people consider it.

Bob, you are not a dredge. A dredge is some yahoo that is playing pro and turning in scores 40+ strokes behind the next-to-last pro. Clearly, if they are so delusional in the head as to even sign up for Open, they will likely either a) mess up our scorecard b) act like such a nutjob during the round that all the women become so annoyed our game is affected, or c) spend the entire round talking during drives, walking in front of lies, being oblivious of the rules and etiquette and making the round suck. I believe at DGLO this past weekend the women ended up with a dredge on their card who spent the round giving them dirty looks, muttering about being stuck with the women, losing discs, shanking into trees and he even abandoned their card to go play in a fivesome with the other men, leaving the ladies to play as a twosome at an A-tier for 8 holes. What??????

Lucky the pro women to always get these guys on our card when we need fillers. I've played with you, Bob, and you're not even close to being classified as a dredge.

As to the other speculations, I have never played with a pro woman who can't remember if she just wrote down scores 30 seconds ago, so she writes them again. In Michigan we don't get Am girls experimenting in the pro division (anyone see the Washington Ft. Sheila PWO registration? OHHHH the envy!!!) so we only get women who are smart and good and PROFESSIONAL playing with us.

I thank you for clearing up that I at least am not a Dredge.
Even if I have shot such that a TD placed me in a group of ladies that hopefully didn't mind me playing in their group.

What did the TD of the DGLO do? Was there a non-playing official to join the card? Will you report the TD? Isn't sexual harrassment (dirty looks) a courtesy violation?

Abandoning your card at least is a DQ/withdrawal from the event.

I sympathies with your frustration about the uninspired players you've seen the ladies groups saddled with. Got to be a better way of dealing with the issue. Isn't there an official willing to walk with two players to make up the card?

so what's the point in penalizing us when one of the dredges screws up?



So you learn that you have to do it right in order to avoid being penalized.

Another mystery solved.

It would be extremely rare for me to turn down an offer to play with ladies. Or walk with them. And I don't mind playing golf with them either.

I personally dont care whether or not people resent me.


this is obvious. great philosophy



And also not helpful when trying to get things changed. People that have historically made changes have been able to not only keep people from resenting them but to also bring over people with opposing views. You don't bring people over with the "I am right, everyone else is wrong, and I will step on everyone to prove I am right."

This is not just aimed at JD but others that come on here and complain without going through proper channels. If your goal is to just come on here and start arguments then just admit it to yourself and be willing to accept the consequences.

If your goal is to actually make a change then this is the worst way to do it. In this situation and others you should have 1.)talked to the TD either in person or via email or PM at that persons club. 2.) contact someone in charge at the local club(same way as in #1). 3.) If you are still not satisfied then there is a contact link at the top of every page I have seen here. Use it and contact who you think is the correct person and if you contact the wrong person they can usually point you to the right person a lot quicker than the people on the discusion board. 4.) If you are still not satisfied with the results and you still feel you are right then come on here and see if you get support.

Just remember coming on here usually causes more harm than good. If your goal is to just come on here and argue with disregard for the consequences then continue to do so that is your right. If your goal is to fix something this should be your last resort not your first as many people consider it.




Did I say I was right and no one else was? Please Robert, go back and look at all my posts and tell me where I said I was right and no one else was. You're assuming I have come on here out of anger, when its far from it. Yes, I was angry about what the TD and his staff did, but being as this is the 1st time I've ever had to report a TD I had to come here because I didnt want to start emailing a bunch of people until I got it right. And anyways, when is it a crime to post your opinion or feelings on something? This is a real problem going on in the disc golf communtiy, and people need to be aware of it. But no, when someone becomes uppity everyone has to go and wet their pants in fear that the person might actually have an opinion on something instead of going with the status quo. God forbid we have different personalities and positions on this site!

And I have to wonder why people need the acceptance of others. I used to be like those who always needed someones approval so they'd fit in and feel good, until I actually realized all that matters is how I personally feel. I've never been happier since then. Does it work for everyone? No, but it sure helps me get out of bed.

I apologize for being outspoken in my beliefs. Remind me to build a time machine and go live in 1930's Germany.

First, if you did think you were wrong and the TD was right I probably misread the post and I appologise.

Second, my point was not to go with status quo it is just that you can usually come to a compromise without all this drama by following proper channels.

Third, I have talked to you and read enough of your posts that I assumed you were smart enough if your goal was to contact someone you could probably find that out and therefore your goal was to come on here and vent. I may be wrong but that is my belief.

Fourth, it is not a crime to post your beliefs but be aware that posts like these are going to alienate A LOT of people.

Fifth, most people don't need the acceptance of everyone, but 99% of people want the acceptance of at least some people.

Finally, that last sentence if you can build a time machine it may make more sense to go back and talk to the TD about the mistake before it happens or added up your own score before you left.

Just to further Sarah's education, a dredge is a machine for scooping stuff off the bottom of a body of water. Dregs are the nasty solids in the bottom of the glass of home brewed unfiltered beer or home made wine. The people at the bottom of the division who get put with the two pro women are the dregs. Perhaps the TD who scrapes them off the bottom of their division to put them on the pro women's card is the dredge, but that would be coining a new term.

Did the dredge have dreads or perhaps the dregs who were dreaded?

JD needs to grow dreads, and stop this dreaded thread......

simple option is after the first round teir the following round by score instead of division, of course this may not work if first rounds are played from different layouts, and this option will still ----ss some people of for their own reasons. it is simply the fact that td's cant please all people all the time.
i do have sympathy for players having to play on a card with other players they dont enjoy however not mutch.

JD needs to grow dreads, and stop this dreaded thread......



Other people are posting on this thread too. <font color="blue"> [link to profanity removed] </font>

JD needs to grow dreads, and stop this dreaded thread......



Other people are posting on this thread too. <font color="blue"> [link to profanity removed] </font>


Another Brilliant post