Per request from out of state player(s), this has been copied from San Diego forum to solicit a broader discussion about growing and protecting the game we love:


What would you say to the following?

First the analogy:

You invite some people to your home and you say "Welcome to my home! Everyone please kick back,
relax and have a good time while you are here. I only ask that no one put his/her shoes up on my
coffee-table during your stay, but otherwise please enjoy my home. Now excuse me for a moment
while I go into the other room and make you all some sandwiches and see what other prizes I can offer you just for stopping by."

Wow...that would be really awesome of you!

But upon returning to the room, someone's got his shoes up on your coffee-table and he's holding a match.

You'd be ticked-off right?

After all, you worked hard building the home, filling it,
sending out all your invites, making sure it was
ready for visitors, feeding and somewhat
pampering your guests, not to mention all the goodies
you dug up to say thanks for dropping by see you next time.

Doesn't Seem Fair.

Don't we respect some basic rules when visiting someone's home?


Now the Facts:


I was enjoying a popular local PDGA event over the weekend. It was well-run,
lots of great players, and they even added some fun new holes to an already terrific line-up. They did a great job.

Unfortunately, during a round I looked up and there Player X was attempting to "light-up" (not a cigarette) in plain view of several homes just 70ft away. Thank goodness for the windy conditions that denied him, and could have otherwise carried the scent right to houses.

Now I recall our TD asking everyone not to do this as this may jeopardize
the very existence of the course, let alone the awesome
event we were currently playing in. So I said "Come on, put it away."

He did, but minutes later he asked me "Would I be offended
if [he] 'does his thing' discretely?"

I said I think the person who asked everyone not to (whose home we are in) would be offended if he lost his home,
and by the way, you know we are not supposed to per the rules. "Why are you putting me and others in this position?"

I'm thinking...I just want to be outdoors enjoying the game I suck at, and watching good shots. I don't want to be feeling the pressure of ignoring an illegal activity and having to evaluate the outcome if I were to be a whistle blower.

Dang-it I just want to focus on that putt I'm about to miss!

But he didn't care and immediately pointed out to me that "I" am the only one who has a problem with it.
[He] heard the request, and [he] knows it's a rule (but doesn't care), he only wants to
make sure that I am not going to turn him in if he puts his shoes on the coffee-table.

I reminded him, that I did not create the rule or put the PDGA rule in writing, other people who do have a "problem with it" did.

But that didn't matter, I'd be the jerk if he "put his shoes up" and I turned him in. Earn my reputation as "anti-shoe guy."

Doesn't seem fair.

In reality, Player X was being selfish. It's not like he couldn't "put his shoes on the coffee-table"
before the round, during lunch, or afterwards all together.

Nope. He had to do "his thing" right then and there, screw the folks who put all the work in, and politely screw me if I don't like shoes on coffee-tables.

I don't want to get into trouble, nor get others into trouble (which is actually incorrect because he/she gets themselves into trouble). Maybe he was ultimately discrete enough that I didn't actually see him put his shoes up.


All I know is I love going to events at nice people's homes that they have worked hard to build and are willing to share. I also think shoes are fine, and see no problem putting shoes up on the coffee-table at one's own house, but why does everyone tell me I should think it's cool if they kick their shoes up on other people's coffee-table when asked not to?

Don't we respect some basic rules when visiting someone's home?

Doesn't Seem Fair.

I agree with your sentiments. Why do some people seem to feel "entitled" to do their thing,
even when they been expressly advised not to for a couple of hours while visiting somebody else's domain?

And to make matters worse, now YOU are made to feel bad because you have to decide how to react to the situation.

Is it just this sport which seems to wrestle with this issue on a regular basis?

I don't have any problem with people lighting up or drinking in general but why do some
people seem to think the rules don't apply to them (usually the tiny minority)

it isn't fair that someone would put you in that position. i've had a problem with this attitude from the beginning. the worst part is their ability to make you into the bad guy for enforcing the rules.

around my way, most people know me and don't even think about it in a pdga event. but if i am in a group i am unfamiliar with and suspect it may be a problem, i make sure to announce that i am a pdga official and and required by the rules to report them if they use drugs or alcohol during the round. problem solved. more people should do it. all you need to do is pass the officials test and you are good to go.

and i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but by not standing up to the druggie you are allowing it to continue on. you need to be a man and stand up to people who are dissing your friend behind his back after all the work he went through. i bet he would have your back. think about that.

The worst part of the situation is the person who sees it is put in one of two situations

1. Don't say anything and be a part of the problem
2. Say something and get people mad at you.

sometimes, in my case, number 2 is also the TD.

As I mentioned in the San Diego Forum that this type of activity could close all the doors not only in San Diego, but also elsewhere. Perception is reality! Fortunately there are some of us that are willing to stand up and say "Not in my house". But it does take a lot of courage to speak up and say something, especially when you know your right, but will end up the bad guy anyways.

Link to San Diego Forum (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=813754&page=0&vc=1&PHPSE SSID=a8b4653f57696773fd1dc9cf04125fcc#Post813754) if you want to read what was already written.

Richard

Are there posts missing here???......could have sworn krazy eye posted here earlier.


As a person....I try to respect each individual's preferences, beliefs, habits, and religion, basically, their individuality. After all, what would this world be if we were all the same?
Boring. I only hope that people learn the lessons they are here to learn. Self-control seems to be one of the hardest, for many.

As a player�.I respect the P.D.G.A. rules, even when I don�t agree with them (there should always be a 2 meter rule���.& you can pm me for a detailed debate, if you like).

As a T.D��I enforce the P.D.G.A. rules. What really sux is when you hear all the stuff that happened after your event is over, and what doubles the suckness, you hear & find out those folks (specific people that you know & thought you should trust) that aren�t willing to enforce the rules��.or that a player affiliated with one of your bigger sponsors caused a situation that should have been reported�..wasn�t ��and could have gotten that player DQ�d.

Personally (as a person), I think if you can�t do without booze or smoke for a couple of hours, you should NOT play PDGA sanctioned events.

Professionally (as a FPO), I would not tolerate rules infractions.

Professionally (as a TD), I can�t really use the terms on this forum I�d like to use to describe the players that don�t have the balls to stand up for the rules, and I�m tired of listening to people complain AFTER the situation occurs��& people (sub eople for ussies) that won�t back up the call��hmmmmmm�.might get in trouble for that one�OH WELL���������������PLAYERS��..PDGA MEMBERS����.EVERYONE����.I CHALLENGE YOU TO MAKE THE CALL����OR�������DON�T COMPLAIN ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS IN THE END.

This may be a �Forever Issue� (can�t count how many times I�ve read about this very issue here)��It will never be fixed unless players make the call��.
�round, & around, & around we go���where it stops know one knows.
Some people just don�t care��..some people have no respect�..some people just want to try and be cool (or at least not think they're not the �azzhole')

I agree with Dr. Evil,aka:dick......as a TD and player who respects the PDGA, and private property sometimes used for events, I promised myself, I would announce BEFORE the round that I would turn anyone in who uses illegal drugs during the round. Trying to eliminate the pressure of being asked during a round if it is OK to "put their shoes up". Within that single weekend, I became the BAD GUY...amazing to me. This was the WVO...after all that Spencer has done for us building that DG paradise...still no respect?

SO, next tourny I figured I would stick to my promise...I was hoping to have enough genuine friends in the discgolf family to allow some to dislike me. I believe, and hope this is true, BUT during the 2nd round of the next tourny, there was a backup on hole #17 at Killens' Pond DGC...I was in the lead group, or second group, in Advanced...while we were waiting, other advanced groups gathered at #17 tee...at least 5-6 players lit-up..some behind me in scoring, some ahead...the advanced field was maybe 12-13 players...so, I would have to DQ' half the Advanced field. THEN I would be the rules "dick" and be accused of using the rule to overtake players ahead of me as well. I am ashamed, that I DID NOT report them...(I did not announce BEFORE our round that I would), but still...I feel I should of stuck to it...

The only thoughts I had, were "why should I alone take on this, I am not a baby-sitter?"...and "why should I alone take the brunt impact of separating myself from people I care about?"...ironic...I am selfish enough to back-down, while they are selfish enough not to care.

Maybe when I get back into the sport heavily again, I will have the courage, or
stronger ethic, to follow through?

Unfortunately, maybe like some others, when I RUN / TD a tourny, I have no problems telling people they WILL be DQed and not welcome back, even if we are friends etc....for sure on private property that i am responsible for the players respecting.

As I have said before....not against drugs...do weed / cocaine / lick glue for all I care, just DO NOT do it during the 18-27 holes during a PDGA tourny.

I do think the sport is growing at a rate where these players who used to be NEEDED in the past to support PDGA / local club - courses etc...are no longer needed to have the sport grow. In other words, we have matured ,as a sport, and grown out of our teen years.

Chains

Are there posts missing here???......could have sworn krazy eye posted here earlier.

Yes I posted when it was on the San Diego Thread. Original poster moved it by request to a more open forum. Your event the players did right. Edit. My original post follows... I told someone this weekend they couldn't put their shoes on a friend�s coffee table. I got reminded three times that they sure would like to put their feet on the coffee table but I wasn�t cool.

You have 2 options..........You either let him smoke and dont tell........Then your also cheating by allowing someone else to cheat.........IE part of the problem not the solution..........B you do the right thing by telling him no and if he does smoke turn him in.......Situation B dosent make you look like a jerk at all because its HIM breaking the rules not you and HE is the one being the jerk!!!

If he asks and someone says no then he should put it away and keep his mouth shut........But I KNOW that most people just let them do their THING just so they dont make waves!!! Kind sucks because I know this isnt the only rule people look the other way on just so they dont make waves!!!

Just to recap, I hope folks are not here to attack people "who do or do not" speak up. In this case, I did speak up in support of the rules and the TD, and the activity ceased.

However, the real issue is not about the courage to speak out, but about the attitude that creates the situation in the first place.

As Slatersan mentioned, the feeling of entitlement that many people bring to an event; which is manifested as disregard for a stated requirement by the PDGA and seemingly the people, and so happens to be consistent with the law of the land.

Sport leagues are not about respecting "individual" preferences...it is about individuals respecting, and not continually endangering the hard work of tournament directors and staff while visiting an event. Moreover, it's about respecting a generally agreed upon set of rules, laws, statutes, and overall integrity of the game. PDGA members get to vote on many things, yet they have not voted this rule out, it has even been strengthened during rule revisions so enough folks must want it in place.


Yes, we want to encourage people to stand up, but we also want to encourage "offenders" to not so easily dismiss the hard work, time, marketing, and money it takes to make events happen.

Everyone here knows who gets currently gets labeled the "jerk," so there is no need to suggest that the standard is otherwise.

This piece is not whining, this is calling out the current, prevailing mentality for what it is--backwards! Maybe this discussion and original analogy will help some people see the picture in plainer view. Maybe nothing ever will change. At least some folks have been willing to talk about it and pipe in with some useful thoughts and perspective--that's a start.

I'm not here to opine from a soap box, or demand mandatory testing, or say ban this person or that. I just wanted to provide an example of "just saying no" to encourage the growing number of people who pay their entry, make travel plans by planes, trains and automobiles...and who just want to be able to show up and play without having to worry about which side of some dividing line they must be ready to defend at a moments notice.

If someone claims he can pick & choose which rules apply to him, may I do the same and, say, move his disc to an unfavorable lie?

This is supposed to be a self-regulating game. It is the duty of players to know the rules and call them on themselves. When another players fails to do so, he's forcing me to play umpire when I'd rather play disc golf. When he's deliberately breaking the rule and deliberately putting me in the umpire position, shouldn't he be considered the "jerk"?

If someone claims he can pick & choose which rules apply to him, may I do the same and, say, move his disc to an unfavorable lie?

This is supposed to be a self-regulating game. It is the duty of players to know the rules and call them on themselves. When another players fails to do so, he's forcing me to play umpire when I'd rather play disc golf. When he's deliberately breaking the rule and deliberately putting me in the umpire position, shouldn't he be considered the "jerk"?



*clapping*

Yep.

I take no stance on the position at question but as a general rule of thumb ...

Failing to call a rules infraction cheats everyone else at the tourney. Often people rationalize not calling a rules infraction by simply thinking "It doesn't bother me, it was no big deal, I won't call it". However failing to call a rules infraction of any kind impacts not only you, but every other competitor since the person who committed the rules infraction isn't competing with only you, but all other competitors.

I take no stance on the position at question but as a general rule of thumb ...

Failing to call a rules infraction cheats everyone else at the tourney. Often people rationalize not calling a rules infraction by simply thinking "It doesn't bother me, it was no big deal, I won't call it". However failing to call a rules infraction of any kind impacts not only you, but every other competitor since the person who committed the rules infraction isn't competing with only you, but all other competitors.



Here, Here....

I wanted to add one other thing, that I believe is relevant....

Scenario 1. - When playing in a tourny, we often run across people who just simply do not know the rules. For example: At a tourny, during the round, a player threw their disc back to their bag, (well over 2 meters), lets say 15 feet...and then proceeded to play their shot. NOW...as a TD I am REQUIRED to call a "practice throw" on this person, and have them add 1 penalty stroke to their score. I believe that is one of the few rules that does not need a warning.

Be back to that in a second...

Now, many times I think the majority of us allow for someone to be ignorant to the rules here and there... an example - an AM player steps on mini while putting... usually this scenario ends up with another player casually letting the player at fault, know that there is a rule against that act, and suggests to them to try not to do it in the future. This solves the problem of being a "rules dick", and you feel you have helped a player learn more about the game.

Back to the first scenario...I personally have warned people, AFTER they threw a practice shot, that they usually would be stroked automatically for breaking the rules, (I know, I broke the rules also, I will get to that)...again avoiding the "rules dick" and feeling like I helped someone learn more about discgolf tournament play.

BUT...on the drive home, I was thinking about it, and I should have just called the player for the practice throw, given the 1 stroke penalty, and chalked it up to being a responsible TD, and advocate of fair play.

>>> AND here are the conclusions I came to: 1. By allowing the player off with a warning, I have cheated the rest of that players division out of 1 stroke 2. on the same ideal...what if the player I did not penalize places, say 9th or 10th place in AM 2, and even cashes. What bothered me the most, is the idea that there may be another AM 2 player at that tourny who's ONLY goal was to break the "top 10", and they came in 11th that day. I would be responsible for that...

A little corny...but like when you drop a small pebble in a calm pond, and as the pebble drops in there is only a little "plop", but if you look longer, you see the ripples, from that "plop" getting larger and larger until they are actually small waves by the time the ripples spread across the pond...and the main point is that, it WOULD effect the WHOLE pond...seemed like such a small thing, but that small action really had a huge effect...

Chains

>>> AND here are the conclusions I came to: 1. By allowing the player off with a warning, I have cheated the rest of that players division out of 1 stroke 2. on the same ideal...what if the player I did not penalize places, say 9th or 10th place in AM 2, and even cashes. What bothered me the most, is the idea that there may be another AM 2 player at that tourny who's ONLY goal was to break the "top 10", and they came in 11th that day. I would be responsible for that...



While that might have been secondary effects from your decision, I believe the primary reason for calling the rules is not cheating yourself from personal integrity, sometimes known as "doing the right thing." If you're the only one who observes a rules infraction, the only result that ultimately impacts anyone else depends solely on the process that happens in your head. Sounds like you're on the right track we can only hope others can follow.

I LUV the "shoes on the table" analogy. Hats off.

As one of many who has invested in putting courses in the ground, running events, and keeping park boards happy - I decided a couple of years ago to take a stand - regardless.

At a sanctioned event (as player or TD) , I will report both shoes and elbows on the table-- no problem. I am convinced it is a matter of respect. If someone (even a so-called buddy) wants to disrespect me by ignoring the rules, then I have no intention of disrespecting all of the other cards by not calling the violaton. I need my integrity more than I need another "bud" to play golf with.

Instead of having one standard for a sanctioned event and yet another for casual play -- I now take a stand during casual play too.

I say it real nice -- "This isn't our backyard. We are here at the pleasure of the citizens, the park board, and the local constabulary. We will respect thier rules. Take your "shoes-on-the-table" desires somewhere else." Sadly enuff -- I personally enjoy putting "elbows" on the table, but our home course has a prohibition on such. So, I ,too---- "take it somewhere else".

Once again, it isn't about shoes or elbows. It is about respect. It isn't MY backyard - or yours either.

Thanks,
Ron Pittman

Just wanted to thanks the folks at Huntington Beach for a very fine event again this year. Things ran on-time, wind kicked up as usual, and the locals are awesome offering up good eats and bbq at the make-shift parking lot lounge.

I did happen upon a Master's group during a small back-up and suddenly could smell that someone had their shoes-on-the-coffee-table. It wasn't apparent who.

Fortunately the conversation here helped me feel very comfortable saying "If someone doesn't have tobacco they better put it away."

Anyhow, I think the discussion here also helped me to frame the problem correctly. It's not that I have a problem with shoes-on-the-coffee-table, it's that others are not used to respecting the rules or respecting the simple request by the TD or course owner for a couple hours clean-play (reasonable trade-off for the event).

Funny thing is...if I said to those same people "come'on man...I really want a second putt." they would probably tell me "No, it's against the rules!"

I wonder.

Very nice readings.

If we called everyone for smoking pot during sanctioned play, many of the top players in the world would be suspended right now. I would be very surprised to see someone call out and report a top ten in the world ranked player for this rule infraction. That would take some balls. I don't think I could do it, even though I'm against it. I'm too passive to say anything.

Here's my major problem with the whole issue, the onus to enforce the rule is being put on the players in the group to make a call, and then they are the bad guy. If these guys had any respect for me or the td and volunteers they wouldn't be doing drugs and drinking at the event. so in turn, i really don't care what they think of me. i don't need friends who don't respect me or disc golf. If they say i'm a dick, so be it.

all right, here it is from the smokers' side.
most smokers are like the drinkers, they drink and drink and drink before, during, and after the round.
that being said, take it from this side that we want you to call the rules infraction. if nothing else for the simple fact that if we can't have it 'neither can you. lol
bottom line. if everyone else can go without for a few hours so can they.

sorry: meant to say" before, during the break, and after the round."

If, for instance, I did report someone for "putting their feet on the table," would I need someone else from my card to second it. Otherwise, it seems it would just be my word against that player's, and that could get sticky.

Report it, and if the TD has any brain at all, he'll pull the card together and discuss it. In a situation like that, the other players tend not to be indifferent, out of respect to the TD.

sorry: meant to say" before, during the break, and after the round."



that sounds more like it, I havent seen anyone smoking or drinking on a card in a while