I had the pleasure of following the top open men at nt event recently.
I noticed a difference in interpretation of rule 803.05 obstacles and relief A. Obstacles to a stance or throwing motion: <u>Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle except as allowed for casual obstacles by 803.05c.</u>
Some players would back up into their mark, some would creep into their mark being careful not to move branches but then straighten up, pushing branches back with their stance. Others would put their foot behind their lie, play from their knee or worse and make the awkward shot.
I saw someone miss a 20 footer because they played by the strict interpretation when when they could have made it more advantageous to themselves. (another discussion as to whether there should be schule within the ten meter putting area). This miss likely caused him to lose the tournament. This rule was brought up later privately when another player putted from some schule. His back was touching some branches moving them slightly, to gain a more comfortable putting stance. I asked him why he didn't call his opponents stance, he responded that it was not a callable offense but a matter of personal ethics.
How strictly should this rule be enforced, when many to most don't take the stance of least resistance.
Gaff

We just had this discussion at our weekly. I think like the player you observed said, there is no cut and dry answer, it's a matter of personal interpretation and ethics. For me, it falls under the same principles as sportsmanship. If they are purposefully and obviously trying to circumvent the rules to gain an unfair advantage, then I'll call it.
More often than not though, if they are taking a stance in the shule, it's not a good lie anyway. As long as they aren't in there with a machete and are behind their mark then it's usually ok.

Its pretty cut and dry that you cannot back into a bush, or straighten up and push branches back with your body.


D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

I interpret least movement as incidental contact. If they are standing in the middle of a bush, they cannot move stuff in front of their lie. The stuff behind their mark should not be held out of the way by their off hand. If some branches are bending slightly so they can stand at their mark, I'm not going to tell them that the least movement of the obstacle can be accomplished by doing the splits.

I wouldn't say it's cut and dry, you call someone on the rule they just say they choose the stance that resulted in the least amount of movement possible.

: ) :

I want to get together some footage which illustrates how to properly take a stance, such as in a bush. It would be important for all of our officials and players to get on the same page. It would be easy to put together a library of clips for the PDGA site, allowing folks to reference proper interpretations and rulings.

Joe

I called a player on this just about two weeks back. He backed into a small cedar, bending it back. I told him that it was not allowed, he gave me a dirty look, took another stance that did not bend back the cedar and missed his putt. I could almost read his mind blaming me for the missed putt. Three holes later, he was in another situation that was similar, but his options on stance were not nearly as open and he did not bend a cedar back, but was leaning into it. I did not say anything since he appeared to be taking a stance that caused the least amount of movement. This is a hard rule to call and varies greatly between players.

Later that round, I was in situation where it was very difficult to take a stance without moving something. Fortunately, I found a stance, through the disciplined use of contortion, that allowed me a good stance and I made the putt. After I putt, one of the players said he was on the edge of calling me for the same infraction, until I moved.

When should the observation/warning/call be made?

1. When the player is approaching disc.
2. While examining options.
3. As the player prepares to throw.
4. Just before the toss.
5. After the infraction has actually occurred.
6. At the lunch break.
7. Days later on this message board.

No one wants to be reminded of your rules knowledge
on every opportunity.
It is also not proper to distract the player during set-up.
Who is to say that the parting of the branches is not
merely a last second "visual" of the line and the
branches will be released and returned prior to
the execution of the shot?

s timm

.
Who is to say that the parting of the branches is not
merely a last second "visual" of the line and the
branches will be released and returned prior to
the execution of the shot?

s timm



I see &amp; do this alot (I spend too much time in the bushes...) I would think it's fine to move a branch to see your target &amp; let it fall back in place while you ready your shot. Is that acceptable?

.
Who is to say that the parting of the branches is not
merely a last second "visual" of the line and the
branches will be released and returned prior to
the execution of the shot?

s timm



I see &amp; do this alot (I spend too much time in the bushes...) I would think it's fine to move a branch to see your target &amp; let it fall back in place while you ready your shot. Is that acceptable?



Yes

No offence meant, but are you attacking me? I personnally feel that if you are playing with someone who is on the verge of breaking a rule, you should let them know they are about to break a rule. I don't go on and on about the rules, but I also believe the rules should be followed or changed. If I am playing with a new player, yes I will tell them about rules while we play a round. It seems that too few people share the rules with a player and we end up with open players that don't know them.

If a player breaks a rule, I will also let them know of their infraction. Oddly enough, we are supposed to do that. Do I get on the message board and call a player out for a missed rule? Not that I am aware of, however if an infraction occurs and it is worthy of message board discussion, I will bring it up, but I do not give player names or identities.


When should the observation/warning/call be made?

1. When the player is approaching disc.
2. While examining options.
3. As the player prepares to throw.
4. Just before the toss.
5. After the infraction has actually occurred.
6. At the lunch break.
7. Days later on this message board.

No one wants to be reminded of your rules knowledge
on every opportunity.
It is also not proper to distract the player during set-up.
Who is to say that the parting of the branches is not
merely a last second "visual" of the line and the
branches will be released and returned prior to
the execution of the shot?

s timm

I don't think he meant you specifically. I think he meant that jumping the gun on a warning might annoy the other players unduly.

I think his question is valid... when is too early to say something and when is too late?

If I see someone clearly setup to throw, but not in the act of throwing, I will advise them that they are, say, foot faulting. If they are already in the motion of throwing, I will not say anything as I don't want to make a mistake and take a courtesy violation for distracting them while throwing. It's better to argue if the stance was legal or not without complicating it with a possible retaliatory call.

Joe, another "mistake" I saw repeatedly by some of the top pros was throwing with their heel behind their lie. When they stretch out from a tree with their back to the target, not always, but they will pick up their heel to throw leaving them not behind their lie or too far behind. I remember JK doing a video on this once.
Might be another one to add to your videos
Gaff

Joe, another "mistake" I saw repeatedly by some of the top pros was throwing with their heel behind their lie. When they stretch out from a tree with their back to the target, not always, but they will pick up their heel to throw leaving them not behind their lie or too far behind. I remember JK doing a video on this once.
Might be another one to add to your videos
Gaff




As long as it is planted behind the mini when the throw is released it is ok.

There are a few more rules involved besides the one quoted in this thread.


803.05 Obstacles and Relief
B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A
player may not move, alter, bend, break,
or hold back any part of any obstacle,
including casual obstacles, between the lie
and the hole



In all cases it is not OK to move things while backing into a lie.
Technically, It is not allowed to move a branch to get a better view if it is between your lie and target.
You can cause movement of things behind your lie in order to reach your lie and establish your stance, but once you are in your stance, you should causing the least disturbance possible to the obstacle.

Joe, another "mistake" I saw repeatedly by some of the top pros was throwing with their heel behind their lie. When they stretch out from a tree with their back to the target, not always, but they will pick up their heel to throw leaving them not behind their lie or too far behind. I remember JK doing a video on this once.
Might be another one to add to your videos
Gaff



Thanks, Michael. One of the many variations of the Phantom plant...most often inadvertent, but that might be reduced if folks were aware of the common errors we all make in such situations.

Thanks for the note. I'll have to put some serious details together and confab with some of the know-mores before I get started on this project in earnest.

Joe

Jerry wrote
"No offence meant, but are you attacking me?"

None taken, and no, just posted after you.

My timing question was a general one.

In tourney play, is it really our assignment
to stop a player from making an infraction?

I think we are charged with:
1. Knowing the rules
2. Following the rules
3. Observing each throw in our group
4. Calling any infraction witnessed
5. Enforcing any penalties

I do NOT think it is our role to:
1. Remind everyone about our knowledge of the rules
2. Warn fellow players about possible violations


Casual play or teaching situations are different.

s timm

Knowing when to make a call can sometimes be touchy. And as we all know - making calls in the appropriate tone is as important as the timing.

IMO - As regards the above situation - it is better to make the call during the time the player is attempting to make the stance - as it is most frequently the case - that the player often tries to quickly extricate themselves from the shule after the shot is complete - making it more difficult to call the infraction to the attention of the group.

There are other situations however, where is is better to wait until after the throw to make the call. Examples could be time infractions, or other footfault type stance violations - both of which need to be witnessed by multiple players - and the call really can't be made until afterwards anyway.

from a player's perspective, while timing and tone are certainly the most important, it can be helpful

if you let me know (as I am setting up), that what I am doing is against the rules and will result in a stance violation/foot fault, then this allows me to adjust myself before I throw, saving time and energy

most people would likely get mad if something is said while they are in the act of throwing or preparing to throw...

however, if you wait until after the throw and the call is seconded, then despite the player only getting a warning (the first time), they still have to rethrow the shot, thus getting back in the schule(assuming they got out, much like gang4010 mentioned), and setting themselves up again, which could have been prevented...

if you let me know (as I am setting up), that what I am doing is against the rules and will result in a stance violation/foot fault, then this allows me to adjust myself before I throw, saving time and energy



I think this is fine if you are in a student/teacher relationship taking a lesson out on the course, but not for a sanctioned tournament. Better for participants to know the rules thoroughly rather than rely on others to let them know when they are doing something against the rules.

yes, I would agree - players should know the rules, but as we well know by now, they don't...

so I was replying to the question of, when should you call it - in essence of time (I was replying from a player's perspective), it makes sense to mention something before they throw, but at the same time, they haven't yet committed an infraction and some may not like you disturbing their shot

The way I've seen it work quite well and frequently in tournaments (as far as 'marginal' stances goes) is:

1. Awkwardly contort into the tree to get to a stance
2. Find the best stance I believe to be legal, look at the shot, choose a disc
3. Ask the group if it looks clean (Only once did someone comment that it might not be, and I adjusted)
4. ?????
5. Made shot

The easiest solution to these situations is for the player in question to actually check with the other players if it's even close to questionable. If the player plays a lie with an illegal stance, they need to be called on it just like 'accidentally' missing your marker on a fairway drive.