This was not composed by me. I received this e-mail today from
Subject: Marshall Street's Ask Torque
From: "Torque Novitski" <torque@marshallstreetdiscgolf.com>


To sanction or not to sanction.



Dear Torque,

My friends and I are planning a tournament
for this summer, and can't decide whether to
apply for PDGA sanctioning. We especially
don't like the $10 non-member fee. And,
frankly, we're not looking forward to
enforcing the no-beer rule.

Since it's our very first event, we're
thinking C-Tier, but charging our non-PDGA
member friends $10 for apparently nothing,
THEN telling them they can't drink beer
during their rounds makes us wonder if we'd
be better off running things our way and
waiting till the PDGA learns to relax a
little.



Melinda in Montana

Dear Melinda,

Your timing is perfect, because the PDGA has
relaxed a tiny little bit. Its new
Competition Endowment Program waives the $10
non-member fee for PDGA C-Tiers that donate
to a charity.

You also have to donate the $2 per player fee
directly to your charity of choice and match
it. Finally, the $50 sanctioning fee you pay
just to get put on the schedule is chopped
down to $25.

So instead of writing a big fat check to PDGA
Headquarters, you can send it to people (or
animals) who really need it. And unlike the
PDGA, most charities - at least the ones we
raise money for -- tell you where the money
is going.

Regarding the PDGA's crackdown on beer, the
wording of the rule makes it harmless, at
least with C Tiers:

"The use of alcohol is forbidden from the
2-minute warning until the player's scorecard
is submitted. At a C Tier event, the TD shall
either disqualify the offending player or
issue them a warning."

Maybe the TD would like to issue warnings
along with Marshall
Street Koozies,
(http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001o7toWAhBMel0jbKboxKZI1YHeff6hiHx2CEN0v K_OeM5QvnekYc2iW13M6wduceiXsNPCppMMNvVhVlurwvc104c 3z0i5kUM6Cdas-eUe1wj8-t0sEsWrDbNgFGIvQVggnrHKxxO8q22xR6YGd95_21CF1vV6YQI mF5bLC1hKHIdHiireud0Sg==)
thus
making it a no-warm-beer rule. At any rate it
doesn't sound like it's worth worrying about,
especially for the TD, who already has better
things on his mind than enforcing the PDGA's
Church Lady rules.

So I'd say go for it. Run a PDGA event.
Donate to a worthy cause. Let your non-member
friends play without making them fork over
$10. Give the more serious players their
beloved PDGA Ratings. And leave it in the
TD's capable hands to enforce, ignore,
circumvent, or make a mockery of the PDGA's
no-beer rule.

Sure, the PDGA has a lot of problems. An
out-of-date mission statement that looks like
it was written by a six-year-old, secret
salaries and expense accounts, no
constitution to speak of anymore, no
accountability at all, a website that's a
labyrinth of poorly written albeit
well-hidden documents, and a name that does
not accurately describe itself.

But sanctioning charity events and letting
the money go to real charities? Promoting our
sport while giving to the non-frisbee world?
Makes us wonder if the PDGA is finally
turning around, because this new Competition
Endowment Program makes a while lot of sense.

Sincerely,

Torque Novitski (mailto:torque@marshallstreetdiscgolf.com), Marshall Street

PS. Simply email

torque@marshallstreetdiscgolf.com (mailto:torque@marshallstreetdiscgolf.com) or
reply to
this email if you would like to ask Torque a
question.
Each month one email will be picked and answered
in the Ask Torque column.


Let the discs fly!
------------------------------------------------------------
email: torque@marshallstreetdiscgolf.com
phone: 508-792-2764
web: http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com
------------------------------------------------------------

Marshall Street | Marshall Street | 103 Marshall Street | Leicester | MA | 01524

I received the Ask Torque newsletter today. I'm wondering how many mothers that purchased discs from Marshall Street for their kids and received this newsletter today.

I find it funny on the homepage of the PDGA page that there is a Marshall Street link yet Torque just bashes the hell outta the PDGA.

I also find it funny Marshall Street is hosting an NT event this year yet Torque bashes the PDGA.

There is a reason disc golf has this image. It's fools like Torque.

We are the PDGA. What are you going to do to promote the game and PDGA in a positve manner?

This is very dis-heartening to read.

I know that when people first get turned on to disc golf they soak up as much information as they possibly can. Where do they get that information from now-a-days? That crazy internet or that world wide web thing as some call it.

Seeing newsletters which such angst certainly don't help anything. As Brett said, I hope too many mothers and fathers aren't turned off by such a newsletter.

PS - Please don't send me some message saying how I'm some crazy conservative that needs to chill out or get a grip. I work with youth groups, churches, and thousands of 'newbies' every single year. We always say how the future of disc golf is today's current amateurs yet this is the message we're delivering to their inbox?

Terry,

You're some crazy conservative who needs to chill out. :D

On a more serious note, as much as I have seen in my short time playing, it is amazing to me that Torque just doesn't say "Oh, and if you are in a state that allows medicinal marijuana, well just toque it up."

The only thing that I will correct you slightly on. The future of disc golf is not today's amatuers, but today's <u>young</u> amatuers. As much as the folks in their twenties are important to the building of the sport, the ones in their early teens and younger are really more important. The image we teach them to display on and off of the course will have a greater influence on the future exposure of the sport than much of today's generation will.

Stenky

Well, you can go on and pretend its not correct(at least a little). If no one is out there doubting and publicly questioning, how are we supposed to find any truth.

I also find it funny Marshall Street is hosting an NT event this year yet Torque bashes the PDGA.



Not exactly. Steve Dodge, PDGA Board member who is hosting the NT, has split from Jason Southwick who will retain Marshall Street. Steve has started Primediscs along with Tom Southwick as a partner. Sounds like Marshall Street's role regarding the NT would be cloudy at best (as will family relationships?).
Read the last few posts: www.nefa.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3392&amp;sid=e74f64e9f544ba193bed47a1b 6e1079f (http://www.nefa.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3392&amp;sid=e74f64e9f544ba193bed47a1b 6e1079f)

Marshall Street isn't hosting an NT, Maple Hill is. They are now separate entities.

There will be a cage fight on Saturday night. And since 10 year old children are cagefighting in Missouri (I saw it on the news today), that's OK, right? ;)

Poor misunderstood Jason, oh Torque.

He used humor had sarcasm to point out some
of the weaknesses pf the pDGA.
He gave a valid, current answer to a question.

In closing, he acknowledges the Competition
Endowment/Charity program as a good thing.
Does this mean the end for the program?

Must Jason agree with everything the pDGA does
because he advertises here?
Jason is not "shaping the image" of disc golf.
He is merely doing his best to grow the sport.

s timm

My email reply to him (edited for the MB)

Torque,

I was very saddened by your reply. I ran the first every event under the endownment program and I "didn't write a big fat check to PDGA headquarters"

Instead, I wrote one for 25 dollars and then b/c it was sanctioned, made more money for my charity b/c more people came to my event simply b/c it was sanctioned, easily negating the 25 dollar fee I paid.

The PDGA is the best thing we have in disc golf and people like you make it look bad.

Robert Leonard
PROUD PDGA Member

The person asking Torque only had two concerns, the $10 non-member fee and drinking. It's hardly a weakness that a sport sanctioning body disallows alcohol during competition and charges some sort of fee for those who aren't members. How much that fee should be can be questioned but it's questioned more by non-members, not members in relation to what they pay. The rest of Torque's response was a determination to offer those negative "soapbox tangents" when not requested.

even making an issue of this is a bit much. Torque can write what he/she/it wishes. the PDGA has no editorial control over what a private company says. as far as i know Torque's distribution list was put together from MS files, not the PDGA's, and likely has a large number of nonPDGA players on it. how many times did Torque say "PDGA". good lord, Torque should be charging per mention not taking greif from people with no sense of humor and who cant laugh at themselves. what other advertisers mention the PDGA as often as Torque? i'd say we might even get more impressions from Torque than we do from the PDGA member newsletters, now that the CD has delegated that activity.

I emailed them asking them to remove my name from their distribution list. I might be the only one who does this, but I believe we have to support the PDGA and correct what one might think as wrong through the correct channels.

I do not think that this was a humorist article as others here have indicated.

I do believe that he has the right to say what he thinks, I just do not have to be a part of it.

My Opinion.

And there is the most powerful response that can be taken if it is felt that a business isn't operating in a fair or professional manner. Simply stop doing business with them. The market will take care of the rest.

As noted above, free speech allows a business person to take such an inflammatory approach. But good business practice usually doesn't tie in well with vendettas and grudges, especially when aired so poorly and publicly.

And no, the message was not positive PR for the PDGA just because the org was mentioned multiple times. That's drivel at about the same level as the original message.

The writer wants to see what everyone may think about it and its not a bad thing to dis-agree or agree. it has prove its worth by yall starting this thread..... So what if a mother finds out there is people out there drinkin at the DG course, the same thing can be found at the bowling ally

You mean people drink beer and play DG in Montana AND Massachusetts? Sounds like a conspiracy - we should definitely find a way to censor any talk of such outlandish behavior.

So what if a mother finds out there is people out there drinkin at the DG course, the same thing can be found at the bowling ally



Two reasons this does not matter

1. Drinking is illegal on most courses through the US because they are in public parks and in a bowling alley, you are in a privately owned building.
2. They don't drink during professional bowling tournaments

you want to compare a c tier to pro bowling thats not even a close comparision...... given the fact that torque resides on a private course we are not talking about public courses were drinking is illiegal.... try to understand the context of where the info is coming from....don't just use it the way you want so it can fit your own agenda.. ok tiZZle your smart enough to figure that out with me telling you so....

you want to compare a c tier to pro bowling thats not even a close comparision...... given the fact that torque resides on a private course we are not talking about public courses were drinking is illiegal.... try to understand the context of where the info is coming from....don't just use it the way you want so it can fit your own agenda.. ok tiZZle your smart enough to figure that out with me telling you so....



I don't care if it's a M, NT, A, B C. or Public, Private. I cannot think of 1 professional or amateur sport that allows drinking during play. If you want to drink go to a bar.There will never be a comparison of disc golf to any major sport.

It's this kind of mentality that will continue to keep this sport at the bottom. Park districts stereotype us as vandals, stoners, and alcoholics. Ask someone outside of disc golf what they think of. Stoners &amp; drunks. Go figure park districts don't want courses on their land. Blame the PDGA for everything they do or don't do. That's the answer, NOT!

OK
Mr/Ms Toungue N'chekski has written a newsletter.
Take a shoot across his bow, opt out, bring him to his knees.
Is there really a Melinda in Montana?

Sanctioning or not is a valid question.

T N is publishing an business newsletter,
his customers are pampered with great
service and enlightened with his wit and
love for the sport.

thank you marshall street

the tier level does matter cause in my mind a c tier is the same bowling league where i can and do drink as many other do as they please

the tier level does matter cause in my mind a c tier is the same bowling league where i can and do drink as many other do as they please



So you are basically playing a non sanctioned bowling event at your local alley known as minis or league in disc golf. I wish you the best of luck with that philosphy on the PBA Tour!

Bean,

Alcohol is not allowed for competitors at C-tier events, just like it isn't allowed at the Futures tour events, Rookie ball baseball, Now, it may or may not be allowed at state or local bowling tournaments. You may not like the rule, but when I see you pull out the bottle, I will call you on it.

Thank you,

Steve

Is there really a Melinda in Montana? ...

T N is publishing an business newsletter,
his customers are pampered with great
service and enlightened with his wit and
love for the sport.



Of course, there's no Melinda in Montana!
But what a funny (peculiar, not ha-ha) message from a "businessman". This is a marketing message? No, its a remarkable piece of vitriol!

I've sent Torque a couple of questions for next month: What�s the theory behind this � attack the organization that encourages the participation and course development that fuels the purchases of the products you sell? Or an alternate question ... what is this hang-up about beer at sanctioned events? (I speculate that Marshall Street�s real revenue-generator is beer sales?!?)

Here's one for you, Steve ... where in that little email do you see any love for the sport?

I know plenty of people who drink while they play darts, in a tournament setting as well. Nevermind the fact that they probably win more money while doing so than a good percentage of the 'professional' d.g.ers I know.

It's this kind of mentality that will continue to keep this sport at the bottom. Park districts stereotype us as vandals, stoners, and alcoholics. Ask someone outside of disc golf what they think of. Stoners &amp; drunks. Go figure park districts don't want courses on their land. Blame the PDGA for everything they do or don't do. That's the answer, NOT!


the thing about the argument behind this case is that on one hand we say "Bravo PDGA... so many new courses, so many new players... Great Job!", but then we say "the sport is at the bottom and its because of the PDGA". which is it?


What�s the theory behind this � attack the organization that encourages the participation and course development that fuels the purchases of the products you sell? Or an alternate question ... what is this hang-up about beer at sanctioned events?


where was the attack? TN poked fun at a PDGA policy. hardly an "attack". attacks are when missiles start falling and you're afraid to go out at night. a private business's parody of a policy that admittedly is at least mildly divisive among our Members is not an attack. if anything it is market feedback, and there is value in listening to it with an open mind. besides, "fuels the puchases might be a bit of a reach. the number usually cited is that about 10% of all discs sold are sold for use in PDGA sanctioned events. we should thank the PDGA sincerely for that 10%, but lets not forget to give credit to all of the other factors that contribute to building that other 90%.

thank you marshall street

2. They don't drink during professional bowling tournaments



:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

YEAAAAAAAH RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGHHHHHHT.

Bean,

Alcohol is not allowed for competitors at C-tier events, just like it isn't allowed at the Futures tour events, Rookie ball baseball, Now, it may or may not be allowed at state or local bowling tournaments. You may not like the rule, but when I see you pull out the bottle, I will call you on it.

Thank you,

Steve



you aren't 100% correct here. Read your rulebook. Or actually, I'll help you out and save you time...

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension
A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:

(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present

(2) Willful and overt destruction or abuse of plant life, course hardware, or any other property considered part of the disc golf course or the park.

(3) Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play.

<font color="red"> READ THIS SECTION CAREFULLY... </font>

(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol. Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct. An official warning of disqualification may be issued by a director where appropriate.

B. Disqualified players shall forfeit any prize money and shall not receive a refund of entry fees.



all I'm saying is that leaves A LOT of interpretation. I'm not for this side or that. I have my preference, but I'm in no way hardlined on what should be allowed/disallowed...

I suggest you look again. The only exception for a C-tier is that your first swig might only be a warning (it can be a DQ) after that you get the immediate DQ.

^^after a warning, you most likely would get DQ'ed, but it doesnt have to be immediate, or at all in fact.... and I quote:

"Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct"

SWIG once, warning. Swig twice, DQ. Tourney director sees you had ONE beer. Think he/she is gonna kick you out and jeopardize you and your friends participation in future tourneys? Doubtful.

Listen, it's this simple.... Dont be a loud, jerkish DRUNK... dont get DQ'ed. that simple.

Have some respect for yourself and others and I see no issues.

^^after a warning, you most likely would get DQ'ed, but it doesnt have to be immediate, or at all in fact.... and I quote:

"Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct"

SWIG once, warning. Swig twice, DQ. Tourney director sees you had ONE beer. Think hes gonna kick you out and jeopardize you and your firends participation in future tourneys? Doubtful.

Listen, its this simple.... Dont be a loud, jerkish DRUNK, dont get DQ'ed. that simple.

Have some resepect for yourself and others and I see no issues.




Better yet don't DQ the guy and the guy who called the guy on it won't play anymore of his events. This happened to my dad who drinks in pretty much every round but follows the rules in PDGA events. He was asked by a guy on his card if it was ok to drink and my dad said that if he couldn't drink during the round then there was no reason the guy couldn't just wait until the lunch break. Well the guy drank his beer anyway and when my dad told the TD and he brushed it off my dad decided to not play anymore of that TD's events.

and that TD should not be allowed to run events anymore.

MTL, we know how hard nosed you are on this topic. The TD can do as he pleases. He does not HAVE to DQ the guy. The rules say so. Sorry you dont like that, but as you can clearly read above, that's how its stated.

Scooter, If the TD stated during player meeting that he was not going to allow drinking, then, by all means your dad has legitimate beef and should take that to the PDGA. If nothing was said then he doesnt have a leg to stand on because as the rule states, it at the TD's discretion. Sad, but true.

Another CLEAR CUT rule from your friends at the PDGA!

WOW, these brews in my fridge are gonna taste twice as good while I practice putting today.

^^after a warning, you most likely would get DQ'ed, but it doesnt have to be immediate, or at all in fact.... and I quote:

"Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct"



But another quote (from the competition manual):
"The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player's scorecard is submitted. Such use shall result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify the offending player or issue them a warning. If a player has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification."

Seriously Krupicka, thanks for that insight.

Do you know why that is not in the rule book?!? Instead in a buried "comp manual" that hardly anyone knows exists in a far off corner of this website.

I just follow the "rules" as stated in the Official Rules of Disc Golf. Why would I think there is anything else to follow when it is so clearly defined in our rulebook?!? :confused:

IIRC the competition manual is supposed to be how to run PDGA events while the rule book is how the game should be played.

Our rulebook started out including both the rules of play and competition guidelines. For the last several years, the PDGA has been working to separate the two sections such that the Competition Committee would oversee the 804 Tournament Procedures section. It's going to take a while to get the timing and communication sequence streamlined between these two documents a little better.

But essentially, the rulebook with the fundamentals how the game is played won't need to be updated as often as the Competition guidelines which are impacted more by changes in technology, event financing, tiering, tours, dealing with player behavior (Disciplinary Committee) and international considerations.

<font color="red"> "The PDGA Competition Manual outlines procedures and guidelines for
PDGA events, and is to be used in conjunction with the Official Rules
of Play and Tour Standards document. These procedures and
guidelines are required for all PDGA sanctioned events unless
specified otherwise. If a Tournament Director finds any provision in
the document unacceptable a waiver may be requested by contacting
the Tour Manger.

Every effort has been made for this manual to compliment and expand
upon information contained in other documents. Where documents
appear to conflict this manual should be considered the authoritative
source. In the case of a conflict between documents the reader is
encouraged to contact the PDGA office directly for clarification."</font>

The quote above is the introductory paragraph of the PDGA Competition Manual. Organizers/tournament directors who run PDGA sanctioned events are required to utilize this document in addition to the Tour Standards document.

so in effect we have docs other than the rules that players are expected to understand and follow.

i'm ok with that. ("that" being the various docs scattered around that a player in sanctioned events needs to understand and follow.)

it should not surprise anyone that players might be dazed and confused, even somewhat put off, about all of this. many of these players are not-so-willing or convince-me-first participants in PDGA events. at C tiers no less. the bowling alley/one step above a mini comparison is right on.

growing the PDGA into new regions and with new members will be more successful if we remain sensitive to the reasons and needs/wants of the market segments we are targeting. if we ultimately agree that the needs/wants of some particular region are not compatible with the PDGA, then so be it. my own opinion is that we may not be at that point yet - forcing strict "rules" on C tiers is not likely to go over well at many potential C tiers. the ratings just arent worth that much to many players in those regions. bludgeoning them into conformity is not gonna fill Addie's mailbox.

lets say you are a PDGA representative playing a C tier in non-pdga territory. there are lots of instances of picking up 2 footers, beers in coozies, foot faults, etc. what do you do? call everything you see? that approach might not do much good for hte perception of the PDGA in those parts. its a tricky spot. do you demand blind allegience to a baffling collection of documents that sometimes (frequently?) conflict? or do you go with the flow, and choose a different forum for taking a hard line on perceived rules and sanctioning agreement "violations"?

MTL, we know how hard nosed you are on this topic. The TD can do as he pleases. He does not HAVE to DQ the guy. The rules say so. Sorry you dont like that, but as you can clearly read above, that's how its stated.





But nothing was done in Matt's example. No warning. Nothing. That is why I said what I did.

And btw, anyone caught drinking in any event I have anything to do with will not be warned :D

Pat,

I understand the thought around the non-PDGA areas and the enforcement of the rules. But if the rules are not important in these areas until they become PDGA areas, what do you think is going to happen once rules are enforced? How is that equitable to areas that are PDGA areas, where some of us feel it is important to play within the rules (no inferences intended in that statement)?

BTW, using your example, I will normally warn on the first offense of the picking up the 2 footers and foot faults (which of course is the norm). With the Beer in the Coozies, I will tell them to either get rid of it or I will let the TD know.

In fact I did do this in a C-tier in IL. I got crap from the guy who was doing it (he was a newer player), but after a short period of time, he said that it was all cool.

I had a few people say, "It's only a C-tier...". I responded that "If I let it go here, how can I call it anywhere?" I got no real response...

Thank you,

Steve

<font color="red"> Where documents appear to conflict this manual should be considered the authoritative source. </font>



Then these documents need to be pushed to the forefront and acknowledged for what they are, the top law for all conflicting documents (in this case our very own OFFICIAL Rules of Disc Golf). I've been playing for give or take 2 years now and I have a rulebook in my bag that I do refer to. I knew of these documents but never was shown or told of their apparent importance. Guess now that I actually know, I have some reading to do.

I think the PDGA has some ammending and reprinting to do as well. What good is a rulebook then?.. Someone please tell me.

TO not drift, If I follow the rulebook I can drink and drink and get away with it, TECHNICALLY. Following the Comp manual it's auto DQ. :confused:

In case anyone that actually "matters" is reading this.... as an average player and someone who has taken a fondness to competitive disc golf through the PDGA and my local club, this whole thread and issue is somewhat irritating. I think its clear why. Beer or not, there are conflicting documents inside our organization that people are supposed to follow. It's the Official Rules that are conflicted for crying out loud.

Towels, Beers, 2m rule, OH MY! :eek:

Agree! Love Torque, Love doing business with them, and saddened that so many here seem to want everything to be so G rated. Are you peoples kids so seriously sheltered that mentioning that adults sometime have a beer could shatter their perception of the world? And if someone wants to TD a beer friendly event, i say 'more power to ya'? Not everything on the planet needs to be kid friendly, zero-tolerance, nanny-state, family fun. And he was just talking about the C-Tier events, for crying out loud.

Keep up the good work Torque!