I JUST ORDERED THE NEW EXCALIBER AND I WAS JUST WONDERING IF ANY ONE HAD ANY OTHER INFO ON THIS DISC!!!???!!! I LIKE THE SPEED OF THE DESTROYER BUT IT DOESNT SEEM STABLE ENOUGH FOR BIG ANNI BOOMS. I HEAR THIS NEW DISC IS A MIX OF A MAX AND A DESTROYER.....IS THIS TRUE?????? I JUST WANT A LITTLE INFO FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS ACTUALLY THROWN THIS DISC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STOP YELLING!!!

What up Hall. U playing tonight?

1. What is up with all the caps?
2. This is the Rules and Standards Forum, not the Equipment.

The mods will move the thread hopefully. Sounds like Phillip is excited about the next disc of the month. :D

My son used it this last weekend for a 7th place in the advanced division at Bowling Green. (not too bad for a 12 year-old) It is an EXCELLENT disc. The simplest way to describe it, I think, is to think of it as a "Destroyer - X". (As a matter of fact, I joked with JP and Jeb of Innova that they could have called it the DX, but those two letters were already taken.)

Anyway, it is a lot like the Destroyer, but more stable. It would be good for those who like a Destroyer but think it is too understable, or into a bit of a headwind when they might otherwise throw a Destroyer, or for control when you want good distance, but must have it come back at the end. In conditions where a Destroyer is adequately stable I'd give the nod to the Destroyer over the Excaliber for distance as due to its higher stability, the Excaliber will come back harder at the end of its flight.

Definitely a keeper

My son used it this last weekend for a 7th place in the advanced division at Bowling Green. (not too bad for a 12 year-old) It is an EXCELLENT disc.



He he, that kid could do the same score with a Teebird...

I have thrown one. they bomb just like the destroyer but have enough stablity for the big arms.

I have recently placed a new disc order and ordered 10 of the the new Excalibers. I should have these discs within the next couple of weeks.

I just got two in the mail and I found them to be no more stable and possibly less stable than my destroyers at equal weights. Anybody else have the same issue? I would love a more stable destroyer (Excalibur) if it is so.

X Cals are way Overstable, I have only thrown the ECHO plastic version. Almost as stable as my Champ Firebirds.

I just got two in the mail and I found them to be no more stable and possibly less stable than my destroyers at equal weights. Anybody else have the same issue? I would love a more stable destroyer (Excalibur) if it is so.



I have thrown many at different weights and all are more stable than any destroyer...

I only threw one of the two so maybe I just have a "weak one"...it was surprising though

X Cals are way Overstable, I have only thrown the ECHO plastic version. Almost as stable as my Champ Firebirds.



For real, Schwebby? Distance of a destroyer and stability of a FB???? Sounds cool to me! You're talkin backhand, right??? ;)

I have bought one eco and one regular star, first impression taking ours out of the box was the eco had a huge dome. All of our eco's had a pop top dome almost 25% larger than any others.

Testing them it seems the eco are more overstable with that dome, but they are both very overstable. I really think it is flying similar to the max just a little faster. To me the destroyer was just stable and unpredictable, depending on the plastic, with pro being the best. The xcaliber is very hard to turnover and when you do it definatly comes out of it. It seems as though the xcaliber is more predictable.

As any disc with more stability would be...

After all, stability ='s predictability.

150 class xcaliber = 50 caliber!

(if they ever exist... which i'm thinking not since theres supposed to be an issue w/ getting a destroyer down to that weight)

150 class xcaliber = 50 caliber!

(if they ever exist... which i'm thinking not since theres supposed to be an issue w/ getting a destroyer down to that weight)




Sweet I want one...Baby Eagle :cool:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll...p=32&fsoo=2 (http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&dfsp=32&catref=C6& satitle=x+caliber&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&sabfmt s=1&saobfmts=insif&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi= &seller=1&sass=frisbeerancher&fsop=32&fsoo=2)

I would like to trade a couple 175s for a couple of lighter ones. never thrown, and i will pay your shipping if you want to swap.

I would have to say after throwing the excal all weekend at Rockwall it is WAY more stable than any destroyer ive ever thrown. it is a great disc and i think this one will be in my bag for a long time!!!!!!!!!! i appreciate all of the info on this disc!!!!!

Climo has one of the super special ECO excalibers. His actually feels like CE plastic. I threw it a couple of times and it was fast and stable. I threw it with anyhzer and it just flew straight on an anny angle and then came back. I didn't get any real distance in the couple of throws I tried. Climo's got it dialed in. He threw it probably 100' out over water on a huge hyzer into a 15-20 mph headwind and it flew perfectly as if there were no wind at all.

What do you mean his feels like CE plastic? What kind of CE plastic?

It was opaque/translucent and really stiff. It had swirls of darker/lighter shades of green and it let quite a bit of light through. It really reminded me of old CE and makes me wonder what was reground to make it, although some other Star discs come out really stiff and clearish...Innova makes some SWEET plastic that almost no one ever sees or throws. Kenny also has this old proto Champion Wraith that is gold and stiff and flies faster and more stable than any other Wraith I've seen. Being the Champ has its advantages I guess... :D

I just got my two eco (mint green) xcal's today but it started to rain just as I was going to the park to give them a test flight.
They look like a faster max with a major pop top.
They fell great should be in the back pac bag for a long time.
cant wait to JAM on them.

my $.02:
I have 2 ECHO and 2 regular xcals. The ECHO seems harder and domier, while the regular seems softer and slightly flatter. Granted I picked the regular outta the box first and thought it felt like normal star plastic, but in comparison to the ECHO, the ECHO just seems like a different feeling, harder plastic. In terms of the flights, stable stable stable. Not super far, not super fast, but stable pigs they are. I threw them along with some destroyers(star, pro, champ), and for good distance, they didn't really compare. Then I threw into a big headwind for a while. These bad boys rocked. Slight hyzer release and they just flew. The ECHO seemed slightly more stable(both 175gm) the regular star flipped flat, no turn, and big hyzer tail at the end(one 175gm, one 170gm). All in all, really impressed, and they will be holding a spot in the bag. I feel like these are going to help a lot of people with predictability in the wind off the tee. Get out and throw 'em for yourself, you won't be disappointed.

Where to get the ECO plastic....I've got four star stamp and two x-out in star the all feel great....stiff rim and soft middle....perfect :D

Got mine Monday. 170, white. This disc is pretty nice to look at and throw. Very glad that I got one of the lighter weights. My buddy has some 175s that are crazy stable. Mine flies like a TeeRex on crack. Almost the same D as my Destroyers, only in a straight line. Fades hard at the end, but skips big too. I like it. KP

got one from vegan ray today- boy is that plastic slick!!!

I threw mine today for the first time side by side with a new 174 esp predator into a 15-20+ headwind.
They had the same S fight with the x cal going about 50 feet more.
This disc will give a new meaning to GO BIG OR GO HOME!!!!

My thoughts on the XCaliber - Very reliable disc. It is also very fast. It has enough speed that it flies along a flight pattern that is different enough from a Max to be very useful. Its speed enables it to keep that straight line (what seems to be) about 15% longer. For me this is the difference between 350 and 400 feet on a straight line.

It definitely has that Destroyer speed. Into a stiff headwind it seems to hold a line similar to a Destroyer, which gives it a definite spot in my bag. I'm a big fan of the Destroyer, and now I feel comfortable that I can get some nice distance regardless of the wind conditions.

This based on the flight of both a white star and a mint eco, both at 175g and compared to star versions of Max and Destroyer both at 175g.

I just bought 2 of these and they are less overstable than my Destroyers. They have the same stability as my beat Star FireBird. This is not what I was looking for. I'm very disappointed. I can't seem to find an Innova disc to replace my Flicks.

I just bought 2 of these and they are less overstable than my Destroyers. They have the same stability as my beat Star FireBird. This is not what I was looking for. I'm very disappointed. I can't seem to find an Innova disc to replace my Flicks.




Were they production runs? I have heard the regular Star ones aren't as overstable as the 1st ones.

Find one with a dome. The ecos are pretty stable. I have thrown 3-4 different ones and all of them won't fly like a flick.

The white ones are very, very sweet! They fly more stable than the Pro version regardless of wind conditions.

They did not have much glide at the end of their flight which makes for pinpoint accuracy on the longer technical shots.

Definately a great addition to Innovas lineup!

I threw one the other day. Very fast and straight flyer until it ran out of gas and then it dove left. I'm not getting a lot more out of these wider wing discs. Your results may be different.

I had a first run eco star that was very domey. It had no where near the stability of a star max like they describe it. In the wind I will throw a flat sidearm and it will turn and roll. Not even as stable as my destroyers or wraiths, and no where near a Max. I have another one coming Monday, hopefully it will be better.

I wish that INNOVA made a disc that felt as good to forehand as the Flick does. But, at least for now, the Z Flick is still in the bag. I haven't tried a MAX yet, but I have held one, and the top just isn't flat enough. I also use the Flick to roll, and I don't see the Xcalibur doing that. Fortunately, it is a very nice backhand driver. KP

I had a first run eco star that was very domey. It had no where near the stability of a star max like they describe it. In the wind I will throw a flat sidearm and it will turn and roll. Not even as stable as my destroyers or wraiths, and no where near a Max. I have another one coming Monday, hopefully it will be better.



My domey eco xcaliber is just as overstable as my max.
The only thing that might be giving you issues is that a forehand will get more spin and over power the disc.
I had a BIG arm in madison throw my eco and it poped up, flipped a little and them halled a** to about 500+feet. If Brent can put a little hizer on them and have them flipp up and go over 500 on a hizer they are not that flippy.

I had a first run eco star that was very domey. It had no where near the stability of a star max like they describe it. In the wind I will throw a flat sidearm and it will turn and roll. Not even as stable as my destroyers or wraiths, and no where near a Max. I have another one coming Monday, hopefully it will be better.



My domey eco xcaliber is just as overstable as my max.
The only thing that might be giving you issues is that a forehand will get more spin and over power the disc.
I had a BIG arm in madison throw my eco and it poped up, flipped a little and them halled a** to about 500+feet. If Brent can put a little hizer on them and have them flipp up and go over 500 on a hizer they are not that flippy.



I'll 2nd that.

I had a first run eco star that was very domey. It had no where near the stability of a star max like they describe it. In the wind I will throw a flat sidearm and it will turn and roll. Not even as stable as my destroyers or wraiths, and no where near a Max. I have another one coming Monday, hopefully it will be better.



My domey eco xcaliber is just as overstable as my max.
The only thing that might be giving you issues is that a forehand will get more spin and over power the disc.
I had a BIG arm in madison throw my eco and it poped up, flipped a little and them halled a** to about 500+feet. If Brent can put a little hizer on them and have them flipp up and go over 500 on a hizer they are not that flippy.




Yep Moose was popping 500+ with the Eco-Xcalibers I gave him. It was amazing to watch. He's starting to get the 360 drive down.

Josh-

Brent is NOT doing 360's and still getting 500+
Brent is also throwing a red porduction run that he is getting a little concave NOT the first run's.

My domey eco xcaliber is just as overstable as my max.
The only thing that might be giving you issues is that a forehand will get more spin and over power the disc.
I had a BIG arm in madison throw my eco and it poped up, flipped a little and them halled a** to about 500+feet. If Brent can put a little hizer on them and have them flipp up and go over 500 on a hizer they are not that flippy.



Just so you know forehand shots generate less spin (but more power). That is the main reason they don't travel as far as a backhand shot. If they generated more spin they would always travel farther... because everyone can throw harder forehand than backhand. That is why pitchers don't throw backhand.

Josh-

Brent is NOT doing 360's and still getting 500+
Brent is also throwing a red porduction run that he is getting a little concave NOT the first run's.



Neither did Moose. He is hitting the 500+ without the 360.

I just said he was practicing it so just imagine the distance then after he perfects it. He is throwing the eco-mint green xcalibers Pat.

I would say forehand definitely generates more speed (and less spin), but not necessarily more power. Just the same, pitchers are interested in generating speed, not necessarily power.

Tell me the difference between throwing power and throwing speed.

Power is a measure of work done per unit time in typical units of Watts or Joules/second
Speed is a measure of rate of change of position (scalar) in typical units of meters/second, feet/second, miles per hour, etc.
j/k, I have no idea what they're trying to say.

Tell me the difference between throwing power and throwing speed.

Speed is the forward movement of the object being thrown and power is the available energy that can be transferred to the object. I think of the difference as being comparable to the difference between powerful athletes like boxers and speed athletes like baseball pitchers. When the pitcher releases the ball he wants the ball to be traveling at the highest possible speed. A boxer wants to make contact at the moment that the highest amount of energy can be transferred to the opponent's body. The boxer can generate more power by keeping his fist close to his body on impact. On the other hand, the pitcher must extend the ball far away from his body so the whip can be longer in order to generate higher speeds. Boxers don't usually swing wildly with their arms extended and pitchers don't usually throw backhand or any style that would bring the hand close to the body.

It's my understanding that a forehand throw extends the length of the whip further away from the body than the backhand does. Increasing the overall speed of the disc per amount of energy used - the disc flicks off the ends of the fingers. The backhand brings the disc in close to the body where the power can be maximized. With more power the thrower can generate high spin and high forward velocity at the same time. Hope that makes sense i'm just thinking aloud here

I think the term power is being misused here. I think what you guys are talking about has more to do with momentum. Power means nothing in DG...we're throwing tiny pieces of plastic that weigh a minute fraction of our body weight. The only way power would be an issue is if there were no max weights. Mass X Velocity. The spin does complicate things, but power should not even be in the discussion.

If you had to throw a disc to break through a wall, how would you throw it? Backhand or forehand? And that's your answer. Anyone can throw things harder/faster forehand but because of spin, backhand throws go farther.

BTW the boxing example is completely useless.

in this case, "power" dictates speed.

The amount of "power" you put behind your throw determines how much speed the disc will begin travelling with. The disc's characteristics and those of its flightpath then take over.

It's possible to throw a disc with a ton of "power" but not much speed because your technique is bad. Given the same disc and technique, however, X amount of "power" will always result in the same speed.

Just because you don't see how the example applies doesn't mean it's a useless analogy. I would certainly choose to throw backhand into the wall. If I had the skill I would probably choose the 360 backhand as that style and body position at release allow the thrower to impart way more momentum on the disc than a forehand throw.

Just because you don't see how the example applies doesn't mean it's a useless analogy. I would certainly choose to throw backhand into the wall. If I had the skill I would probably choose the 360 backhand as that style and body position at release allow the thrower to impart way more momentum on the disc than a forehand throw.



I too would throw backhand b/c that is what I am most practiced and consistent at executing. However, I must agree with Rich and concede that forehand throws result in greater momentum. Momentum is only mass X velocity. Rich is right in that pitchers throw fastest with a forehand delivery, however most pitchers do not throw sidearm but rather overhand. So I think that an overhand throw would probably have the most momentum of all out of the hand. The only reason that these throws do not travel as far as backhand throws is because of the effect of spin on disc flight. The beauty of discs compared to other projectiles is that they actually fly. And that is why this is not a sport of power, buy a sport of technique and speed (most people that throw further than average DO NOT look like Avery Jenkins).

The world record disc speed was set throwing backhand not forehand.

I think something people are forgetting in a speed discussion is that a disc speed isn't just determined by the arm. The entire body becomes a launching mechanism for a disc.

Even on a forehand, the arm speed is not the sole determiner of speed or power -- the last place that touches the disc are the pads of the fingers, and with a flick, a lot of speed and power are determined by the strength and grip of the hand releasing the disc. It takes strong wrist/finger muscles to impart the maximum speed and power to a disc.

With a backhand, the launching mechanics are entirely different -- wrist and finger strength isn't as important, because the hand essentially becomes the end of a catapult -- it is the entire body coiling and uncoiling like a whip that imparts speed and power to the disc.

I think that in theory, if players are in shape, have good form, and a strong upper body in particular, that a backhand has the greatest potential for both speed and power -- but you have to have more muscles working in harmony to make this happen.

For a flick, a lot less pieces have to fit together to throw really hard --- the basic muscles and mechanics of throwing a forehand hard are similar to many other sports... throwing a forehand in the right direction and without wobble or flipping it over is the part that is counter-intuitive and takes a lot of practice and fine motor control -- throwing hard, on the other hand, is the easy part of a forehand.

Some of these fundamental differences help explain why it is more intuitive to be able to throw a forehand "hard" -- with a lot of strength and power. It's something we're already trained to do, and it's pretty straightforward. Throwing a backhand really hard, though, takes a total rethinking of body mechanics, since you are not really "throwing" a disc.

Putting in disc golf or passing/hucking in Ultimate, you "throw" a backhand -- meaning that you actually use the muscles in your wrist to generate forward motion and spin. In a max-power disc golf drive, your wrist is just a fulcrum of a full-body disc-launcher -- and this is one of the hardest concepts to communicate to new disc golfers -- they come to the sport from playing catch or from Ultimate, and it is hard to teach them NOT to "throw" the disc, but to launch it... once they understand that, most people gain 100-200 feet on their drives and a lot of power and spin.

Perfecting a full-body backhand catapult is conceptually the best way to impart maximum force/power/speed -- all of the above -- to a disc. But a lot less players are going to do this well than the number of players who can formlessly flick a forehand really hard past a radar gun towards a sheet of drywall, trying to punch a hole in it.

I too would throw backhand b/c that is what I am most practiced and consistent at executing. However, I must agree with Rich and concede that forehand throws result in greater momentum. Momentum is only mass X velocity. Rich is right in that pitchers throw fastest with a forehand delivery, however most pitchers do not throw sidearm but rather overhand. So I think that an overhand throw would probably have the most momentum of all out of the hand. The only reason that these throws do not travel as far as backhand throws is because of the effect of spin on disc flight.

You make a good point and I have to say that you guys might be right. One thing I'd like to add, however, is that total momentum will be forward momentum (speed x mass of disc) + angular momentum (moment of intertia x revs) so with the additional spin imparted by a backhand throw the total momentum might end up exceeding that of a forehand throw.