Is it against the rules to purchase a disc during the middle of a PDGA round? I will be officiating an A tier tourney in April and I would like to suggest that the Concessions folks have some floaters on sale during the round, but I will only make the suggestion if it is legal to purchase a new disc during your round. I have scoured the rule book and can't find anything that tells me one way or the other. Hope to hear a definitive answer soon.

No rule prohibiting it, so it is OK. Just make sure transaction can be quick & discreet enough to avoid a "slow play" or courtesy violation.

In this tournament there will be concessions carts travelling the course, so I think the transaction would be the same as buying a bottled water or candy bar. I would like to have a few more people pipe in so I feel confident making this suggestion to our TD. Thank you for the quick response.

I don't see many people doing that. It would just seem odd to me to do something like that.

No problem. The main thing to remember is that players need to mark the purchased disc before using it in competition. So, concessionaire should have marker available in case player doesn't. I remember having to sprint to the sales tent to purchase another disc or two after throwing three in the water at Cliff Stephens during the Florida Triple Crown in the late 90s. Other players may also loan players discs during the round and players may stop at their vehicle or have an associate get or swap discs as needed.

Thank you for the clarification, I feel much more confident making the suggestion now. Whether we actually do this or not will be someone elses decision.

What Chuck said. Only rules I can think of that would come into play would be 801.03 Excessive Time (during the play of a hole) and 804.02 Beginning Play (which has been applied to the beginning of a hole, as well as a round).

Or the future rule where Gateway Dave would be weighing in everyone's discs before they could use them... :eek:

Or the future rule where Gateway Dave would be weighing in everyone's discs before they could use them... :eek:



When I buy a pressure gauge, I can spend a little extra and get a gauge that comes with a calibration certificate. Maybe that's a possibility?

I had a guy tell me I was not allowed to grab a disc out of my car in the middle of a round. I looked for a ruling in the PDGA rule book and found nothing prohibiting me from doing so. He continued to disagree so I told him to go to he11 and I used it anyway.

If I was wrong I should probably apologize to the gentleman.

It's up to the player calling the rule to prove it with their rule book and show you what the penalty is if you use that disc from the car. They risk getting a courtesy violation from you for "working" you with a false call if it gets out of hand more than them just stating the rule.

Until I just went and searched, I would have sworn that there was a rule stating that you couldn't use a disc that didn't start the round in your immediate possession. Did this exist in the past? Am I just spending too much time near the smokers?

Sounds like another one for the "folklore rules that aren't rules" thread. One game where losing a disc will result in a DNF is discathon where each player carries two discs. If they lose one in a tree or water while running the course, they are done. However, a player is allowed to carry one spare disc at the start of the run just in case.

My guess is its a crossover from the ball-golf realm...

You can add or swap out golf clubs during play as long as it does not take too much time.

I for one am very glad to hear that such a rule does not exist though. I have no financial interest in this matter. However, this is a course with a great number of lakes and I do not want to see the ams going home with a bad taste simply because of lost discs. On a tangent... I've found out the Double D and the Odyssey's float. Does anyone have any other stable to overstable driver suggestions for floaters?

Thanks again for all the input... I asked the question because one of the folks on my card at a tourney last year was running low on Beasts and I offered him one of mine to play with. He said it was illegal to play out of my bag. I went home and could not find anything in the rule book on this. A person is already handicapped enough having to throw a disc they may not know well...

You can add or swap out golf clubs during play as long as it does not take too much time.



You must go with the clubs that you started out with in traditional golf. (USGA Rule 4-4a.) However, if you started with fewer than 14 clubs, you may add clubs during the round as long as you don't have more than 14 in total.

If you damage a club during the course of normal play (i.e., broke the shaft while making a shot), you may replace the club. If you broke a 4-iron, you can replace it with any conforming club....it does not have to be a 4-iron. (USGA Rule 4-3a)

If you damage a club in a way that was NOT in the course of normal play, you may NOT swap it out with a conforming club. An example of this would be missing a putt, and breaking the shaft of the putter over your knee in anger. (USGA Rule 4-3b)

Chap

Until I just went and searched, I would have sworn that there was a rule stating that you couldn't use a disc that didn't start the round in your immediate possession. Did this exist in the past? Am I just spending too much time near the smokers?



Nope, it's simply a "Non-rules" rule that people swear exists in disc golf because of a similar rule in ball golf, as Chappy presented.

I would agree with Chuck that a person calling phantom rules at a PDGA-sanctioned tournament should risk getting a courtesy violation from you for "working" you with a false call if it gets out of hand.

What if this is the TD calling this rule? It happened to me 2 1/2 years ago and I wasn't keen on the rule at that time, but know I know better.

Have TD point out the rule in the book.

Have TD TRY TO point out the rule in the book.



and then laugh and laugh at them for years afterwards...

The burden of proof is on the person to point out the rules violation in the rulebook. If a person is unable or unwilling to point out a supposed rules violation in the rulebook, then there is no rules violation.

The burden of proof is on the person to point out the rules violation in the rulebook. If a person is unable or unwilling to point out a supposed rules violation in the rulebook, then there is no rules violation.



Correct, However, if the person calling the alleged rule was the TD this will require politics as well as knowledge of the rules. Sometimes you can be right and it still doesn't matter. With a TD you need to use discretion without caving in unless you are willing to have a lousy day or not play at all. If the TD called this on you I would suggest showing him/her that its not in the book, but eventually giving up the claim on the day of the tournament and then you can either politely or rudely show them they are wrong after the tournament is over. During the tournament it has to be the former.

I wish all players would treat their TDs with that kind of respect... *sigh*. It seems that (especially in the younger crowd), the first reaction is one of indignation and entitlement. And not just when it comes to rules violations (or the contest of non-violations). That's a different discussion though.

i'm glad this was brought up. otherwise I would have continued thinking that this was a valid rule. Do I need to put an asterisk on my officials card? :D

Last year in the third round of the River Cities Rumble in the Quad Cities I lost many discs in various places. During the third and final round at West Lake I was on a card with Tanner Duncan and Timmy Gill. About half way through the round we had a long walk from I believe hole 20 to 21. The walk between holes took us right past the tourney headquarters where the vendors were set up. I asked Timmy and Tanner if I could go buy a couples of discs and they said "No Problem".
I went and bought a new Roadrunner and a new Firebird and finished the round. I didn't know at the time either if it was legal or not, but I figured Timmy more than likely knew.

So, yeah, you can do it.....coming from someone who has.

i used the knowledge of this un-rule as well... I was playing in a tourney where the TD announced if you're disc was wet you weren't allowed to retrieve it (even if you thought you could well within 30 seconds)... that being said... I dont carry many discs and proceeded to throw my only putter in the drink on an upshot. I panicked and was able to borrow an extra putter from a buddy on the adjoining fairway (without running into speed of play issues) and finish the round. I even announced to the group that I would be throwing a disc w/ X's name on it (not sure if I had to but just to be safe)

thing that sucks is even though I knew I was 'good' pretty much everyone on my card said they didnt think it was legal but would 'let me' throw it anyway... it actually worked me to the point where after only putting with it once I put it away and used a Buzzz to putt with since I could hear chatter in the background constantly about if it was legal or not and what should/could be done.

Another time i've run into this was something Chuck mentioned in another thread where you are allowed to play from the previous lie if you go OB (ie... close putt misses and sails OB)... everyone made me throw a provisional and had to work with the TD and then a non-playing official for 30 minutes to finally get a 'well we'll allow it' kind of mentality.

A very good way to reduce that kind of mentality is to carry a current rule book with you at all times while playing. And it helps to have read it a time or two. If your playing partners still don't want to allow what you know is correct, make them show you the rule against it.

I wish all players would treat their TDs with that kind of respect... *sigh*. It seems that (especially in the younger crowd), the first reaction is one of indignation and entitlement. And not just when it comes to rules violations (or the contest of non-violations). That's a different discussion though.

i'm glad this was brought up. otherwise I would have continued thinking that this was a valid rule. Do I need to put an asterisk on my officials card? :D



I say we destroy your card, pull the PDGA patch from your bag, bend your favorite driver in half and turn our backs on you!

What do you do when your branded? And you know you're a man........

psht. you are probably the one who told me it was a rule in the first place ;) :D

No problem. The main thing to remember is that players need to mark the purchased disc before using it in competition. So, concessionaire should have marker available in case player doesn't. I remember having to sprint to the sales tent to purchase another disc or two after throwing three in the water at Cliff Stephens during the Florida Triple Crown in the late 90s. Other players may also loan players discs during the round and players may stop at their vehicle or have an associate get or swap discs as needed.



This rule should be changed. Players should only be allowed to play with discs that are in their bag at the start of a round.

Any good reasons for this statement?

it sure is difficult to hizer a disc that is in the bag.

i think its hard to "hizer" any disc

I thought I had a pretty valid argument for not making it a rule (saving am players money on lost discs by allowing them to get floaters if they need to.) I don't see any reason for not allowing it other than speed of play, but I'm pretty sure the rules already have that covered rather nicely.

Any good reasons for this statement?



Matches with the rules of ball golf. No new clubs can be added. It should be OK to get lost discs within the Spped of Play rule.

How many ball golfers ever threw 6 clubs in a lake on one hole?

New clubs can be added if they are damaged during the normal course of play. And we are not ball golf...

based on the idea that pretty much anything during a tourney is allowed as long as its not mentioned in the rule book and it doesnt effect the speed of play... (assuming thats a correct premise)

what are some creative things people can think of (have fun with this btw)
-bum a disc off a buddy
-make a porta potty run
-stop in the convenience mart and pickup some smokes/gum/gatorade/food
-check out on your phone (with internet) how the others have finished so far that day (really would only matter @ usdgc)
-go talk to your buddy on the other fairway

Any good reasons for this statement?



Matches with the rules of ball golf. No new clubs can be added. It should be OK to get lost discs within the Spped of Play rule.



I see. No good reasons. Thanks.

Any good reasons for this statement?



Matches with the rules of ball golf. No new clubs can be added. It should be OK to get lost discs within the Spped of Play rule.



Rule 4.4 A The player must not start a stipulated round with more than
14 clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that
round, except that if he started with fewer than 14 clubs,
he may add any number, provided his total number does
not exceed 14.

So there is no rule barring you from getting your putter that you left in your trunk after you tee off if you don't unduly delay play.

The rule does go on to say that you can't borrow another player's clubs.

But why should we be like golf for this rule? Do we gain anything?

I think the delaying play restriction is good enough...

Should we also ban kneeling on your towel or a disc ala Craig Stadler at Torrey Pines? Do we gain anything by forcing players to get their knees dirty?

How many ball golfers ever threw 6 clubs in a lake on one hole?



This is NOT ball golf. We can't play by ALL their rules. At some point we must break the relationship to ball golf. I can understand following their formats and scoring methods but we don't use the same equipment. I have put half of my bag in the water on the same hole. That doesn't happen in ball golf!

That was my point, also. Disc golfers lose discs---sometimes, lots of them. Ball golfers hardly ever lose clubs. (Play the Charleston Classic on a windy weekend and watch the pond level rise from the accummulated plastic!)

We should look to ball golf to see what rules and features we can adopt to make disc golf better.....and reject the rest.

How many ball golfers ever threw 6 clubs in a lake on one hole?



This is NOT ball golf. We can't play by ALL their rules. At some point we must break the relationship to ball golf. I can understand following their formats and scoring methods but we don't use the same equipment. I have put half of my bag in the water on the same hole. That doesn't happen in ball golf!



Agreed that this is not ball golf, but since our game is patterned after it, the relationship is impossible to break. Also agreed that not every ball golf rule can be applied to disc golf, but there are numerous parallels.

I wouldn't have told you that, I know the rules :p well sort of.... anyway, I didn't really see what you wrote, you have been branded.


psht. you are probably the one who told me it was a rule in the first place ;) :D

It just seems reasonable that if you don't carry extra discs with you and you throw one in the drink you can't add to your bag until after the round is complete. Just adds to the difficulty and becomes a decision to the player playing on a tough course where discs can be lost. Should I carry more discs, which is more weight, and could hurt my performance but could hepl if I put one in the drink? It just adds another layer of complexity. Just personal opinion.

It just seems reasonable that if you don't carry extra discs with you and you throw one in the drink you can't add to your bag until after the round is complete. Just adds to the difficulty and becomes a decision to the player playing on a tough course where discs can be lost. Should I carry more discs, which is more weight, and could hurt my performance but could hepl if I put one in the drink? It just adds another layer of complexity. Just personal opinion.



this is the exact reason why i dont carry that many discs... i dont have to... as long as I can figure out how to get to my car or tourn central or wherever to replenish my supply on the freak chance I should need to I'd rather have to do that once every 10 rounds than carry extra discs each of those rounds.

I agree that it would seem reasonable that you couldn't add more discs but as long as its in the rules i'll use it.

if we did start testing discs or having limits on # you could carry I would think this rule would have to be abolished or seriously looked at though considering you could lose a couple discs and have a buddy (who isnt playing) meet you on the next hole to give you some other discs.

If a good number of the rules are not called by players why do people really want to add more rules?

If a good number of the rules are not called by players why do people really want to add more rules?



question/comment of the day right there!

Any good reasons for this statement?



Matches with the rules of ball golf. No new clubs can be added. It should be OK to get lost discs within the Spped of Play rule.



Rule 4.4 A The player must not start a stipulated round with more than
14 clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that
round, except that if he started with fewer than 14 clubs,
he may add any number, provided his total number does
not exceed 14.

So there is no rule barring you from getting your putter that you left in your trunk after you tee off if you don't unduly delay play.

The rule does go on to say that you can't borrow another player's clubs.

But why should we be like golf for this rule? Do we gain anything?

I think the delaying play restriction is good enough...

Should we also ban kneeling on your towel or a disc ala Craig Stadler at Torrey Pines? Do we gain anything by forcing players to get their knees dirty?




I hate to be the one to break this to you reallybadputter but we ALREADY ban kneeling on a towel if the towel is under your supporting point. Check out the Rules Q&A...
http://www.pdga.com/rules/qa.php

But I can still use a towel or another disc under my other knee.

OK. I can wear pants, right? i can wear a kneepad, right? (I assume so since my shoes have padding in them and they can be between my foot and the surface.)

Can I tie the towel around my leg? Or a bandanna? It now becomes clothing...


When was this ruling changed? There is no date listed, and how is one to know that they have to go back and look at something under the Q&A again? Is this a recent change? Was it announced?

Looks like we all have to start playing barefoot. Another inconsistent ruling. One could place a towel down on the tee (per 802.04.A), but not in the rough per the "Rule Question: Building a Lie" Q&A. What's up with that!?

The Q&As really need dates on them so it's easier to see the new ones (or like this one, a change).

FYI all... here is the wording...

Conclusion: You take a stance in the mud or casual water just as you would in the fairway. One should never expect to be able to move obstacles, except as narrowly defined under �Obstacles and Relief�. One can�t �build a stance� except as allowed under 802.04 (Artificial Devices) A.

One could still place a small pad or a towel under any body part that is not the supporting point meeting the requirement of 803.04A (1).

and i agree that its strange to allow one and not the other. I can understand that the teepad is a safety issue but im just not sure that the 'rough' situation should be disallowed. Oh well... not my call but now I know to watch out for this one (aka.... not do it anymore

I do have an interesting thought though... in the 'rough' scenario... lets say you threw... go to your disc... place the mini in front of it but leave the disc there.. then you proceed to kneel on your disc. would that be allowed or is your mark still behind your disc regardless of the mini position?

I thought in ball golf players are allowed only a certain number of balls to use during a round and can not replace if they all are lost. IF you lose them all your out of luck. Anyone else know more about that rule? I think a similar rule could be used in disc golf. If you are on a water hole and know that you may not be able to replace lost disc/ or ball in golf , it might make you play the hole different,ie lay up safe instead of going for it. Just a thought.

There is no limit on the amount of balls you can carry. There probably is a rule saying they can't add any during a round, but I'd imagine they have ~20-30 balls in their bag so they'd have have to lose 1-2 balls <u>each hole </u> for this to be an issue.

I thought in ball golf players are allowed only a certain number of balls to use during a round and can not replace if they all are lost. IF you lose them all your out of luck. Anyone else know more about that rule? I



Limited clubs. Unlimited balls.

I do have an interesting thought though... in the 'rough' scenario... lets say you threw... go to your disc... place the mini in front of it but leave the disc there.. then you proceed to kneel on your disc. would that be allowed or is your mark still behind your disc regardless of the mini position?



Been there. Done that. I usually end up picking up the disc to flip it over. Can't have wet knees, can we?

Morning Stack, btw.

Joe

hey joe!... long time no see (missed the episode this week ;)

i've always done that too but the rule makes it illegal is the point. craziness man!

Thanks for the clarification.

If kneeling on an inverted disc is illegal, I have witnessed a lot of illegal throws.

For real "everybody" does it, the "cool" pros even carry a knee pad with them,but now because of a rules Q and A that is illegal??? Hello worms. (http://skugg.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/can-of-worms.jpg)

The way I read is that you can kneel on a towel as long as your foot (supporting point) in within 30 cm of disc/marker. As for using an inverted disc, that is questionable. Could the argument be made that the inverted disc is in fact a "small pad" as the rule allows?

The Q&amp;A seems to disallow anything that prevents the player being in contact with the playing surface at the supporting point used to meet the requirements of 803.04.A.1


One could still place a small pad or a towel under any body part that is not the supporting point meeting the requirement of 803.04A (1).

http://api.ning.com/files/MQncTJ5BNkghRsFESovblDQuxp-gX5XsVvTZFoeSo-I_/putt.jpg

Is this a legal putt? The marker is in front of left foot.

Legal.

By the way, note in the Q &amp; A that this is a reversal. In the 2000 Worlds video, a player uses a towel (in a now illegal manner) under the supporting point and the commentators note that it is legal to do so.

Another legal stance under the new interpretation would be if the pictured player's right foot was swung counterclockwise up to even with the knee on the towel and the mark happened to be in front of that right foot.

In the PGA, Ken Stadler, I believe, was DQ'd for laying down a towel to kneel and make a shot for "Building a stance". It was on a Sunday and he had light colored pants on and didn't want them getting dirty. He was in the hunt too!

I use my old unbreakable Innova Hammer right-side up (it gives me some spring) whenever I have to kneel. I also saw a video clip of Mike Moser (I think) putting down a bath towel on the teepad to avoid getting "mucky". Pretty cool. Come on, it's frisbee, we are creative souls, why would it matter if we put a towel or disc down. Me may save ourselves from potential poison ivy in the crotch area or fire ants up our buttocks.

My 2 cents.

Not real impressed with the rules Q&amp;A myself. The whole discussion about Bluebonnets is pointless. Texas DPS even has a page about the bluebonnet myth on its website.

In the PGA, Ken Stadler, I believe, was DQ'd for laying down a towel to kneel and make a shot for "Building a stance". It was on a Sunday and he had light colored pants on and <u>didn't want them getting dirty.</u> He was in the hunt too!




He should have lost his tour card as well.

Towel is allowed on the tee pad, just not on the ground under a supporting point within 30cm on the LOP behind the marker.

This Q&amp;A reversal came about from another thread regarding the building of a stance by placing a rock in the casual water behind your lie so you didn't have to stand in the water. The RC felt that you should play it where it lies or you always have the option to take relief with an unplayable penalty if you like. That is if casual relief without penalty isn't available at your lie. So, this is what we got and how it impacts other areas like this towel situation.

if a disc or towel are used at the secondary support/not behind the marker i understand that as legal , am i right?

Yes.

I follow ball golf and yeah....

Craig Stadler:"The Walrus" was disqualified from the 1987 Shearson Lehman Brothers Andy Williams Open for kneeling on a towel to play a shot from under a tree. However, when the tree got diseased in 1995, Stadler was given the honor of cutting it down.

I think it changes the course. ( even kneeling on a disc) IMO

Kozak

thank you!
i dont believe ive seen anybody do the illegal towel/ordisc behind the marker!!! yea right!!! now i Know A New RULE.

This emendation (not allowing putting a towel down behind the marker) to the rule book should be struck down. I can understand the point about not being able to build up a lie, but clothing/cloth should be allowed between a players body and the playing surface. Does this require us to all play in bare feet and shorts so that there is nothing between the player and the playing surface? On the other side, would knee pads be disallowed?

Lurking BOD members, can you please exercise your veto power and fix this?

Read the whole thread...

People are always saying consult the rule book if you believe the rule to be in question, but even if you know it's a rule violation and by some weird coincidence no one on the course has a rule book does the violation still count? You may know the rule, but you cant prove it without the evidence.

There are conflicting answers in that thing...

Disc Resting on Top
Disc Knocked out of Tree

Please clarify which is correct concerning where to play a disc that is knocked out of position by another disc.

If you dont have a rule book in a sanctioned tournament I think that should be illegal

And the Q and A printout?

Hey Sharky! Click on the RULES tab at the top of this page. You should find the Q &amp; A section once there.

Kneeling on a towel behind one's mark is now interpreted as illegal?.....that's just asinine. As someone else already posted, do we need to begin playing barefoot and in shorts? After all, if I wear pants and kneel behind my mark, I am not in direct contact with the playing surface.

From the rules:
802.04 Artificial Devices
A. During a round, a player shall not
use any artificial device that may assist
in making a throw, except those devices
that reduce or control abrasion to the
skin (such as gloves, tape, bandages,
gauze, etc.) and medical items (such as
knee and ankle braces, etc.).
----------------
Wouldn't placing a towel on the ground to kneel on behind the mark fall into the category of an artificial device to reduce or control abrasion to the skin?

Psst I know where it is, I'm trying to make a point here. :D

From the rules:
802.04 Artificial Devices
A. During a round, a player shall not
use any artificial device that may assist
in making a throw, except those devices
that reduce or control abrasion to the
skin (such as gloves, tape, bandages,
gauze, etc.) and medical items (such as
knee and ankle braces, etc.).
----------------
Wouldn't placing a towel on the ground to kneel on behind the mark fall into the category of an artificial device to reduce or control abrasion to the skin?



Brilliant! Good observation, krupicka...you get a gold star! :cool:

I follow ball golf and yeah....

Craig Stadler:"The Walrus" was disqualified from the 1987 Shearson Lehman Brothers Andy Williams Open for kneeling on a towel to play a shot from under a tree. However, when the tree got diseased in 1995, Stadler was given the honor of cutting it down.

I think it changes the course. ( even kneeling on a disc) IMO

Kozak



If memory serves me, another interesting aspect of this affair was that the call was made after a phone call from a viewer who had seen the miscarriage of justice on TV. Big brother is watching!

Joe

Wouldn't placing a towel on the ground to kneel on behind the mark fall into the category of an artificial device to reduce or control abrasion to the skin?



As long as you keep it strapped to your knee for the whole round. All of the items mentioned in that rule are essentially attached or secured to your body for the whole round. I believe you could wear something like volleyball knee pads during the round on muddy days and comply with the current rule interpretation.

Do I also need to wear a rain jacket the entire round? What about the gloves I wore at the start of the round while it was chilly. Do I still need to wear it when the sun is baking me?

Some wear a glove just for driving and take it off for putting. Are you implying they can't do that?

And the Q and A printout?



funny you should mention that... i actually asked the rules committee about the possibility of being able to print the entire Q&amp;A section just to be safe instead of having to print each topic individually and I believe they are working on it.

doubt many if anyone will print it out and carry it with them since it doesnt seem like too many carry rule books (or just choose not to crack them out when needed). I see knowing the rules as more of a safety issue against others trying to call non-rules on you/me.

Do I also need to wear a rain jacket the entire round? What about the gloves I wore at the start of the round while it was chilly. Do I still need to wear it when the sun is baking me?

Some wear a glove just for driving and take it off for putting. Are you implying they can't do that?



Those aren't items related to the abrasion rule you were referencing. There's no doubt they are worn as standard pieces of clothing attached or secured to your body as opposed to a temporary item placed to build your lie per the rule interpretation. Not saying I like the interpretation, but I think it's defensible under the current wording. BUT, the wording could be improved next time around.

Seems like this thread about building a lie could be given it's own category. The only reason I happened back on it was that I'd started the original thread. Knowing about this rule is probably as important or more important than the purchased disc item.

I think the Rules Q&amp;A made it clear that players shouldn't be using anything to build the area behind their lie. If you have been wearing clothing items like shoes all round as your standard playing setup including jackets coming on and off and even changing shoes during the round, that's fine.

I think the RC is relying on common sense from players and the group that would indicate whether a player was taking unusual "one shot only" actions in violation of the spirit of not building a lie. I think a player could put rubber boots on to play a shot from the soggy/muddy area on the edge of a swamp and be in compliance since that's standard clothing for those kinds of conditions. If they carried specially modified platform shoes with 6" elevation for trick shots, I think that might violate the artificial devices rule along with building a lie. Are you saying you can't make these kinds of judgments regarding whether a player is attempting to circumvent the rule interpretation regarding building a lie?

To reduce or control abrasion to one's skin, simply kneel on a glove rather than a towel....problem solved. :D

Seriously, this rule appears to be the catch 22 to "building a lie". That is, in reference to kneeling on a towel behind one's mark:

From the rules:
802.04 Artificial Devices
A. During a round, a player shall not
use any artificial device that may assist
in making a throw, except those devices
that reduce or control abrasion to the
skin (such as gloves, tape, bandages,
gauze, etc.) and medical items (such as
knee and ankle braces, etc.).

Kneeling on a towel could easily be argued in favor of this rule. Nowhere in the rule does it stipulate that artificial devices have to be attached a certain part of the body throughout the entire round. Besides that, the use of "Etc." in the verbiage leaves the door wide open for interpretation.

"I wasn't building my lie, I was preventing abrasion to my skin" :p

yes but when it explicitly says somewhere else that you cant use a towel then that would rule it out... right?

if theres a law saying that you can bring metal objects into work that help you do your job

then theres a rule that says... you can't bring guns to work

you cant argue that theres a catch 22 since theres the other rule about bringing metal items.

its not consistent at times and thats what I think the Q&amp;A are good for... real world examples of the rules in use and a definitive answer not just guesses that happen during the course of play.

This ruling in way stupid. Only about 20 people actually know about the rule in the first place. How can you enforce it if it's not in the rule book? And when new rules are put in arbitrarily shouldn't all of the players that are registered officials be notified? I'll bet you that Climo doesn't know about this rule.

To reduce or control abrasion to one's skin, simply kneel on a glove rather than a towel....problem solved. :D




I was actually thinking about taking off my shoe and kneeling on it. :p

I have the entire Q&amp;A in a word/html document that I import into my Treo for reference. It also includes the rule book, but you can put that on anything that reads pdf files. PM me with your e-mail if you want me to send you a copy of the Q&amp;A.

As for using a towel, if it is being used to stop abrasion, we clearly have a rule that allows for the use of items to help with that. I know that it was stated these items must be worn throughout the round, but I don't see anything like that in the rule. Here in Tyler, we have a problem with stickers. The city is working on it, but we still have a problem. If you throw into a tree, to minimize movement of the tree you have no options other than to kneel. Towels protect you from the stickers and pine needles. I can see how the Rules committee was concerned about interpt on this one, but shouldn't the majority determine if the rule was building a stance or protection based? Can't the player state their intent and get a ruling before proceeding? We require this with provisionals. Since the Q&amp;A clearly says towels cannot be used and the rules clearly state a knee pad can, then just carry a knee pad. As for wearing it continuously, as stated before, I don't see anywhere in the rule that that is required.

No, the rule is in the book. The interpretation, however, is not.

Here's a scenario......

Player wants to kneel behind marker using a towel. Group or official warns against it, says it would be considered "building a lie". Player then proceeds to pull out a knee pad from his bag and slips it onto his leg. The pad is now considered a piece of protective clothing to prevent abrasions to the skin....just like a glove or bandage (which is allowed).


Arguments?

To reduce or control abrasion to one's skin, simply kneel on a glove rather than a towel....problem solved. :D




I was actually thinking about taking off my shoe and kneeling on it. :p



Two stars!! This guy is blowing the curve for the rest of the class! :D

Trying to unhijack this thread. There's a new thread (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=796364&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Post7 96364) for this discussion.

What were we talking about? :confused: :D