It was officially legal then. It's only been since the Dec 1st revised Q&A that the legality has been questioned.

I just watched Barry Shultz kneel on a towel on the Lead Group Live DVD from 2006.

Thought I'd share..




Yeah he mentioned that when we moved him a couple weeks ago. He said something that now you can't put a towel behind the mini but you can on your back leg/knee.

It is still legal until a new rule book is out in my opinion.

It is still legal until a new rule book is out in my opinion.


Sad show of ethics :(

It is still legal until a new rule book is out in my opinion.


Sad show of ethics :(



Waste of time by the rules committee....chew on those ETHICS /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

It is still legal until a new rule book is out in my opinion.


Sad show of ethics :(



A sad show of ethics? :confused:

What about the players who do not own a computer?
What about players who own a computer, but choose wisely to not spend their time on the DISCussion board?
What about the players who are unaware of the Rules Q&A page on pdga.com?
How about the fact that the Rules Q&A page does not claim to be a supplemental addition to the official rule book?
How about the fact that the official rule book makes no mention of the the Rules Q&A page on pdga.com?
How about the fact that nowhere in the PDGA membership/renewal package does any piece of documentation mandate players to review the Q&A section of pdga.com?

The way the Artificial Devices rule is currently written, it is perfectly legal to use a towel as an artificial device to "reduce or control abrasion to the skin".

<font color="blue"> 802.04 Artificial Devices

A. During a round, a player shall not use any artificial device that may assist in making a throw, except those devices that reduce or control abrasion to the skin (such as gloves, tape, bandages, gauze, etc.) and medical items (such as knee and ankle braces, etc.). Items used to prevent slipping on the teeing surface are also allowed. A player is specifically prohibited from using any artificial device that changes the position of the disc in the player�s hand or artificially lengthens any of the player�s throwing levers (fingers, wrist, arm, shoulder, etc.). The use of devices which assist in determining distances over 10 meters, such as range finders and GPS devices are prohibited. Measuring devices such as a tape measure may be carried and used to determine distances 10 meters and less for the purpose of rules enforcement.

B. A player shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if, during any portion of a round, he or she is observed by two players or an official to be using or carrying an artificial device that is determined by the director to violate section 802.04 A. A player who uses an artificial device after it has been determined by the director to be in violation of 802.04 A has also violated 804.05 A (3) and shall be penalized accordingly.

</font> It is important to note that rule 802.04 does not exclude a towel being used as an artificial device to protect one's skin and nowhere in the verbiage does the rule limit which area of the skin is allowed protection. In addition, rule 802.04 does not stipulate how an Artificial Device is to be used in order to "reduce or control abrasion" nor does the rule state that an Artificial Device must be used for a specified period of time.
Maybe we should ask for an interpretation of this rule from this person (http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/amputeesilouette.jpg) ......or this person (http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/amputeesoldier.jpg) ......or this person? (http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/amputeejessicalong.jpg)

It is still legal until a new rule book is out in my opinion.


Sad show of ethics :(



Waste of time by the rules committee....chew on those ETHICS /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Better yet bite me.

How about a regulation knee pad of uniform thickness that can be made entirely out of the fluff of this thread?

How about a regulation knee pad of uniform thickness that can be made entirely out of the fluff of this thread?



Why would I want to kneel on a pad 20+ feet high? Sort of destroys the point. :D

BTW, right-frickin-on Gotcha!!! Over here in J-town (Joliet, IL) almost nobody is on-line or looking at this board. At the last doubles league NOBODY had any clue what I was talking about in regards to this interpretation of the rules. Until this is published so that ALL PDGA members can have access to it, as an official, I would never enforce it.
If the RC can't make their printed words match their thoughts, re-write the bloody rules!

Note: The Q&amp;A is the RC interpretation of what the actual rules as currently written mean for those who have difficulty figuring that out. It is not a new rule.

God help us all if this sport becomes so uptight that people start feeling the need to start calling fouls etc for resting a knee on a towel to keep out of the mud.

Seriously... how much of advantage would that give anyone?

Note: The Q&amp;A is the RC interpretation of what the actual rules as currently written mean for those who have difficulty figuring that out. It is not a new rule.



Note: The Building a Lie Q&amp;A does not address the legality of kneeling on a towel as an artificial device. Evidently, some folks have difficulty figuring that out. Here's the original question:

<font color="blue"> Rule Question: Building a Lie
Question

A player�s shot lands in a creek that has been declared casual. Can she place a rock or a broken limb behind her mark, in order to keep her feet dry? </font>

The question submitted to the Rules Committee is quite clear. The person who submitted the question was asking if players can build a lie to <u>stand</u> upon in a casual creek. And here's the first statement in the RC's response:

<font color="blue"> Important Note: Previously we had ruled that this was permitted.This opinion reverses that ruling. </font>

Previously, the RC permitted players to build their lie with rocks and broken limbs to stand upon in casual creeks. This Q&amp;A opinion, however, "reverses that ruling". In other words, players cannot place objects behind their markers to build their lie in order to keep their feet from getting wet or muddy.

Here's the kicker about the Q&amp;A...... :D......the RC specifically states players can build a stance under the artificial devices rule. In other words, players are allowed to use artificial devices to "build their stance" in effort to protect their skin from abrasion. Here's the RC's conclusion:

<font color="blue"> Conclusion: You take a stance in the mud or casual water just as you would in the fairway. One should never expect to be able to move obstacles, except as narrowly defined under �Obstacles and Relief�. One can�t �build a stance� except as allowed under 802.04 (Artificial Devices) A.

One could still place a small pad or a towel under any body part that is not the supporting point meeting the requirement of 803.04A (1). </font>

I know some folks only focus on the last sentence of the RC's conclusion, however, many readers take that statement out of context. Think about it..... the RC answered a question specific to placing a rock or broken limb behind the lie to stand upon. The RC was not answering a question about kneeling on a towel.....or whether a towel should be excluded as an artificial device.....or whether an artificial device must be worn or simply used as the rule reads......or whether only a certain area of the skin is allowed protection under the 802.04 Artificial Devices rule, etc.

Looks like Jessica Long amputee doesn't have a problem getting her Knees dirty. I see no towels under her knees. (smiley face)
My statement about ethics if for the person who knows the rules including the proper interpretation of them, and still chooses to ignore them. i.e certain people who are posting on this thread.
Gaff

My statement about ethics if for the person who knows the rules including the proper interpretation of them, and still chooses to ignore them. i.e certain people who are posting on this thread.
Gaff



Do you really think there is an advantage gained by putting from a towel? I have thrown from my knee from the tee and gotten a birdie. Ethics? <font color="blue">[personal attack removed] </font>

My statement about ethics if for the person who knows the rules including the proper interpretation of them, and still chooses to ignore them. i.e certain people who are posting on this thread.



I agree with Gaff. If you know it is illegal to use a towel behind your mini, yet you choose to anyway, you are cheating. It is confounding that someone could be at peace with this action. This disregard for the rules is not the same as social dissent against injustice. You are not Rosa Parks or Nelson Mandella fighting against laws that are morally questionable. This is disc golf.

I think one does gain an advantage by using a towel and I will continue to do it whenever I see fit as the "ban" against this is so ambiguous as to be nonsense IMO.

<font color="blue">[personal attack removed] </font>

[/QUOTE]

Does anyone read the comic "Get Fuzzy"? Ampersand pound sign moderators!!!

I sent the RC a question, asking if i can kneel on a towel to protect my knee... that was over 2 weeks ago and still no answer so it must not be a rule or they would respond... The only one Ive noticed sayin its illegal is Chuck and he seems a little confused most of the time :confused: :confused: The Q&amp;A does not call it illegal...
I will consider it illegal when the RC responds to my email telling me it is, not when sum knucklehead inteprets it som skewed way just to make a pointless thread full of BS.

<font color="blue">[personal attack removed] </font>



Does anyone read the comic "Get Fuzzy"? Ampersand pound sign moderators!!!

[/QUOTE]

Get Fuzzy! I love those rare occasions when Satchel gets his back from Bucky.

My statement about ethics if for the person who knows the rules including the proper interpretation of them, and still chooses to ignore them. i.e certain people who are posting on this thread.
Gaff



Do you really think there is an advantage gained by putting from a towel? I have thrown from my knee from the tee and gotten a birdie. Ethics? <font color="blue">[personal attack removed] </font>



Yes I do! Logic would tell us if that if there was no advantage, we wouldn't have a picture of Dave F. with a towel folded over multiple times to cushion his knee. I'm not telling you it's a huge advantage but if it saves you a stroke per tournament and you win by one stroke...

I'm not confused, the rules communication process and clarity in wording is. If "not building a lie" is a concept we should believe in, then using a towel is not in the spirit of that concept despite interpreting the Artificial Device rule to get around the "not building a lie" concept. So, for now, I believe the RC is upholding the "not building a lie" concept. I would like them to allow the simple towel as an exception but will not use one that way until that option is explicitly allowed.

I think the real sticking point is that the RC says one thing in the Q&amp;A, but at a recent NT event, the Executive Director waived the rule because it is not in the rule book.

I think that there is enough ambiguity between "building a lie" and "preventing abrasion" to warrent a stay on enforcement until the RC comes to some sort of conclusion.

I think the real sticking point is that the RC says one thing in the Q&amp;A, but at a recent NT event, the Executive Director waived the rule because it is not in the rule book.

I think that there is enough ambiguity between "building a lie" and "preventing abrasion" to warrant a stay on enforcement until the RC comes to some sort of conclusion.



Clear thinking about a unclear rule. Kneeling on a towel has been legal and now without specifically addressing the issue in the rule book and using the existing rules when kneeling on a towel was legal, it is now illegal?!

still the Q&amp;A and rules are not clear enough to start calling it a rule giving the Prevention of Abraison clause.
if there wasn't the exceptions allowed for protection it would be a no brainer.
when in doubt throw it out

Kneeling on a towel was never declared legal (except on the tee). It just wasn't thought of as illegal. I'll give a for instance. We have a rule 803.05A that specifically states a player must take a stance that results in the least movement of any obstacles in the area of the stance. I guarantee that everyone has taken that to mean allowing the least movement when I'm standing up. There are many times when lying on the ground would disturb the bush you were backing into less than when standing, and yet allowing a player to stand in a way that seems to move the bush less has been allowed despite the wording in the rule.

I think placing a towel in the past has been more like bending the bush is currently and the fact that you could use a towel on the tee has lead people to believe that was OK. Now, the issue has come to the forefront so that the wording can finally match what is allowed in the field.

I think the real sticking point is that the RC says one thing in the Q&amp;A, but at a recent NT event, the Executive Director waived the rule because it is not in the rule book.



The ruling was made by an official Marshal of the event. That the Marshal also happens to be executive director of the PDGA has absolutely no bearing. Zero. The E.D. has gone on record previously in this thread as stating that he has no authority as the E.D. to make rules decisions or give variances and has absolutely no intentions or wishes to do so.

I'd like to see the Rules Committee say somthing in this thread, or respond to my email before I'd call it a rule that can be eforced. Until then its an urban legend...

Kneeling on a towel was never declared legal (except on the tee). It just wasn't thought of as illegal. I'll give a for instance. We have a rule 803.05A that specifically states a player must take a stance that results in the least movement of any obstacles in the area of the stance. I guarantee that everyone has taken that to mean allowing the least movement when I'm standing up. There are many times when lying on the ground would disturb the bush you were backing into less than when standing, and yet allowing a player to stand in a way that seems to move the bush less has been allowed despite the wording in the rule.

I think placing a towel in the past has been more like bending the bush is currently and the fact that you could use a towel on the tee has lead people to believe that was OK. Now, the issue has come to the forefront so that the wording can finally match what is allowed in the field.



Bending the bush is breaking the rules. Kneeling on a towel is bending your knee - not bending the rule.

I think the real sticking point is that the RC says one thing in the Q&amp;A, but at a recent NT event, the Executive Director waived the rule because it is not in the rule book.



The ruling was made by an official Marshal of the event. That the Marshal also happens to be executive director of the PDGA has absolutely no bearing. Zero. The E.D. has gone on record previously in this thread as stating that he has no authority as the E.D. to make rules decisions or give variances and has absolutely no intentions or wishes to do so.



Sorry I didn't make the distinction. The point is that someone in authority waived the enforcement of not using a towel at the NT event.

I say that this "rule" can't be enforced if it is not enforced at a NT event. We are all waiting on the RC to clarify the terrible towel situation.

Wow, 53 pages and counting! If I towel on my head do I have to remove it if I putt upside down? What about a bandana? Hair spray? Ok, I'm not funny...

Seriously though, I have asked 4 officials and none of them would penalize someone for kneeling on a towel behind their mark. Majority rules!!! :cool:

If we haven't broke a record already we can do it!!! I want 100 pages on this thread :mad:,

53 pages because some folks have posted the same thing 30 to 40 times hoping to convince others by the sheer volume of their view points

Sounds like you should increase your "threads per page" in your profile. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I only show 18 pages.... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

:D

Building a lie is fine as long as it's not on line of play within 30cm of the rear edge of the marker disc per the last sentence of the Q&amp;A.

so, put your foot behind the mini and your knee somewhere comfortable with the RC's blessing.

Building a lie is fine as long as it's not on line of play within 30cm of the rear edge of the marker disc per the last sentence of the Q&amp;A.

so, put your foot behind the mini and your knee somewhere comfortable with the RC's blessing.



So now every golfer has to learn the rule book and the RC's blessings. This gives a new meaning to "cult sport." :eek:

I have a question that may or may not have been presented. If the "pro-towel" people are saying the towel is to prevent abrasions to the knee, does this mean if I am wearing shorts I can kneel on a towel, but I cannot kneel on a towel if I am wearing pants?

_________________________________________________
does this mean if I am wearing shorts I can kneel on a towel, but I cannot kneel on a towel if I am wearing pants?

__________________________________________________


I am sure you can find an ambiguous answer to that at least 20 times if you carefully study this thread.

Can I use a towel to kneel down before the disc Gods?

_______________________________________________
Sounds like you should increase your "threads per page" in your profile.

I only show 18 pages....
________________________________________

What???? We will never get to my 100 page goal!!! Bring your laptop to Steady Ed's or Willits, Magilla. I have to see for myself. :mad::cool::) :( :o:D:confused: :eek: :D ;) :p

6 pages for me, I kid you not..... :cool::D

I refuse to count the number of posts. I don't have that much time. This sucks.

539 posts. (Look at the Replies field and add one for the original post.)

Well, now 540, counting this one. :)

I have a question that may or may not have been presented. If the "pro-towel" people are saying the towel is to prevent abrasions to the knee, does this mean if I am wearing shorts I can kneel on a towel, but I cannot kneel on a towel if I am wearing pants?


Dude, if you're wearing pants and throwing right handed you can use a towel under your left knee, unless you're wearing a visor then it's right knee. ;)

so if i am throwing left handed do i put the towel on my head and the visor under my right knee

________________________________________________
539 posts. (Look at the Replies field and add one for the original post.)
_____________________________________________

Sweet! You are more smarter than me and learned yourself good in school. The goal should be 1000 posts!

keep this up and we just might get a federal court hearing just like the steroids in baseball

to think i thought the thread about stand and deliver was rediculous

But you must realize the stand and deliver discussion was an offshoot of this thread. :D

So now it's time for the RC to say it. APRIL FOOLS!!!!! :D

So now it's time for the RC to say it. APRIL FOOLS!!!!! :D



Now ^^^^^^^ THAT'S Funny!!!!

If we haven't broke a record already we can do it!!! I want 100 pages on this thread :mad:,


They're trying to circumvent your goal over on the "Kneeling and Throwing" thread! :eek:

Thanks for the re-focus. The new goal is 1000 posts. You can have more threads per page than what I have. I will be satisfied if they both combine to make that many!!! :D ;) /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif :cool::) :( :o:D:confused: :eek:

The RC has ruled towels legal. Check out the new Q&amp;A...

Rule Question: Kneeling on a towel
Question
A player�s shot lands in a spot that has very hard, rocky ground. Can she place a towel or pad down in order to prevent abrasions to her body (or to keep her knee/clothes clean and/or dry)?

Important Note: Previously we had ruled that this was not permitted. This opinion reverses that ruling.

Response
Applicable Rules:


802.04 Artificial Devices
803.05 (Obstacles and Relief) C
803.04 (Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off) A.1

802.04 allows the use of items that reduce or control abrasion. Towels or pads may fulfill this purpose. Assuming that the unsafe items on the playing surface are not subject to removal or relief under PDGA rule 803.05.C (which covers relief from obstacles to one's stance), she is allowed to place a towel or small pad under any body part, with the exception of her feet (which should already be covered by protective devices such as shoes).

Note: She may move items under 803.05 C and also use a towel or small pad under her knee.

A "small pad" is defined as being 1 centimeter or less in thickness, when compressed.

Conclusion: One may use a towel or small pad (with a maximum compressed thickness of 1 centimeter) in order to prevent harm/abrasions to the body during competitive play. A towel or pad may be used under one's foot only on the tee box.

The PDGA Rules Committee

Carlton Howard, Chair
John Chapman
Conrad Damon
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
Jim Garnett
Rick Voakes

Hey your pad is 2cm thick I'm going to stroke you.......... :D

So, is a disc considered a pad, or will it now be illegal if I mark a disc, and flip one upside down, place it behind the mini and use it to control abration under my knee? :p

It is less than one centimeter thick.

According to the tech specs, all discs have a "height" (thickness) more than 1cm. However, the new Q&amp;A uses the words "compressed thickness" so discs are probably OK. Flip the disc upside down and it looks even more legal. I think this would allow players to leave their disc on the ground, place their mini marker in front of it and place their knee on the disc which was suggested on another thread.

Oddly enough, this seems to make worn kneepads illegal since most are thicker than 1cm.

Oddly enough, this seems to make worn kneepads illegal since most are thicker than 1cm.



It shouldn't matter how thick kneepads are....they are worn on the body, therefore, are considered clothing. Also....rule 802.04(A) allows "devices that reduce or control abrasion to the skin (such as gloves, tape, bandages, gauze, etc.)" Nothing is said that the skin that is protected has to be on the hands.

They always have been.

Oddly enough, this seems to make worn kneepads illegal since most are thicker than 1cm.



But it also says "Compressed thickness"...

Under what pressure??.. :p

Id say that your knee pad would be legal......

:D

I chuckle every time I use a towel when I kneel for a putt thinking about this thread......now knee pads would have to be checked before play for compression....

I will not let this thread die.

I chuckle every time I use a towel when I kneel for a putt thinking about this thread..


:D
good luck on the 1000 reply thing

I think for the sake of consistency it should still be permissible to place a rock in casual water to prevent wet feet. Provided of course that the compressed thickness of the rock extends no more than 1 cm above the surface of the water.
http://www.csd.abdn.ac.uk/teaching/web/graphics/dividers/ruler.gif

how about stilts? they're just shoes, right? is there a maximum compressed thickness for shoes we wear?

imagine the go go gadget possibilities. we need another rule.

would the bamboo on 7 at usdgc be obsolete?

a revolution in jump putting...
http://environmental-science-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/jumping-stilts-9-25-2006-ii.jpg

disc golf pros who install drywall on the side would have an immediate advantage...
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~cnw52/carrie_stilts.jpg

Yeah, and I guess anti-gravity suits and hovercraft would be legal too. ;)

would "clowning around" be a courtesy violation?

http://www.pdxentertainment.com/05/Images/Pictures/Enlarged/72dpi3stilts.jpg

Yeah, and I guess anti-gravity suits and hovercraft would be legal too. ;)



under what rule, exactly? :confused:

Same rule as yours...