We make a WIDE range of flexibilities and surface grips for our putters.
If you are very particular or looking for something specific, the best case scenario is to get in front of a large selection and flex around on them to see if you can find something you like the feel of. Everyone seems to like something different, which is why we make so many different types of putters.

Even though we only state 4 flexibilities in our marketing, we use is a scale more like 1-10.

Remember: our marketing between model is also based on surface complexion as well as flex!
*
1 is the softest surface and floppiest we make (think ssss),,, most sss are 2�s).
An ss is a 4, a soft is a 7 and a medium is a 9 which wont really flex unless you really apply pressure ( most M�s are probably a 9).
There are tons of runs that fall in between the numbers 1,3, 5, 6,8 and 10.
Again our marketing of SSS, SS Soft and medium is not only flex, but surface complexion.
There are formulas that we use when shooting for lets say,,, a 4 (Super Soft) and within in each class there is at least 1 polymer that is proprietary to that particular class.
A Medium has a % of a talc filled polypropylene (PP), a soft has a % of a regular PP, a SS has no PP and a SSS has a soft rubber TPV or TPE less than 70 A shore.

All recipes for production runs have 2 materials in common, a 90A shore TPV that is compounded with a mineral which is the �concentrate� that makes the discs heavy and a non mineral filled 80A shore TPV that weighs .93 that is the base.
The concentrate weighs 2.0 density and the target for a 175 putter would only be 1.4 density.
PP weighs .90 and the talc filled pp weighs 1.7.
The method of mixing each batch to get the right flex and weight is a very challenging task (cross between math, science and art) and will always produce runs of discs in between the 2's,4's, 7's and 9's.

The one GREAT thing about dry blending our batches as opposed to having a master batch produced for us for each flex, is the fact a dry blended match allows the softest of the materials to migrate to the surface of the part.
So in all 3 flexes, medium, soft and ss, regardless of the flex, the 80 a shore will migrate to the surface making for soft grippy discs even if they are not that flexible.. The SSS has a rubber that is less than 70 a shore which not only makes it softer in the surface but more flexible as well.

I�m guessing this is more information than most people need,
One persons� idea of soft compared to another�s is QUITE different. For us a soft putter is just a little flexible ( probably less flexible than all other putters on the market when new, but break in to become more flexible) but all our putters are SOFT when it comes to the surface and grabbing the chains, because of the dry blending.



The thing I have come to find hilarious is the fact that players want the disc�s so flexible that they hardly hold their shape and then scratch their heads when the flight plate sinks or dimples.
For players that don�t want your flight plate to sink, (and I am also one of these guys), I suggest you use our putters marked soft and get them really broken in or you can find the least flexible SS�s (3's) and maybe that could work.
Most discs that are SS or SSS may eventually sink in the middle or dimple.

In the future we will be building new tops for our existing 3 putters that will be thicker, less gyroscopic and have different shapes. The next one we are working is a grooved top or thumb track type of gripping area.
Hopefully they will be out by Bowling green or the ST Louis open!!

I putt with 12s...

I putt with 1's and 2's and do short drives with 7's and 8's.

How will the new tops affect the stability of the discs and will they be permanent retools?

I like the 1-4 for putting and 6-8 for approach and short drives.

9s. everything. 9s.

I putt with 1's and 2's and do short drives with 7's and 8's.

How will the new tops affect the stability of the discs and will they be permanent retools?



They wont be retools they will be new tops and new models!

Is there any chance of the new proto wizards being ran again? especially stiffer, in the 9 range?

Hey Dave, I need to get a couple of those Magic to practice with. The Oz man said they are similar to the 86 Softie in flight characteristics.

I can see the conversation now...

David McCormack: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...

Disc Golfer: Oh, I see. And most putters go up to ten?

Dave McCormack: Exactly.

Disc Golfer: Does that mean it's flexible? Is it any more flexible?

Dave McCormack: Well, it's one more flexible, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be putting at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your putter. Where can you go from there? Where?

Disc Golfer: I don't know.

Dave McCormack: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?

Disc Golfer: Put it up to eleven.

Dave McCormack: Eleven. Exactly. One flexier

Disc Golfer: Why don't you just make ten flexier and make ten be the top number and make that a little flexier?

Dave McCormack:[pause] These go to eleven.

I think this is the best post I've ever written!

Nice parody to an already funny script I would say...

But I would let you go with funny...seeing as you said "flexier"...

Thanks for the info, Dave!

I have a 'Firm' Wizard, and that thing must be about a 14 on this scale, because it's seriously about as hard as a peice of ceramic tile. I'm scared to throw it when people are around! ;)


Can't wait to get a hold of the Magic...


sleepy

This is kind funny thread to read because I just bought some SSS Wizards and I thought that I was not going to like them because they were going to be S-O-F-T. The name does not quite reflect the flexiblity. LOL

The reason Gateway sells...


...I just bought some SSS Wizards and I thought that I was not going to like them...



It is the Curiosity plastic...

...people knowingly think an idea would not work for them, so they order three.

Gotta love it. :D

Well, I love my other Wizards so, I thought that I would give them a try...

I love wizards, and used to putt them all the time, then I was in a big putting slump, so I started trying different molds, brands, even weights and flexibilities and whatnot...

So I decided to try and switch the disc I was using to give me a sort of...new frame of mind on putting.

I quickly tried a DX Aviar, and realized it was not going to work for my standard putter, it just felt small to me...

Then the 1080 Driver Plastic, which is amazing. I really like it, and I still use it on 20' and in putts because it is much softer than the KC Aviar, even though it feels smaller in the hand.

I have now settled on the Kc Pro Aviar (Big Bead) so it is a much more bulky disc,and I just love it. I use it, outside of really cold play, all the time. And for drives and approach.

I even putt with the Aviar Driver now as well. Just love those for drive, putt, and approach. Not great for distance but it can definitely get 325+ish easy enough.

But I still have many Wizards that I use in my backyard for practice. Trying weird shots or trying to play a certain line.

Most of them have a distinctive line that I am adequately familiar with to use for a "practice" shot.

But I have gone to any big bead aviar...

Of course, as a result of switching putters, and really bearing down hard on school, I have finally had my first rating slip (http://tinyurl.com/2khbpx)...

But I have some plans to fix that.... ;)

I have a somewhat similar practice putting routine to you. I have like 20+ putters since I started 2 /12 years ago and when I have the time I take them all, whether they be Wizards, Challengers, Aviars, or Warlocks and will just putt. Some people may disagree and say you should practice with 1 mold, but I like to have several putters placed around the yard and around different areas with obstacles so I never have the same shot twice. Plus with so many putters it keeps me in a consistent routine.

Too bad I cant calm my nerves in a tournament and utilize all that practice.

What are you smoking? :D

Ha!

But really, I actually practice putting with three or four of the same mold, weight, color. I use the other molds and what have you for throwing about +/-200ft. upshots and crazy hyzers and anhyzers....but mostly with putters and other slow flyers...

The Whitler is the most entertaining disc I consistently play around with at home...it really does its own thing...but it is still very accurate...

What are we talking about?...Oh yeah...

So there you have it.

I like about a -2. :D

If you have one of the original SSS they are stiffer than the new SSS. The originals were closer to the SS.

In the future we will be building new tops for our existing 3 putters that will be thicker, less gyroscopic and have different shapes. The next one we are working is a grooved top or thumb track type of gripping area.
Hopefully they will be out by Bowling green or the ST Louis open!!



So, are there going to be less gyroscopic Wizards, Warlocks, and Magics in addition to the regular line-up, or would they be considered different molds? By different shaped top halves, does that mean that Gateway could come out with countless molds with the Wizard bottom?

I putt with 12s...



LOL.... Me too! and mine glow if possible!

In the future we will be building new tops for our existing 3 putters that will be thicker, less gyroscopic and have different shapes. The next one we are working is a grooved top or thumb track type of gripping area.
Hopefully they will be out by Bowling green or the ST Louis open!!



So, are there going to be less gyroscopic Wizards, Warlocks, and Magics in addition to the regular line-up, or would they be considered different molds? By different shaped top halves, does that mean that Gateway could come out with countless molds with the Wizard bottom?



there are 3 parts to a mold:
the top (nose to nose across the top or dome)
wing (under camber, Nose to Bead)
bottom (rim depth, inside radius, flight plate thickness and overall inside diameter)

If you mean endless tops for the 3 wings we have now ( wizard, warlock and magic), yes, there could be endless amounts of tops, 1/2" , 5/8ths" 3/4" and 1" grooves.
Lines of headrick, 3 lines 4 lines 5 lines .etc..

By adding plastic above the parting line you can make a Flat nose, more rounded nose, sharper nose,, etc..

.080, .090., .100, .125 thick flight plates could be made thicker by the top OR bottom.
If we make one thicker by the bottom, than it will also have a more shallow rim depth!

By changing the bottom you could change the radius where the rim meets the flight plate to get a different feel and certainly a different flight!


Hopefully there wont be a need for this many different putters, but YES endless is a word that can be used and each change could warrant a different name, especially if the discs feels or flies different :confused: :D

We make a WIDE range of flexibilities and surface grips for our putters.
If you are very particular or looking for something specific, the best case scenario is to get in front of a large selection and flex around on them to see if you can find something you like the feel of. Everyone seems to like something different, which is why we make so many different types of putters.



The Wizard has been my favorite putter since I first picked up a brick-red Proto Wizard in early 2002, and I�ve lost or given away several dozen since then of all different flexibilities and plastic variations (Chiefs anyone?).

After a several year hiatus from competitive disc golf, I�ve had time this last six months to get back in the game, and figured it was about time I had extra putters to practice with. So I finally shot David McCormack an e-mail and put in an order for a stack of Wizards, along with a couple Assassins and a few other discs I hadn�t had a chance to try. When it showed up two weeks ago, it was the happiest box of plastic I�ve ever opened up.

Now, having had a couple of weeks, including many hours of field time, to play around with a whole range of Wizards (my thoughts on Assassins are in the Assassin thread), I thought this was a good place to share some impressions of the different flex-level Wizards and how they fly in a variety of situations.

First, a quick FYI: I throw forehand and backhand equally on the course, and have similar distance with both. Average drives are 330�-360� either way. Great drives are 400�-420� either way. Anything past that is a miracle. My two favorite discs are a Teebird and a Wizard, and a lot of my best course scores are from two disc rounds.

Wizards used for testing, arranged by HSS:
3 brand new 175g Medium (~9 in stiffness)
1 med beat 174g Firm (~10 in stiffness)
4 lightly used, 170-175g Soft (range from probably 5�7 in stiffness)
1 brand new 175g SSS (2 or 3 in stiffness)
1 well beat 172g Medium (~9 in stiffness)
1 well beat 170g Soft (~6 in stiffness)
And, for fun, a VL (<120g) Wizard (~6 in stiffness)

For comparison, I was also throwing:
1 172g lightly used 1080
3 175-181g lightly used E Elements
1 180g medium beat Glow Element
1 178g lightly used H Element
1 160g E Speed Demon
1 175g lightly used DX Pegasus
1 175g lightly used DX Firebird
2 178g lightly used Super Rocs
2 174g lightly used Champion Classic Rocs
1 166g well-beat CE Classic Roc (old mold)

The Speed Demon, Pegasus and Firebird are used because I often prefer very overstable discs for midrange and approach shots, and was curious how the Wizards would hold up in terms of accuracy.

I was trying all variety of shots: max-distance hyzers, flat, anhyzer and helix; forehand and backhand approach shots at 250�, 210�, 150�, 100�; elevation shots (sadly, my field location only allows downhill, not uphill shots); making use of 5-10mph wind to throw with-, against-, and cross-wind shots; and, of course, putts.

The short story: after all the testing, the three Wizards that will be staying in my bag for tournament rounds are: brand new 175g Medium (9), well beat 170g Soft (6), and brand new 175g SSS (2-3).

Overall, for all types of shots, the Wizards as a group were more consistent for me than any of the midrange discs I was testing them against. For overall accuracy for midrange/approach shots (150�-250�), they matched the overstable discs, which are what I have a lot more experience using from that range. Yet the Wizards have a lot more flexibility in terms of the lines they can be thrown on � the overstable discs are at their best on well-defined hyzer lines, or high helix-shots, whereas the Wizards could be used on gentle hyzers, straight shots, or all range of anhyzers.

There are far too many impressions and possible comparisons to go into here, so I�ll keep it to the basics, but first start with three quick pointers for people who may not have yet made full use of their Wizards:

� Try your Wizard on high, forehand anhyzer lines. Because Wizards are so neutral, they are ideal for high flick shots where you pop/roll your wrist and cause the disc to make a gentle (or sharp) anhyzer decent at a 90-degree angle left of the direction you released it. I often find myself in the woods and see/use high open routes that most people would never try because I know where and when the Wizard will turn on this type of shot. The Wizard is the most predictable disc I know of for these throws (the Classic Roc is a close second). All the Wizards tested performed this shot well (except the VL � it was too hard to predict) � based on their stability, they required varying levels of snap to get them to make the turn.

� A similar flick anhyzer is a great shot to use for long runs at the basket � I was finding this effective even in an open field, because the anhyzer meant that I could run putts 100� out, but because the putter was diving sharply toward the basket, even when I missed, I had an easy comeback putt. The SSS and beat-up soft Wizards work best for this shot.

� Alternatively, use your Wizard for sharp flick or backhand hyzer putts/approaches from 60�-150� out to run the basket without risk of a long comeback putt. The Medium/Firm Wizards work best for this shot.

Basic RHBH drives, released flat � All the Wizards flew similarly and were able to hold dead-straight lines 4-8� feet off the ground for ~240�. The new Medium wizards hyzered out ~15� at the end, the beat wizards and the SSS all landed straight, the lightly used Softs were somewhere in between. This was true pretty much regardless of wind direction. There were minor effects that should be expected � slight distance reduction against wind, slight gain with wind, greater hyzer at the end for the overstable discs with a right-to-left wind, etc� but overall, the Wizard is less affected by wind than many other putters. I found the Wizards to be more consistent than either the Elements or the Classic Rocs and equal in consistency to the Super Rocs, though the Super Rocs have a little more low-speed, right-to-left fade on flat shots.)

Forehand drives, released flat � All the Wizards worked for this shot, but the new Medium Wizards were the most forgiving of minor errors in release. If I rolled my wrist on the beat Wizards, they would flip; the lightly-used Soft Wizards would anhyzer; the new Medium Wizards would anhyzer slightly, but would barely miss the straight line, and if thrown without wrist-roll, would go dead-straight with a slight hyzer finish � the exact mirror of the backhand line.

The SSS Wizard � In the interest of space, I�ll spare you reading more details about the Wizards in general� those observations may make it into a later post � but I did want to give some special consideration to the SSS Wizard. I was very surprised by this disc. I usually prefer stiffer putters, but the SSS was stiffer than I expected it to be � it is less bendy than many other soft putters and holds a better shape in the hand (though you can bend it if you want to). It also has a great, chalky grip (similar to the original Proto Wizards when they were fresh), and I found that the SSS has the best grip of any putter I have used. It STICKS. If it hits a tree, it drops, if it hits the chains, it stops. I will keep this in my bag because it is an amazing disc to have for quick greens.

I also found that the SSS � rather than being flippy, as I expected it to be � holds the flattest overall line of any Wizard I have. It starts straight and lands straight unless you intentionally put it out on a wicked hyzer or anhyzer. Something about the plastic and the way it moves through the air makes its flight SSS � Super Stupid Straight � so this is an AMAZING disc for tight alleys, because it will go straight if you release it down the alley, and if you miss the alley, it will hit a tree and fall flat instead of kicking off deep into the woods. I had a little more trouble putting with the SSS than with other Wizards � sometimes it would seem to stick to my hand and I�d miss right � but I think that is because I am so used to putting with much stiffer Wizards. I think anyone who is used to soft putters will love this disc. I have one I�m keeping mint to give to my brother, because I think it will replace his well-loved APX Swirl.

Overall, kudos to Gateway and thanks for making the best putter around in such a wide range of flex. I�ll be keeping a 2, 6 and 9 in my bag� and would take out all my �midrange� discs before I would take out one of my Wizards.

Any chance of hooking us up with some black custom stamp soft Warlocks for the Lexington Open X ? Hmmmm? Hmmmm? :cool:

I think that we are stamping the Lexington discs on Monday!!!!

*rubs hands*

Yes!

Lyle told me he had talked to you guys. It might be the best thing in the players pack this year!



mmmblack putters...drool /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

The Voodoo is very promising, very nice grip!!

we just ran a small run ( about 120)of Medium Flex Magics in Orange and Yellow/Orange.

The Magic Auto ship is being pushed back to the week of March 10th or 17th.

I will be posting an art contest today for the Mgic with 1st place prize being one of our new Training Targets called the BULLS EYE.

To get those Medium Magics, should we call the shop or are those being sold to vendors, Like DD.

Good Question!

The Magic Auto ship is being pushed back to the week of March 10th or 17th.

I will be posting an art contest today for the Mgic with 1st place prize being one of our new Training Targets called the BULLS EYE.




ooooo more details please!!!!!!!

Just finished my design. Now all I need is the submission date.

The Bulls Eye basket is a practice basket with the chains moved in from the original width. A smaller target means more accuracy on the course.

The Bulls Eye basket is a practice basket with the chains moved in from the original width. A smaller target means more accuracy on the course.



Nice! There are some really cool tone poles with chains at a Private course in TX that are really fun to practice on.

Just finished my design. Now all I need is the submission date.



Me too!

The Magic Auto ship is being pushed back to the week of March 10th or 17th.

I will be posting an art contest today for the Mgic with 1st place prize being one of our new Training Targets called the BULLS EYE.




ooooo more details please!!!!!!!


details are on the Magic thread!

Has anyone had a chance to throw any of the medium orange Magics yet?
I played a whole round on a tight wooded course using just a medium Magic and one of the latest runs of Evolution Elements.

It was great to see a BRAND new putter (the Magic) have a nice hyzer flip and even a late fade to the right on down hill shots, especially in the straight glide at slow speeds,,, kind of like a catch frisbee!
I was wondering who else may have had a chance to throw some of these?

NEW RUN OF E Elements:
This last run of E elements is probably the closest thing to the bright Orange ones we ran a few years back.
There are a few runs, mostly white but some Orange again ( only coincidence) that are very close to them in flight, feel, Flex and have a similar slight dome.
There are also recent runs with a nice and smooth continuous (somewhat taller) dome that are stiffer for those who like a firmer flex in their mid-ranges.
These firmer ones may feel too stiff for some in the cold weather, but I think they will feel perfect when the temperature gets up there in the 90's this summer.

I've thrown one of the orange one's around a bit as well as a white one. They have a nice feel to them. The flight path of the mediums seem to have a bit more turn to them than the soft black proto's. The mediums work great for those shots where you want it to turn and not really come back(Thrown flat). The black one's seem to have a smidge of fight in them towards the end of their flight. I really like the mediums on a high turn over line.

I made an order for some of the M Magic. I hope to add them to by BG Am bag... :)

On dog leg right holes, if I threw the disc flat would it hold the anny line or would it turn and come back? There are a few holes here in BG like Hobson Hole 1 where I need a right turning putter, and my Warlock's have not been beat in enough for these shots.

and my Warlock's have not been beat in enough for these shots.



Really?!?..

No, they're surprisingly more stable that I thought, but still a great putter. I use a Glow Warlock for short straight drives, but if I turn it over it'll hold the line but come back. That is why I need the magic for right turning shots that will continuously stay right. Would also help on long jump shots as well so I wont have to worry about the disc hyzering upon release, but I know form has to do with that as well.

One month driving with a soft wizard and it'll handle that line for you beautifully

I agree on a broken in Wizard for top players and those with a lot of spin, but usually it takes a bit more than a month to get one turning.

Players are really liking the fact that the Magics are acting like a 2 year old wizard right out of the box, especially players who need something to turn now and are not comfortable breaking in a disc on purpose.

I agree on a broken in Wizard for top players and those with a lot of spin, but usually it takes a bit more than a month to get one turning.

Players are really liking the fact that the Magics are acting like a 2 year old wizard right out of the box, especially players who need something to turn now and are not comfortable breaking in a disc on purpose.

The medium Magics are a little more under stable than the Chalky Black SS ones. ( at least when both are new)

we just ran a small run ( about 120)of Medium Flex Magics in Orange and Yellow/Orange.



Did you increase this run? I have some white ones in my order. :)

I the he was referring to the color. I have some dark grey medium/firms that he sent me yesterday that feel very nice.

there were a few other colors of medium besides orange but most were the 3 shades of orange.
the grey are actually and S/E blend and the white were made a few weeks before.