so i had a new one happen to me at idlewild this spring.

my third, or maybe fourth, throw on hole 18 landed inside/on top of a rotting raccoon carcass. were this to happen in a tourney, does the player get relief?

I would treat it as a solid obstacle as you wouldn't be able to stand on the playing surface and take a stance behind it.

E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a
player from taking a legal stance within
30 centimeters directly behind the
marker disc, the player shall take his
or her stance immediately behind that
obstacle on the line of play. The player
must comply with all the provisions of
803.04 A other than being within 30
centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

(granted I doubt a rotting carcass would be very solid)

This one could be argued as a possible health hazard (I'd like to see Chuck's take in this case.)

Considering the chance of catching some biological nasties, could you use the harmful animal rule (803.05C)?

I would treat it as a casual obstacle under 803.05C

C. Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players� equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole. The type of relief a player may obtain is based on the location of the obstacle and is limited as follows:
(1) Casual obstacles between the lie and the hole: A player may move obstacles which became a factor during the round as described by 803.05 B.
(2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player�s lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in accordance with 803.06.

Harmful animal (potential health hazard) that shouldn't be moved. Move your lie back up to 5 meters along the line of play and move on.

We had a similar occurrence here in Tulsa. Not a raccoon, but a possum. I landed near it, almost on it, on my drive, and attempted to putt from behind it. It wouldn't have been a problem, but I was downwind . Talk about rushing through my normal routine...

Hold your breath and putt quickly /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Good drive+dead possum = 2 putt par

possums and coons are nothing- here in va it's cattle!!

possums and coons are nothing- here in va it's cattle!!



Cattle?!? YIKES!!

fire up the grill

For this case, I like Krupicka's Solid Object interpretation since there's no direct hazard like bees under Casual Relief any more than the equivalent of getting poison ivy from touching it. Smells do not currently warrant casual relief and those who play with the old guys (and at Biscoe's and Moody's) recognize that...

(now, now I'm talking about cigar smokers... :))

I took relief from a nice pile of dog doo at the KC Wide Open a few years back. I think on the same course there was a nice pile right on a tee. Yum.

I'd give anyone on my card casual relief from a rotten raccoon, opossum or Virginia cow.

fire up the grill



Hahahaha! I'm with ya on that one!

if the animal had already started to decompose it would be considered part of the course, much like a mound of dirt. moving it would be out of the question, as would relief. play it where it decays.

Besides the obvious health hazards caused by any rotting flesh, both raccoons and opossums are carriers of many nasty diseases , for example rabies. Something killed this animal and it may not have been old age, or another animal. I would encourage players to take relief from this dangerous (albeit dead) animal.

YOU can go ahead and play from the rotten critter. I'm taking a step back.

There is a significant difference between a rotten animal body and a "mound of dirt". Like Crushn said, many of these types of animals are carriers of rabies or tuleramia in the case of rabbits. Jays and crows are carriers of West Nile. I ain't messin' with any of them.

I think casual releif makes the most sense. I think Chuck understimated the health issues with a dead varmint. The lawyer in me thinks a policy of allowing five meters makes great sense . Lets say it was a junior who landed near the carcass. Where do we want that kid to throw from? If you tell that kid to play right behind it that kid's mom is going to forbid that kid from playing in your tournaments in the future.

Mark, I had to play off this critter today at Idlewild. Someone tossed his bones into the runoff creek hidden behind the rose bushes where the fairway opens up. I threw a buzz to the top of the hill and then tried to crush an Avenger SS down the middle...hit the last tree to the left and ricochet to the right...so there I am...waist deep in a run off creek trying my best to see an opening for a tommy out and my feet are crunching on some bones of a dead something...you know you are in bad shape when you gotta use a dead animal skull for footing. He wasn't smelly anymore...he was picked clean and white.

While I don't disagree that dead carcasses might pose a health hazard, they will continue to decay as many do all over the playing surface at various times. I'm not sure a case could be made that this particular spot is more or less likely to result in a health issue. In fact, I suspect since you can actually see it, a player will be more careful than they will at most times when your shoes can be crawling with germs without obviously ever walking in an apparently risky area. Regarding liability, the Unsafe Lie option is always available so the player is responsible for making the decision to take 5m relief at any time whether for health risks, poison ivy, prickers, unsafe footing, etc.

Regarding liability, the Unsafe Lie option is always available so the player is responsible for making the decision to take 5m relief at any time whether for health risks, poison ivy, prickers, unsafe footing, etc.



The Unsafe Lie option is not in the current rule books. The Unplayable Lie option is.

Correct. Unplayable Lie rule allows the player to declare an Unsafe Lie and relocate without confirmation from anyone although it does cost one penalty throw. The Unplayable rule used to be called the Unsafe Lie rule.

This weekend at TX States on a 700 ft hole, right in the middle of hte fairway, about 50 feet from the water, there was a dead, decomposing duck carcass. It had went kamakazie and the ducks head, neck, and 1/3 of its body where in the ground, the bottom 2/3 of the ducks body where above ground. It was to the point where most of hte flesh was gone and you could see the bones. It was knarly.

Once Mother Nature has finished her work on the dead animal, it is no longer a problem. However, a "in the process" of decomposing animal IS a problem. I also think that casual relief is the call.

How big does the dead carcass have to be before casual relief would be justified? Dead fly on the ground? Dead slug? A dead mouse? Dead robin? Dead snake? I get 5m relief from all of these? Slippery slope...

Is it 5 meters relief....or minimal relief? Wouldn't "nearest lie" on the line of play be immediately behind the carcass? Not much change on the dead fly. I've never read "no more than 5 meters" to mean player can choose any spot on that 5-meter line.

Could we consider the "decaying carcass" is not specifically called for in the rules, and the nearest rule applies is casual relief (which are basically things you can't or shouldn't want to step in)? If not, I'd grant the casual relief and be "wrong, but reasonable".

How big does the dead carcass have to be before casual relief would be justified? Dead fly on the ground? Dead slug? A dead mouse? Dead robin? Dead snake? I get 5m relief from all of these? Slippery slope...



Too big and nasty to kick away or step on, arrived on the spot too recently for someone to have already removed it with a shovel. Not that hard.

Oh, and the majority of the group group still has to agree with it, so there's the necessary double check.

I've asked the Rules Committee for comment. They made the Casual Relief rule more restricted than before by eliminating mud, for example, in the current version. So I'd be surprised if they felt Casual Relief was appropriate here versus the Solid Object option with a one throw penalty if you choose Unplayable. But we'll see. May take a while since we still haven't heard back on the "knee on towel" controversy.

I agree that there is a slippery slope here. A dead field mouse is much different from a dead racoon or...[larger varmint]. I wonder if this presumably rare situation would be best suited by allowing the group or, if needed, an official, to rule on whether Solid Object (just stand behind it and quit complaining) or Causal Relief (time to call Animal Control for a pick up) is appropriate.

Dead bird, kick it out of the way. Dead racoon with half eaten guts, casual relief.

Why is this so hard? It's disc golf, not rocket science. :confused:

I agree with the premise of "play it where it lies", but fer cryin' out loud! You have to stick your foot in a rotten racoon? PUHLEEESE. :mad:

regardless of how you end up marking the lie, kicking the dead bird out of the way - if a part of it is in front of at rest disc - would be a one stroke penalty, wouldnt it?

What's the difference between relief from solid object & casual? On the line of play, immediately behind the object; vs. on the line of play, at the nearest lie? The casual rule limits relief to 5 meters, but such carcasses are rarely an issue. Or am I overlooking something obvious?

how about the seinfeld version?

the disc is lodged in blowhole of a whale that has washed onto shore at a beachside course.

What's the difference between relief from solid object & casual? On the line of play, immediately behind the object; vs. on the line of play, at the nearest lie? The casual rule limits relief to 5 meters, but such carcasses are rarely an issue. Or am I overlooking something obvious?



Solid object makes you play from next to the carcass ( the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play). Casual relief let's you keep your distance from the carcass.

For Casual relief:
"the player�s lie may be relocated to the
nearest lie which is no closer to the hole,
is on the line of play, and is not more than
five meters from the original lie,"

Thus both rules put you immediately behind the carcass.

For Casual relief:
"the player�s lie may be relocated to the
nearest lie which is no closer to the hole,
is on the line of play, and is not more than
five meters from the original lie,"

Thus both rules put you immediately behind the carcass.



Not the way I read it. The 'up to 5 meters' allows for interpretation of what the safe distance is. For casual water, we don't make the thrower stand right on the edge of the bank where one false move or slip will result in tumbling in. For live animal concerns, we don't make the player take a stance right next to a bee's nest and hope he throws in a manner that won't disrupt the bees (Better not pivot on that lead foot, Joe!), or right next to the mouth of a badger hole, rattlesnake, goose nest with eggs or similar.

Perhaps that is wrong, and perhaps the wording could be modified to 'nearest feasible safe lie', but that is my interpretation of 'casual' relief.

if the "nearest lie which is no closer to the hole" places you on what you deem unsafe lie, there is a one stroke remedy available. moving farther back on the LOP is expressly not available.

if the "nearest lie which is no closer to the hole" places you on what you deem unsafe lie, there is a one stroke remedy available. moving farther back on the LOP is expressly not available.



Understood that an unsafe lie option is also available. But the casual lie rule allows for further back on the line of play for objects understood to be 'casual'. If the TD states 'We have a poison ivy problem, treat all ivy as casual relief', then you can move back on the LOP to avoid the hazard. Common sense would indicate that the relocation wouldn' t be limited to the point that if you moved your 'sandaled foot' one millimeter during the throw or follow through, that you would end up with a nice ivy rash on your foot that night.

so how do you limit the ability of a player taking the full 5 meters if that provided a better line? i would still say that you could move back behind the ivy, but only to the nearest available ivy-free lie.

ps - my feets are pretty much immune at this point. i think the ivy from my Pennsylvania youth was a lot stronger than this Texas stuff. this stuff down here barely shows up, if at all.

Ah, that is a rub. How do you stop people from twisting a rule to their advantage. Exists for this rule and others, and sometimes you can't. But in this situation, consider the following:

- In most cases, moving back is a disadvantage, not an advantage. Not always if obstacles come into play and so on, but if the dead animal is on or near the fairway, moving back (on LOP) is generally not an advantage. If your on the edge of the fairway, true LOP relief will pull you further off the fairway. If your're deep in the brush behind the basket, LOP relief will take you deeper.

- The majority of the group has to approve. If someone is taking excessive relief in an obvious attempt to get away from a different obstacle from which relief is not permitted as they avoid the casual obstacle, call them on it.

- Accept the fact that not all rules are 100% fair, and not all people will fully follow the spirit of 'play it where it lies' if they can bend a rule to their advantage. That's life, and one of the reasons the old saying of 'if you want to learn the true nature of a person, play a round of golf with them' came to be.

Of course, one could eliminate casual relief in general and make peole take the unsafe lie penalty in all cases. But we may not want to encourage people to play from things like fire ant mounds, bee's nests and so on just to save a throw.

You're lucky on the ivy thing. After repeated exposures, I can just about get it by walking in the general area of a patch.

good arguments, tim. although "Accept the fact that not all rules are 100% fair" could be used just as effectively to argue for playing it where it lies, decay or not.

do players in some regions really take relief from fire ants? a hornets nets or underground hive, sure... but fire ants?

I would assume so. On my property, there are large ant mounds with ants that will bite you if disturbed. Not to the level of fire ants, but you don't want to plant your foot for any length of time on these mounds or your lower leg will be covered by an angry swarm of them.

I think that you should just kneel on a towel behind your mark...

:D

...and relieve yourself on the animal casually... :D

My question is can we get relief from some of the dead horses on the Rules board? :D

No way. There are too many of them.

...and relieve yourself on the animal casually... :D



Which makes me think about smelly living creatures....

Do you have an idea how to evict a pair of nesting turkey vultures? They are beginning to nest in the same tree for the third season in a row about 20 feet in front of a tee. And the odor is .... cough cough choke..... a bit nasty, even a few minutes after they fly away. They nest in the hollow center of a dead tree so if I can find the right chemical or substance that might discourage them I could spray it into the nesting area. A suggestion of spraying spent cylinder oil that would get into their feathers makes me worry about the long term contamination of the area, though it may work. I've heard the same suggestion about groundhogs because they don't like the stuff in their fur ... but pouring spent oil in holes doesn't seem like the Green thing to do. I can shoot them but I don't want to touch the things once they die. Really it is gag central around them. They smell like rotting flesh even alive!!!!

There will be a PDGA event there in late June and I need to get rid of them long before that.

Seriously any suggestions???

Get more younger players on the course. With too many old fossils playing it, the vultures figure they'll soon be rewarded.... ;)

Seriously, I would talk with someone in the biology department at a nearby university for advice or perhaps someone in the Nature Conservancy to get you to a knowledgeable person.

I don't know Chuck ... most fossils don't stink ... then again after a few hours doing course work maybe at least one does develop an odor... but hopefully not a death odor.

hey john,
blast the smelly so and so's, use gloves to clean up the mess. while distasteful, it is an inexpensive permanent solution that won't disrupt anything else ecologically and they aren't an endangered species.

I can sneak up on them and maybe get a .22 into one of them.
If I pull out the 12 gauge the mess will be extensive!!
Getting them to fly away would be preferable.

I'd argue that maybe you killed that animal with your shot and you need a hunting license for that, not a PDGA card. I'd consult with the DNR!

I can sneak up on them and maybe get a .22 into one of them.
If I pull out the 12 gauge the mess will be extensive!!
Getting them to fly away would be preferable.



mess will (theoretically) clean itself up between critters and a good rainstorm.

otherwise maybe place some sort of obstruction in their preferred spot (if you can get to it to spray oil you should be able to get to it to board it up so to speak).

The tree was hit by lightning several years ago and the remaining trunk is about 20 feet tall and split from top to bottom. It is about 3 1/2 feet in diameter at the base. Getting at the nest (which I have just read is on the ground) with spray is not a problem. The babies are all white (who would have guessed?) and kind of cute ... relative to their parents. They do have attitude though, hissing at anyone who comes too close. I don't think the parents have laid yet this season.
Tree is also covered with poison ivy and not where I can get a tractor near to drag away if I did cut it.

Buzzards aka Turkey Vultures are a protected species so the .22 and 12ga may get you in more hot water than you want.

The City of San Antonio has a similar problem with Grackles roosting in trees along the River Walk. Their solution is firecrackers. This is definitely more "Green" than a shot gun.

For the perfect "green" solution hang up pictures of Al and Tippy Gore. Maybe your buzzards will figure two other buzzards have moved in and they'll move on! :o