date: 3/30/08

registration 8-9

players meeting 9:15



Gold (Cash)- 45$

Silver(<935) - 45$

Bronze(<900) - 35$

Open Women(cash) - 45$

Silver (Advanced) Women (Ams or pros<850)- 35$

Bronze (Intermediate) Women (ams <800)- 35$

all current PDGA members can subtract 10$ from entry fee.
EVERY PLAYER WILL GET A CUSTOM STAMPED DISC AS A PLAYERS PACK.(including pros, so EVERYONE will take home something)

Lunch will be provided

Please pre-register as registration will likely fill.

ONLINE REGISTRATION (http://www.pdgasignup.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1204719789)


I realize this is different. Not exactly sure how this will work, but we will give it a try.

What is the format, Rich? Two rounds of 18?

2 rounds of 18, long tees round 1, short tees round 2, pins are all deep for both rounds, did I get that correct Doctor? :)

Hey Dick,

Isn't this the tourney where you infringe on a noted copyright?

http://www.thepunishermerchandise.com/movie/punisher_2004/promotional_images/Punisher_Skull.jpg

Hey Dick,

Where did you steal this from?

http://www.pdgasignup.com/Qstore/uploads/patapsco_punisher_08_300x300.jpg

Bite me, Gammon. That is original artwork created by one of your nomad "associates". No stolen artwork or infringed copyrights this year.

And yes, Shark is correct. 2 Rounds of 18, long then short, as we are conforming to the DST Tee Order guidelines.

BTW, that is the logo on the discs everyone gets. Mostly all cool FLX discraft stuff.

DST Tee Order guidelines? :confused:

DST Tee Order guidelines? :confused:


Official DST Tee Order Guideline Announcement (http://md-discgolf.com/viewtopic.php?t=1548&start=20)

ANNOUNCEMENT: The daylight savings time switch is officially declared as the switchover to Long Tees AM Short Tees PM. This lasts from March 9th to November 2nd at which point short tees will again be played in the AM.

This announcement is superduper official and any TD's breaking this rule will be banished to McLean park forever-ever.

BTW, registration is now OPEN!!!

Field is going to be limited to 72 players. Online pre-reg is suggested.

58 spots remaining!
pre reg list (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7755)

Registrations are rolling in. Pre-register online now at pdgasignup.com or call me to arrange registration 301-318-7991

don't get shut out.

did i mention that everyone gets a custom stamped disc and free lunch?

date: 3/30/08
registration 8-9
players meeting 9:15

Gold (Cash)- 45$
Silver(<935) - 45$
Bronze(<900) - 35$
Gold Women(cash) - 45$
Silver (Advanced) Women (Ams or pros<850)- 35$
Bronze (Intermediate) Women (ams <800)- 35$

all current PDGA members can subtract 10$ from entry fee.
EVERY PLAYER WILL GET A CUSTOM STAMPED DISC AS A PLAYERS PACK.(including pros, so EVERYONE will take home something)

Lunch will be provided

Please pre-register as registration will likely fill.

register online HERE (http://www.pdgasignup.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1204719789)

or mail to:
Rich Myers
10621 Whiterock Ct.
Laurel, MD 20723

52 spots left and i haven't gotten the weekend registrations yet. Don't get shut out!

Hey Dick,

What hotels are close to the park?

not sure, the best ones are in columbia, md which is within 15 minutes. there are some nice ones near the lake.

i'll look around and see if i can find any closer.

go to hotels.com and punch in marriotsville, md.

the best and closest is turf valley resort. pricey, but defiinitely nice...

hyatt place looks nice too!

Hey Dick,

What hotels are close to the park?



Early leader for post of the year.

almost half full. 42 spots remain.

Players may be hesitant to participate since the logo appears to be either prison or sexual assault related.

hey, it's a cool stamp. can't help it if you are intimidated. must be afraid to face me at your home course!

Ummm...I registered early and punked you there today. Where is this fear you reference?

it's that thing you are masking with false bravado.

so far i am undefeated this year against you in pdga events.

nothing else matters.

except for the ratings of course!

2 weeks till showtime and we are over half full.

2 weeks till showtime and we are over half full.



The pre-reg list shows 33. Your max is 72. This is half full? Are these the same great math skills that contributed to your incorrect Zingles scorecard on Saturday?

maybe if you knew how to work a computer and refresh the page. it was at 39 on monday when i posted that. now at 49.

23 spots remaining and going fast.

I'd report that as a vicious personal attack, but I would only get suspended as a result.

probably.

I signed up yesterday. Just wanted to make sure you got my entry as I did not see my name on the players list today.

list is updated today. after you sign up i get an email with the info in the middle of the night. i then update the next day usually.

14 SPOTS REMAINING (http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7755) ! Don't miss out, SIGN UP NOW! (http://www.pdgasignup.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1204719789)

I signed up yesterday.



Just another guy looking for the fist.

9 spots left!

Dick called and asked if he could auction off my presence on a first round card as added ace pot money. I told him sure. You can also specifically request not to fold in the presence of greatness in the first round for $10.

FULL

Dear Discers,

Dick is on the phone right now struggling with the quandry of all of you latecomers now attempting to register. Dick isn't capable of saying no. I've graciously offered to handle this for Dick by calling/emailing/pm'ing back any of you stragglers. I look forward to communicating with you. Have a nice day.

Is there a Patapsco course map or scorecard available for download?

they usually have them at the ranger station. I can see if they can fax me one over so i can post it.

map (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Dome/8338/Patapsco/patapsco.swf)

they'll give you a scorecard at the ranger station if they are there.

That map link didn't work for me.... :(

They have not started charging on the weekends yet...Correct?

They have a honor system box up with a sign instructing you to feed it. No one has been at the gate when we've been in there Zingling lately. I'm not aware of the rangers driving around and checking mirror hangers. The box is 50-50 most days as to whether or not you can put your envelope in it, so I suspect it will be unusable with 50 or so cars coming in.

Can't wait to come and play the course for the first time.

They have a honor system box up with a sign instructing you to feed it.



So they charge year round, even on weekdays?!?! Man! I just drove right on in Friday. I thought it was like Seneca where they start charging (on weekends only) from mid-late April until October or so.

Here's (http://www.geocities.com/meklir/Patapsco/overview.html) a good link to that Patapsco course map. :cool:

i think you need flash enabled for the other one. works fine on my end.

They have a honor system box up with a sign instructing you to feed it. No one has been at the gate when we've been in there Zingling lately. I'm not aware of the rangers driving around and checking mirror hangers. The box is 50-50 most days as to whether or not you can put your envelope in it, so I suspect it will be unusable with 50 or so cars coming in.



a month or so ago when the back gate to the DG course was shut due to ice, we had to park by the BB courts and start on 6. the ranger came by to see if we had mirror tags. most of us had tried to pay, but the box was too stuffed full to get another envelope into it. you couldn't even fit 2 $1 bills into it. i had taken an envelope and had two bucks in it and handed it to him and explained the situation. he didn't say much and seemed to have a bit of a tude. i don't think he believed me.

Can't wait to come and play the course for the first time.



You'll get over that after Dick's inspirational players meeting speech, and the first round.

I think I can handle it HawkGammon figuring I play a 8800 foot course every day that is par 66 :) (Moraine State Park) This is my kind of golf. The more wooded and longer, the better!!!

Also, if anyone is interested, I will be bringing Champion Destroyers with me to the event to help raise money for the Ironwood Open being held April 19-20 in Portersville, PA at Moraine State Park. They are $20. I will try to bring as many as I can. Let me know if you would like me to hold one for you.

fun event. Fun course. Really screwed up the first round, but Oh Well.

Great idea with the ratings based event, it really encouraged a much larger pro field.

Come to the Ironwood Open in 3 weeks north of Pittsburgh, PA if you like Patapsco. Great course that is a true Par 66 with 1000 rated tees, 950 rated tees and 900 rated tees. Not to be missed, should be a huge payout as well. Should be close to $1000 added cash.

dang. i meant to seek you out and get one of those.

i guess being on the same card for both rounds wasn't enough to make me remember to ask. lol

nice tourney, rich. i like the ratings breaks. way to get the scores up almost by the time i got home. nice and prompt awards as well.

Paul I had a blast playing with you. That was a great second round we put together. I'm still kicking myself for getting 4 4's on the last 5 holes though. Oh well. If you want one of those destroyers I can always send you one for $2.95 shipping. Let me know if ya want one.

Thanks for running this ratings based event and on one of my favorite courses (when it's mowed!). Hopefully players are starting to warm up to the idea once they play an event like this, at least to play/host some events in every location each year.

BTW, last night I changed the default online par from 54 to 68 and 62 for your online stats to get closer to what they probably were. Rich can go in and adjust if needed.

Chuck. Par for Patapsco should be closer to 62. Me and Jerry Gotcher shot 64 and me 66 on Friday.

Apparently it's long versus short tees. No way that long layout should be less than par 66 with Jim Myers shooting 1004 with that score. Usually par is anywhere from the same as SSA to 5 or 6 higher depending on how it was set, but rarely lower than SSA.

I know Chuck. Long tees I would say goes like this.

Hole 1 - 4
Hole 2 - 3.5
Hole 3 - 3.5
Hole 4 - 4
Hole 5 - 3.5
Hole 6 - 3.5
Hole 7 - 4.5
Hole 8 - 3.5
Hole 9 - 3
Hole 10 - 4
Hole 11 - 4
Hole 12 - 3
Hole 13 - 4
Hole 14 - 3
Hole 15 - 3
Hole 16 - 4
Hole 17 - 4
Hole 18 - 3.5

So maybe 65.6 at the best for par at 66. Jim also said how horrible his 66 was. Like I said on Satiurday Jerry shot a 64 and me a 66. We are both 967 rated players. There is no way the par is higher than 66. No chance at all. Unfortunately most of this course has a lot of tweener holes. It is a great course, but could use all of these .5 holes to be slightly adjusted for correct 1000 rated par.

and for shorts at 62. NO way. I 4'd 4 of my last 5 holes like an idiot and still shot a 59.

I'd say 65/57 for par

Because the course is so wooded, it's possible to have par maybe one throw less than SSA, especially with the tweeners as you point out. However, having course par 4 shots below SSA isn't impossible but highly unlikely a designer would do that where most hole scoring averages were on the high side of par for the hole.

I hear ya Chuck. I am comparing to Moraine. Where the course SSA has come in within 1 stroke of the Par of 66 for the 1000 rated tees and the 950 rated tees. In all 4 events there, the par of 66 has been right on. I believe if the long tees are supposed to be 1000 rated tees, then a true course par there would be a 64 considering all the tweeners. I did really like the course, but there are quite a few holes where most players 970 - 1000+ would all be getting about the same score whether or not they played the whole really good or just average. Not trying to argue with you, but there is no way it is a Par 68. I played just about the worst round of golf I can remember in years with a 74 and it was a 940 something round. In reality, should have been closer to 900 or less. I think the fact that you had so many 960 and below rated players will really mess with the true SSA of the course.

Not sure what pins you played but I think they have three pins on most holes. Many times, the A or B pin can be better for scoring spread than the longest pin depending on the division. When you have many divisions playing the same tees, some holes will be better for some divisions for scoring spread and other holes better for other divisions.

I know Chuck. Long tees I would say goes like this.

Hole 1 - 4
Hole 2 - 3.5
Hole 3 - 3.5
Hole 4 - 4
Hole 5 - 3.5
Hole 6 - 3.5
Hole 7 - 4.5
Hole 8 - 3.5
Hole 9 - 3
Hole 10 - 4
Hole 11 - 4
Hole 12 - 3
Hole 13 - 4
Hole 14 - 3
Hole 15 - 3
Hole 16 - 4
Hole 17 - 4
Hole 18 - 3.5

So maybe 65.6 at the best for par at 66. Jim also said how horrible his 66 was. Like I said on Satiurday Jerry shot a 64 and me a 66. We are both 967 rated players. There is no way the par is higher than 66. No chance at all. Unfortunately most of this course has a lot of tweener holes. It is a great course, but could use all of these .5 holes to be slightly adjusted for correct 1000 rated par.



It was fun trying to guesstimate the gold-level (1000-rated) par for the long course. At the beginning of our Saturday practice round, Deitzel and I debated on whether or not to declare specific tweener holes as "tough par 3s" or "easy par 4s". We decided to simply assign the "half-par" system to our estimates and I believe our original estimate was 62.5. Based upon Deitzel's list of individual hole pars (above), I see he has adjusted a few upward in regard to our practice round discussion on this topic.....probably due to the way we played them during the tournament! :DHad we adjusted the half-pars upward to whole numbers, our guesstimate would have placed par around 66.

Here's (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=73) the course statistics resulting from previously sanctioned events at Patapsco Valley State Park.

Not sure what pins you played but I think they have three pins on most holes. Many times, the A or B pin can be better for scoring spread than the longest pin depending on the division. When you have many divisions playing the same tees, some holes will be better for some divisions for scoring spread and other holes better for other divisions.



Chuck is 100% correct.

As for the Patapsco Punisher tournament, the longest pin placements (c-pins) were utilized for every hole on both rounds. Thanks to Rich and tournament staff for a really fun event. It was quite punishing as promised. :)

Moraine was designed quite bit later than Patapsco. Its tees and pin placements were chosen and later tweaked using the latest design documents to get the scoring spreads as good as possible for each skill level. Patapsco didn't have that benefit. Ideally, someone from the design group should review their data and determine the best pins for different divisions and possibly adjust them for the future based on the latest information. It's unlikely that all As, all Bs or all Cs are good for any one division from either tee.

I know their normal pin rotation has been to have six in each position to keep the daily play difficulty roughly the same all year. That was very forward looking and I think a policy that should be adopted on many courses with multiple pins.

Thanks for the adjustment. Don't have much knowledge of SSA, but i trust your judgement on that. We had all the pins in C position , which will hereafter be known as punisher positions according to Jim, or Full Punishment Mode. Ideally i would like to have a few pins in different locations for playing casually, one of my favorites is the a pin on 12 which is bascally a hyzer into the tree line, with a huge drop off behind the pin. very risk/reward. Normally during the year, we keep the pins in the 666 mode, since we have 3 pins on most baskets, we use 6 A pins, 6 B Pins, and 6 C pins. Next year i may move up the food chain if i can get some help with the goal of returning to an A tier someday and 2 day event. 1 am day and 1 pro day. i would do the ams in 666 mode and the pros in full punishment mode.

BTW, i wonder how my 10 on hole 7 affected the ssa of that hole! /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

It was fun trying to guesstimate the gold-level (1000-rated) par for the long course. At the beginning of our Saturday practice round, Deitzel and I debated on whether or not to declare specific tweener holes as "tough par 3s" or "easy par 4s". We decided to simply assign the "half-par" system to our estimates and I believe our original estimate was 62.5. Based upon Deitzel's list of individual hole pars (above), I see he has adjusted a few upward in regard to our practice round discussion on this topic.....probably due to the way we played them during the tournament! :DHad we adjusted the half-pars upward to whole numbers, our guesstimate would have placed par around 66.




Pro par is rarely set for gold-level (1000-rated) players. Pro par is typically set for 950-rated blue level golfers.

I had a conversation once with course designer Jim Myers out at Patapsco about 5 years ago and when playing from the long tees to all baskets in the long 'C' pin positions, he considered every hole a pro par 4.

While individual hole scoring averages could be examined to settle the debate, here's what I consider par from all long tees to all baskets in the long 'C' pin positions:

<ul type="square"> Hole 1 - par 4 Hole 2 - par 4 Hole 3 - par 4 Hole 4 - par 4 Hole 5 - par 4 Hole 6 - par 4 Hole 7 - par 5 Hole 8 - par 4 Hole 9 - par 3 Front nine = par 36 Hole 10 - par 4 Hole 11 - par 4 Hole 12 - par 3 Hole 13 - par 4 Hole 14 - par 4 Hole 15 - par 3 Hole 16 - par 4 Hole 17 - par 4 Hole 18 - par 4 Back nine = par 34 total course par = 70 SSA = 66.5, which makes sense since scratch scoring average is typically about 4-5 strokes below course par. [/list]

8, 10(which i 3'd both rounds), 11, 14 and 18 as par 4's for a 950 rated player? doubtful.

8 - midrange or easy drive down the middle, easy up for the 3
10 - drive to between a and b pin, up for the 3. maybe a 3.5
11 - takes 2 decent drives and hopefully you are on the green. possibly this is a 4.
14 stright up the alley, easy approach for the 3. got this both rounds also.
15 - more of a par 4 than 14. especially if you botch the approach.
18 - straight down to the a pin and approach for the 3. maybe a 3.5

obviously it's been a while since you've played long to c there. now's your chance before we put it back in 666 config.

You got some very nice 3's on hole 10, but a 2 is nearly impossible for any level player. I agree with the course par that Jeff posted. Almost every hole is a par 4, a couple hard par 3's, and one par 5.

I really miss Patapsco, especially in the long to C "Pawtapsco" layout. Wish I could have made it for the tourney (although playing Saturday on a ball golf course in Oceanside, CA with golf carts was pretty darn tasty!). I miss par 4 golf!!! DD

What would you reckon the elevation gain on hole#14 is? 25 feet? 30 feet? It plays A LOT longer than the listed distance because of that elevation gain. Conversely, at 468' and downhill the whole way, hole#15 plays a lot shorter than that distance - a bombed airshot or roller will get you way down there. Although the pin is protected and that green is quite fast. I think we can agree that par for the two holes is probably 7. Which would bring course par down to 69.

I think hole 14 would yield a scoring average much closer to 3 than 4 for the 1000-rated club.

even for the 950s

Hey Paul....it was nice to meet you at Patapsco. Thanks for the Jim Beam during the second round.... :D :D

I think hole 14 would yield a scoring average much closer to 3 than 4 for the 1000-rated club.



Again, pro par is typically set for 950-rated blue level golfers, not 1000-rated gold level golfers. And no matter whether you consider hole#14 or hole#15 the pro par four, it pretty much works out to par 7 for the two holes.

I think hole 14 would yield a scoring average much closer to 3 than 4 for the 1000-rated club.



Again, pro par is typically set for 950-rated blue level golfers, not 1000-rated gold level golfers. And no matter whether you consider hole#14 or hole#15 the pro par four, it pretty much works out to par 7 for the two holes.



You are correct that a large number of courses out there equate to 950-rated par, but more gold-level courses are being designed specifically for the 1000-rated player (i.e. Winthrop Gold, Idlewild, Moraine State Park, Renny Gold, Highbridge Gold, etc.). Our newest par-66 course near Pittsburgh, Deer Lakes Park, has what I refer to as 975-rated blue tees. :cool:

Patapsco was designed before the player rating system was created, thus, the blue tees were simply designed for the professional skill set. Par is not listed on the Patapsco scorecard, probably because the par changes when several of the holes are played in different configurations. As previously posted on this thread, Deitzel and I were attempting to calculate what <u>gold-level</u> par would be for the Punisher layout (long tees to c-pins). :)

"Thanks for the Jim Beam during the second round"

huh? certainly you guys weren't drinking during the round?

Hey Paul....it was nice to meet you at Patapsco. Thanks for the Jim Beam during the second round.... :D :D



I'm shocked! :eek: Shocked I say!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

We were consuming Jim Beam (http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/JimBeam.jpg) during the round. :D

^^^ that's some BOMB goods right there.
They make jerky as well. good stuff there too.

You are correct that a large number of courses out there equate to 950-rated par, but more gold-level courses are being designed specifically for the 1000-rated player (i.e. Winthrop Gold, Idlewild, Moraine State Park, Renny Gold, Highbridge Gold, etc.). Our newest par-66 course near Pittsburgh, Deer Lakes Park, has what I refer to as 975-rated blue tees. :cool:

Patapsco was designed before the player rating system was created, thus, the blue tees were simply designed for the professional skill set. Par is not listed on the Patapsco scorecard, probably because the par changes when several of the holes are played in different configurations. As previously posted on this thread, Deitzel and I were attempting to calculate what <u>gold-level</u> par would be for the Punisher layout (long tees to c-pins). :)



Again, while courses may be designed for gold level (1000+ rated) golfers, par is set according to blue level (950-rated) golfers.

If gold-level par were a common thing, you'd have 600+ foot par 3s because the scoring average for gold rated players would round down to three on those. With the exception of hole#7 which would be a gold level par four, nearly every Blue tee-C pin hole at Patapsco would be a gold level par 3 since the scoring average for 1000+ rated players would be between 3.0 and 3.4 on nearly all of them.

Again, while courses may be designed for gold level (1000+ rated) golfers, par is set according to blue level (950-rated) golfers.



Not according to the Suggested PDGA Par Guidelines. (http://pdga.com/documents/PublicPar.pdf)


If gold-level par were a common thing, you'd have 600+ foot par 3s because the scoring average for gold rated players would round down to three on those. With the exception of hole#7 which would be a gold level par four, nearly every Blue tee-C pin hole at Patapsco would be a gold level par 3 since the scoring average for 1000+ rated players would be between 3.0 and 3.4 on nearly all of them.



I disagree. Without spreading the hole-by-hole Scratch Scoring Average for 1000-rated players (SSA), one can only speculate on the SSA for each individual hole at Patapsco. The PDGA does provide the SSA data for sanctioned events and the following gold level courses show that the scoring data for such courses closely reflects the designated gold-level par:

Winthrop Gold ~ (par 68) (http://pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=45)

Moraine State Park ~ (par 66) (http://pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=3004)

Pymatuning State Park ~ (par 66) (http://pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=3514)

Renaissance Park ~ (par 70) (http://pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=247)

Charlotte's Web ~ (par 69) (http://pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_tournament.php?TournID=6964)

Highbridge Gold ~ (par 63) (http://pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=2898)

Idlewild ~ (par 72 long / par 67 short) (http://pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=1745)


Patapsco Valley State Park ~ (par ?) (http://pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=73)

What is the official par for Patapsco? Should it now be considered as one of the few gold-level (1000-rated) courses in existence or is the design simply considered as one of the more challenging blue level (950-rated) courses? Obviously, these are questions for the local club and/or course designers. Patapsco was originally designed back in 1995, long before player ratings, and the c-pin layout was installed around the time the player rating system was introduced. Like many courses dating back to that era, long and short tees were simply referred to as "pro" and "am" tees, respectively.