Is it me or have the rest of you noticed that the AM payouts seem to a little light this year? Over the past few years, there have only be a hand full of tournaments I attended where you knew the payout was more then generous!

This years seems to be the worst I've seen. I realize the PDGA has minimum guidelines for payout. However, what they fail to consider is the amount of donated plastic or over valued plastic that is being given out as prizes. Every organization is allowed to make a small profit. However, when the am payouts contain over valued donated plastic, the size of that profit increases exponentially!!!

One way to eliminate this issue for me is to turn pro. Not sure I'm ready for that, but at least I know all of the money paid in will be going back to the payout.

AM's be aware of what is paid into your divisions! Be aware of the over valued and donated plastic you are being paid out with. Hold your TD's accountable for all of the monies collected!!!

Its obvious you have never run a tournament.

Not true... running one now... and our payout will be over 200% with a minimum of $750 added cash to the PROs. Oh wait... .there's more.... don't forget the players pack with a t-shirt and a disc... oh ... wait.. there's more.... don't forget the fact this tournament is being run under the endowment program so the PDGA fee's collected will be going to our local Chairty....

So... you want to try again TwoPutt??? Running tournaments isn't about fund raising. It's about giving back to the players.. there are much better ways to fund raise!

Haven't checked the stats but it's likely that Advanced division fields may be smaller than last year on average with the ratings break shift.

Haven't checked the stats but it's likely that Advanced division fields may be smaller than last year on average with the ratings break shift.



I can understand that completely... I just have a problem with what a TD calls a $100 payout actually being more like a $50 payout.

Not true... running one now... and our payout will be over 200% with a minimum of $750 added cash to the PROs. Oh wait... .there's more.... don't forget the players pack with a t-shirt and a disc... oh ... wait.. there's more.... don't forget the fact this tournament is being run under the endowment program so the PDGA fee's collected will be going to our local Chairty....

So... you want to try again TwoPutt??? Running tournaments isn't about fund raising. It's about giving back to the players.. there are much better ways to fund raise!




So, you're stating that you will be giving it all back to the players?

You're making zero profit?

Haven't checked the stats but it's likely that Advanced division fields may be smaller than last year on average with the ratings break shift.



I can understand that completely... I just have a problem with what a TD calls a $100 payout actually being more like a $50 payout.




Why because you are paying $16 for a disc the TD bought for $8? I remember when I played Am I never felt shafted because I was "paying" the same amount for the disc that I would anywhere else.

why not talk to the TD's that ran the events you are unhappy with. I've been happy with all the payouts I've seen in the 4 PDGA's i've played so far this year.

: ) :

Well, I think that a large part is what he is referring to is donated plastic...

Now, for my tournaments when I have a sponsor donate the player's pack I do not remove anything from the pool money since I did not pay anything for it. Now, you COULD remove that from the pools as it is not really covered in any guideline. That would equate to a lot of money say $850 for a 50 person tournament with a $17 player pack.

and a lot of tournaments move that money over to the added pro cash. :p

Now, for my tournaments when I have a sponsor donate the player's pack I do not remove anything from the pool money since I did not pay anything for it.


Shouldn't make any difference. Only a fair retail price for the items determines the valuation for payouts. If the TD can get items donated versus paying wholesale, the TD keeps the difference to do as they please within payout guidelines. More TDs should be keeping more than they do to compensate themselves and their volunteers.

Not true... running one now... and our payout will be over 200% with a minimum of $750 added cash to the PROs. Oh wait... .there's more.... don't forget the players pack with a t-shirt and a disc... oh ... wait.. there's more.... don't forget the fact this tournament is being run under the endowment program so the PDGA fee's collected will be going to our local Chairty....

So... you want to try again TwoPutt??? Running tournaments isn't about fund raising. It's about giving back to the players.. there are much better ways to fund raise!




So, you're stating that you will be giving it all back to the players?

You're making zero profit?



Exactly... ZERO PROFIT! That's how it works.... Imagine that... a new trend in Disc golf tournaments... ZERO PROFIT... who would have thought??? Is this a new concept??? See... the organization running this event is a non-profit organization... so... we tend to not take any profits...

You know... I'm not trying to make this a pi$$ing contest or to upset anyone who runs tournaments... I'm just bothered by TD's putting more value on plastic then what they are truly worth... No I'm not talking about wholesale to wholesale... what I'm talking about is the fact that the PDGA says you can value a Star disc at $17 when you can purchase it for as little as $14. Or there are discs that have been sitting in somone's closet for 2 years and the value on that disc two years ago was $20... yet they want to tell me it's worth $25 now???? Which brings up one other issue... we will be using a voucher system... Am Golfers Cashing will be able to pick what they want...not get a bag of plastic they may never use... I give away more plastic because it's stuff I will never use.

Anyway... off my soapbox here... just wanted to hear what others thought... sorry about the negative connotation of this post.

Is it me or have the rest of you noticed that the AM payouts seem to a little light this year? Over the past few years, there have only be a hand full of tournaments I attended where you knew the payout was more then generous!

This years seems to be the worst I've seen. I realize the PDGA has minimum guidelines for payout. However, what they fail to consider is the amount of donated plastic or over valued plastic that is being given out as prizes. Every organization is allowed to make a small profit. However, when the am payouts contain over valued donated plastic, the size of that profit increases exponentially!!!

AM's be aware of what is paid into your divisions! Be aware of the over valued and donated plastic you are being paid out with. Hold your TD's accountable for all of the monies collected!!!



I feel your pain. That is why this year's Lexington Open X (a Super Tour event, April 26-27, in Lexington, KY) will be a different kind of tournament.

We are now up over $7,000 cash added across ALL divisions, not just Pro. That means that the payouts for everybody, from Open down to Juniors will be absolutely and ridiculously SWEET. We are talking nearly 150% payouts. What that means is that each division will be receiving prizes worth 150% of what they paid in. And every division's fees will stay 100% within their own division for payouts.

And we are paying each division DEEP: a full 50% of the field.

On top of that, we also have a $60+ player's pack for every Am that includes 3 different custom stamped discs, a custom stamped mini, and a t-shirt.

You really don't want to miss this tourney. The AM payout will be what it should be and will buck the recent trend you have possibly seen. Coming from Florida might be tough for you, but it would probably be worth your while. For anyone closer, we would love to see you there.

Get in on this up and coming tournament that has been in the Top 25 in the world for several years.

Sign up today at www.pdgasignup.com (http://www.pdgasignup.com) or www.njcpr.org. (http://www.njcpr.org.) This event is pre-registration only.

Lyle McCoon
njcprsports@windstream.net

TDs should make a profit. Actually, good TDs should make a profit. Imagine, a paid position that was based on the quality of your work.

Thanks Lyle! This is what I'm talking about... this should be the trend for tournaments across the country!!! We have too many tournaments where too much money is being made as profit!!! Give back to the Golfers who play and let's grow this sport to phenominal proportions!

Exactly... ZERO PROFIT!



I'm sorry you feel your time and effort is worth so little.

: ) :

Exactly... ZERO PROFIT!



I'm sorry you feel your time and effort is worth so little.

: ) :



No... it's giving back to those who have given before me.... I think this is a concept Americans have gotten away from.... You can continue doing business as usual... and so will I... This is the least I can do.

Zero profit = Zero TDs

Thanks Lyle! This is what I'm talking about... this should be the trend for tournaments across the country!!! We have too many tournaments where too much money is being made as profit!!! Give back to the Golfers who play and let's grow this sport to phenominal proportions!



Well you know...to "grow this sport to phenomenal proportions" it takes money.

I would like to know the exact details of the event that has angered you so much.

There is a difference between shoddy payouts and shoddy valued payouts.

In Tulsa we always have new plastic for payout so there is never any question about value.

Donated plastic always goes to the ring of fire...one of my favorite forms of giveaways....

It sounds to me like you got burned by a chitty TD, not the system my friend.

Profits made from tournaments help cover costs in other areas. Namely course installation and event donation. I feel those are the best ways to support the growth of the sport financially.

And blasting bad Td's on the board is another way... :D

Actually, I think that a TD or Club SHOULD make something for their effort. It encourages repeat TDs and prospering clubs to enhance courses & provide programs for disc golf.

How can a club accomplish anything without money? Clean-ups, donating to good causes, etc...

However, I think that each TD/Club needs to look at where to draw the line and I think that players should know how the payouts are being calcuated. That is how our club chooses to handle donated plastic. We make money other ways. We just prefer to have nice payouts & player packs to make sure that people think that the event was worth their entry fee. :)

Exactly... ZERO PROFIT!



I'm sorry you feel your time and effort is worth so little.

: ) :



No... it's giving back to those who have given before me.... I think this is a concept Americans have gotten away from.... You can continue doing business as usual... and so will I... This is the least I can do.



You are naive if you believe that the people before you didn't make their dollar somewhere....

...and I do not agree with your broad assertion about the people of the country as well...once again you have taken the one for the many and not realized that you might have got the rough hand at the table...

Thanks Lyle! This is what I'm talking about... this should be the trend for tournaments across the country!!! We have too many tournaments where too much money is being made as profit!!! Give back to the Golfers who play and let's grow this sport to phenominal proportions!



Well you know...to "grow this sport to phenomenal proportions" it takes money.

I would like to know the exact details of the event that has angered you so much.

There is a difference between shoddy payouts and shoddy valued payouts.

In Tulsa we always have new plastic for payout so there is never any question about value.

Donated plastic always goes to the ring of fire...one of my favorite forms of giveaways....

It sounds to me like you got burned by a chitty TD, not the system my friend.

Profits made from tournaments help cover costs in other areas. Namely course installation and event donation. I feel those are the best ways to support the growth of the sport financially.

And blasting bad Td's on the board is another way... :D



I agree... it does take money... but when you have a group of individuals working for the same cause...it's not that big of an issue... We are a newly formed club... In the past 18 months, we have generated over 4k for the club... this money is being used for course maintenance, basket replacement and helping with new course installation. None of that money was raised from the tournament we put on each year. It's done with Club memberships and weekly handicap events. We also hold monthly tournaments for the locals and whoever wants to show up but all the $$$ goes back to the golfers.

I just don't get it... I've been part of something for the past 18 months that has a positive cash flow without taking money from tournaments... I am really confused...

As for me being burned.. it's been going on in every tournament I've been to that pays out in plastic and not voucher...voucher payouts are much different... you know you are always getting what you want and it's always new. I know it isn't the system, but I just wished there was a better way to keep things consistent.

You are naive if you believe that the people before you didn't make their dollar somewhere....





perhaps they didn't- that would explain why they're gone.

[quote...I think this is a concept Americans have gotten away from....

[/QUOTE]

How about the feeling of entitlement of deserving something for nothing? Amateurs who feel they are entitled to getting their entire entry fee back---that is, to play for free and have someone else provide them with the experience, all the work and benefits of a whole weekend of disc golf.

Is it an oxymoron to have "amateurs" arguing about "payouts"?

And at least around these parts, those "profits" don't go into the TDs pockets, but into clubs and course improvements.

(This rant from a lifelong Am and occasional TD who's never received so much as a used disc in payment of my efforts)

Actually... I know there have been many in the past that have made their buck or two... I'm talking about experience over the past 2 to 3 years.... I've seen AM payout dwindle over the past 3 years...

As for the comment about being naive... I've seen the take and not give back in more then just disc golf in my life time... I see it pretty much everywhere... see those of you who are concerned enough to respond probably aren't those people... you do care.. you do have a heart... but there are way too many Americans who aren't like that anymore. Most seem to be of that "I'm going get mine" attitude.

I know it isn't the system, but I just wished there was a better way to keep things consistent.



Yes it is a system.

I have seen it done plenty of times.

But what they are doing behind the scenes in a "bag payout" system is not fundamentally different from the voucher system.

Plastic is chosen to a certain value.

The voucher system allows you to select what you want (within the boundaries of the selection available) at the expense of taking freaking forever! :D

I'm glad to see you are treating your ams well at your tournament. Not many TDs are doing that. I hope that works for you and you keep doing it.

But let's not get people thinking you need sponsorship or added cash to pay the ams 150%. We pay our ams 140-150% routinely just by spending most of their entry fee on them.

There are three reasons why am payouts are weak: (1) greedy TDs or merch suppliers, (2) lack of actual sponsorship for the pro purse (3) and really high overhead in some parks that gouge your TD for pavillion rentals or whatever. Of those three, the third one is very uncommon.

Actually... I know there have been many in the past that have made their buck or two... I'm talking about experience over the past 2 to 3 years.... I've seen AM payout dwindle over the past 3 years...

As for the comment about being naive... I've seen the take and not give back in more then just disc golf in my life time... I see it pretty much everywhere... see those of you who are concerned enough to respond probably aren't those people... you do care.. you do have a heart... but there are way too many Americans who aren't like that anymore. Most seem to be of that "I'm going get mine" attitude.



Again, I think if you were to go ahead and reference your grievance then someone could probably make a logical deduction about the situation that has not yet been obvious to you...

Most seem to be of that "I'm going get mine" attitude.


And that's exactly why TDs should be keeping a fair amount for their efforts and not catering to the majority of those who just play for "getting mine" and don't contribute...

I'm glad to see you are treating your ams well at your tournament. Not many TDs are doing that. I hope that works for you and you keep doing it.

But let's not get people thinking you need sponsorship or added cash to pay the ams 150%. We pay our ams 140-150% routinely just by spending most of their entry fee on them.

There are three reasons why am payouts are weak: (1) greedy TDs or merch suppliers, (2) lack of actual sponsorship for the pro purse (3) and really high overhead in some parks that gouge your TD for pavillion rentals or whatever. Of those three, the third one is very uncommon.



Of the reasons you listed, which by no means present a full breadth of problems or influences, I would say number 2 is the most common, then number 1, and then 3. But I would not say number 3 is uncommon.

My first tournament I ran I was gouged for my pavilion, but they never ended up charging me for some reason? :D

We are a newly formed club... In the past 18 months, we have generated over 4k for the club... this money is being used for course maintenance, basket replacement and helping with new course installation. None of that money was raised from the tournament we put on each year. It's done with Club memberships and weekly handicap events. We also hold monthly tournaments for the locals and whoever wants to show up but all the $$$ goes back to the golfers.

I just don't get it... I've been part of something for the past 18 months that has a positive cash flow without taking money from tournaments... I am really confused...




Now I'm confused, if that $4,000 didn't come from tournament profits, then where did it come from?

Players perhaps?


Being a non -profit doesn't mean your bank account has to be empty or that you don't make a profit. Re-invest those profits in your facilities and developement programs.

We are a newly formed club... In the past 18 months, we have generated over 4k for the club... this money is being used for course maintenance, basket replacement and helping with new course installation. None of that money was raised from the tournament we put on each year. It's done with Club memberships and weekly handicap events. We also hold monthly tournaments for the locals and whoever wants to show up but all the $$$ goes back to the golfers.

I just don't get it... I've been part of something for the past 18 months that has a positive cash flow without taking money from tournaments... I am really confused...




Now I'm confused, if that $4,000 didn't come from tournament profits, then where did it come from?

Players perhaps?


Being a non -profit doesn't mean your bank account has to be empty or that you don't make a profit. Re-invest those profits in your facilities and developement programs.



I explained where that $$$ came from.... club memberships and handicap events. Golfers contributing to the club... no tournaments needed for that cash...

We had 61 members last year at $25 per member that was $1525, we have already had 42renew at $20 and 3 new members at $25. That's $915, we also rand handicap which averaged (20 golfers at $1 each ) $20 a week for 78 weeks. That is $1560 for a grand total of $4000.

That's how we did it.

You run one event a year, we run 10. Your plan is not designed for anything but one tournament a year....

....any problem here? :confused:

If your club is the size that a years worth of events etc. fund $4k for one event then why wouldn't you be for a system that provides more tournaments, which in turn is a greater benefit to players, who in turn play more events....

See the cycle?

The goal is to run more tournaments per year. However, this club is only 18 months young and doing more then one this year isn't an option.

I acknowledged your situation, we are talking about your mindset here...

The Melbourne Open paid $36 per player at retail on a $40 entry fee for your division. I cannot find your other tournaments.

That $36 cost the merch man $18 assuming he's pricing his stuff at ordinary retail. Less if he is doing custom stamping. The PDGA costs were $3.25 per player for sanctioning, insurance and PDGA fees. Printing costs run about $0.25 per player. Trophy costs vary, but if there was a $20 trophy for Am Master that $2 per player.

So we've spent $23.50 of your entry fee on you so far. Was there a player pack? Lunch? Course use fee? I supose you'd have to call Brevard County Parks for that. If he threw in a CTP for your division that might set him back two bits.

The TD and the merch man kept $16.50 per advanced player for their efforts, per player, less those numbers we have not accounted for. That's probably 11.50 for the lower divisions. $14 an am times 80 ams is $1120.

They had pro divisions at the tournament. I looked for the $1120 over there but it looks like they just held the pros' money and gave it back to them at the end of the day.

So there you go. Give us some details about player packs, CTPs, food, park use fees and we'll get to the bottom line. :D

LOL... nothing wrong with my mind set. I want to set a new standard for payouts for all disc golf tournaments.

If any new standards will be set they will be for lower not higher payouts at all levels. You and your new club are the next wave of bright eyed bushy tailed idealists (which is great). But as reality sets in, you realize you're being played as suckers by those who are glad enough new blood comes in to run events without them doing much to deserve it. I'm not cynical since I continue to go beyond the call of duty after all these years. But I hate to see new and old contributors being trapped by the less rewarding system (for contributors) and the psychology of payout structures that has evolved over the years in this sport.

I understand your point Chuck.... However, many of the volunteers within our club feel the same way I do... these members have been throwing events for years like the one I'm talking about throwing this year... We aren't in this for anything but to give back to the community and to grow our sport. Maybe in 10 years I will be gone... but hopefully the dream will remain... I pray I don't have any members with the same mind set you and others have had... this is one of the many deterrents to the growth of disc golf.

I would simply say, "Who is doing the work or would do the most good with the net income from the event?" If you think the players are the ones doing the most good for the community then fine. But your very comments here indicate that you and your helpers are the ones who can do the most good for the community.

It takes everyone... for the moment the tournament we are running in June has a total of 10 volunteers. That number will increase as the tournament gets closer.

THERE WILL BE NO NET INCOME FOR THE EVENT... NOT THIS YEAR NOR ANY YEAR WE RUN AN EVENT.

This is my goal. If you or anyone else wants to run events and pocket the profits...so be it... I just want more then 100% payout for AM events I compete in. Minimums are set to make sure the golfers aren't totally ripped off. Which from what I hear... they would be.

Not true... running one now... and our payout will be over 200% with a minimum of $750 added cash to the PROs. Oh wait... .there's more.... don't forget the players pack with a t-shirt and a disc... oh ... wait.. there's more.... don't forget the fact this tournament is being run under the endowment program so the PDGA fee's collected will be going to our local Chairty....

So... you want to try again TwoPutt??? Running tournaments isn't about fund raising. It's about giving back to the players.. there are much better ways to fund raise!




So, you're stating that you will be giving it all back to the players?

You're making zero profit?



Exactly... ZERO PROFIT! That's how it works.... Imagine that... a new trend in Disc golf tournaments... ZERO PROFIT... who would have thought??? Is this a new concept??? See... the organization running this event is a non-profit organization... so... we tend to not take any profits...

You know... I'm not trying to make this a pi$$ing contest or to upset anyone who runs tournaments... I'm just bothered by TD's putting more value on plastic then what they are truly worth... No I'm not talking about wholesale to wholesale... what I'm talking about is the fact that the PDGA says you can value a Star disc at $17 when you can purchase it for as little as $14. Or there are discs that have been sitting in somone's closet for 2 years and the value on that disc two years ago was $20... yet they want to tell me it's worth $25 now???? Which brings up one other issue... we will be using a voucher system... Am Golfers Cashing will be able to pick what they want...not get a bag of plastic they may never use... I give away more plastic because it's stuff I will never use.

Anyway... off my soapbox here... just wanted to hear what others thought... sorry about the negative connotation of this post.



Couple of thoughts ...

If you don't like the payout, don't come back. That's how a free marlet system works.

Why be upset if someone is able to get the pastic donated and then taht in turn earns them a profit? Why do you care if they actually paid for it of got it for free? Seems like sour grapes. More power to those who work their tail off and can get it dontated and earn a little coin. That is the idea, tournaments are run becuase TDs want be cool, they are run for the most part to turn a profit. That's the idea. Why else would you put in hundreds of hours to put on an event to not turn a profit?

This is my goal. If you or anyone else wants to run events and pocket the profits...so be it...


No one said you need to keep the profits, just that you and the volunteers could use the net income better than the players for covering gas and food for volunteers, money toward course improvements, charities, etc.

This point has been made already, in essence.

Profit can do many good things.

A zero profit tournament is like a puff of smoke.....that disappears in the wind...

This point has been made already, in essence.

Profit can do many good things.

A zero profit tournament is like a puff of smoke.....that disappears in the wind...



And from what I'm seeing lately... those profits have been going up in a puff of smoke...... I guess I might feel differently if the profits were being used for the common good...

With that being said... I'm done... can lead a horse to water... just can't make him drink...

peace

I just have 1 thing to say here. Am Payout is an oxy-moron. An Amateur plays a sport for the love of the game, not for any kind of payment. I wouldn't go to say an amateur softball tournament expecting to get all kinds of softball merchandise for my team winning. The winners get to pay to be there and win a trophy.


Here is the Wikipedia definition of Amateurism in Sports.

Amateurism (from Fr. amateur "lover of," from O.Fr., from L. amatoremnom. amator, "lover,"). As a value system, amateurism elevates things done without self-interest above those done for pay (i.e., professionalism). The term has particular currency in its usage with regard to sports. By definition amateur sports require participants to participate without remuneration. Amateurism was a zealously guarded ideal in the 19th century, especially among the upper classes, but faced steady erosion throughout the 20th century, and is now strictly held as an ideal by fewer and fewer organizations governing sports, even as they maintain the word "amateur" in their titles.

The term "shamateurism" has been coined to refer to the hypocrisy which arose in some highly competitive sports where it became common for individuals, governments, and/or private organizations to extend to "amateur" competitors financial rewards for their participation or achievements, in effect making a "sham" of their amateur status.



I have been running tournaments for a long time and you can ask any Ams if the "payout" was good, but that doesn't make paying out Ams right by definition.

I just have 1 thing to say here. Am Payout is an oxy-moron. An Amateur plays a sport for the love of the game, not for any kind of payment. I wouldn't go to say an amateur softball tournament expecting to get all kinds of softball merchandise for my team winning. The winners get to pay to be there and win a trophy.


Here is the Wikipedia definition of Amateurism in Sports.

Amateurism (from Fr. amateur "lover of," from O.Fr., from L. amatoremnom. amator, "lover,"). As a value system, amateurism elevates things done without self-interest above those done for pay (i.e., professionalism). The term has particular currency in its usage with regard to sports. By definition amateur sports require participants to participate without remuneration. Amateurism was a zealously guarded ideal in the 19th century, especially among the upper classes, but faced steady erosion throughout the 20th century, and is now strictly held as an ideal by fewer and fewer organizations governing sports, even as they maintain the word "amateur" in their titles.

The term "shamateurism" has been coined to refer to the hypocrisy which arose in some highly competitive sports where it became common for individuals, governments, and/or private organizations to extend to "amateur" competitors financial rewards for their participation or achievements, in effect making a "sham" of their amateur status.



I have been running tournaments for a long time and you can ask any Ams if the "payout" was good, but that doesn't make paying out Ams right by definition.


yea, i love it when someone gets it right and understands what an amatuer actually is.
mj

according to United States Law, payment in the form of merchandise is the same thing as money - it still counts as income.

However, the reasoning for this was say someone wins a car and then turns around and sells it under the table - the government taxes the person no matter what he does with it.

Exactly... ZERO PROFIT! That's how it works.... Imagine that... a new trend in Disc golf tournaments... ZERO PROFIT



shamless self plug...

My tournament in July, the Raleigh Disc Golf Championship will be using all profits from the event and putting them BACK into the purse. I even am advertising that way on the flyer.

thats why i come there instead of going to maple hill that weekend

Whatever hippie, your car won't make it to Massachusetts! :p

who said it has to be my car, or that you go by car at all!!!!!!!!!

Are you banned from the Peckers Innovan now? lol!

When are the Catawba Valley dues do? Do our dues go up in smoke?

well he wont let us take anything fun at all in the van.
and our dues definitely go up in smoke, or is that are paid in smoke?

At least it is a 100% smokeout!

I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. You are mad at tournaments that payout ams at 100% and make a profit, but you payout 0% at your league think nothing of it. Just an observation.

I agree that I don't like tournaments where individuals make money, but I don't mind if a club makes a small profit on a tournament. I believe this money can be better spent to promote the sport than giving a few tournaments players another disc.

I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. You are mad at tournaments that payout ams at 100% and make a profit, but you payout 0% at your league think nothing of it. Just an observation.

I agree that I don't like tournaments where individuals make money, but I don't mind if a club makes a small profit on a tournament. I believe this money can be better spent to promote the sport than giving a few tournaments players another disc.


that is the smartest thing i have read all night. My course requires alot of work by few people. we are not lucky enough to have a scene that generates 61 due's paying members every year so the LITTLE if any money we make on our tournament (we make most of the (not much)money on lunch) keeps the work we do continuing.

Sounds like everybody is trying to get to the same place, here is the mission statement we use in our club by laws:

Mission: The mission of the Bowling Green Disc Golf Club (referred to as the BGDGC or �club�) is to promote disc golf and encourage good spirit and competition among disc golfers. The BGDGC shall maintain an organized framework for accomplishing tasks and presenting activities, which furthers the goals of the organization. The BGDGC through its members will organize league play, host tournaments, sell merchandise, develop and maintain local disc golf courses. The BGDGC will also strive to increase its membership and promote disc golf throughout Warren County and Kentucky.

Basically you are making "zero" profit from your tournament made up of some out of town players, and you are charging your local players to do all the volunteer work and keep up your courses???

I'm pretty sure we lose money during our weekly and monthly club events throughout the year giving away discs to beginners, schools, and potential sponsors. This year we donated some money to a local charity, and for giving back to our community and parks all these years, the tourism commission has recently awarded us a large grant ($16,500) for several improvements on our local courses.

Keep up the good work, ams are the future of this sport!

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Am Payout is an oxy-moron. An Amateur plays a sport for the love of the game, not for any kind of payment. I wouldn't go to say an amateur softball tournament expecting to get all kinds of softball merchandise for my team winning. The winners get to pay to be there and win a trophy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok then you tell me why we pay outrageous amounts of money? To win a trophy. Then by your standards we should pay $5 each, less pdga fees and have a first place trophy. . Oh yeah don't forget the plastic players win, they usually get to upgrade their game.

Now for the td/clubs they make mad profit on tourneys with hundreds and hundreds of player's. For an example $55 x250 players + oh ya $13,750 for one division. EVERYONE GET THE POINT.

Just my 2 cents

GOOD PAYOUTS MAKES FOR BETTER TURNOUTS!!!

i like how everyone talks about the ams like they dont deserve anything, when the make up about 75% of the fields and only pay about $5 less than the pro's

i like how everyone talks about the ams like they dont deserve anything, when the make up about 75% of the fields and only pay about $5 less than the pro's






When do they pay $5 less than the Pros? I normally pay about $55 at a C-tier, $80 at a B-tier, and $100+ at A-tiers. If I remember correctly I didn't pay nearly as much as an Am.

just be good stewards of the money, and do the right thing. every club is different, there has to be some business decisions involved in order to achieve long term goals. thats why you have club officers elected by peers and club by laws to make these decisions as a group..........Personally, I spent over 300+ hours this past year in club volunteer work. We plan for our 2 big events 11 months in advance, and negotiate with sponsors and vendors year round.

Move up if you don't like you payouts, period. Most retail mark-ups are between 200% and even 250%, and that goes for every good sold. You don't go to the grocery store and expect them to sell you goods for what they pay for them? Now I know TD's should not be in the business of putting money in their pockets from tournaments, but I feel nearly all of them move all of this money over to the pro purse, which is they way it should be I feel. Bigger pro purses are the only way this sport is ever going to grow.

Move up if you don't like you payouts, period. Most retail mark-ups are between 200% and even 250%, and that goes for every good sold. You don't go to the grocery store and expect them to sell you goods for what they pay for them? Now I know TD's should not be in the business of putting money in their pockets from tournaments, but I feel nearly all of them move all of this money over to the pro purse, which is they way it should be I feel. Bigger pro purses are the only way this sport is ever going to grow.



Why should a TD not put some money into his pocket? All his/her time and effort that they put into the tournament before, during, and after were part of a donation to the players?

Jack, you should not have gone here as I have been like a lion in the bush!!

You did make a profit last year so do not say you all did not!
Secondly, you are supporting the FFT and well there is your problem right there!! They are trying to have added money for players at the end of the year. It has to come from somewhere right? and I think I heard you where attempting to win the points race in AM MA$TER$????
Thirdly, last year you guys allowed second hand parties to handle your am payout$!!! Why??? Then you guys had 1500 worth of merchandise given to you to use as payouts. Where did that money go? It sure did not show up in your payout! In fact as I have told you, the records you all keep just flat out reek, and they have still not been fixed or money is still not accounted for.

Paying the ams 250% means you are juggling the numbers nothing more and to run an event without one pro on your BOD leaves something to be desired. Are you telling these folks that the JO will give players the prizes at wholesale? If so you better re-read the agreement with your manufactuers. They do not support such endevors so you may want to rethink that. Zero profit, then how does a club have 2400+/- in there account? Why do players have to pay to establish a handicap? Why do they have to pay more if they are not club members? A dollar to play hadicap when it is in a public park?
It takes money to do things and I understand why and the wholesale/retail is along the same way of thinking as you all taking money to play. Please do not tell these people that you have not made money off an event when you indeed have, even if some of it goes back to the course. When will you stop collecting? Is 2400 not enough for right now? Throw 1k into the event and that is a challenge to you :D
You also mentioned that you wanted big names at your event at the meeting. When you are going up against an NT on the same weekend, the only way to do that is increase the PRO payout and have a final of some sorts for the ams to watch maybe then they will see the light. Even on my sons little league team we still have to pay a fee to wear a pro jersey.

Bobby, you must not play very much as there is more then a 5 dollar difference between open and AM's.

Why should a TD not put some money into his pocket? All his/her time and effort that they put into the tournament before, during, and after were part of a donation to the players?



I agree 100%. I have no problem with a TD making money. Most of the time a TD (at least here locally) is a representative of a club, and all the profits go to the club.

However, I still think that the TD should donate all profits in some way to something. I'm not saying that I'm going to get upset if a TD makes money, but I honestly believe that the TD is a volunteer position.

I've ran 4 PDGA events.
The profits from my events have gone to the following :
- Towards purchasing a basket, tee sign, and 2 tee pads for a hole on a new course in the same town
- To our local club
- And twice to the NC food bank

And for the event I'm running in July, all profits are put back in that exact same tournament.

The main problem with profit is for some reason, people don't understand how it works or how it is made from tournaments. When I originally proposed my idea for the July tournament and donating all the profit to the pro fields someone told me they didn't think it was fair that I was taking money out of the amatuer fields to pad the pro purse. I quickly explained that the amatuer payout would be the same regardless of if I did this or not.

I honestly think it would shock people how much money tournaments make. I know I am always happy to share the amount of profit I make from a tournament and that figure is typcially over 500 dollars, purely from amateurs.

We always add money to the pro purse and we always make sure we invest any profits toward the disc golf course which benefits everyone. I don't want any money for myself, if I wanted to make personal money from the tournamnet I would be running it for the wrong reason. I think that the host club and course should benefit from running a great event. Those that have run and event understand this while those that haven't , probably aren't familiar with all of the things that go in to running a "quality" event. I have no problem holding some money as long as it gives back to disc golf in some positive way. I think each club is able to determine that based on their local needs.

Also, we don't depend on the tournaments we run to be our only source of income. We do fundraisers that allow us to do things that we need to do as well. We are currenlty building a kiosk with signage, fencing off an areas adjacent to parking, and installing a practive basket hole 19.....all of this is from selling concessions on the weekends. Our club members have worked hard to get these other items that will benefit anyone that comes to our course and our tournament.

Most retail mark-ups are between 200% and even 250%, and that goes for every good sold.


what industry are you in? unless your selling jewlery or food your lucky to make 100%.

Sounds like the furniture business

I'm not against profits from a tournament going to a club, charity, etc., but going straight into the TD's pocket is a little greedy if you ask me.

Most retail mark-ups are between 200% and even 250%, and that goes for every good sold.


what industry are you in? unless your selling jewlery or food your lucky to make 100%.



Wall decor and decorative accessories - 250% mark-up, I am in the industry.

Jack, you should not have gone here as I have been like a lion in the bush!!

You did make a profit last year so do not say you all did not!
Secondly, you are supporting the FFT and well there is your problem right there!! They are trying to have added money for players at the end of the year. It has to come from somewhere right? and I think I heard you where attempting to win the points race in AM MA$TER$????
Thirdly, last year you guys allowed second hand parties to handle your am payout$!!! Why??? Then you guys had 1500 worth of merchandise given to you to use as payouts. Where did that money go? It sure did not show up in your payout! In fact as I have told you, the records you all keep just flat out reek, and they have still not been fixed or money is still not accounted for.

Paying the ams 250% means you are juggling the numbers nothing more and to run an event without one pro on your BOD leaves something to be desired. Are you telling these folks that the JO will give players the prizes at wholesale? If so you better re-read the agreement with your manufactuers. They do not support such endevors so you may want to rethink that. Zero profit, then how does a club have 2400+/- in there account? Why do players have to pay to establish a handicap? Why do they have to pay more if they are not club members? A dollar to play hadicap when it is in a public park?
It takes money to do things and I understand why and the wholesale/retail is along the same way of thinking as you all taking money to play. Please do not tell these people that you have not made money off an event when you indeed have, even if some of it goes back to the course. When will you stop collecting? Is 2400 not enough for right now? Throw 1k into the event and that is a challenge to you :D
You also mentioned that you wanted big names at your event at the meeting. When you are going up against an NT on the same weekend, the only way to do that is increase the PRO payout and have a final of some sorts for the ams to watch maybe then they will see the light. Even on my sons little league team we still have to pay a fee to wear a pro jersey.

Bobby, you must not play very much as there is more then a 5 dollar difference between open and AM's.



Bob, let me address your comments. First of all, I was not the TD last year and from when I found out about the $165 or however close to that amount the profit was, was an oversight...if it had been caught prior to payout..it would have gone into payout. Therefore... your comment about "taking profit" is mistaken.

I know you see things for how they are...then react... but you really don't know me or anyone of the Board of Directors for our club. You think you know them. You may know of us... but you really don't know us. You don't know our character. With all this being said, I unfairly did the same to you prior to your arrival here. However I am learning more about you every day I speak with you and read your posts. I will not take this as a personal attack on me or our club..of which you are a member. Your membership is appreciated. The dollars you give the club are and will be used to benefit our courses and the growth of disc golf to the best of our abilities. We are not pros at this... we are a young organization with growing pains.

Ok...as for the FFT... I do support the FFT and understand that $2 out of my entry fee goes directly to them for our end of the year payout... Yes I am trying to win the points race in MM1 this year. This beginning of the 3rd year I have been playing disc golf and I have set some goals for myself. I'm not knocking the FFT. What I'm knocking is the fact that any AM event can payout at 150% retail without collecting any sponsorship... so why is it payouts have gone down to the minimum...that's my question???

I'm fully aware of the agreements with the suppliers and we will not be prizing anything out at wholesale.. actually we have attained several sponsors to help us achiever our 200+% payouts for both AM and PRO... as for your comment about not having a PRO on the BOD... I welcome any PRO to step up and run for a position next year... we asked on several occassions in the past and the response I personally receiveced was... "we did our time". So before you start throwing out accusations understand the entire truth....

As for the remainder of your comments, understand RCDGA was started to pick up where some of the older pro's left off.... the decision was to continue doing business as usual with the exception of having a formal organization in place to represent disc golfers in our city that choose to be a part of the club. The $1 for handicap has been in existence many years prior to RCDGA. So once again... before you make accusations please understand and get the entire truth.

As for the $1000 added cash... well a minimum of $750 will be there.... We may or may not make that $1000...however we are trying... now for you to ask to take it out of the club fund... that is where my experience with other associations finances comes to play. I'm the main reason why there is somewhat of a reserve fund. I feel there is a need for one as I'm sure you would feel the same way... how bad would it be if we had a hurricane or even vandalism that came through the park that destroyed over half of our baskets? Wouldn't it be nice to have the money in reserves to get back up and running as soon as possible? I've seen it happen man.. I've seen associations gone bankrupt because they didn't have the necessary funds to handle the bad times....

As for the Tournament date... that was decided back in October of last year... was the NT schedule for 08 out back then??? No.. it wasn't. Do we try our best to avoid other tournaments... absolutely!!! With that being said, I do remember you telling me that you were going to get KC to attend this year. Is that going to happen? I won't hold it against if he doesn't... Ultimately it is his decision.

With all this being said Bob, I'm wondering something... I've noticed you've made several posts on our forum and several comments via email that are of very negative connotations. Since you are a member of our club, I have yet to see you bring this information up at a Club Board Meeting. Why is it you are quick to throw the club which you are a member of under the bus?

I call them as I see them Bob... if you aren't the person I was led to believe you are, then step up to the plate and show everyone.

With all this being said, our club has taken something that was started many years ago and we are building on that to make it the biggest and best we can. We want to give back to the many people who have done their part. This isn't something that is going to happen over night... it's a learning process. The sport of disc golf is forever changing...whether people want to accept that or not... it's becoming a more mainstream sport and I'm sure that scares a lot of people. It sure would be nice to see Corey playing for $100k one day... but until the mindset changes.... that will never happen.

So... I'm going to encourage you to not only continue your constructive criticism but to be part of the solution by stepping up to the plate and doing more to help our club... that's right your club and my club do whatever we can to grow our organization, help our charity and to promote disc golf to everyone. If you can do those all those things, then you will truly understand me and what I stand for in this sport.

Last but not least... if you had read my post on page 4 you would have seen how the club made the money last year.

Thanks

Jack

Jack, you should not have gone here as I have been like a lion in the bush!!

You did make a profit last year so do not say you all did not!
Secondly, you are supporting the FFT and well there is your problem right there!! They are trying to have added money for players at the end of the year. It has to come from somewhere right? and I think I heard you where attempting to win the points race in AM MA$TER$????
Thirdly, last year you guys allowed second hand parties to handle your am payout$!!! Why??? Then you guys had 1500 worth of merchandise given to you to use as payouts. Where did that money go? It sure did not show up in your payout! In fact as I have told you, the records you all keep just flat out reek, and they have still not been fixed or money is still not accounted for.

Paying the ams 250% means you are juggling the numbers nothing more and to run an event without one pro on your BOD leaves something to be desired. Are you telling these folks that the JO will give players the prizes at wholesale? If so you better re-read the agreement with your manufactuers. They do not support such endevors so you may want to rethink that. Zero profit, then how does a club have 2400+/- in there account? Why do players have to pay to establish a handicap? Why do they have to pay more if they are not club members? A dollar to play hadicap when it is in a public park?
It takes money to do things and I understand why and the wholesale/retail is along the same way of thinking as you all taking money to play. Please do not tell these people that you have not made money off an event when you indeed have, even if some of it goes back to the course. When will you stop collecting? Is 2400 not enough for right now? Throw 1k into the event and that is a challenge to you :D
You also mentioned that you wanted big names at your event at the meeting. When you are going up against an NT on the same weekend, the only way to do that is increase the PRO payout and have a final of some sorts for the ams to watch maybe then they will see the light. Even on my sons little league team we still have to pay a fee to wear a pro jersey.

Bobby, you must not play very much as there is more then a 5 dollar difference between open and AM's.




Bob,

There certainly appears to be a lot of hostility towards people and the club. I am not sure what was done for them to offend you to the degree of anger displayed and venom spewed, but for the good of the sport in NE Florida, I hope you are able to work out your differences. Based on your own post any many websites, you have a lot to offer in the way of bettering disc golf everywhere, wouldn't your energy be put to better use if there was positive work being done.

Personally:
1. I don't think an individual should ever make money as a TD unless he is hired to do just that.
2. I do think clubs should be able to keep a portion of the proceeds as long as the payout to the winners is standard to other tournaments in size and venue.
3. I believe that AM's should not be looked down upon and PRO's should not be treated like gods. Anyone can be a PRO if their rating is where it needs to be and the dues are paid.... and we all know that ratings can be manipulated.
4. Having a PRO on a club's BOD does not insure that the club will be doing things the right way with the right agenda - for validation - refer back to #3 PROs are not gods.
5. Also, the majority of people involved in this sport (as I have seen) are volunteers, each giving back to the sport for their own reason. Time and energy are not endless commodities and therefore ANYTIME some gives of themselves to better something, maybe a thank you would be nice or better yet, stand beside them and help.


Anyway... this is just a girl's view point... for whatever it is worth. :cool:

Am Payouts should be limited to prizes, and entry fees should be drastically reduced at all PDGA events.

There are too many events every freaking weekend, and we should do a better job of catering to all players. Am's do make up most of the field, lets lower the cost, especially since non-PDGA entries went up, and get rid of (big stax-o-plastics)prizes, and give players pack of value to all players.

Last time I checked, and I check sort of regularly, NONE of the manufacturers GIVE away plastic. It is all bought and paid for some how, Everyone has to pay to play, now complaining about payouts and how the governing body requests it paid is silly. Thinking that the payout is drastically over inflated is another misnomer, unless the TD is a complete IDIOT, everyone knows what the cost is typically for all products in our sport, it is not a well guarded secret. The value comes from the design of the logo, and the work the club, TD or entity puts into the event.

To each his own, but as a person that has done a few events, typically if your event makes money it is minimal, and realistically the event that makes money is still losing money, you really wanna put a price on all the time a TD does for each event? If you can quantitatively do that, I would like to know the methods and logic used in the algorithm.

The bottom line is that all TD's are over worked, underpaid, and our sport is SUPER CHEAP, grow up, get rid of the "themed etitlement" of the am players, and play for fun, or GET OUT.

You can of course step up and play to win for the real $$$ and then of course you can find other methods to bump up the purse, but that is another thread.

All good points... I am a 3 year young player and I plan to donate to Pro Masters on the Florida Tour next year. I can't get better if I don't compete against the best!

I think I missed the point of the original posting -

My interpretation is that the original poster was not happy that AM payouts are dwindling and the its because of the appearance of over valuing what is being distributed (valuing a $10 disc as $20 or an old used disc as a new one).

I read and reread a lot of the replies and it seems that either I totally misunderstood or they did so I would assume it was me.

There was a lot of comments about the AM's getting a payout - AM's in disc golf to get something for placing, havent seen a Disc Golf tourney yet where they dont... so here are some questions:

1. why is it unreasonable for AMs to want a standard for something they are already getting?
2. why does it appear that some PROs take is personal that AMs are involved and are trying to do right by the sport?
3. Why are some posters so hostile, I thought this was a hippie sport with a lot of love?
4. Why is is wrong for things to be done differently?
5. Why is it that the long time players are so easily offended by new players - does playing for a long time make you an expert?
6. Other than the top players - none of the pros do only this for a living. Why is there such disregard for an AM / REC player when they make up more than 75% of the part of the playing field.
7. If not for AM's - would pro payout be 200% or better for every tournament? Where else is the rest of the money come from?
8. If Pros only make up 25% of the sport participation then who else does all the course work, clubs, tournaments, etc?
9. Our city has several players that call themselves pros, routinely they are beat by the AMs during our monthly tournaments and most of them are not current with the PDGA - so what makes them Pros?
10. Are you still a Pro if you are not a current PDGA member?
11. If you have never cashed as a PRO - are you still a pro - if you have never cashed, you are not really getting paid to play - right?

I'm not against profits from a tournament going to a club, charity, etc., but going straight into the TD's pocket is a little greedy if you ask me.

From another post - "don't think an individual should ever make money as a TD unless he is hired to do just that."




People, who is going to do this hiring? A TD is a promoter. They work for themselves, not some imaginary disc golf boss. Why does everyone feel that a promoter (let alone all of the staff) should do everything for free? What other sport expects this?

A TD does the job for a reward. That reward may be for the good feeling of raising money for a charity or club, may be for the good feeling of providing players with huge stacks of plastic, may be for the recognition they get from pulling off a big event. Or it may be, at least in the future, a way to make a living. I'm all for TDs getting their payback in the form they feel the best about. But I think it is obvious that some of the paybacks will better promote having TDs with 20 years of experience down the road better than others.

IMO, we will get to the point of bigger and better tournaments when the business of running such events becomes that - a business. The person who brings to town WWF wrestling, Monster Trucks, the state level bowling tournaments and so on gets paid for their effort. That's what they do. The 'volunteers' get paid for their time. As an example, the ball golf tournament that comes to your town makes money for more than just the players. People involved at the higher levels of promoting make money for their efforts. The best make good money, and run amazing events that are good for all.

When and if we get to the point that players can make a living at this sport, then why would it not also be expected that the promoters do also? You don't play in a supervised volleyball league and expect the ref and the bartender to be volunteers. You don't view a baseball game and expect that all of the ushers are there because it makes them feel good. If pro beach volleyball comes to your town, believe it that the people that brought it there made money for their efforts. Even if a charity is involved. Why would you expect everyone in disc golf to continually donate all their time and efforts just so the players can take more plastic or cash? How does that grow the sport?

I think the Memorial was a good experiment which showed that it isn't payout alone that is driving the growth of the sport. I believe that filled regardless of the payout structure. I bet it fills again next year.

The difference I see is that for a 'Pro' in disc golf currently, just about anyone can be one.

They are not always the elite athlete that has earned their way there. This is very different than other sports.

A club could hire some one to run the tournament, then it would be understood that that person would get paid to do a job. But very few if any disc golf tournaments are run by a paid person. Therefore, my feeling is and this is my personal feeling, that if someone volunteers to be a TD, they should not take money from the tournament to put in their pockets. I beleive that any money made from a tournament that is not given back to the participants should used towards better the sport, the course, clinics for potential players, charity, etc.


Again... these are just my personal views... If others think that TD and other volunteers should be reimbursed for their expenses... that is their opinion and they are entitled to believe that.

The difference I see is that for a 'Pro' in disc golf currently, just about anyone can be one.

They are not always the elite athlete that has earned their way there. This is very different than other sports.

A club could hire some one to run the tournament, then it would be understood that that person would get paid to do a job. But very few if any disc golf tournaments are run by a paid person. Therefore, my feeling is and this is my personal feeling, that if someone volunteers to be a TD, they should not take money from the tournament to put in their pockets. I beleive that any money made from a tournament that is not given back to the participants should used towards better the sport, the course, clinics for potential players, charity, etc.


Again... these are just my personal views... If others think that TD and other volunteers should be reimbursed for their expenses... that is their opinion and they are entitled to believe that.



Pro or am has nothing to do with it. How easy it is to be a pro doesn't either. If you play in volleyball tournaments, bowling tournaments, softball tournaments or the like, you will be experiencing a cash payout situation for people who obviously are not professionals. And the people running, officiating, coordinating, scoring and so on are paid. The teams pay an entry fee. The top teams get a reward. And no, the payout doesn't equal the total entry fees paid.

Not all tournaments are run by clubs. They are run by TDs, who may happen to be a club member, and usually the local club is where the saps (I can say that as I'm one of them) are tapped to form the staff that gives their time for nothing. And if the TD even takes out enough after all is said and done for putting together a pizza party for these suckers..... err..... volunteers, then some slide rule participant screams how the payout wasn't big enough.

About the best thing that could happen to break this pattern would be for more TDs to start taking the percentage allowed in the PDGA guidelines. But if a TD wants to run tournaments strictly as a volunteer, more power to them. I hold nothing against them just as I hold nothing against a TD for demanding compensation for their time.

Bobby, you must not play very much as there is more then a 5 dollar difference between open and AM's.

i dont know what you call a lot but i played in 10 tournaments last year. o.k $10 difference is what i see

Jack& Tina,
Thanks for your responses. Jack someone said earlier you must not have been a TD before and then you said that you have. I took it as you where talking about the event from last year. If not then my bad. I was just stating the club/TD did make money which is OK{and as you can see the masses agree}. No accusations about the club just the fact that it happend, sadly you guys took it personal. How is that venom? when it is a fact.
Your original question was about am payouts and I brought up the fact that you are supporting the FFT which have been the events you have attended. I then went on to say, they suplement the year end winners so, that might have something to do with it. I can not say anything about the 150% Once again no venom. another fact

Then there are the statements about passing judgement about me now/prior or in the future. Like you both, there are people that like you and some that don't. I happen to be happy with myself and could care less about the haters. This is you all spewing venom as I would never pass judgement based on what some of the things that are said about you guys.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and to say otherwise is just showing your hand. I asked why did they/we have to pay when there is 2400 in the account and when would enough be enough. Your response sounds reasonable but I would think there should be some sort of a cap. I mentioned that the records where not up to par. You said I have not brought this up before which is not true as we all know. If you care to tell everyone about them that is fine otherwise like you and I discussed they will be improved in the future. I also have been at a meeting and suggested many things that had not been done at the time. I only suggest the pro be on the bod to have fair representation on events and just there years of experince. Like your question to me about big names coming. You missed the point about the NT, if you have or will have a 1k to the winner payday then many would come to your event.

Sorry i missed page 4 but, there needs to be a cap on how much money is in a club fund.
Lastly, I am not bashing anyone just my concerns or ways to improve something that I care about. I only added my 2 cents and then you added your 4 cents. I have given you all many ways to improve and I think you guys are going to do a great job.

Fact = the reason most pros burnout and that we have this ridiculous rules that allow pros to go back to am is b/c they can make more money play adv. than they can playing pro.

Fact = the reason most pros burnout and that we have this ridiculous rules that allow pros to go back to am is b/c they can make more money play adv. than they can playing pro.



lol, and if your over 40 like me you can go all over the place. Still debating about the Jax Open as a 200%+ payout is a winner, winner chicken dinner :p

The differences between Am/Pro entry fee is typically, 30-50% more.

So if you are only playing C-Tiers, the $10 things might work, otherwise there is a standard that is in place, you can look at that information in teh document section.
http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08TourStandards.pdf

You should look for information that is accessible prior to posting inaccuracies.

There are set standards, and people have complained for years when TD's follow them. The work that goes on with holding an event is TIME CONSUMING, X, C, B, A, NT, they all take hours of work and preparation. People that do it should get paid, but most of us don't.

We make $$ through our leagues, and we typically do not make a lot of $$$ if any on the big events, but the rewards typically are that our courses look great during the event, and we get exposure to the rest of the community about our sport and to the P&R to build relationships so that they know the work that is being done.

To think that people don't get paid is ridiculous. We all get paid, it just is how do you want to coin the term "paid". I get it in personal satisfaction and accomplishment to continue to keep KC as the BEST place in AMERICA to play Disc golf, HANDS DOWN.

To keep that feeling, we all work towards it. Events and people make it happen, but if you have a quality product (SEE KC COURSES AGAIN) people will play and bring friends, and have a blast, poor payout (perception issues) or not.

Following the guidelines tends to agitate some people, I think that it makes the most sense to do so, that is why they are there, guidelines to follow.

But then I have never donw anything with this sport for the love of the game. I am still riding my helicopter rides from the masses of $$$$ that keeps on coming in from the events with all the Free stuff that all the companies send to the disc golf events.

Sorry gotta go, an owl and an eagle are fighting for my airspace........

It is disc golf.....it is a game, and it is growing, follow the rules, and it will grow more.

From MTL
"Fact = the reason most pros burnout and that we have this ridiculous rules that allow pros to go back to am is b/c they can make more money play adv. than they can playing pro."


Dude...put the PIPE DOWN, that is about the silliest comment out of all the comments made in this thread.

I would challenge you to give examples of 5 people that clearly would say they returned to AM status because they saw it as an opportunity to get more $$$$ out of disc golf. I seriously doubt that you can find 3, let alone 5...but if you get it, I will wear a Hab's jersey throughout the Wide Open as I marshal it in June, no matter the weather.......


"Sorry i missed page 4 but, there needs to be a cap on how much money is in a club fund."

That is a close 2nd to the above comment. A cluub needs more money to make things happen, to think that you should cap a bank account is ridiculous. Seriously why would you limit the money that a club has to make things happen within the community? Does the P&R pick up all expenses in that part of the world? can you match the P&R to get anotehr course in? Do you need to advertise in the local magazine, or Disc mag to promote your event? I guees then that $2400 should cover it, that seems to be a lifetime of disc golf money, you guys are good, go ahead and stop collecting......

Really? You think that way? Absurd to me with that tpe of logic, but then I see how money vanishes fast from bobcat rentals, paint, flyers, newsletters, advertising, feeding the Overpaid staff, luxury yacht cruises to the bahamas, playing Black Jack in the French Riveria, these are all things that Disc Golf clubs do with thier money isn't it?

Seriously, a "cap"?

From MTL
"Fact = the reason most pros burnout and that we have this ridiculous rules that allow pros to go back to am is b/c they can make more money play adv. than they can playing pro."


Dude...put the PIPE DOWN, that is about the silliest comment out of all the comments made in this thread.

I would challenge you to give examples of 5 people that clearly would say they returned to AM status because they saw it as an opportunity to get more $$$$ out of disc golf. I seriously doubt that you can find 3, let alone 5...but if you get it, I will wear a Hab's jersey throughout the Wide Open as I marshal it in June, no matter the weather.......



Dude, that's not a real bet....you wear that Habs sweater all the time anyway. Of course, I doubt you'll lose that bet anyway.

Now, if you had to wear a Hurricanes or a Blues sweater....now we're talking.

Damnit John, stay outta here......besides it all depends on if the ams slide me the $$$ anyway......

Oh yeah, speaking of Which GO DEVILS, and Nashville this round.....hopefully that will be all they need.

Damnit John, stay outta here......besides it all depends on if the ams slide me the $$$ anyway......

Oh yeah, speaking of Which GO DEVILS, and Nashville this round.....hopefully that will be all they need.




I made just as much money as an AM as I did in my rookie year. I payed about half the entry fee as an AM which helped.

Now how do you claim to make $$$, are you selling your discs then? Does that count? Because then you are becoming a vendor, and that is not the same as "winning", I can see that you think that way, but the reality is would you return to "MA1 vs MPO" because it is that advantageous for you to return to that level?

Also were you not sponsored as an AM and as PRO?
;p

So your need to liquidate may be artificially better than the typical MA1 individual to think about......

Now how do you claim to make $$$, are you selling your discs then? Does that count? Because then you are becoming a vendor, and that is not the same as "winning", I can see that you think that way, but the reality is would you return to "MA1 vs MPO" because it is that advantageous for you to return to that level?

Also were you not sponsored as an AM and as PRO?
;p

So your need to liquidate may be artificially better than the typical MA1 individual to think about......



I remember selling like 2 baskets for $200 a piece as well as two DB-5s from putting contest that I sold for $110. Those were all sole either back to the club or just to guys at the event so it wasn't too hard. My dad was the one who sold the discs and it pretty much covered the next event. :D

From MTL
"Fact = the reason most pros burnout and that we have this ridiculous rules that allow pros to go back to am is b/c they can make more money play adv. than they can playing pro."


Dude...put the PIPE DOWN, that is about the silliest comment out of all the comments made in this thread.

I would challenge you to give examples of 5 people that clearly would say they returned to AM status because they saw it as an opportunity to get more $$$$ out of disc golf. I seriously doubt that you can find 3, let alone 5...but if you get it, I will wear a Hab's jersey throughout the Wide Open as I marshal it in June, no matter the weather.......





Not going to name names but I know 2 people that have said this.

i agree with robert i know a couple who have said this very thing
mj

I'm becoming a little uneasy with the TD's who pass out vouchers to there store and then want 17 bucks for plastic. I can get the same plastic online for 14. The fact is all am money is profit for the TD. I know that he's getting star plastic for half of what he's selling it for. I'm not saying that he shouldn't make a profit but come on! Case in point is BG AM's. I placed 1st in my division at a another tourney that had 28 people. I won $85. I place 32 in BG out of 142 and won a $18 star roc. This seems way off. C'mon TD's give a little bit more so we keep coming back.

MSRP for star plastic is $17.

This post is highly ignorant.


I'm becoming a little uneasy with the TD's who pass out vouchers to there store and then want 17 bucks for plastic. I can get the same plastic online for 14.



I don't know Discrafts, Gateways, etc. policy on this, but I am 100% sure about Innovas. Innova regulates how much their discs sell for. If you are a retailer and you sell a star disc for less than Innova tells you, they have the right and probably will (esp. if someone complains) stop selling to that retailer. This is to prevent competition that hurt disc sales. So when a TD sets his prices at a certain number (and 17 for a star disc is right on point), he is merely doing what he is supposed to.



The fact is all am money is profit for the TD.



100% incorrect. If ALL am money was profit for the TD, there would be no am payout. All amateur payout is at minimum a reflection of the entry fees.


I know that he's getting star plastic for half of what he's selling it for.



Welcome to basic economic structure.


Case in point is BG AM's. I placed 1st in my division at a another tourney that had 28 people. I won $85. I place 32 in BG out of 142 and won a $18 star roc.



Apples to oranges. You can't compare tournament to tournament. You also failed to mention the huge players package your recieved at BG ams. A payout from a 30 dollar entry with no players pack is going to be higher than a 40 dollar entry with a 20 dollar players pack.


This seems way off. C'mon TD's give a little bit more so we keep coming back.



If you need prizes / money to keep playing, you won't be here long. I was one of the top 10 money earners in NC last year at a huge total of 2,800 dollars. Top 10 in the state in earnings and not even 3 grand. I've seen many people come in and try to make money and leave the game b/c they truly were only about the money.

Honestly you need to do some research and stop bashing volunteers.

I'm becoming a little uneasy with the TD's who pass out vouchers to there store and then want 17 bucks for plastic. I can get the same plastic online for 14. The fact is all am money is profit for the TD. I know that he's getting star plastic for half of what he's selling it for. I'm not saying that he shouldn't make a profit but come on! Case in point is BG AM's. I placed 1st in my division at a another tourney that had 28 people. I won $85. I place 32 in BG out of 142 and won a $18 star roc. This seems way off. C'mon TD's give a little bit more so we keep coming back.



I don't think BG Ams is having a problem keeping people coming back.

OK all you Ams that think you are not adequately compensated for play a game that is a HOBBY for you. Here are a few questions for you.

I'm becoming a little uneasy with the TD's who pass out vouchers to there store and then want 17 bucks for plastic. I can get the same plastic online for 14. The fact is all am money is profit for the TD. I know that he's getting star plastic for half of what he's selling it for. I'm not saying that he shouldn't make a profit but come on! Case in point is BG AM's. I placed 1st in my division at a another tourney that had 28 people. I won $85. I place 32 in BG out of 142 and won a $18 star roc. This seems way off. C'mon TD's give a little bit more so we keep coming back.



You still need to pay shipping on that $14.00 Star disc you purchased online. $17.00 is a reasonable value and not over-inflated by any means. Please consider that some events purchase direct from the manufacturer while others go through a local vendor that helps sponsor the event and promote the sport locally.

Also, when comparing events and payouts please take into account the cost of the entry and the value of any player packages and extras like player parties and meals you may have received. Did both these events charge the same entry fee? Did both events provide player packages with the same value and comparable extras?

Different events have different costs. I imagine an event using only one course for the weekend will have less costs than an event using eight courses!! Events in different areas of the country also have players that may expect different things.

TD's can only give back what they can, if you don't like the value you are getting for your entry, please don't return. It seems unfair to rag on event payouts on the message board while comparing apples to oranges.

I'm becoming a little uneasy with the TD's who pass out vouchers to there store and then want 17 bucks for plastic. I can get the same plastic online for 14. The fact is all am money is profit for the TD. I know that he's getting star plastic for half of what he's selling it for. I'm not saying that he shouldn't make a profit but come on! Case in point is BG AM's. I placed 1st in my division at a another tourney that had 28 people. I won $85. I place 32 in BG out of 142 and won a $18 star roc. This seems way off. C'mon TD's give a little bit more so we keep coming back.



I don't think BG Ams is having a problem keeping people coming back.



And neither does KCWO, which in a couple of months will be the MB whipping boy for "bad" AM payouts for about the millionth* year in a row.


*actual number maybe be smaller

I'm becoming a little uneasy with the TD's who pass out vouchers to there store and then want 17 bucks for plastic. I can get the same plastic online for 14.



I don't know Discrafts, Gateways, etc. policy on this, but I am 100% sure about Innovas. Innova regulates how much their discs sell for. If you are a retailer and you sell a star disc for less than Innova tells you, they have the right and probably will (esp. if someone complains) stop selling to that retailer. This is to prevent competition that hurt disc sales. So when a TD sets his prices at a certain number (and 17 for a star disc is right on point), he is merely doing what he is supposed to.



This is not just related to the disc industry, but every wholesaler who wants to do good business in whatever industry they are in sets reatil price thresholds and will quit selling to anyone who advertises and sells cheaper.

I just finished 101 in adv bg ams, and still got 1 nice disc. I'm a little embaressed, and would have rather given it to the 32nd place finisher that got a star disc. In my humble opinion, if I finish 32nd or 101st, I don't expect anything no matter how big the tournament is. As long as I get a sweet players package, I'm cool.........I just have fun meeting and playing with different people across the country. I play a lot better when I play for money throughout the week with friends............... (skins/wolf/doubles)

Am tournaments are fun, learning experiences. It's about meeting, and playing with other players. From what I saw at BG, it's just an excuse for everybody to get together and party! It's also the best Am competition in the country, which makes you a better player.......priceless.


The city/county parks fees, gas money for volunteer course officials, pdga fees for each player, scorecards/pencils, signs, water coolers, banners, table rentals, sales tax, storage space, course maintenance, web site cost, graphic design, nice programs, I could go on.............

if you don't like the value you are getting for your entry, please don't return.



amen.

Let me start this by saying I am not flaming on anyone. These statements are well thought out and if I were talking to you (whoever is reading this) I would be speaking in a normal level tone. Not my drill instructor voice.

Did you know that they are required by the manufacturers to sell at or close to retail? Have you attempted to run an event and dealt with all of the work involved? Is there something inherent in Disc Golfers that makes them believe that nobody should ever make a profit from disc sales? Should the manufacturers just give discs away? Do you know anything about the retail environment? Did you know that most products are marked up 100% over the wholesale cost (in the clothing industry keystone is typically 400%)? How freaked out would you be if every TD kept 15% of all entry fees and sponsorship money for every tournament that you play?

We do not have true Amateurs in our sport. We have Pros that get paid in cash and we have Pros that get paid in plastic (that is easily converted to cash).

A TD buys at wholesale and is required by the manufacturers to "sell" at retail (or very close to it). Then either the TD or the local club makes a profit. If it is a club, then everyone benefits because most of that money is spent improving the club and the local courses.

If it is an individual, then they get to keep the profit. Keep the profits!!! Why, that is blasphemous!!! Someone should make a profit from working their tail off to run an event? How dare they? A TD deserves anything that they make and then some more.

As I see it, if you don�t like the way tournaments are run you have 2 choices: Start running events yourself or quit playing sanctioned events.

As an Am if you are worried about a payout then save your entry money and order your discs from your favorite internet retailer. At least this way you will be certain to get the payout you feel you deserve.

Kirk

Why is am payout becoming such a touchy issue lately? As Kirk has mentioned before, in the real world of sports, ams play for trophies only. I remember playing many am tournaments and getting a handful of discs if I played well. I also remember playing Fireant at the now defunct Meriweather course outside of Atlanta that was trophy only for the ams. No one ever complained. I only won one am tourney and that was Fireant. I have no clue where all of the plastic I won as an am is, but I can definitely show you were the one trophy is. My 2 cents.

Why is am payout becoming such a touchy issue lately? As Kirk has mentioned before, in the real world of sports, ams play for trophies only. I remember playing many am tournaments and getting a handful of discs if I played well. I also remember playing Fireant at the now defunct Meriweather course outside of Atlanta that was trophy only for the ams. No one ever complained. I only won one am tourney and that was Fireant. I have no clue where all of the plastic I won as an am is, but I can definitely show you were the one trophy is. My 2 cents.




The Memorial did a great job this year and set a good example for other big events by giving an awesome players pack and trophies for the top finishers.

i'm a big proponent of trophy only cheaper entries for Ams myself.... Adv field has 7 guys... top 3 get trophies. 15 guys... still top 3... maybe if theres something like 20+ you could do top 5. Entry fees of $10 bucks if no players pack (trophy only)... ~$15-20 or maybe more if there is a nice players pack. Maybe even provide lunch between rounds and be able to cut the lunch break to ~30-45 minutes?

awesome point that someone made about not remembering stacks of plastic they've won but remembers the trophy.

good to hear the constructive ideas from most in here... i know there are lots of schools of thought on what to do with Ams & payout

I have one MA2 1st place finish. I got one $9 disc as payout. I would much rather have a little plastic trophy. I have a job and buy the discs I want to throw. If you play for payout you should play Open.

This won't amount to much more than a "i concur" because i don't have any new ideas... still.

As an Am, and btw an am that usually takes back more than his entry fee in payout, I would still much rather pay a $10 entry fee and play for a trohpy, then pay whatever to get more plastic. Honestly, if I pay even $15 and know that (a) the TD gets a couple bucks for his time (b) the course and event look good and are run well and (c) I get round ratings, I feel like I have received my money's worth easily.

I'm much more likely to feel ripped off if I have to fork up $30 for a poor or mediocre event with good payout, then say $10-15 for a great event with little/no payout and extras.

thanks to all the TDs out there that are at least making this an option. I wish there were more of you out there.

The question seems to be....are you playing a tournament to meet new people, play new courses and challenge your game? or are you playing the tournament to try to prove you are better than others by walking out with the larger stack of discs? I agree with Krazyeye, I can buy my own plastic, and I usually try to find it for as cheap as I can (which is just common sense) so if I happen to win something extra at a tournament, then that is great. If you're worried about not getting your money's worth, perhaps you have the wrong intentions to begin with.

For what it is worth. When I whip your butt this weekend I expect to have the payout donated to adding baskets at Ingleside.

trying to put together a list of things/expectations for a tourney (yeah... will use it to create a poll... here's the list... can anyone think (try to be realistic) of other things to add?

People can vote for multiple items to try and see what is most important to people

(obviously realize that the more you add on the more you are saying you'd be willing to pay for entry... yes I know the TD might be able to get stuff donated if they work hard enough)

-->trophy (thinking custom made trophy discs)
-->'standard payout' (think of winner getting stacks of plastic and flat payout around the last places)
-->'nominal payout' (maybe a couple discs for the top few?)
-->'bigger payout' (higher entry fee but more chance of winning more stuff)
-->players packs (thinking like a tourney stamped disc, maybe $5 voucher at the tourney store and some other small 'goodies'... mini... snack.. etc?)
-->lunch
-->refreshment station (for hotter days, longer courses... gatorade, fruit, etc)

any other ideas?

i know of quite a few (as well as myself) that would go for $10 trophy only but if lunch and/or maybe a nominal players pack (like a tourney/club stamped mini) then i'd go for $15.

that being said... i'd certainly pay $40+ maybe once or so a year for a tourney that might provide trophy only, sweet players pack, lunch, and provided the VIP treatment feeling for people

(still waiting for someone to come in and make the 'TDs need the $ from plastic markup/payout to cover overhead')

For myself, a well-run tournament on a good course is worth $20 easily, with no payout or players pack. $20 for a day's or weekend's entertainment, for someone to provide me with a good, groomed course, all the organizational efforts, all the work in running the thing, etc. Few other organized weekend-long entertainments come as cheap.

A few odds & ends---

The Charleston Classic was, in its first few years, low-entry-fee, trophy-only, and filled. The Crooked Creek Classic was also trophy-only for years.

And that was in the days of DX plastic, when it meant more for Ams to win plastic because discs had a short lifespan and we were constantly replacing them.

In two of the events I've run recently, March Madness ($10 Am entry fee) filled in advance and the Stoney Hill Challenge ($18 Am entry fee, low payouts) did pretty well for an initial event. There's a market for low-fee, low-payout Am events.

There's a market for low-fee, low-payout Am events.



:eek: never heard of such a thing.

except for minis

It doesnt matter what you do, there will be someone complaining about it...
The guys who love to play but usually dont get any payout, of course want to see a good players pack. The guys who usually get payout complain when its pick your own plastic cause they have to stand in line afterwards and pick through stuff thats already been picked though. If you try to give prepackaged winnings, people complain cause they like to pick their own plastic...I agree with redseal king, up above.If you are consistantly upset about payout or the lack of, you may be playing for the wrong reasons....

And that was in the days of DX plastic, when it meant more for Ams to win plastic because discs had a short lifespan and we were constantly replacing them.




I am curious as to when and why the "plastic parade" began at PDGA events? It wasn't always this way.

Anyone care to drop some history?

Duane Utech (not active for many years now) in Michigan is credited with starting the big merch prizes for Ams in the early 90s. Those events were part of the bigger Can-Am Series.

Well, with the cost of gas getting out of hand, I'm going to be more picky about where I go. I doubt I'll be spending a couple hundred dollars to win a trophy. rWc3523