This weekend our course was holding water in naturally low areas. One of my approaches came in a little hot and went into a ditch on the other side of the basket. I tore off my shoes and socks and went to putt it out. The ditch got progressively deeper in such a way that it made a big difference whether I stood behind my disc or got to mark it with a mini and stand where my disc lie. The problem was that the water was a foot deep. How do you mark this lie? My minis all float, and even if I had a sinking one, no one would have been able to tell if I was behind it or not. The water was so murky you could barely see my putter as it was. My groupmates let me stick a 24" stick down into the mud to mark my lie where they could see it and I made the putt and went on. What would have been the best way to deal with this?

You get up to 5 meters behind/ directly in line with your lie/basket for casual water, without a penalty. You don't have to play from the water, if it is ruled "casual" water. If you need more than 5 meters to get a stance, you can move up to 5 more meters with 1 stroke penalty. Or you can call it unplayable and go to your previous lie, with one stroke.

803.05 Obstacles and Relief

C. Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players� equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole. The type of relief a player may obtain is based on the location of the obstacle and is limited as follows:
(1) Casual obstacles between the lie and the hole: A player may move obstacles which became a factor during the round as described by 803.05 B.
(2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player�s lie may be relocated to the <u>nearest lie</u> which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in accordance with 803.06.
(3) Casual obstacles to a run-up: The player may move the obstacle provided no part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole. No other relief is provided.

I understand the rules, but my question is how do you mark a lie in the water? In this case my lie was about 20' from the basket in the water, or 35-40' from the other side of the water. I defintetely wanted to take my putt from the water. My question has to do with physically marking my lie in the water.

warning for playing barefoot

: ) :

...sounds like you and your group found the best solution given the situation.

C. Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players� equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round.

(2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player�s lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in accordance with 803.06.

Do I understand this rule correctly, in that if a branch that is disconnected from a tree impedes my stance and is in front of my marker, then I am allowed to relocate along the line of play to a point where the branch no longer imepedes?

If so, then at what point does a branch become a branch. Would a stick that is simply annoying to stand on count, or just a very large branch. If the latter is the case, how would one make such a determination?

If you can take a stance such that part of your supporting point is on the playing surface, then you stand on it. If it's big enough that you wouldn't be able to have part of your foot on the ground, then you can move back slightly until you can get a supporting point on the playing surface.

I understand the rules, but my question is how do you mark a lie in the water? In this case my lie was about 20' from the basket in the water, or 35-40' from the other side of the water. I defintetely wanted to take my putt from the water. My question has to do with physically marking my lie in the water.

Get a heavier mini.

Actually, you cannot use a stick to mark your lie, as according to 803.03 you must either mark your disc with a mini, or you may use your disc, without moving it, as a marker. Based on what you did, you did neither which is a mis-marked disc and should have resulted in a warning. No re-throw is called for and I am guessing that you did not commit this horrendous crime again, so no penalities were called.

Now, if you wanted to use a mini-marker that floated, you could have done so. You need only replace it if it floated off, again and again......

Now, if you wanted to use a mini-marker that floated, you could have done so. You need only replace it if it floated off, again and again......


Nope, only if you're Jesus or it's winter and the surface of the water could be called a playing surface.

I understand the rules, but my question is how do you mark a lie in the water? In this case my lie was about 20' from the basket in the water, or 35-40' from the other side of the water. I defintetely wanted to take my putt from the water. My question has to do with physically marking my lie in the water.

Get a heavier mini.

Carry a small roll of medical tape in your bag. When that situation arises, tape a rock to your mini. To make it PDGA legal, announce that you are taping the rock to your mini, "to reduce abrasion." :D

The water was so murky you could barely see my putter as it was. My groupmates let me stick a 24" stick down into the mud to mark my lie where they could see it and I made the putt and went on. What would have been the best way to deal with this?



You could have stood behind your disc (or knelt on a towel behind your disc). If the other players in your group questioned your lie because of the murky water, you could have simply asked any one of them to wade over and verify the legality of your stance. :)

You use your thrown disc as the mark and putt with another disc.

If you can take a stance such that part of your supporting point is on the playing surface, then you stand on it. If it's big enough that you wouldn't be able to have part of your foot on the ground, then you can move back slightly until you can get a supporting point on the playing surface.



That's a pretty restrictive interpretation that isn't supported by the way I read the rules.

If I have to contort myself to get my foot in behind my mini to take a stance, it is an obstacle to my stance. As the rule reads, I can take relief.

It doesn't say "Prevents" like 803.04E does, it describes it as an "obstacle."

Or am I missing something?

I know you're a big fan of the "well if you don't like the stance, don't throw there... play it as it lies" type of logic from ball golf, but in ball golf if my foot would be on a sprinkler head or a cart path when I take my stance, I get a free drop...

If I have to contort myself to get my foot in behind my mini to take a stance, it is an obstacle to my stance. As the rule reads, I can take relief.



His question was in regard to a stick that was partly in front of the lie along with crossing thru the LOP behind the mini so it couldn't be moved. No relief is needed if you can get part of your foot on the playing surface within 30cm behind the marker. If not because the branch/log is too big, then you can move back just enough to get clear for a stance.

It's not just sufficient to get part of your foot on the playing surface with in 30cm behind the marker. You need to be able to do it without moving the stick that is partly in front of the lie. Stepping on the stick will most likely move it, so relief should be granted.

You can move it since taking the stance and throwing are all part of making the throw which allows incidental movement 803.05B. In addition, the rule allows obstacles to be moved such as bush branches in the process of taking a stance as long as it's "least" movement per rule 803.04D.

You use your thrown disc as the mark and putt with another disc.



That is what I would normally have done, however in this case there was a drop off behind where my disc lie and I wanted to stand on the ledge my disc was on. My mini would not stay on the playing surface (float away).

Shove your mini into the mud so it stays put -- it doesn't matter if the other people on your card can see it or not. If they doubt your integrity, they can wade out their and check it.

That way the mini is marking the lie on the playing surface, you are making a legal throw, and anyone who wants to be a jerk and question your integrity has to get his feet wet to do so.

there's no way water of this depth should ever be casual regardless of circumstance, this whole conversation is based on td error.

there's no way water of this depth should ever be casual regardless of circumstance, this whole conversation is based on td error.



I think I missed that rule, where is it specified how deep casual water can be ?

I recall playing an A-Tier where the majority of the course was under at least 10" of water for most of the last round.

Where do you go for relief when the entire hole from tee to green is under water ?

there's no way water of this depth should ever be casual regardless of circumstance, this whole conversation is based on td error.



I think I missed that rule, where is it specified how deep casual water can be ?

I recall playing an A-Tier where the majority of the course was under at least 10" of water for most of the last round.

Where do you go for relief when the entire hole from tee to green is under water ?




If the course was flooded I would just relieve myself in the water. :D

You can move it since taking the stance and throwing are all part of making the throw which allows incidental movement 803.05B. In addition, the rule allows obstacles to be moved such as bush branches in the process of taking a stance as long as it's "least" movement per rule 803.04D.



Something weird about this statement...
Taking a stance is part of the throw? So incidental movement is ok if caused by the stance?

I always thought the least movement was no movement and you should not be moving branches during your stance.

I've called many people on this and I will have a lot of apologizing to do if they can, by Chuck's interpretation, move stuf throughout their stance and throw.

As for minimal movement when taking a stance... getting into position, you can move flexible stuf, as long as it is back in position when you finish establishing your stance.

If you bump or brush or just plain smack your hand into a branch or something "during your throw" is how I have always seen incidental contact.

Taking a stance is part of the throw? So incidental movement is ok if caused by the stance?

I always thought the least movement was no movement and you should not be moving branches during your stance.



I don't disagree with you in terms of how the rule is written. However, the actual interpretation as played in the field, and observed without correction by marshals and officials, is to allow a player to find a positon where they are standing or kneeling in a bush or fir tree with minimal bending, but not necessarily requiring "least movement" which might be achieved if the player lay on the ground. Don't you agree that's the common interpretation or do you make players lie on the ground?

:) I have made them take the stance with no movement.

and I get on players about missing their mark on the run up.

I don't know all the rules by rote, I feel I know the spirit of the rules and I let that guide my calls.