Registrations have been flooding in, to do so:
http://par72discgolf.clientcart.com/Tournaments/-/77

To see who is already in:
Pro NT: http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7286

Ams A tier:
http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7304

135 players per pool, sign up early folks, it will fill well before.
For more info:
www.mnmajestic.com (http://www.mnmajestic.com)

New for 2008, other than National Tour status is a new 3 day format. We, the Minnesota Frisbee Association, pride ourselves in showcasing our sport and what we bring to it. The format change was made to not only offer an excellent array of challenges for the players but to showcase the Professional players that will be attending.
Friday, the new addition of Blue Ribbon Pines Disc Golf Club. The ams will tee off at 9am. The pro's will tee at 2:30pm. 1 round of 27.
7pm players party with a cash money long Distance comp, music and other field events.

Saturday: Ams tee 9am at Hyland Ski, Snowboard and Disc Golf Area. 1 round of 27.
Pro's, Noon tee time at Kaposia, 27 holes. Post round players party with mini golf, free food and beverages.

Sunday: Ams 8am tee, 27 holes at Kaposia.
Pros, 8:30am tee at HSSA, 27 holes.
Final 9 for the top 4 men and top 3 women, 2pm.
The change to shotgun starts will get travelers on the road by 5pm Sunday.

The mix of courses will make for some exciting action, all caught on film for the DVD. (2007 DVD coming soon).
Blue Ribbon offers many tight wooded holes, with a few open bombs. A handful of signature holes and quite possibly the most manicured course on the National Tour.

Kaposia offers many wooded holes as well, with more elevation changes than BRP. The back gorge holes will be permanent this spring, they play a little different from 4 years ago, but those that played last year will have played the new holes.

HSSA is a hilly, open, technical course overlooking the Twin Cities. New for this year is 2 par 4 wooded holes.
HSSA is a perfect venue for spectators and filming. The showcase final sets up beautifully here.

Camping is available just 1.2 miles from Hyland SSA this year as well. Its actually in the same park, but you have to drive around the lake to get there. Beautiful site overlooking Hyland Lake. $5 per night, per person. 80 person max, reserve your spot on the pre reg page.

Stay tuned to DGTV as we will have video with more info and course fly by's.
For more info, (if you don't find it on the website) please email me rather than rely on the board here, I'll try to check in here periodically. [email protected]

this will be my 4th year, looking forward to it! will get in wednesday for sundog at hssa. hopefully a practice round at brp on thursday. PM me if there is someone out there that will join me at brp.

National Tour Clinic Series

presented by the PDGA, the touring players and The Majestic

Come and see what everyone has been raving about. We have a great group of instructors for The Majestic and we will be kicking off the SunDog event that evening at Hyland Hills. The clinic will be from 3pm-5pm and you will still be able to tee off for league right afterward. Yes, that means put in for a half day of work on Wednesday the 28th right now as you won't want to miss this.

--Barry Schultz (Driving)
--Geoff Bennett (Forehands and Thumbers)
--Peter Shive (Approach and Course Managment)
--Ken "The Tank" Franks (Putting)

Majestic Week
Tuesday - Sundog @ Kaposia, flex start 3-5, shotgun start at 6
Wednesday - Sundog @ HSSA, NT Clinic 3-5
Thursday - Majestic Doubles, flex start 2-4, player check in
Friday - Day 1 @ BRP, distance contest, etc
Saturday - Day 2, ams @ HSSA, pros @ Kaposia, players party/mini golf @ Kaposia
Sunday - Day 3, ams @ Kaposia, pros @ HSSA, final nine, distance showcase, awards, etc.

I see that there will be some CA players there. Go NorCAl!!! Come on, Fiedler and Hagen. Also rooting for Dave Avery and Jennifer Smith (rooting for you too, Kristi); Minnesota transplants from Ceres(the dog star and goddess of agriculture, CA). Good luck everybody. Hope to see another jump putt on the final hole to take it to sudden death on www.dgtv.com (http://www.dgtv.com) !!

Hope to see another jump putt on the final hole to take it to sudden death on www.dgtv.com (http://www.discgolftv.com) !!



Exactly! I don't care who it is, just as long as we get some drama down the stretch.

***UPDATE***

Thursday 5/29:
Player check-in and Majestic Doubles have changed locations from Kaposia to Blue Ribbon Pines. Players are not required to check in on Thursday if they do not wish to. They will be able to receive their players pack (merch/newsletter/food ticket/etc) before or after their round on Friday.

This change will drastically decrease the setup/tear down time on Thursday and Friday morning. It will also showcase all of the courses being played prior to the event. Because of this change we have extended the doubles flex start to 2-5pm. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Will the temp baskets be up at HSSA on Wednesday?
Will the temp baskets be up at Kaposia on Thursday?

Good luck this weekend OMB!!

So I've heard that Chandler Fry (young gun) and Al Hermisillo won the pro doubles, eh? Even taking an eagle on hole 4!! That's awesome, way to represent the PNW Chanman.

Yep, Chandler parked it with an Xcaliber.

Scores are up...stay tuned.

No live scoring?

Sounds like Final 9 on Sunday will have live scoring.

Sounds like Final 9 on Sunday will have live scoring.



There is Live Scoring right now! :cool:

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/live.php?TournID=7286

Is anybody getting anything on the DiscGolfTV.com live shots? Doesn't seem to be working for me.

Is anybody getting anything on the DiscGolfTV.com live shots? Doesn't seem to be working for me.



I think it is only for Sunday, maybe even just for the final 9. either way it should be cool.

What time(est) do this boys TEE off.

About one minute ago.

Live scoring?

What time does the discgolftv live throw show begin? Yes, I need answers.

Chappy, who's the official marshal for the event, did it on his own yesterday following the top group. As he's able to, maybe he'll do it again once they get underway.

I am eagerly awaiting some discgolf action. I can imagine it, or see it live. The anticipation is, well.....

Live scoring?



http://www.pdga.com/tournament/live.php?TournID=7286

Got it, but what time do they tee-off.

They've been playing for 90 minutes already. Chappy must not able to break away from marshal duties to handle it or maybe the palm signal isn't good. That's unlikely though on an open hill in the metro area.

well, thats a shame. At least they tried.

The live feed on discgolftv.com isnt working for me. Anyone else haveing problems veiwing it?

Bennett with an ACE!

2 aces!!!

Way to go, Bennett!

Hopefully the cams were running.

Joe

Live Scoring is now ready for both the men and women in the Final 9.

Hopefully the live shots on Discgolftv work.

Live Scoring is now ready for both the men and women in the Final 9.



It's up: http://www.pdga.com/tournament/live.php?TournID=7286

Hole#1 was listed as a par 3, but with all competitors taking a score of four, it surely must not have been. :confused:

why arent you out there chuck?

And now live scoring is gone completely? :confused:

I was just looking at scores and ratings...somebody needs to get that boy in Advance a big bag of sand...

Cut the Z man some slack. This was like his 6th tournemen ...ever. Look for him kicking your arse on a pro card soon.

I am guessing Barry, closed it out,
then DCJ,



Could be wrong, ya never know.

who won?

Cut the Z man some slack. This was like his 6th tournemen ...ever. Look for him kicking your arse on a pro card soon.


Boy is legit. Played with him first round at the Bowling Green Amateur Championships and everyone on my card was fairly certain we were looking at the BG Ams champ after that round was over, too bad he didn't pull it off. But he's a hell of a player.

who won?



Barry.

On another note: way to go displaced Toledoan JAYNE SNIDER! Ripping the Am Women to pieces in her first ever sanctioned event as a PDGA member! She got her first discs in late Spring 2007! Barely a year an she's playing 900 rated rounds, talk about progress!

why arent you out there chuck?



I was out there watching starting around noon.

Barry's drive slid under a car on the grass to the side of the 7th hole in the Finals. The car had been there all day next to a booth selling goods. During the regular round this was an OB area. However, for the safari hole, that area was inbounds. Strict rule interpretation would say the car shouldn't be moved. However, Marshal Chappy allowed the car to be moved. Dave got ticked off and complained that the car shouldn't have been moved. He and Barry were tied at the time.

I didn't see it but Dave's drive on the next hole apparently went under a permanent shack, ironically named "Kenny's Shack" for the guy who normally mans it during ski season. Someone said KC also went under it in last year's event. Dave took a 5 and Barry 3 with one hole remaining.

Chappy's ruling regarding the car was that since the tents and car were placed properly out of play all day and the temp course was a new layout, these interference items could be moved and should have been before the hole was played.

Regarding Bennett's aces, one was forehand and one was backhand. The second one was on hole 16 with two remaining before the Finals. Bennett said that Dave was pointing out Geoff was one out of making the Finals. After throwing the ace, Geoff asked, "What's the score now?" :cool:

Des buzzed the basket on hole 18 on the big downhill 711 ft hole in the Finals which set off the crowd. Cameras were running so you'll get to see this action on DGTV at some point.

back to back majestics with controversy!!

ive never played the courses so this following opinion may be ignorant....but....

Why would ANY parking area EVER be in bounds? seems like the issue could have been resolved playing with the normal OB.

However....based on the fact it was NOT ob during the finals, I agree with Chaps decision. The cars normally wouldn't be there had this been a normal IB area.

But to me, it seems lots of controversy could have been avoided by just using the same OB.

Anyone know why this was IB in finals but not in the normal round?

Sorry about the live scoring today, folks. PDGA.com was inaccessible early in round 3, but I managed to catch up with it about 2/3 of the way into round 3. Unfortunately, the live scoring went down on me entirely on hole 4 of the final 9. Hopefully we'll get that wrinkle worked out for next week. Jack and I are going to try and do live scoring for 3 groups simultaneously at the final round of the Wide Open.

Chap

The hole during the regular round was a downhill shot about 290 with a gravel path about 40 feet past the basket. Path and across was OB. The vendor booths were set up across the gravel path in the OB area on a grassy strip about 45 feet wide between the property fence and the gravel path which was a main walkway for players and spectators to get around. The car was the vendor's who was the last booth in the row back to the left of the pin and not in the direct sight line for players during the regular round. No other vehicles were there.

The Final 9 hole played from a tee 375 feet to the right of the basket following along the path. They decided not to call the path and across OB because of the angle. Two booths and the car could maybe have been moved before the hole was played but nobody thought about the change in rules and the impact. The vendors didn't know the safari layout. You can ask why the TD included that safari hole but it had to do with the flow for the Final 9 layout and it did make sense going that way.

Chuck laid it out well above. In retrospect, we probably should have made that area OB or made a drop zone ala the PGA Tour when someone hits a ball into the bleachers. Live and learn. Point is there never should have been a car in an in-bounds area (that only became in-bounds during the round), so I gave relief according to 803.05B I think (sorry, I shouldn't be driving and typing....and can't pull the exact reference for you). Yes, the car was there all day, but it only became a factor in the final 9 because it was OB until that point.

Chap

Way to go, Nate Doss's caddy, Jim Hagen, for taking down the Masters! :cool:

I'll change the subject...

Who won the USDGC spots?

I still don't see final scores posted. What is the order of finish for the top 4 men and top 3 women?

Thanks

I'll change the subject...

Who won the USDGC spots?

What is the order of finish for the top 4 men and top 3 women?

I'm pretty sure it was Barry, Dave, Cale, Geoff and Val, Des, Angela.

Chuck laid it out well above. In retrospect, we probably should have made that area OB or made a drop zone ala the PGA Tour when someone hits a ball into the bleachers. Live and learn. Point is there never should have been a car in an in-bounds area (that only became in-bounds during the round), so I gave relief according to 803.05B I think (sorry, I shouldn't be driving and typing....and can't pull the exact reference for you). Yes, the car was there all day, but it only became a factor in the final 9 because it was OB until that point.

Chap



BAD CALL!!

If the car was there it SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MOVED.

Where in the rules does it say that a "Marshall" can just make up rules??

If it was a Picnic Bench, Trash Can, or any other object that was there when the round started YOU CAN NOT MOVE IT.
Very clear.....

Sorry John...YOU SCREWED UP....Admit it and everyone(But Dave) will move on.
:p

A marshal goes out as a spotter for the lead card on the first hole of a round and gets in position before the 2-minute warning. Let's say he rode out in golf cart like they have at some courses. The first drive is coming right at the spotter. According to the rules, the marshal cannot duck or move. In addition, the golf cart now needs to stay in the same location throughout the round. I'd say fault of the rules, not the actions of the marshal to move or to continue riding the cart to other locations on the course as needed during the round.

Arguing with Chuck is like a Monty Python Sketch (http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm)...

C. Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, <font color="red"> motor vehicles </font> , harmful insects or animals, players� equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole. The type of relief a player may obtain is based on the location of the obstacle and is limited as follows:
(1) Casual obstacles between the lie and the hole: A player may move obstacles which became a factor during the round as described by 803.05 B.
(2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. <font color="red"> If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player�s lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official </font>



i take this to mean that barry should've been allowed relief but the car should not have been moved.

There were some other interesting situations regarding rules at the Majestic so I'm opening a topic in the Rules area for those interested.

doubt they moved any cars for this event in Asheville!!

Urban Skins!

http://www.wncdiscgolf.com/msf_2008/

I'll change the subject...

Who won the USDGC spots?



Pretty sure its...

Adam Olsen
Jon Drummond
Riley Brenner
Jim Hagen
Geno LaForge

Read what I said before. I think Timmy gave his TD spot to Brian Donahue and then Timmy got in as a qualifier at the Majestic ahead of Hagen and knocking out Geno.

Read what I said before. I think Timmy gave his TD spot to Brian Donahue and then Timmy got in as a qualifier at the Majestic ahead of Hagen and knocking out Geno.



You are correct!

What a Great Event! Timmy Gill and crew did an amazing job. Dinner was provided after rounds Fri and Sat, fun/well kept courses, staff everywhere, spectators, water for participants on the courses, awesome payout, and 265 total disc golfers. This was my 4th year in a row and I don't plan to ever miss the Majestic. NT next year??!!!! This week KCWO. I think this a pretty good stretch of disc golf events. DSM Challenge, MN Majestic, and KCWO.

I heard Barry was only 100 feet from the basket and could of just stuck his leg under the car and done a thumber for par anyway.

I heard Barry was only 100 feet from the basket and could of just stuck his leg under the car and done a thumber for par anyway.



Or.. he coulda have played by the existing rules and seen what happened.

He could have played behind the car in line of play to the basket or he could have stuck his leg under the car, twisted his ankle, hit his hand on the mirror doing a thumber, causing him to be MORE than 100 feet away. :p

We'll NEVER KNOW, because the rules were changed for him. :eek:

I heard Barry was only 100 feet from the basket and could of just stuck his leg under the car and done a thumber for par anyway.



Or.. he coulda have played by the existing rules and seen what happened.

He could have played behind the car in line of play to the basket or he could have stuck his leg under the car, twisted his ankle, hit his hand on the mirror doing a thumber, causing him to be MORE than 100 feet away. :p

We'll NEVER KNOW, because the rules were changed for him. :eek:



maybe when he stuck his foot under the car, the car would have mysteriously gone into neutral and almost run over his leg causing barry to freak out and pick up his disc and throw it at dave feldber!?

Chuck laid it out well above. In retrospect, we probably should have made that area OB or made a drop zone ala the PGA Tour when someone hits a ball into the bleachers. Live and learn. Point is there never should have been a car in an in-bounds area (that only became in-bounds during the round), so I gave relief according to 803.05B I think (sorry, I shouldn't be driving and typing....and can't pull the exact reference for you). Yes, the car was there all day, but it only became a factor in the final 9 because it was OB until that point.

Chap



BAD CALL!!

If the car was there it SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MOVED.

Where in the rules does it say that a "Marshall" can just make up rules??

If it was a Picnic Bench, Trash Can, or any other object that was there when the round started YOU CAN NOT MOVE IT.
Very clear.....

Sorry John...YOU SCREWED UP....Admit it and everyone(But Dave) will move on.
:p



But he didn't screw up. As he clearly stated, the course changed. It is simply a matter of the TD not taking into account the changing of the course for the safari holes.

This is yet another reason that IMHO safari holes should not decide a contest, they are fun for recreation golf, but have no play in tournament settings. You and no one that made it to the finals has played the safari holes to get to that point, why is it our sport thinks that it is ok to "Make UP Courses" to decide winners, that is far worst again IMHO, or not so humble...

If you change a course you change everything, and interpretation then becomes subjective to a point. As chuck clearly pointed out (as I myself will be in a golf cart this weekend) scenarios do change, and the rules are in place to handle MOST situations, but some require thought processing that is typical from those that have experience in matters.


No where does it say in the Rules that a Marshal can make up the rules, but in many instances the rule book clearly states, a majority of the group or an "Official". The Marshal is the TOP official at an event, and therefore their ruling is the final ruling.

This situation is unique, yes, but I can bet you that Timmy did not intend to allow vehicles to park on the course in play, so let them do so during the round, where this was OB, then the Finals it became IB and it should have been addressed, as it was John made what I feel is the right ruling, and I would have made it in a similar fashion as well.

But then do you think that I would not come to the same conclusion being from here and all?

Chuck laid it out well above. In retrospect, we probably should have made that area OB or made a drop zone ala the PGA Tour when someone hits a ball into the bleachers. Live and learn. Point is there never should have been a car in an in-bounds area (that only became in-bounds during the round), so I gave relief according to 803.05B I think (sorry, I shouldn't be driving and typing....and can't pull the exact reference for you). Yes, the car was there all day, but it only became a factor in the final 9 because it was OB until that point.

Chap



BAD CALL!!

If the car was there it SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MOVED.

Where in the rules does it say that a "Marshall" can just make up rules??

If it was a Picnic Bench, Trash Can, or any other object that was there when the round started YOU CAN NOT MOVE IT.
Very clear.....

Sorry John...YOU SCREWED UP....Admit it and everyone(But Dave) will move on.
:p



But he didn't screw up. As he clearly stated, the course changed. It is simply a matter of the TD not taking into account the changing of the course for the safari holes.

This is yet another reason that IMHO safari holes should not decide a contest, they are fun for recreation golf, but have no play in tournament settings. You and no one that made it to the finals has played the safari holes to get to that point, why is it our sport thinks that it is ok to "Make UP Courses" to decide winners, that is far worst again IMHO, or not so humble...

If you change a course you change everything, and interpretation then becomes subjective to a point. As chuck clearly pointed out (as I myself will be in a golf cart this weekend) scenarios do change, and the rules are in place to handle MOST situations, but some require thought processing that is typical from those that have experience in matters.


No where does it say in the Rules that a Marshal can make up the rules, but in many instances the rule book clearly states, a majority of the group or an "Official". The Marshal is the TOP official at an event, and therefore their ruling is the final ruling.

This situation is unique, yes, but I can bet you that Timmy did not intend to allow vehicles to park on the course in play, so let them do so during the round, where this was OB, then the Finals it became IB and it should have been addressed, as it was John made what I feel is the right ruling, and I would have made it in a similar fashion as well.

But then do you think that I would not come to the same conclusion being from here and all?



The issue is that the RULE was ignored..... :confused:

The car WAS there when the players started....so by rule it CANT BE MOVED. Same as a Trash Can, Bench.

The fact that the course "changed" from an OB area to a "Safe" area doesnt really matter. The "object" was there PRIOR to the start and by rule cant be moved.

Apparently, we are allowed to change the rules as we see fit.
That is good to know and an awesome precident that I'll be sure to remember.
:p

Nowhere in the Rules does it address "safari holes"(it is not a course, rather but a hodgepodge of holes to mimick a course.), so for this instance, you can think that the rules were broken, but the people that enforce them disagree.

Adam Olsen
Jon Drummond
Riley Brenner
Jim Hagen
Timmy Gill


...won the USDGC spots. The TD spot for the Majestic was given to Adam Gorres before the event. Adam was basically the managing TD for the event since Timmy was playing.

Chap

Chuck laid it out well above. In retrospect, we probably should have made that area OB or made a drop zone ala the PGA Tour when someone hits a ball into the bleachers. Live and learn. Point is there never should have been a car in an in-bounds area (that only became in-bounds during the round), so I gave relief according to 803.05B I think (sorry, I shouldn't be driving and typing....and can't pull the exact reference for you). Yes, the car was there all day, but it only became a factor in the final 9 because it was OB until that point.

Chap



BAD CALL!!

If the car was there it SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MOVED.

Where in the rules does it say that a "Marshall" can just make up rules??

If it was a Picnic Bench, Trash Can, or any other object that was there when the round started YOU CAN NOT MOVE IT.
Very clear.....

Sorry John...YOU SCREWED UP....Admit it and everyone(But Dave) will move on.
:p



You're certainly entitled to your armchair opinion from 1800 miles away or so. ;) Of course, the object was a car, and not a picnic bench, etc...that was on the course all the time. In fact, the car was off the course until that instant when that hole was played, therefore the car became a factor during the round. The fact remains is that my ruling (as stated earlier, no need to go into it further) is backed up by rule as explained earlier. 803.05B. I'm sure there are other interpretations, but mine was correct by rule, and judging from the civil and professional conversation I had with Dave after the event, he has already accepted the ruling and moved on. We would have moved the car earlier, but no one considered it because it had been out of play (OB) until that instant.

For the record, Barry's lie was probably more like 60-70 feet from the pin.

Chap

Adam Olsen
Jon Drummond
Riley Brenner
Jim Hagen
Timmy Gill


...won the USDGC spots. The TD spot for the Majestic was given to Adam Gorres before the event. Adam was basically the managing TD for the event since Timmy was playing.

Chap



Actually Adam got it last year. This year it was given to Brian Donahue who created the Floater, the tee signs, and several other things. Hats off to him for all his hard work.

Adam Olsen
Jon Drummond
Riley Brenner
Jim Hagen
Timmy Gill


...won the USDGC spots. The TD spot for the Majestic was given to Adam Gorres before the event. Adam was basically the managing TD for the event since Timmy was playing.

Chap



Actually Adam got it last year. This year it was given to Brian Donahue who created the Floater, the tee signs, and several other things. Hats off to him for all his hard work.



I stand corrected. Good for Huey....he's earned it.

Chap

I have read and re-read 803.05 and I have to agree with John.

"A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round".

The course changed, thus the car became a factor during play. Ball golf has a rule similar to this called the Obstruction rule.

Chuck laid it out well above. In retrospect, we probably should have made that area OB or made a drop zone ala the PGA Tour when someone hits a ball into the bleachers. Live and learn. Point is there never should have been a car in an in-bounds area (that only became in-bounds during the round), so I gave relief according to 803.05B I think (sorry, I shouldn't be driving and typing....and can't pull the exact reference for you). Yes, the car was there all day, but it only became a factor in the final 9 because it was OB until that point.

Chap



BAD CALL!!

If the car was there it SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MOVED.

Where in the rules does it say that a "Marshall" can just make up rules??

If it was a Picnic Bench, Trash Can, or any other object that was there when the round started YOU CAN NOT MOVE IT.
Very clear.....

Sorry John...YOU SCREWED UP....Admit it and everyone(But Dave) will move on.
:p



You're certainly entitled to your armchair opinion from 1800 miles away or so. ;) Of course, the object was a car, and not a picnic bench, etc...that was on the course all the time. In fact, the car was off the course until that instant when that hole was played, therefore the car became a factor during the round. The fact remains is that my ruling (as stated earlier, no need to go into it further) is backed up by rule as explained earlier. 803.05B. I'm sure there are other interpretations, but mine was correct by rule, and judging from the civil and professional conversation I had with Dave after the event, he has already accepted the ruling and moved on. We would have moved the car earlier, but no one considered it because it had been out of play (OB) until that instant.

For the record, Barry's lie was probably more like 60-70 feet from the pin.

Chap



I understand how you came to the decision that you did.
I surely do not have ALL of the facts from my "armchair" /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

It was my understanding that the car was there BEFORE the finals started. That would make it a part of the course, it shouldnt matter if it changed from an OB area to Safe or not. So then it should not be able to be moved.

Apparently, there are other factors that I am not aware of from my "armchair". These must have led to the decision as it was made. :D

Im sure that Barry would have been able to deal with situation just fine regardless, he was only "60-70' away"

Thats a gimme for a player of that caliber, they NEVER make THOSE mistakes. :p /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Masters Cup :o

Reminds me when I almost won the green jacket... but that uncouthe punk Happy Gilmore ended up winning it.... I had to play a ball off a big oaf's foot and I made sure Happy played his where it landed, no moving of obstacles. Even though the Volkswagen crashed during the round... I swear, I don't know anytthing about that... Gotta go, getting chased by Jaws.

Shooter McGavin

I have read and re-read 803.05 and I have to agree with John.

"A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round".

The course changed, thus the car became a factor during play. Ball golf has a rule similar to this called the Obstruction rule.


I too have an armchair :)

the definition of when a round starts is when the command is given to start. anything that happened or existed before that point does not matter for the purposes of this ruling. The fact that they are "safari" or "made-up" holes (aren't all holes made-up?) also is irrelevant. The players must all be presented with the opportunity to play the same hole layout. If the car existed in that spot when the command was given to start the final 9, then it should not have been intentionally moved until the last putt in that round was made.

I'll give you a hypothetical twist on the ruling and see how you feel about it then:

Dave's shot glanced off of the car and landed under the shed. If the car had not been there, Dave's shot would have been 5 feet from the basket. Barry's landed under the car. Should the car be moved?

This is a stretch of a hypothetical but it's situations like this one that make the rule necessary. If the car exists for all players, even if it doesn't direclty affect their line of play, then it should not be moved. If the owner parked it there *during* the round, things would be different but as it was there at the start of the round, it must stay.

Reminds me when I almost won the green jacket... but that uncouthe punk Happy Gilmore ended up winning it.... I had to play a ball off a big oaf's foot and I made sure Happy played his where it landed, no moving of obstacles. Even though the Volkswagen crashed during the round... I swear, I don't know anytthing about that... Gotta go, getting chased by Jaws.

Shooter McGavin



Haha, This made me think of that movie too!

casual relief rules refer specifically to vehicles and allow for relief- car was definitely there prior to beginning of round in question so seems to me that the casual relief rule would become the go-to on this one.

casual relief rules refer specifically to vehicles and allow for relief- car was definitely there prior to beginning of round in question so seems to me that the casual relief rule would become the go-to on this one.



C. Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players� equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole.

I too have an armchair :)

the definition of when a round starts is when the command is given to start. anything that happened or existed before that point does not matter for the purposes of this ruling. The fact that they are "safari" or "made-up" holes (aren't all holes made-up?) also is irrelevant. The players must all be presented with the opportunity to play the same hole layout. If the car existed in that spot when the command was given to start the final 9, then it should not have been intentionally moved until the last putt in that round was made.



Except that the car was OB during the final 9 UNTIL the 7th hole, when it became in-bounds. That means it became a factor during the round. When the round started is immaterial to the ruling.


I'll give you a hypothetical twist on the ruling and see how you feel about it then:

Dave's shot glanced off of the car and landed under the shed. If the car had not been there, Dave's shot would have been 5 feet from the basket. Barry's landed under the car. Should the car be moved?



What shed? The closest one was about 350 ft. away from the car. That's a pretty bad roll (and highly unlikely), but also immaterial to the situation at hand. Also, unless you're clairvoyant and prescient, there's no way you can know for sure that a disc will end up 5 ft. from the basket. Skips and rolls can often take the disc 50-60 ft. from where you might expect. The car would have been moved before if we'd known it was going to suddenly be in play. That was the mistake that was made, moving it after the fact was not a mistake.


This is a stretch of a hypothetical but it's situations like this one that make the rule necessary.



Actually, you can stretch any hypothetical into an extremely unlikely situation that no rule can possibly address. That's where we expect our officials and TDs to do what's fair, in those unlikely situations. It's patently unfair to park a car in-bounds 60 feet from a hole. I hope we can at least agree on that.


If the car exists for all players, even if it doesn't direclty affect their line of play, then it should not be moved. If the owner parked it there *during* the round, things would be different but as it was there at the start of the round, it must stay.



We'll agree to disagree.

Chap

Except that the car was OB during the final 9 UNTIL the 7th hole, when it became in-bounds. That means it became a factor during the round. When the round started is immaterial to the ruling.


that's a stretch... but even by your logic, it was there for the 7th hole. If all players had to throw their drives with the car in place, it must be left in place for the duration of the hole. It's simply unfair to have an obstacle only apply to some players and not others. If Dave or anyone else threw with that obstacle in place, then it was a factor in their throw. They shouldn't be penalized because they stayed away from the obstacle



I'll give you a hypothetical twist on the ruling and see how you feel about it then:

Dave's shot glanced off of the car and landed under the shed. If the car had not been there, Dave's shot would have been 5 feet from the basket. Barry's landed under the car. Should the car be moved?



What shed? The closest one was about 350 ft. away from the car. That's a pretty bad roll (and highly unlikely), but also immaterial to the situation at hand. Also, unless you're clairvoyant and prescient, there's no way you can know for sure that a disc will end up 5 ft. from the basket. Skips and rolls can often take the disc 50-60 ft. from where you might expect. The car would have been moved before if we'd known it was going to suddenly be in play. That was the mistake that was made, moving it after the fact was not a mistake.


it's a hypothetical. pretend that there was a shed *right next* to the car for all I care. it's hypothetical meaning "what if". my questions was basically "what if player A's shot landed under the car but player B's shot hit the car and landed elsewhere". Player A is being allowed to play his lie as if the car never existed. Player B is not.



This is a stretch of a hypothetical but it's situations like this one that make the rule necessary.



Actually, you can stretch any hypothetical into an extremely unlikely situation that no rule can possibly address. That's where we expect our officials and TDs to do what's fair, in those unlikely situations. It's patently unfair to park a car in-bounds 60 feet from a hole. I hope we can at least agree on that.


I do agree, however it was allowed to remain in place for the other players' shots on the hole. in order to remain as fair as possible in an already unfortunate situation, all players must be treated equally.

It seems to me, and I am not a rules guru, is that moving an obstacle in front of, or on top of a player's lie during their playing of the hole, is a no no. I can not see how this is a rule that a marshal can break, when a player can not break such a rule. The fact that it was a Safari Final Nine makes it even more unreasonable in my book. It's SAFARI GOLF! You are playing the lay of the land, and you don't get special relief unless expressly stated before the hole started.

I played some safari skins this weekend, and was told that "only the paved/concrete parking lot was in bounds" I made it in the lot, went for my putt, and it landed in the grass. Because it was not stated that subsequent shots could land in the grass, that shot was now out of bounds. If it was worded before the tee off, then yeah, if you land under the car, the car can be moved. To argue that it shouldn't be there is moot. It should have been moved before the hole was played if you wanted it moved.

All the players threw their shots with the car as an obstacle. This may have affected the other players decisions as to how and where to throw. Moving the car after the hole is inn play because it affects one person is flawed logic, it affected all of the players, their thought processes, their strategy, etc. I think you had good intentions, but it's simply not a casual obstacle, it's an obstacle. It's not casual relief if you remove the object, you have to allow the player relief farther from the hole than the obstacle.

This one seems like a slam dunk to me. Casual relief if not OB.

Click on this picture of hole 9 at Hyland during the round showing the infamous car beyond the OB gravel path on Shive's drive. For the safari round, players teed off about 375 feet to the right and below the elevation of the pin. The car was not visible to players from that tee.

Not certain there was room between the car and the OB fence even if casual relief was offered. Not sure how the rules work when casual relief puts a player within 1m of OB? No way Barry deserved an unplayable penalty. Considering the booths were also potentially in the way, perhaps a drop zone should be considered in the future to handle relief from event structures similar to how the PGA does it in ball golf.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1374/shivemajestic9hylandwe3.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shivemajestic9hylandwe3.jpg)

honestly, there was a mistake made by the tournament staff, allowing the car to be there in the first place. I think everyone agrees on that. The question though, is how to handle mistakes like this one that can and do happen. Going back to the hypothetical, how would this have been ruled if barry's disc had instead hit the car and gone over the OB fence? I'm assuming that the disc would have been ruled OB since there isn't anything in the rules that allow a different ruling. So basically... the car was allowed to be a factor in shot #1. How, then, can a ruling be made that the car be moved before shot #2? The argument that it became a factor during the round doesn't hold water because the car didn't move during the round.

I'm really not trying to place blame on someone for making a judgment call. What's done is done and it was his call to make at the time. The issue is for *future* calls. Much like the study of case law, we must study this ruling to know how best to handle future rulings. Chap had to make the call without a previous incident to refer to, and he did his best. Now we have an opportunity to determine a more appropriate course of action and learn from it.

SO. if, in the future, a mistake like this is made by the TD... what does the rules committee say is the best way to handle it? To generalize:

An unintentional man-made obstacle exists on the line of play, impeding players' progress through the intended course layout. At what point is it deemed "part of the course"? When can it be moved?

Here's my proposed wording for the Competition Manual for next year:

"The TD has the discretion to move, remove or provide relief from any obstacles that may interfere with the course layout or equipment as intended for play even after the round starts. Care should be taken to make sure that any adjustments will not impact play where some players in a division will have to deal with the obstacle(s) and others will not. This discretion also extends to defining special relief from brush piles and large casual water areas that may have appeared from a recent storm and were not discovered before start of play. In addition, signage may be corrected during the round that was found to be incorrect compared with the official course guide for the event."

I would like to point out that several infractions related to the car being moved were likely incurred without consequences during the round. I suspect that players kicked, tossed or moved range golf balls left on the driving range where a half dozen temp holes were located. The balls were there before the round started. Extending this further, movement of anything in place before the round starts is not allowed like adjusting trash can positions during the round, spotter chairs and even spectators if you want to be precise. If a spectator is sitting there before the round starts, they technically can't move for the rest of the round nor get out of the way when a drive is thrown their way.

rules are for players not spectators- spectators can move as they please unless restricted by staff. if a spectator were sitting in one spot beforehand the argument could be made that a player can't move them but the rules of play don't apply to the spectator's themselves- they are not playing.

sounds like its time to load up on protective gear, get to the course before play begins and stand in front of random basket/fairway/tee (whatever)

some of these discussions are really starting to show just how foolish some of these rules are worded... but I guess the RC never actually expected people (or even themselves) to come up with some of these crazy instances...

rules are for players not spectators- spectators can move as they please unless restricted by staff. if a spectator were sitting in one spot beforehand the argument could be made that a player can't move them but the rules of play don't apply to the spectator's themselves- they are not playing.


Would that also extend to being allowed to move spectator's equipment? If so, then the car could be moved under that interpretation.

rules are for players not spectators- spectators can move as they please unless restricted by staff. if a spectator were sitting in one spot beforehand the argument could be made that a player can't move them but the rules of play don't apply to the spectator's themselves- they are not playing.


Would that also extend to being allowed to move spectator's equipment? If so, then the car could be moved under that interpretation.



Interesting take on this. Let's say my cooler was sitting in that area just in front of the car all day. If someone's drive hit it, I would surely move it because it isn't an integral part of the course. So is there a difference between a cooler and a car?

Interestingly, if the cooler or car was a player's, another player can ask that it be moved based on Interference 803.07A even if it had been there for the whole day. Or can it be moved if it violates Casual Relief as discussed for this incident?

The ultimate in bizarre situations would have been if the car was Feldberg's rental... :eek:

rules are for players not spectators- spectators can move as they please unless restricted by staff. if a spectator were sitting in one spot beforehand the argument could be made that a player can't move them but the rules of play don't apply to the spectator's themselves- they are not playing.


Would that also extend to being allowed to move spectator's equipment? If so, then the car could be moved under that interpretation.



Interesting take on this. Let's say my cooler was sitting in that area just in front of the car all day. If someone's drive hit it, I would surely move it because it isn't an integral part of the course. So is there a difference between a cooler and a car?



Back at the Iowa Worlds there was the issue with a spotters chair on a certain hole at Pickard, that interfered with quite a number of throws but he "couldn't" move it.
:p

Chck,
I like the way your "fix" is worded. It would certainly help in cases such as this.

:D

Back at the Iowa Worlds there was the issue with a spotters chair on a certain hole at Pickard, that interfered with quite a number of throws but he "couldn't" move it.



Interesting. Did the TD confirm this interpretation or was it the spotter saying it?

Interestingly, if the cooler or car was a player's, another player can ask that it be moved based on Interference 803.07A even if it had been there for the whole day. Or can it be moved if it violates Casual Relief as discussed for this incident?

The ultimate in bizarre situations would have been if the car was Feldberg's rental... :eek:


if the spectator had moved the car on his own, we wouldn't be having this discussion :)

The first of two Geoff Bennett aces caught by the DGTV crew:
http://discgolftv.com/dgtv/452/wmv/newest?page=1&amp;channel_id=0

For some nice pics:
http://onthelevel.smugmug.com/

The idea that an object in an OB area is "out of play" is erroneous. There are many OB areas where the terrain in the OB area is part of the hole that makes the design challenging. The hole that comes to mind is 888 at Winthrop. Does anyone doubt that removing those small trees on the islands in the parking lot to the right of the tee would make the hole much easier for righty hyzers?

I'm wondering if we'll need to make a distinction between OB versus OP (Out-of-Play) areas in an future rules update that addresses scenarios like the Majestic.

I think that in this case the car was "OP", as a disc could not reasonably take a line of flight that passed through that area and back into play... but I agree that a distinction needs to be made.

how about this situation: during a final 9, a spectator (who may or may not have been a competitor during the previous round) decides to alter the course in some significant way, unfairly benefiting Player A. Is there a provision for handling this?

803.07 Interference returns the disc to the point of contact whether the deflection was intentional or not. So an airbrush deflection by a sympathetic player (accomplice) to a better location isn't possible. A player does get the option to rethrow if the deflection was intentional.

So, another interesting question might be what if a player throws and the shot is passing thru OB and likely to end up OB. A sympathetic player, accomplice, girlfriend standing in the OB area intentionally swats down the disc. Player gets to rethrow since the deflection was intentional and likely avoids a bad throw and OB penalty. Can other players in the group object to the rethrow and on what grounds? Hmmmm...

I think it should become a BunCAR. HA!!!!

This is an obvious attempt at humor.

or what if there is a sapling OB, but a spectator bends it backwards, making room for a line that wouldn't exist otherwise? Or perhaps "accidentally" moves a trash can or park bench. very interesting :)

hah!!

I think it should become a BunCAR.


Must be the CARolina version of a buncr... Hah!

maybe a new rule.

When a CAR comes into play during a tournament, you should remember. CAsual Relief. CAR.

Back at the Iowa Worlds there was the issue with a spotters chair on a certain hole at Pickard, that interfered with quite a number of throws but he "couldn't" move it.



Interesting. Did the TD confirm this interpretation or was it the spotter saying it?



I personally NEVER had the issue come into play in my groups OR when I was near. But heard from the spotter that he was told by the marshall that his chair had to stay put where it was the whole time. MANY people actually hit the chair, were under the chair or had the chair interfering with their lie in some way. It was "discussed" amoung the players, not sure IF or where it went from there.

:)

in my book, it's a convenience of a staff person's. Like a water bottle. If he moves it, it's still on the course, and while it's not the identical obstacle to all players, it's still on the course, so technically, it's an obstacle that may be in play for all groups.

On another note.... what about a photographer? They are often in front of the lie. Does the same silly concept pertain to a photographer? If a spotter is about to be hit by a disc, should he move or stand still? You seem to imply that a spotter is not allowed to move. For that matter, say a squirrel crosses the path of a disc, changing it's direction. Should we make that squirrel stay put? What if a hawk were to attack a squirrel DURING a round, in the middle of... say... hole 2 at Hampton Park in Charleston, should we, the disc golfers disturb such an occurrence, and what if the hawk finishes his meal before the round is over??

YES, this really happened.

One time, at Renaissance, the night before a tournament, someone drove a truck into the woods off the side of hole 13 (Copperhead Alley), during the night (we assume). During the round, discs landed in the back of the truck, and we had to play it where it lied. Seems fair, since it was abandoned there before the round started.

. On another note.... what about a photographer? They are often in front of the lie. Does the same silly concept pertain to a photographer? If a spotter is about to be hit by a disc, should he move or stand still?



I believe Barry hit a photographer on the '06 MSDGC DVD, stopping his disc from skipping towards the basket. He made the putt anyway. I'm not sure what the policy is for those situations.

Fortunately, our current round ratings system accounts for all the variances caused by squirrels, hawks, and whatever else might be scurrying along the fairway during a round :p

with the words that came out of Barry's mouth and his behavior here at the clash last month (when a camera and lots of spectators were present) I couldn't imagine what he would've done if they didnt move the vehicle... or maybe thats what 'persuaded' them to move it?

Chappy did not know whose disc went under the car. I happened to be standing by the car during the drives. I told the owner not to move it until the marshal ruled. I walked toward Chappy as he was moving up the fairway and told him a shot went under a car and asked if the car should be moved? He said yes and the owner moved it. I don't think Barry even knew at the time his disc was under the car since none of the players could see it from the tee. In fact, I believe the car was moved before Barry even walked up the fairway and he never saw his disc under the car.

The car should not have been moved. But the outcome of the tournament turned when on the next hole Dave had no realistic second or third shot at the basket. His second shot hit high in a tree and and rolled 50 feet downhill in the worst possible location - under a ski lift chair, behind a shack, behind more trees. :mad: He hit a very stout branch and it bounced right back at him - a 10-foot advance. :mad::mad:His fourth shot was brilliant and he parked it. It was a shame that it happened with only two holes left after such a great run.

If you read the Casual Relief rules (803.05) closely, it always refers to what "the player" may do to seek relief. It doesn't say the TD or marshal cannot provide relief if appropriate (see Fairness 803.01F). It's only the player that couldn't ask for the car to be moved in this situation according the specific wording of the rule. Since the rules do not say that the TD cannot provide relief, it's OK according to the Rules Committee mantra, "If the book doesn't say it's not allowed, it's probably allowed."

If you read the Casual Relief rules (803.05) closely, it always refers to what "the player" may do to seek relief. It doesn't say the TD or marshal cannot provide relief if appropriate (see Fairness 803.01F). It's only the player that couldn't ask for the car to be moved in this situation according the specific wording of the rule. Since the rules do not say that the TD cannot provide relief, it's OK according to the Rules Committee mantra, "If the book doesn't say it's not allowed, it's probably allowed."



It would be more like this, Chuck..
:p

Covering your A** for a blown call that it seems YOU initiated..

Car was there, car shouldnt be moved....

What part of "if any part of the obstacle is closer to the hole, it cant be moved" is mis-written in the rule book??
:confused:

Covering your A** for a blown call that it seems YOU initiated..


Had nothing to do with the call but did relay the message from Chappy to the driver to move it. I even told people I thought the rules didn't allow the car to be moved since I had my rulebook with me. But I agree with Chappy's ruling.

Now tell me why the TD is prevented from moving any object after reading the Casual Relief rule as I pointed out just above? It only says "the player" can't do it.

Covering your A** for a blown call that it seems YOU initiated..


Had nothing to do with the call but did relay the message from Chappy to the driver to move it. I even told people I thought the rules didn't allow the car to be moved since I had my rulebook with me. But I agree with Chappy's ruling.

Now tell me why the TD is prevented from moving any object after reading the Casual Relief rule as I pointed out just above? It only says "the player" can't do it.



Common sense!

Common sense!


Exactly. The TD is allowed to apply common sense in situations where (s)he is not prevented by the rules from doing something that's appropriate.

Keith might have been responding to your question...

Read your question, then his reply.

Now tell me why the TD is prevented from moving any object after reading the Casual Relief rule as I pointed out just above? It only says "the player" can't do it.

COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!

Sorry, it's common sense to me that a Marshal should be there to OBSERVE for infractions. From what's been described, it sounds like the Marshal was making rulings on lie before the players even had a chance to see the lie. I thought the rules were in the players hands FIRST, and the Marshals were there to make the final call IF, AND ONLY IF A CONSENSUS COULD NOT BE MADE. If the group agrees to a bad call, but it's a general consensus, then that's the ruling. In this case, I feel the group would have played the disc where it lies, but since the marshal decided to act of his own authority, and without conferring with the group, there was a subversion? of the original intent of the rules, where the players make the call.

I still think it's nothing more than a provisional instance. Play it both ways, and decide later. Going to extremes to justify a call that is at best borderline just doesn't seem to be within the intent of the rules.

Sorry, Common Sense says you play it where it lies, possibly call a provisional for an unplayable lie, or provisional for casual relief, but you don't move the vehicle. PERIOD. It's an obstacle, even obstacles that are blind from the teepad can't be moved on a golf course. What gives anyone the right to do it during safari golf? Seriously, if it was an issue, it should have been made known before the tee off.

Common sense is moving out of the way when a disc is coming at you or any object you're riding or carrying. Squirrels and people can usually jump out of the way. Cars, coolers and golf carts cannot. And yet, a person who was sitting there might be allowed to move but their chair cannot if it was there before the round. It's clear that TDs and marshals have the authority to apply common sense to special situations (safari layouts) where rules don't appear at first glance to allow something. Second glance though supports the marshal and TD moving items not originally intended in the layout. It might have made sense to wait until Barry saw the situation. However, the way it went down eliminated any hint of personal bias.

though it looks like any official can make any ruling due to 804.09D

D. Non-playing certified officials may
actively make rulings during any
tournament play that they witness. If an
official competes in a tournament, he or
she may not officiate for any ruling within
his or her own division. The official�s ruling
supersedes the ruling of the group, but an
appeal may be made to the tournament
director. The director may empower
non-certified officials to act as spotters for
a specific purpose. The ruling of such a
spotter supersedes the ruling of the group.

The ruling wasn't necessarily made to "get around" the casual relief rule because as you say, the player involved wasn't making a request to get relief because he didn't even know he might want it. It essentially was getting equipment out of the way to avoid interference under 803.07A but the marshal made the request. It's similar to moving the ropes for crowd control when a golfer sends a ball into the spectators and they rearrange the rope line before his next shot to provide room for the player. Common sense.

So what would happen if the owner just moved his car without talking with Chappy first?
By the way Chuck didn't tell me the "owner" to move anything. The second it went under my car someone looked at me and said should you move it and I immediately said ask Chappy he's the marshal. Weather you think it's a blown call or not you have to give it up to Chappy for making a call and sticking to it. With a bunch of spectators there just to watch, no one wants to see anyone crawl under a car and try to throw. Thats not how you take a sport to the "next level". Even if it's casual relief Barry isn't missing the shot, all he has to do is stand behind the truck and toss a putter 60' not very hard.
By the way I want Dave F. to know I would of gladly moved the truck for him also. It was an unfortunate lie that happened at a key time. I can't help but to think that Dave was still thinking about the whole situation at the time of his next drive and that is the part that sucks the most.

Even if it's casual relief Barry isn't missing the shot, all he has to do is stand behind the truck and toss a putter 60' not very hard.
.



...which is what it's clearly defined as in the casual relief rule where it mentions "motor vehicles" specifically.

Since the marshal removed the interference as allowed before the player got to the disc, no casual relief was required.

the situation is SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSED IN THE RULEBOOK!!!!! why are you insisting on arguing that it legitimate for a marshall to circumvent said rules on their own whim? my work is done here.

Yes, the situation is that the marshal elected to remove an interference item from play that should not have been there, just like a player's bag that got in the way or moving spectators to a different location. Casual relief was never involved because player never needed it.

Just because it shouldn't have been there doesn't magically make it an obstacle that "became a factor during the round as described by 803.05 B", as it has been pointed out above that it was definitely there at the start of the round. Therefore, since that is the ONLY situation that allows for an obstacle that is wholly or partially between the lie &amp; the target, definitely <u>bad call</u>.

I empathize with CK's willingness to let slide a marshall's making up his own set of rules on the fly (as he is very fond of doing so himself) but for the subset of PDGA golfers who actually use the rulebook to make calls, this one was a travesty.

wait...

we have a book of rules? :confused:

Even if it's casual relief Barry isn't missing the shot, all he has to do is stand behind the truck and toss a putter 60' not very hard.
By the way I want Dave F. to know I would of gladly moved the truck for him also. It was an unfortunate lie that happened at a key time. I can't help but to think that Dave was still thinking about the whole situation at the time of his next drive and that is the part that sucks the most.



I know it seems like the outcome might've been the same you never know. Barry could've easily blown up verbally/visually (as has been witnessed recently) and this could've affected his remaining shots just as it might've Feldberg.

as far as you moving the vehicle or not... i dont think anyone is faulting you... its more on the event staff that people are questioning.

Again, casual relief rule is not relevant here. Barry never needed nor asked for relief because the vehicle had been moved per request of the marshal before Barry got to his disc. Perhaps you can point to the exact wording in the rulebook where a marshal or TD is not allowed to move an obstacle to prevent Interference? Not only that, the car owner was a player in the same division whose bag was likely in the car and its movement is specifically allowed under Interference. ;)

Perhaps you can point to the exact wording in the rulebook where a marshal or TD is not allowed to move an obstacle to prevent Interference?


Sure. 803.05c:
"Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole."
Doesn't say a TD or marshall may choose to move one. It says they MAY NOT BE MOVED.

Perhaps you can point to the exact wording in the rulebook where a marshal or TD <u>is</u> allowed to move an obstacle to prevent Interference after a throw comes to rest with the obstacle between its lie &amp; the hole?

Perhaps you can point to the exact wording in the rulebook where a marshal or TD is allowed to move an obstacle to prevent Interference after a throw comes to rest with the obstacle between its lie &amp; the hole?



Precedent has been supported by the Rules Committee that if a choice is not specifically disallowed then it's allowed (assuming it's a legal act allowed in the community at large). Second, TDs/marshals may make decisions based on fairness per 803.01F. Do you disagree that the TD can make calls based on fairness? In this case, no rule was made up that conflicted (804.01D) with the existing rule for Interference. Casual relief rule is not relevant because no relief was was asked for nor granted. Never got to that point. Argue the Interference call if you wish but it's pretty clear that equipment can be moved and it doesn't exclude items owned by another player that happened to be there before the round nor does it exclude moving items that are between the lie and the basket.

I think this is just another case of the rulebook contradicting itself. One rule says that obstacles cannot be moved but another says that a player can take relief from motor vehicles... *especially* in these cases, we have to rely on officials and marshals to make the best judgment call possible at the time.

803.05D: In situations where it is unclear if an object may be moved or other relief obtained, it shall be determined by a majority of the group or an official.

I think not involving the players in the decision was mistake #1.

Badges? We don't need no stinkin' Badges!

803.05D: In situations where it is unclear if an object may be moved or other relief obtained, it shall be determined by a majority of the group or an official.


Not relevant. No relief situation ever existed because the interference was removed before there was a need. The relief rule was never borught into question.

Who's gonna give in? The entire message board vs. 1 or 2.

my point, Chuck, was just that the rulebook has at least this example of a "defer to the official" type of statement. I think Chap did the best he could with what he had.

There's no question that the prerogatives of the marshal and TD need to be better clarified in this area because it will happen again as we get more spectator related structures and activities mixed with safari layouts. The wording I suggested way back in this thread is up for consideration in the 2009 tour guides. The competition rules are gradually being separated from the core rules of the game. This incident was a competition situation not a rules situation.

If it was a casual or league situation, the car would have stayed per the rules unless a player in the group had seen the car move there during the round. But for sanctioned play, we have TDs and officials who try to referee the event as fairly as possible and have the course play as intended. So they get the ultimate calls if it's still fair.

Who's gonna give in? The entire message board vs. 1 or 2.



:D