There is a really simple way to enforce and check discs and weights accurately.
The first thing I would do is make the max weight for all discs 180 grams.
A very simple balance scale could be made with 180 grams of weight on one side. If necessary we could make the weight 175 grams and send out a 5 gram weight for the 180 gram discs.
If your discs tips the scale over the center mark, than it is too heavy. Its really rather simple, not that expensive and if we care about the wieght rule, well worth the money.

I have proposed that all monies that come in from new disc approvals be earmarked and spent on equipment like these simple scales, gauges and templates.

This proposal has never gotten a response,,,, as of yet.
It just seems to make sense to me, but hey ,I'm just one guy who thinks if your are going to make a rule than you should enforce it or it least have a way to!

The only tech standard that would be difficult to test is the flex.
After a lot of thinking and some limited testing I came to the conclusion that 30% of the time our pdga events are played in weather below 50 degrees.
When the temperature is below 50 degrees most DX, D or S plastic will barely flex, unless its a SS style puuter.
Most drivers in high end plastics would not pass the flex rule at 50 degrees either.
At 40 degrees Only ss putters and drivers made in FLX or our Hi flex will still pass the flexibility test.
at 30 degrees alomst no discs will flex under 27 lbs of pressure!

my point is we have a flex rule and about 30 % of the time most shots on the course are thrown with discs that do not pass the flex standard.
whats the point of the rule is it only applies 70% of the time??

Maybe 30% is too high but even if its 20%, I think the point is the same.
We have a rule that only applies to discs when it is warm or warmer.

For thos ethat want to discuss this, Please respond on the new thread!

You, the disc manufacturer, dont sell discs that exceed the weight limit. There one problem solved.

: ) :

But no TD is going to take the time to weigh every persons disc, esp. when all the players come to BG for example, we'd be looking at close to 10,000+ discs and so there is no way to enforce the rule, and what are the guidelines for flexibility? I know I cant even grip 3/4 of my discs this time of the year, and like Dave said if that is true about cold weather affecting the flexibiluty then the only discs I can use in tourneys are my 2 E Elements and my SSS putters.

There is really no point in creating a rule where discs have to meet certain weight and flex. requirements if there is no way for said discs to be checked because no one wants to waste their time.

all you can do is enforce production standards and trust that people use the approved discs. which is what is in place now.

So you want to ban my 199g Zephyr? :mad:

all you can do is enforce production standards and trust that people use the approved discs. which is what is in place now.



I say that the discs should be weighed at NT's. There were quite a few top Pros who had overweight discs at the Japan open but they didn't use them since there were scales to show they were allowed. Anyway it shouldn't be too much to ask to weigh them an=t NT's.

thats a great start, but obviously not a solution.

Gateway, like all other companies, try our best to make sure over weight discs do not get out of the factory.
The facts are, some still do, because of scale errors and human errors,,, etc..
There are 15 other manufactures and one day there will be 50. As I have stated, their will be discs made that are not even intended for pdga play.
There are already over 10 million or more discs in the publics hands and over the years its safe to say some discs have been sold that are outside some of the rules allowed for pdga play.

The question is,,,,," does anyone care"?

all you can do is enforce production standards and trust that people use the approved discs. which is what is in place now.



No. You could be like hockey.

http://www2.nhl.com/hockeyu/rulebook/rule19.html

In the NHL rules, If you think my stick (disc) is illegal, you can have it checked.

If it is legal, you get a bench minor (2min penalty) plus a fine of $100...

If it is illegal, I get a bench minor (2min penalty) plus a fine of $200...

my point is we have a flex rule and about 30 % of the time most shots on the course are thrown with discs that do not pass the flex standard.
whats the point of the rule is it only applies 70% of the time??

Maybe 30% is too high but even if its 20%, I think the point is the same.
We have a rule that only applies to discs when it is warm or warmer.



But Dave, wouldn't you agree that the discs that are more flexible at 70 F are also more flexible at 35 F?

You have a spec that says measure the flexibility at X temperature. If you didn't have that, then Gateway could claim that a solid aluminum disc meets the spec at 800 F. (Or some other rediculous temperature).

When you have a specification that is a strong function of temperature, it makes sense to specify the temperature at which you are going to measure it. Don't claim the spec is bogus just because the measurement temperature isn't the same as every temperature at which you are going to play. Otherwise in Phoenix in August I should have other options available to me...

Hey dude,,,
There is no need to make an attack on me or Gateway about this. You could have just said company-X could make an Aluminum disc, not Gateway.
I just want to there to be rules to enforce the rules and wonder if anyone else cares about this?

I'm not sure I said the flex rule was bogus, I just dont understand its purpose, especially if we are playing in events in cold weather when our discs do not flex.
Whats the rule actually intended for?

If its about safety than we need to include courses as well as the discs.


You know, there is a rule that says discs need to be made out of plastic, that would still apply.


There is a Durameter test that can be done to keep the hardness of the plastic within reason.
Hardness and flex modulus are not always in direct correlation, but better than nothing.
Most discs would be less than a 60 D shore, which would at least be a rule that could be tested and enforced.

The question is,,,,," does anyone care"?



I would say no because it's a rule that doesnt have any major affect on a players ability to play the sport. I mean who is really going to be that petty and blame the competitions disc weight and flex because their playing so poorly. No one is going to call a weight or flex violation because those issues dont matter. When I see rules like weight and flex then they just seem to be rules to make the PDGA 'look' professional and say "Hey we have governing rules too! Can we be included in mainstream society now?", and not a rule that makes competition fair such as the 10m rule, or foot faults.

Dave, I meant no offense. I'm not attacking Gateway... unless you planned to actually claim that a molten aluminum Wizard with a built in heater pack at 3000 F was actually a Super Stinkin' Super Smelly Super Soft putter... :D

Its just that if you don't specify the test conditions, you can't really test anything. Since it was you Dave from Gateway that was saying that the test spec at about normal room temperature was not the same temperature as every single tournament ever played, I chose to use Gateway as the example instead of "company X." Besides, doesn't an ASTM standard durometer test have a specified temperature? I don't know and I'm not willing to pay the ASTM to get a copy of the standard, I'll assume that it does. I'll assume that 60D shore plastic in discs at 25 C is softer than the same material at 0C... It is for every piece of tubing I've ever purchased.

The question I have with the use of a shore test is the effect of disc design. I can use really stiff material that is really thin and I might score really high on a shore test, but the disc might flex more when it hits someone than say a solid 3/16" thick piece of plastic that scores a lower durometer. Of course I don't personally know what really matters when it comes to disc vs. skull...

The flex rule seems to be intended to keep discs from being too stiff at room temperature. The idea may have been safety originally. I don't know what the original rulemakers intended. Even at the current specs at 70F, discs can really hurt. Maybe the spec is not great, maybe it makes sense...

But, even if the stiffness doubles for every 10 F colder the temperature drops, the number of random picnics you encounter in the fairway gets more than cut in half with each 10F until the number of snowshoers and ice fishermen starts increasing. ;)

Does the current stiffness spec matter? Maybe, maybe not, and maybe the current spec did back when the XD and the Roc were sharp edged discs... Maybe we should fire all test discs at a given speed and spin rate at the ear of a pig cadaver at 70 F and a given angle and those that don't cut the skin pass...

Do I care about stiffness? Not enough to call out a fellow competitor on it. Weight might matter if the disc was more than 5-10% overweight, but less deviation than that probably doesn't matter...

So we have specs that manufacturers are expected to meet and assuming that they follow good manufacturing practices and have some level of quality control we assume that their shipping product will be close to spec. By forcing the manufacturer to meet a spec we effectively restrict their design space...

Dave I don't know you personally nor do I know any disc manufacturers personally but from what I have seen, collectively popular disc manufacturers are not manufacturers but fabricators. They are not currently set up to meet manufacturing specifications because they are more concerned about quantity and not quality. You might have heard of a company called Motorola, they became famous though their process control methods Six Sigma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_sigma). They have stived to eliminate the number of defects down to 3.4 defects per million opportunities. I would recommend the read, I work in manufacturing and I would say that if we produced products with the same variability that most disc golf manufacturers do, we would be forced out of business. Now the other side of the coin may be that hey, the market doesn't allow for the costs of specific testing at the manufacturer and that may be but if the manufacturers are willing to ship product that may not meet the product specifications how can you expect anyone to enforce or follow the same specifications?

How do disc golf companys feel about returned products that don't meet the weight specifications? If I buy 10 discs and 4 of them don't meet current weight requirements I want replacements. I have heard the arguments about a tolerance on the weight requirements and I think it is a bogus attempt to move product that does not meet requirements. If the limit is 175 gm make them 173 and use a 2 gram tolerance if you can't control your process, if your process is in better control use a 1 gram tolerance. But by all means disc manufactures should be able to meet the requirements, after all Motorola does it to a level of quality that is quite amazing and it is far more complex to make microprocessors than injection molded discs.

By the way don't most major disc manufactures have there hands in the pot when it comes to standards anyways?

Maybe all retailers should weigh all product on the shelves, if they don't make the limit send them back to the manufacturer, eventually something will change!

I like the way the conversations is going.
I just want to hear someone else's opinion on the subject besides mine.
Of course I have my opinions and I'm glad others are not afraid to voice theirs. (I just wish we could hear from some of the top players in the game as well).

It's also good to hear how standards are handled in other manufacturing fields. ( not sure we will ever be up to the Motorola's standards though).

I believe if we get enough input that it can only help the future of the pdga and the rules we use to govern our play.

I should elaborate on why I feel testing at the events will be important.

Today all manufactures of golf discs are making discs and marketing them for use in PDGA events.
This will eventually change and if there is no fear of discs being tested at an event, that non pdga approved discs will eventually wind up being used at sanctioned events.
Today there are no real rules or any type of protocol if and when this happens.

Right now all you can do is check to see if the disc is on the list, but who is to say that the discs you are claiming to be on the list, is in fact, that disc.
Even if it is the disc, what if its from some recent tooling that has never been sent in to the pdga for re-approval.
what now???
Again the question is, should it matter to other players as long as it passes test??

Ive asked several experienced PDGA TD's what they would do If one player wanted another players discs checked.
Their initial reaction is a blank stare or long silence if it is on the phone.
Then they usually say, they're not sure or I don't know.

This seems to me to be a red flag that we may be heading for some problems. Problems that could be avoided if rules are made.

Right now all you can do is check to see if the disc is on the list, but who is to say that the discs you are claiming to be on the list, is in fact, that disc.
Even if it is the disc, what if its from some recent tooling that has never been sent in to the pdga for re-approval.
what now???




I think it would be good if the PDGA standards required the name of the disc to be included in the mold engraving next to PDGA approved on the disc. Thus when a stamp is stripped and the disc dyed, someone could look on the bottom and see that it is a Turbo Putt :Dand check the approved list.

i know some of the discraft discs have the mold name on the inside of the rim, the buzzz for example and the magnet has it in small raised lettering on the underside of the flight plate. its a nice touch and i dont think it affects the flight at all, in fact i like the texture on the rim for forehands. perhaps making it a standard would be nice.

im not sure what you would do when they want to retool and reapprove a disc, you can shave down a mold, but its probably difficult to change the name on the mold. hence the first run buzzzs having 'wasp' on the inner rim. it seems as though this problem is better addressed on the manufacturing side instead of the retail or consumer side.

Just responding to the title of the post, even though I don't sell any of their discs, it irks me that rules are being made and applied ex post facto. Just another example of why our slogan should be, "We are the PDGA. Don't expect any constitutional rights."

please explain what got applied ex post facto? ... just curious how you see it ...

Right now all you can do is check to see if the disc is on the list, but who is to say that the discs you are claiming to be on the list, is in fact, that disc.
Even if it is the disc, what if its from some recent tooling that has never been sent in to the pdga for re-approval.
what now???




I think it would be good if the PDGA standards required the name of the disc to be included in the mold engraving next to PDGA approved on the disc. Thus when a stamp is stripped and the disc dyed, someone could look on the bottom and see that it is a Turbo Putt :Dand check the approved list.


Its a good thought but you can use the same bottom for a disc ( where the engraving is ) and have 10 wings and 5 tops for 50 different discs which would all have the same engraving.


BTW,
PDGA approved is not required on the discs as far as I know!

please explain what got applied ex post facto? ... just curious how you see it ...

Um, those guys in Chicago came out with two discs last year that met all the tech standards which some of you didn't like so they changed the standards and then banned the discs. Were you hot tubbing with Terry for those meetings? The second time they decided to hide behind some kind of bogus plebescite, as if the plebes ever mattered before. :D You guys are funny. I'm on all kinds of meds right now so cut me some slack if I'm across the line. More :D

I just got a big pile of money for writing about the ex post facto clause so i'm up on ex post facto. It is not some high falutin Latin derrogative. It means to take something that was legal when done and make it illegal and then apply the new rule to the act which was legal when done.

In the United States you got a constitutional right against the gummint doing that which unfortunately is about as evenly enforced as the ten meter rule. But we got no constitutional rights in the PDGA.

please explain what got applied ex post facto? ... just curious how you see it ...

Um, those guys in Chicago came out with two discs last year that met all the tech standards which some of you didn't like so they changed the standards and then banned the discs. Were you hot tubbing with Terry for those meetings? The second time they decided to hide behind some kind of bogus plebescite, as if the plebes ever mattered before. :D You guys are funny. I'm on all kinds of meds right now so cut me some slack if I'm across the line. More :D



Since the discs were approved before the ruling did the manufacturer get compensated for making the discs before they were revoked?? What's to keep another situation like this from happening again where a controversial disc comes out, meets the requirements but people complain and then its removed? How many times are rules going to be changed before the PDGA constitution and bylaws are set in stone?

son of dude:
I think the beauty of the US constitution, is the ability for it to be changed to adapt to an ever changing world.
The foresight of the founding fathers of our country is something the pdga TSC and board should look closely at.

Changes to the US constitution must go through the proper channels, this assures something doesnt get ram rodded through in the middle of the night.
BTW, who all signed the pdga constitution anyway?
(I'd love to see a characture drawing of the signing party)

Regardless of whether or not I'm for or against any past pdga rulings, I have a question for Bruce about Ex post facto.

Is ex post facto meant to apply to rules within a game or just laws?

I'm guessing its probably meant for laws, not rules.
Just because a law was changed and needs to be enforced doesnt necessarily make it wrong or bad to do so.
discs outside of the PDGA rules are not agianst the law , just the pdga rules that govern play.
So by making a new "pdga" rule for discs its far from taking away anyones US constitutional right.
I'm not really versed on PDGA constitution, so I cant really comment, but would like to know if a past pdga ruling has contradicted it somehow.


heres an example. ( maybe not the best one, but here goes):
The psychedelic drug Ecstasy was not illegal at one point and was actually given out by bar owners with you cover charge.
Once the drug was found to be "dangerous" to your health, through testing, they made what was once legal, now illegal, with a need to enforce the new law.
I'm guessing its possible that some bar owner could have claimed ex post facto here.
From your simple definition, this sounds like Ex post facto could apply to this scenario, would it?



To me rules and LAWS are surely different, as nothing about a non pdga approved discs would be against the law.




On top of this, if there is a need to make a new rule, doesnt it make sense that specifically applied rules and protocol are also in place to enforce the new rules?

The idea of ex post facto enforcement would be prosecuting the bar owners for giving out the drug before it was made illegal.

This would be like having a legal turbo putt, passing a rule saying that the turbo putt is illegal, and then going back and DQ'ing retroactively someone who used the Turbo Putt in a tournament before the new rule was placed into force.

The idea is if it was legal when you did it, you can't be punished for having done it. However that doesn't stop the man from making it illegal from this day forward.

The expost facto clause, [US Const, art I, sec. 10] like most Constitutional rights, is just a fundamental rule of fairness that we all agree on and follow in our normal, ethical dealings with others. Our forefathers' genius was to recognize it in a succinct way, guarantee it, and then appoint a Supreme court which promptly enforced it against them in 1798 in Calder v Bull.

It is just that rule that once you've said something is ok to do, you don't change the rule and apply the change retroactively to something that was o.k. when it was done. Like if the Blockbuster tells you there's no late fee for 30 days, and then they change the grace period to 7 days, they aren't going to apply the new 7 day rule to people who've rented something under the 30 day rule. That kind of unfairness is bad for business and available only to those who think they have a monopoly on your business.

So its really a rule of fairness about how we apply the new rules when we change them. When we changed the 2-meter rule we didn't go back to all those tournaments where there was a two-meter rule, change all the scores, and announce new winners and losers. That would be insane.

If the PDGA believed in the kind of fairness reflected by the ex post facto clause, when they decided to clarify the rule about disc shape, the only fair way to change the rule would be to grandfather in the Turbo. That may be giving the guys in Chicago more benefit than mere ex post facto protection. Once I read the actual tech standards and the mathematical definition of "radius," the petals or undulations or whatever don't violate any of the tech standards. And if they changed a rule to make the Wheel illegal, well, that's the definition of ex post facto.

The thing is, the federal Constitution only governs the rights of the people and the states versus the powers of the state and federal governments. It does not govern the rights of individuals in their voluntary relationships in churches, clubs, and associations, like the PDGA. There you have to agitate, or go start an organization that's better.

So, having filibustered for a bit, I think this is my conclusion. The kind of fairness reflected in the ex post facto clause would have to allow all of the Turbos manufactured before the rule change to be legal for PDGA play because they were legal when they were manufactured. It wouldn't have to allow you to keep manufacturing legal Turbos after the rule change. That just seems fair also because you spent time and money making a mold. But the ex post facto clause doesn't apply legally to the PDGA. It's just a lawyerly way of thinking about what is fair and unfair.

True about the US Constitution but the US Constitution must be changed to adapt to new times in our country and is responsible for the welfare and civil rights of 300+ million people, whereas the PDGA constitution is in place IMO to just show how the organization is to be goverened, but not protect the members and even the manufacturers. The US Constitution is ammended democratically and by a majority of delegates representing the millions of Americans, while the PDGA's rules and constitution are changed without true democracy and without true representation. None of us elected the BOD or any member of the committees, or at least I was never given a ballot to elect these people, so who is representing the average member? And who is representing the manufacturers?

What is to keep the PDGA from suddenly changing rules when they want when they dont like a disc or the company that produces said disc? To quote Alan Moore's brilliant graphic novel Watchmen "Who watches the watchmen?"

Basically, what I'm saying is the PDGA watches over us, but who watches over them? There seems to be no system of checks and balances, and when we're in a time of the sport with new ideas and new technology are floating around, for the PDGA to stop progress (ex: Turbo Putt and The Wheel) from being approved is a step backwards in the wrong direction. I know that makes it sound like I'm starting a new topic on an old issue, but the point I'm making is that the governing peoples of the PDGA just seem to be doing what they want, and you as a manufacturer should be somewhat scared of what they can do because if the rules keep changing on discs what's to keep them from putting you out of business by outlawing your equipment, and any other manufacturer's disc?

But I'm on your side Dave. I want the rules enforced, and I strongly disagree with the PDGA changing rules because a few people whine. If there is a rule/bylaw/constitutional change then it needs to presented with both sides of the issue, and it needs to be decided democratically. Our $50 a year should be worth more than a rating. It should be worth all of our participation in the evolution of our great organization and our great sport.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bF78VIFHiREB9S2jzbkF/SIG=120ep1vl5/EXP=1199744636/**http%3A//www.theloadtoad.com/american_flag.jpg

Added for emphasis :D

TNone of us elected the BOD or any member of the committees, or at least I was never given a ballot to elect these people, so who is representing the average member?



Funny... you may have ignored the ballots, but according to Article III, directors are elected to two year terms by active members...

http://www.pdga.com/org/documents/2006/PDGABylawsCURRENT.pdf

Then I dont believe I have had the chance to vote yet, but I scroll down to read 4.2 and it says the BOD has the right to appoint directors and allow them to stay in office for however long they want which is not very democratic IMO, and 2.1 allows the BOD without discration to appoint anyone they want to certian membership positions.

And 2.2 scares me because it says members shall have no proprietary interests in the Corporation, and shall not be entitles to share in the distribution of the corporates assets. I'm probably wrong, but when I read that, according to my personal translation it's saying we dont have any rights to know what goes on behind closed doors. If I'm wrong please correct me.

What frightens me the most out of any and all words in the constitution is the word "discretion." It's like electing Congress and the President, showing them all their legal rights and rules, but saying if they feel the need to they can bypass the vote and use their own judgement. Oh wait, our Congress and President already do that! We're screwed.

Thanks for the education and clarification on the meaning of ex post facto.

I am by no means a rules freak, but if we keep making more rules for discs used in events but no rules to enforce them at the events, than we will eventually have a problem.

*
If I was hearing from board members that they were working on ways to enforce rules on discs at events and 2012 was the projected date to implement them, I'd feel much better. ( unfortunately I am not hearing this as of yet)
This would give us time to think this over clearly and make very educated decisions and eventually rules and protocols for testing discs at events if necessary)

Maybe I'm jumping the gun and our board is working on this very subject.
I do realize that there is a lot of research to be done in this area, especially by those not getting paid.
One suggestion I had was to appropriate all monies coming in from disc approvals to be spent on developing rules or equipment for testing the discs and even pay someone to work on this over the next few years.


So back to the topic on enforcing the rules. ( for those who care)


Lots of players who read this thread have been PDGA Td's and/or will be PDGA Td's in the future.
It would be nice to hear what you guys think, as one day you may have to enforce a pdga rule on the legality of discs at an event your running.

I want to pose and hear others pose, hypothetical situations on what could happen down the road concerning the use of discs not conforming to the pdga rules (new or old).

So I am a player and during the round I pick another players putter out of the basket.
It doesnt look like any disc I have ever seen ( and I think I know them all)

Personally I could care less as it seems to be well within the rules and really don't want to make any enemies.
I have a dilemma though, because in order to be fair to the other players in the event, according to the rules, the disc should be checked.
Between rounds I inform the TD that I suspect one of my competitors discs is not on the pdga approved list.

What would you do if you were the TD?

I would ask the player to hand over the disc, see if it's a mold I know. If it is then check the approved disc list. If its not a mold I know then I will ask around. If it's no longer an approved disc, then I would consult my rules book and see what the penalty is for the rules infraction.

But more time could be saved if the TD's included a copy of the approved disc list in the players packages. Alot of time spent at Kinko's to make them, but if it keeps the players honest then its what need to be done.

I think that giving players a list of approved discs would be a waste of your time, your money, and trees. Most players do not look a piece of paper detailing how to play the course, let alone something like that. That information would be best to have in the hands of the TD.

Have you seen the approved list? To me, it kind of hard to read. It would be MUCH easier to read if it were listed alphabetically. It would be easy to miss a model as it is.

Other problem may arise as well. Also how often is the approved list updated and posted to the internet? What if a Mark's Discs just released his new driver, the Warp Speed. He tells all the players on this site that it is PDGA approved (like many manufacturers do on this site) but, it is not updated for 2-3 weeks. What happens in that time if a player is using that disc and someone calls him on it? I see that the last time that it was updated was mid-December but, I have read posts where people have new discs that are approved and they are not on that list.

You would need to make sure that the PDGA has a streamlined system for approval and posting of the newly approved discs before you wanted to start imposing penalties on players.

I think a similar example would be in ASA softball tournaments. With the new high velocity metal bats, and balls being hit 100+ mph off the bats, the ASA recognized there had to be limits. So they have had for some time now a list of unapproved bats. The players are responsible for complying, and the umpire (ie: enforcer)has the right to throw out a bat that in on that list. One of the specs for bats is they can only be a certain diamater at the end. So the ASA came up with a plastic oval the umpires would simply slip over the bat and check legality. So if your bat was not on the illegal list, and the plastic fit over the end of the barrel, the umpire let you play with it. I do recall numerous times an appeal was made to the umpire, who checked the bat, found it illegal and threw it out.

Now in disc golf, I would assume the TD's would play the part of the umpire, and would need something to measure the legality of the discs. There would probably also need to be an illegal list posted somewhere where all could see.

But more time could be saved if the TD's included a copy of the approved disc list in the players packages. Alot of time spent at Kinko's to make them, but if it keeps the players honest then its what need to be done.



That'll work. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif 200 pieces of paper handed out and thrown in the trash. If you are going to run up a tab at Kinko's, the rule book would be a better place to start.

If someone was complaining about a disc at a tournament being illegal, I would only check the easy stuff: Is it cracked? Is it too heavy? Have they retooled/refactored it?

To Dave's point earlier, PDGA Approved is not required to be on the disc, but it would help if the disc is challenged. If a disc is unstamped and doesn't contain PDGA approved on the bottom, how does one know if it's approved? I have a proto E element that I like throwing, but if I took the stamp off, there would be no way for anyone to know if the disc is legal or not.

One more thought. Often the Discraft Ace Race discs are not approved at the time and might not ever be approved later. How would a TD know which of those are legal and which are not?

An umpire has 18-22 people to deal with, 1 at a time. That is not the case for a TD...

I really don't think that small C-Tiers or even B-Tiers are going to have the staff or equipment to deal with something like that in all honesty when you have 30-90 players with each having 10-25 discs.

I think that you would need to start with the NT and A-Tiers and hope for a trickle down effect.

no, the BoD is not currently discussing an at-event test plan. (unless you count this thread)

for larger events, and those that use tee times, a bag check could be done by reporting in 5-10 minutes earlier. the bag is checked and cleared, then the TD does his remarks to the card, then you tee off. checking discs in shotgun starts would probably be a madhouse though.

i liked that idea about the bat ring. we could have a similar device that measured for diameter and height. weight could be done on scales. that would address the biggest problems. (ok, theres only one blatant problem right now, and thats weight)

the warning that unstamped discs are hard to verify is a good one. thjis weekend i played with one completely blank prototype Double D. other than the weight and my inits there is not a mark on it. i dont think anyone even asked me what it was - the assumption seems to be that if its in the bag, it must be approved.

maybe its like getting cats ready for a raod trip. you bring out the pet carrier for a day or two and let them acclimate to it. we ought to do a voluntary disc check at big events for a year, in preparation for formal testing to begin the following year.

Actually there's one problem that's more blatantly violated rule on discs than weight. How many times have you heard this?

"I mark all my discs by putting a random number between 165 and 175 on the bottom of them."

Ok, less likely in an A tier or NT, but I'd say that about 80% of the time if I'm around 4 or 5 people are out throwing drives between rounds, when we go out and pick up the discs, I'll pick up at least one that is unmarked.

I think a similar example would be in ASA softball tournaments. With the new high velocity metal bats, and balls being hit 100+ mph off the bats, the ASA recognized there had to be limits. So they have had for some time now a list of unapproved bats. The players are responsible for complying, and the umpire (ie: enforcer)has the right to throw out a bat that in on that list. One of the specs for bats is they can only be a certain diamater at the end. So the ASA came up with a plastic oval the umpires would simply slip over the bat and check legality. So if your bat was not on the illegal list, and the plastic fit over the end of the barrel, the umpire let you play with it. I do recall numerous times an appeal was made to the umpire, who checked the bat, found it illegal and threw it out.

Now in disc golf, I would assume the TD's would play the part of the umpire, and would need something to measure the legality of the discs. There would probably also need to be an illegal list posted somewhere where all could see.



Mike,
This is exactly the kind of reply I'm looking for that could help us.
Templates and gauges for wing length, rim depth, nose configuration could easily be produced and supplied for the larger events at first.
A simple balance scale could be used, especially if there was say a max weight of 180 grams for all discs.
The idea of voluntary testing for a few years is a great idea and should be done. ( easing into the idea of testing is surely best).
I know it would be a lot of work to test players discs, but the thought of the of them being checked and the penalty of the outcome will help assure not conforming discs are not used.
There is no way to keep non conforming discs from being made by those who do not intend for their discs or specific run of discs to be used in pdga events.
However, there must be a system in place to keep them ( notice non conforming over not approved here) from being used, for fairness of competition.


I have a few questions about how they handle situations in the ASA.
1st of all what if someone made a new bat last week and its not on the unapproved list, because no one even knows about it yet, what happens? ( it seems approved list might be better, but I'm guessing there are thousands and thousands of softball bats)

Secondly, lets say the ump forgot to check the bat.
After the player smacks a 100 mph hit off the bat it checked and found to be illegal, what happens?

Actually there's one problem that's more blatantly violated rule on discs than weight. How many times have you heard this?

"I mark all my discs by putting a random number between 165 and 175 on the bottom of them."




In my opinion, unless there is a situation where there are 2 identical discs with the same stamp, weight, color of marker, etc., are laying in the fairway, during and event, this rule shouldn't be an issue.
The chances of this happening are not that good!
If it does though and you cannot identify your disc, then and only then, should it be a penalty.

No offense to you Dave (or any specific disc manufacturer) but it would be much much easier for TDs if QC were better by disc manufacturers regarding weights.

While at Marshall Street one night I took my bag down and measured all the discs in my bag (Innova, Discraft and Gateway.) While some were old and weathered, some were relatively new. Less than 40% of my bag had accurate weights on the disc. Now, giving a +/- of 1 gram (to account for added moisture or dirt, or loss of plastic due to sanding), of those 11 discs that were wrong, 9 were wrong by over a gram. I had 1 disc that was 4 grams overweight! This to me is unacceptable.

I completely understand the added costs associated with weighing every disc, but if we are to increase enforcement of illegal discs, we need to be assured discs are correctly labeled as they leave the factory.

As a TD, I do not carry a scale with me at sanctioned events. It's legit risk though; if a disc's weight is questioned I'm really in a bind. Do any other TDs keep a scale with them if this situation were to arise?

One of the best ideas I heard from someone else on a thread is to include the mold of a disc on the protruding text on the underside of the disc (as the manufaturer's information is mentioned.) With custom stamps, dyes, and stamping foil that rubs off with use, there's often no way to identify a disc. I feel, moving forward, the PDGA should adopt a policy requiring manufacturers to include the model on the underside of the disc as plastic text - does that make sense? Stickers, stamps, or ball point handwritten abbreviations simply are not permanent enough.

[edited to grams not ounces, duh!]

One of the best ideas I heard from someone else on a thread is to include the mold of a disc on the protruding text on the underside of the disc (as the manufaturer's information is mentioned.) With custom stamps, dyes, and stamping foil that rubs off with use, there's often no way to identify a disc. I feel, moving forward, the PDGA should adopt a policy requiring manufacturers to include the model on the underside of the disc as plastic text - does that make sense? Stickers, stamps, or ball point handwritten abbreviations simply are not permanent enough.



As stated by Dave Mac earlier on this thread:


Its a good thought but you can use the same bottom for a disc ( where the engraving is ) and have 10 wings and 5 tops for 50 different discs which would all have the same engraving.

is it feasible to require the name of the rim on the rim and the name of the plate on the top?

One of the best ideas I heard from someone else on a thread is to include the mold of a disc on the protruding text on the underside of the disc (as the manufaturer's information is mentioned.) With custom stamps, dyes, and stamping foil that rubs off with use, there's often no way to identify a disc. I feel, moving forward, the PDGA should adopt a policy requiring manufacturers to include the model on the underside of the disc as plastic text - does that make sense? Stickers, stamps, or ball point handwritten abbreviations simply are not permanent enough.



As stated by Dave Mac earlier on this thread:


Its a good thought but you can use the same bottom for a disc ( where the engraving is ) and have 10 wings and 5 tops for 50 different discs which would all have the same engraving.





But why can't you use an insertable name block for the mold just like the insertable date stamps that are used on lots of mass produced injection molded parts?

If I look at the underside of my injection molded step stool I can find out that it was molded in March of 2006.

Granted, it adds cost to the molds, but it isn't impossible.

1st of all what if someone made a new bat last week and its not on the unapproved list, because no one even knows about it yet, what happens? ( it seems approved list might be better, but I'm guessing there are thousands and thousands of softball bats)




It seems the ASA has both an approved list and an unapproved list. Their testing program is stated as periodic and random. Bats must all have a certification stamp on the bat as well as be on the approved list. According to the Omaha Metro Softball Director, they send out the 'List" to the umpires is March. Seldom if any are added until the next year.

Here is a link with more details about ASA softball bat certification: Kind of interesting reading. What if the PDGA required manufacturers to apply a stamp of approval on all conforming discs?

ASA Bat Testing and Certification (http://www.asasoftball.com/about/certified_equipment.asp)



Secondly, lets say the ump forgot to check the bat.
After the player smacks a 100 mph hit off the bat it checked and found to be illegal, what happens?




In this case, According to our chief umpire, the batter is not only out and all basrunners go back, but that batter is ejected.

Fred, (?)
Thanks for your thoughts and for participating in the discussion.
*
I have already addressed why engraving would not work on the bottom of the discs as the same bottom can and is used for more than one model. This is being done by most companies that make discs to save a lot of time and money.
This helps keep the costs of discs way down.

As for weights, we do weigh every disc individually, but there is ALWAYS the potential for human error or scale error.
In your testing of 11 discs, Was you scale recently calibrated?
did you weigh them on more than 1 scale?
if so what was the variance?

If not then get a few recently calibrated scales, re-weigh them on each and report back with your results.
*
IMO a triple beam is the most accurate for weighing discs and longevity of use. Lower end digital scales will need to be re calibrated after a few thousand discs and will eventually fail completely.
Unless your digital scale is a heavy duty industrial one ( usually costing well over a grand), the triple beam is a better long term investment for about $300.

We should probably use the term " non conforming to pdga rules" as opposed to illegal discs, because there is certainly nothing against the law about any discs.

We should probably use the term " non conforming to pdga rules" as opposed to illegal discs, because there is certainly nothing against the law about any discs.


I'm sure some in law enforcement would say otherwise about my "heavily seasoned" Buzzbee. :p

Dave,

Do you have an outline for a procedure that could be phased in? If so, the many minds here could help in fine tuning it/giving it a sanity check.

snip...

While at Marshall Street one night I took my bag down and measured all the discs in my bag (Innova, Discraft and Gateway.) While some were old and weathered, some were relatively new. Less than 40% of my bag had accurate weights on the disc. Now, giving a +/- of 1 ounce (to account for added moisture or dirt, or loss of plastic due to sanding), of those 11 discs that were wrong, 9 were wrong by over an ounce. I had 1 disc that was 4oz overweight! This to me is unacceptable.




I hate to bring this up, but a disc that is 4 ounces overweight is 118 grams too heavy. :eek: I seriously doubt any disc is this far out of whack. Let's get our weight units straight.

I have weighed some discs at work. The balance is correctly calibrated and all of my discs were within 0.5g of the weight written on the disc. As disc weights are given only in whole grams, all my discs were spot on.

i figgured he meant grams and not ounces (an ounce is approx 28.35 grams), but I was gonna let someone else bring it up. I like more of a challenge.

I work in a lab. Units of measure are my life.

Now back to the example given about weights being off....

The older the disc the more beat up it tends to be. The more beat up, the more weight it tends to loose due to the beating. A larger diameter disc has a max weight of 180 g, so 4 grams off is off by 2.2%. One gram off is 0.55%.

If the max weight of the disc is 175 g then a 4 gram difference is off by 2.29%. A one gram difference is 0.57%

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

pardon my brain fart.

It's been edited to grams.

Dave,

Do you have an outline for a procedure that could be phased in? If so, the many minds here could help in fine tuning it/giving it a sanity check.


Hey Bill,
I do haver a few ideas, but wanted to hear how TD's would handle certain situations.


I guess the answer to my first question could be getting answered here.
The amount of people responding so far is a bit disappointing.
I would have thought there would have been more TD's chiming in.
Maybe less people/players/td's care than I think!

I'll propose situation #2 and see if it sparks more replies!

So me and my good friend Bill Burns are practicing a few holes before the 2nd round of a PDGA event.
I pick up bills disc and ,,,,,,,, man the rim doesnt seem very deep to me.
I heard he was throwing some bomb drives and this low profile disc could be the reason.
To avoid making enemies and to make sure we are all on the same playing field, I pull the td to the side before the start of the round and tell him that I think Bills disc is not conforming to the pdga rules governing the discs used for play.

This TD has a caliper, finds bill asks to see his disc.
He measures Bills disc and sure enough the rim depth is only 4% of the over all diameter.

There are 3 possible scenarios here as to how or why the disc is outside of the rules:
1) bill has played so much with this disc that it is worn down.
2) someone intentionally factored down the bottom rim of the disc.
3) a disc with the same name was sent to pdga for approval and passed ( with flying colors) later the mold was retooled to make it easier to mold or something and now the mold produces discs with only 4% rim depth.

In all 3 cases there's one common denominator, the disc is non conforming to the rules. Regardless if its example 1,2 or 3 this disc is outside of the rules.
The rules that are supposedly intended to assure fair play from player to player.

Your the TD, what would you do?

One of the best ideas I heard from someone else on a thread is to include the mold of a disc on the protruding text on the underside of the disc (as the manufaturer's information is mentioned.) With custom stamps, dyes, and stamping foil that rubs off with use, there's often no way to identify a disc. I feel, moving forward, the PDGA should adopt a policy requiring manufacturers to include the model on the underside of the disc as plastic text - does that make sense? Stickers, stamps, or ball point handwritten abbreviations simply are not permanent enough.



As stated by Dave Mac earlier on this thread:


Its a good thought but you can use the same bottom for a disc ( where the engraving is ) and have 10 wings and 5 tops for 50 different discs which would all have the same engraving.





But why can't you use an insertable name block for the mold just like the insertable date stamps that are used on lots of mass produced injection molded parts?

If I look at the underside of my injection molded step stool I can find out that it was molded in March of 2006.

Granted, it adds cost to the molds, but it isn't impossible.



I have already addressed why engraving would not work on the bottom of the discs as the same bottom can and is used for more than one model. This is being done by most companies that make discs to save a lot of time and money.
This helps keep the costs of discs way down.


How are these "factory misprint" stamps created?
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/nanook93/IMG_2875.jpg
I assume that they are done after the disc is molded, right? Could something like this work to identify discs with mold/model names?

nanook

[QUOTE]

In all 3 cases there's one common denominator, the disc is non conforming to the rules. Regardless if its example 1,2 or 3 this disc is outside of the rules.
The rules that are supposedly intended to assure fair play from player to player.

You're the TD, what would you do?



If I'm the TD and I'm certain the disc is illegal, my reaction is determined by the PDGA rulebook:

802.01
E. A player who carries an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with 804.05 A (3).

[QUOTE]

In all 3 cases there's one common denominator, the disc is non conforming to the rules. Regardless if its example 1,2 or 3 this disc is outside of the rules.
The rules that are supposedly intended to assure fair play from player to player.

You're the TD, what would you do?



If I'm the TD and I'm certain the disc is illegal, my reaction is determined by the PDGA rulebook:

802.01
E. A player who carries an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with 804.05 A (3).


Bill carried the disc, threw the disc 5 times observed by 2 others, blah blah blah,,, yeah all that.
Bill points out that the discs says pdga approved on it and it is on the pdga approved list. He claims he wasn't aware that it was undersized.


You're the TD, you have the rule book in hand, Bill wants to know why he is the only one who is having his discs checked. What are you going to do?

Well my replies were from a TD. Nonetheless...

That is a hard spot, but the rules are pretty black and white.

Why I think that it is a hard spot is that the player may actually be unaware that he is breaking a rule. Short of having devices to measure to ensure that all the discs that a persona owns & are throwing are within compliance with the rules a player may never know. However, like many PDGA rules ingnorance of the rules does not make the rule invalid. Just because you did not know about the 10-meter rule does not make you immune from it.

If he wants to know why, you as the TD would have to explain that a rule was supported by players in the group as called for in the PDGA rules. You are then going to then be prepared to just about measure everyone else's disc as a firestorm of calling it against the other people in that group and other groups ensues bringing your tournament to a potential grinding hault.

The last part is the sad part, but I do honestly see that happening.

maybe illegal can be different from non-approved. i could carry The Wheel legally. it is not an illegal disc. it was not approved because it failed to meet the definition of a disc. since its not a disc, its legal to carry. you could also throw it during sanctioned play, because it is not a disc. it would not count though :)

Mark covered what I would do (and the subsequent backlash) pretty well. Unfortunately, the rule does not even allow for a warning, just the two stroke penalty.

maybe illegal can be different from non-approved. i could carry The Wheel legally. it is not an illegal disc. it was not approved because it failed to meet the definition of a disc. since its not a disc, its legal to carry. you could also throw it during sanctioned play, because it is not a disc. it would not count though :)



would you get stroked for a practice throw if it isnt a disc>?

Maybe I'm not asking the question properly.

If you were a TD, what ruling would you officially make in order to get the next round started?

Dave,

I think that the relative lack of responses to your questions is not because people don't care about the problem, but more likely that they don't have a good solution! That's why I asked what your thoughts were, because when I read a posted question from someone asking how would the peanut gallery rule in a rules of play situation, I prompt the poster to posit their interpretations along with rules citing backing up the conclusion.

If a TD has a balance or other measuring devices, then a check could be made, but I don't think that the TD is under any obligation to do so. It is solely at the TD's discretion. And if someone else supplied the measuring devices, I as a TD would refuse to use them, since I cannot vouch for their calibration.

Until the contractual agreement between the PDGA and the TD requires the TD to have at a designated tournament site some types of measuring devices, whether or not said devices are supplied by the PDGA, I would not place this additional burden on the TD.

And besides, I think that non-adherence to the Rules of Play is a bigger problem to the sport than nonconforming discs, and I attempt to say that without diminishing the problems you stated previously.

Dave,

My previous post was made before your post of 12:08 AM. Let me address your situation #2.

Before round #2 starts, the TD measures my disc and finds it to be nonconforming to tech stds. I would expect the TD to give me my disc back, and ask me not to use it during the upcoming rounds because it is nonconforming. This exchange could be just between the TD and me, or whoever happens to be around during the exchange. The TD owes me no explanation of why s/he sought me out, or why a particular disc was chosen for examination. No penalty is assessed because the disc was not used during Round #2, since the disc could have been legal during Round #1 but then factored or worn down or whatever after the round. This I think is an important point. Unless a disc is subjected to examination immediately after a round, when it is clear that the disc has not been thrown or otherwise been put in a situation that could have altered its physical specs, it would not be a prudent ruling to say that a disc was nonconforming during the previous round.

If I am going to err, I would rather err on the side of caution or benefit of the doubt.

A very well thought out 2nd response.
Nice,,, Very nice,,,,, now were getting somewhere.
.

In response to your 1st one though;
I directed the questions to Tournament directors, which in our association shouldn't be viewed as the peanut gallery, but I get your point.
In my hypothetical situation, the measuring device can be supplied to TD's through the PDGA in the form of templates or Gauges.
The TD's not being obligated to check a competitors discs is part of the problem I am having.
There is no protocol or procedures on how to handle these types of situations.

I guess we could start at major events like worlds, Players cup and usdgc, where players are starting to play for substantial prize money.
I do have a few ideas but want to bounce around as many possible scenarios as we can before I put together something. Our board and rules committee will eventually need to establish some sort of rules and procedures to enforce the rules on the discs used for play. .These rules and procedures should be fair to every one and well thought out .
Hopefully playing out the scenarios here will help do so.
Fairness among the competitors is what I'm shooting for, with a target date of about 2010.


Lets go with a simpler question:

As a player, would you rather your opponent play against you with an approved discs that weighs 10 grams over the allowed weight that a TD chooses not to test or an unapproved disc that was never sent into pdga tech standards that is well within the rules of play?

Well, I would for one would want the one that is within PDGA standards but not approved. There would be no "technological" advantages with this.

Is the approval process difficult or expensive?

there can be no such thing as an "unapproved disc that was never sent into pdga tech standards that is well within the rules of play". by definition the disc must have been sent to the PDGA and approved before it is "within the rules of play".

if the un-sent disc is widely available in the market, and it was just a case of not sending it in for approval (instead of being some new mold that rolls 1000 feet into a headwind with 1 meter accuracy and is only available to three players), then i would rather play against the un-approved disc. it would not be an unfair advantage.

I would rather that the playing field be level, i.e., that all competitors be as stringent about obeying all equipment standards as I am, and that TDs have the backbone to investigate a complaint against a competitor for straying against them (and sanctioning said competitor within the rules if a violation is found).

I would STRONGLY suggest that there is a difference between having a backbone and having the correct resources with which to make such a call.

I would STRONGLY suggest that there is a difference between having a backbone and having the correct resources with which to make such a call.


I agree, but also STRONGLY suggest that even given the latter, many (most?) TDs would lack the former. All I seem to hear (except, notably from DMac & Sandalman) is, "Don't ask, don't tell."

If you had a way to determine such a thing AND players in the group invoked a rule, I don't see how a TD could not enforce the rule.

Can I decide that foot faults are no longer a violation?

The hard part in my eyes is a viable way to determine if rules are being broken.

weigh before teeoff.
stamp on back of disc indicating passed test..
no discs may be added to the bag during the round.

then it becomes a question of whether the player added a disc or not. much like enforcements of other rules.

there can be no such thing as an "unapproved disc that was never sent into pdga tech standards that is well within the rules of play". by definition the disc must have been sent to the PDGA and approved before it is "within the rules of play".




I guess I meant within the tech standards for discs used in pdga events :confused: :p

This is a perfect reason to discuss enforcing the rules with the masses.
Ideas and suggestions about the rules, how to word them and what will or will not work in enforcing them, can get worked out before implementing them.

If any one else has the foresight for a possible scenario that could take place, lets hear it!

Wow. This discussion has really opened my eyes to some ideas I haven't thought of.

I am a TD and have been involved with helping run several events over the last 4 years. The Technical Standards are probably what I know the least about in disc golf. With some of the more radical designs coming out (Quest, etc) I think the issues that Dave has raised are way more relevant now. Sure, the rule book says only approved equipment can be used, but, like Bill said..TD's are way more worried about starting events on time, making sure meals arrive and getting people to add their scores correctly than they are about whether Player 'X' has a Roc that weighs 210g. Furthermore, most of us wouldn't know where to begin to get the tools needed to test equipment if it's legetamacy comes into question. Maybe its time to start changing that.

Honestly, I havent given the standards much of a thought. I think the vast majority of our regional players have thought about it even less.

Who would I rather play against? The honest answer is I wouldnt care. Unless a disc gave someone a noticable competative advantage (something that I dont think you could tell without repeated observance by more than one person) I wouldnt even consider questioning equipment. The only time I'm really looking at a disc is to see if someone committed a foot fault.

I like the idea of voluntary testing for a few years. That would lessen the backlash when more stringant testing would ensue. Along with that....I think a lot more education is needed on what all the terms and tests mean and the reasoning behind them (I know I could use some). I do agree with Dave that there are no policies and procedures in place to handle situations where equipment comes into question and I agree that its needs to be addressed. From a TD perspective...I would probably handle it the way Bill described...descretly and non-confrontational.

I think it is very good foresite on Dave's part to recognize the potential for future problems and I'm glad he brought it up.

The biggest problem with enforcing the technical standards is the lack of testing equipment that can be used in the field. It is unreasonable to expect every TD/club to have calipers, a good balance and some way to measure the flex of EVERY disc EVERY time.

Even the rules say that normal wear isn't a modification, so how is the TD to know if the sanding of the rim because of repeated roadrash is "modification" enough to DQ the disc?

IMO, you will not see any great enforcement of the technical standards until such a time as easy to use test equipment is made available.

As a TD, I AM more concerned with people following the rules of play than the technical standards. Heck, if you could get people to have the same ethical standard that you see in ball golf, there won't be the need to actively enforce the technical standards because the players will police themselves.

Right now, the only tool the PDGA gives a TD to certify a disc is a current list of certified discs. The TD has the authority to disapprove discs that are cracked or perforated (802.01B) or have a post-production modification as outlined in 802.01C. Section 802.01A states that the disc must conform to the PDGA Technical Standards Document.

Section 802.10D states in part, "Discs must be specifically approved by the director if questioned by another player or an official, but in no case shall the disc be approved if it violates any of the above specifications."

The only tool that the PDGA supplies the TD with to certify a disc in accordance with 801.02A is a list of currently approved discs, so until the agreement between the PDGA and the TD requires the TD to furnish test equipment (yeah, right), or the PDGA furnished said equipment, as they currently furnish the list of approved discs, we will not see such testing done at a tournament, and if we do, I would have concerns. By that I mean, if a TD had a mass scale or radius tester or flexibility tester, etc, that was not supplied by the PDGA, and I had a disc tested and it was found to be non-compliant, I could file a complaint against the TD with the PDGA regarding the use of non-PDGA approved testing equipment at a tournament, and I think that I would have some justification in doing so.

I definitely don't want to come across as anti-TD or anti-PDGA here. We just need to be careful when we are adding to the TD's burden, and when we do, the tools need to be above questioning.

as a TD i will be requesting the waiver of the disc weight restrictions at my event this year just to avoid the potential impasse of having a player's disc weight questioned and having no means of deciding the matter at hand.

I'll take that as a compliment.

Thank you!!

Players can get scales and measuring devices pretty easily, if they are not sure about their discs.

I am proposing a simple balance scale, templates and Gauges supplied by the pdga in a TD kit.
One bad thing about an inexpensive digital scale ( less than a grand) is they get out of calibration very easily with a lot of repetitions
I strongly advised the TSC for an over all max weight rule of 180 grams so that weighing a disc in the future at an event, can be done easier and from a scale that is a lot less expensive.
I could easily fabricate a simple 180gram balance scale that could be mass produced and available for under $30.
The gauges for rim depth, wing length, protrusions, over all diameter and rim configuration wouldn't be that difficult either.


I often wonder how much of an advantage it is if a player can throw a 190 gram putter.
Of course disc golf is not intended to give stronger players an advantage. I agree there should be a weight rule, but I cant really see the difference or advantage between laying up with a 180 gram mid-range and a 180 gram putter.
Changing the weight rule to an over all max weight for all discs to 180 grams, will make it a LOT easier to test at events, which is the only place they need to be tested!


As I move forward in playing out the scenarios for implementing testing and enforcing, I am still trying to determine how many players actually care.

I carry a very light bag and stop at the car during the round to replace a lost disc, if necessary.

With what is being proposed it would be necessary to weigh all of the discs a player could potentially use prior to each round. Each weigh in would require a unique mark on the disc.

The just noticeable difference (psychology term) at 175 grams is about 2 grams for most people. This means most people can not tell the difference between a 175 and a 177 gram disc, we are not physically capable, our sensors are not that acute.

I think the disc weight system is good as is. No change is necessary.

weigh before teeoff.
stamp on back of disc indicating passed test..
no discs may be added to the bag during the round.

then it becomes a question of whether the player added a disc or not. much like enforcements of other rules.



Speaking strictly as a TD of 3 B-Tier events last year with 105,144 and 85 players, I have some questions -

Where do TD's and volunteers find the time to weigh every disc? Who will pay for the proper equipment to weigh and measure every disc accurately and fairly?

First - Where do I find the TIME to check 144 player's discs?
Let's assume every player has only 10 discs and it only takes 5 minutes per player to measure and certify each player's discs. It would still take 12 hours for one volunteer to check 1,440 discs. If I had 4 extra volunteers to help (yeah right!!!), it would only take 2 and 1/2 hours to check every player's discs. Does this seem reasonable or feasible?

My simple example assumes it is an easy process, but what about the time spent handling discgruntled players? What about spending time looking up unusual discs or older models? What happens when the player wants to check all 25 discs in their bag, plus the other 20 discs they may want to throw if it rains or they lose one or whatever? What about player's that have discs that didn't pass so they come back again with another 10 or 20 discs? What about players that show up right before the player meeting? For me, this is a time issue first and foremost. Even if this is for only a handful of events, where will the time and volunteers come from to make this happen?

Now let's assume there is unlimited time and volunteers to do this at PDGA events. Here are some more questions:

Where do I get a calibrated scale? Do I get to pay for this out of my pocket, the club's pocket, the player's pockets? Who will pay for regular calibration of the scale? Shouldn't it be certified in some way since I will be making decisions that will affect a player's ability to earn a payout? How will I know if the scale lost calibration during the transport to the event? Let's say I start weighing discs with the only scale I have and at some point during the process it is obvious there is something wrong with the scale. What do I do then? Is the PDGA going to pay to send scales and calipers or templates or whatever? Will the PDGA also pay for the stamp and ink pad to stamp each disc? Once a disc is stamped, is it assumed to be legal for every other event or must it be inspected for each individual event?

I think we are mainly talking about having the tools and procedures in place in the event that a disc is brought into question....not mandatory wholesale tests for each disc at all events.

I think for most every player, technical standards just dont even enter their thought process. Why would it? The major disc manufacturers (Innova, Discraft, Gateway, Millenium, DGA) dont sell discs that have not been approved. (Am I wrong?) Except for the Ace Race discs (and other prototypes that companies give their sponsored Pro's to try out perhaps) these companies dont even provide non-approved discs, right?

As far as the standards themselves, why is it unacceptable to be outside the tolerances on the various tests?

From what little I know about the approval process, it seems to be acceptable to me. Once the product gets in the players hands, its their responsibility to make sure their discs remain "legal" per PDGA rules. We just need some structure in place to guide TD's in the event that a discs legality comes into question.

Aren't we more concerned with players who may be consceously illegally altering their discs? Are there players out there that are or have been known to alter their disc to give themselves a competative advantage?

I think that Dave has indicated using his industry "inside information" that soon in the future there will be companies making discs that are not PDGA approved and have no intentions of ever seeking PDGA approval. They are not going to be the big boys, but others on the outside looking in. They will see that the PDGA player is a minority and not caring about making discs for them as they are the few.

thats one way of phrasing it. another might be:

They may or may not be disc golf's traditional big name manufacturers, and they will have a broad view of the sport. They will see that the PDGA player is a subset of all players. In addition to making discs for the sanctioned play market, they will seek additional growth opportunities by developing products aimed at more "casual" players.

**

this should not be viewed as a bad thing. in fact, we could use it to our advantage. anything that draws more distinctions between formal, sanctioned play and the style of casual play that goes on out in CityPark, MyTown, USA helps legitimize the sport.

I think those companies, if they exist, underestimate the power of PDGA approval. Softball is bigger than disc golf, and unsanctioned softball is probably bigger than sanctioned softball. Is there a market for bats that are illegal for sanctioned play? How big is the market for for golf clubs that cannot be used in USGA competition? In basketball do private facilities that have courts also have bigger hoops set lower to the ground with shorter foul lines and wider or narrower lanes? Is bumper bowling all that appealing to anyone but little kids and their moms?

If you are playing a game that has official standards and rules, inevitably you want to play by the same rules with the same equipment as the big dogs. Casuals often ask me "what do pros like you shoot on a course like this?" How angry are they going to be at their local retailer when I tell them, "54 is an o.k. score for me here, but I don't carry a bag full of illegal discs with perforated flight plates, and square putters for sidehill baskets, and those putters with super magnets embedded in the rim. I'm playing disc golf, not Inspector Gadget Golf."

it seems like for the budget of most clubs and the pdga currently.. we cant afford all of these measurement devices. BUT these things are already in place in the manufacturing process. there was mention about discs occasionally getting out of the factory that are above weight, due to human error and scale calibration. SO why would it helelp if we made td's weigh things, they are prone to at least the same human error, if not more. perhaps if the market is flooded with manufacturers making discs that arent approved, then the weighing and measuring will be a legitimate concern, but for now the current problems could be resolved with more scrutiny and a careful eye in the factory.

as a TD i will be requesting the waiver of the disc weight restrictions at my event this year just to avoid the potential impasse of having a player's disc weight questioned and having no means of deciding the matter at hand.


I'll bring a triple-beam balance & calibration certification. Be prepared to disqualify a HUGE stack of Rocs! :D

Well, I have no idea about the schoools in your area, but almost every elementary school I've been to or driven past around here has several outdoor basketball courts that are shorter and smaller than NBA standards. Just about every kid has or has had a basketball that is smaller than a regulation NBA ball. Little league baseball uses diamonds that are noticeably smaller than MLB standards, not to mention different standards for bats. Soccer fields are smaller for kids and recreational play, so are softball fields. I think every type of sport has full-on competition with strict rules and regulations, and they also have junior and recreational levels with less stringent rules and restrictions.

There should be no reason that the people who make the Aerobie couldn't also make PDGA approved golf discs if they want a piece of the tournament action. It should be up to the serious COMPETITOR to make sure their equipment meets all the regulations of the sport they to compete in. If a manufacturer revcieves PDGA approval for a disc they submit, the serious competitior should have every reason to believe that disc is ok to use in a tournament. If a manufacturer produces a disc that does not meet those requirements but says it is PDGA approved, that manufacturer should have to suffer some sanctions levelled by our governing body.

"there was mention about discs occasionally getting out of the factory that are above weight, due to human error and scale calibration. "

David, could you enlightnen us with what you think about the do-ability of * very rarely * exceeding a specific weight on a given mold? is it possible to control weight to that degree? if the rule was 180g, what assurances could you give the sport that its possible to control the mfg process well enough so that the 181-183g rogues are virtually non-existant? would you need to shoot for 175 in order to make sure, or is it better than that these days?

Take a look here at a list of drivers that are non-conforming to USGA Rules...


Non-Conforming Drivers (http://www.randa.org/index.cfm?action=rules.equipment.nonconfdrivers)

Now obviously, the PGA Pros are not out there using these drivers, but I am certain that there are tons of "weekend warriors" out there using them. So, I would not assume jsut because an organization such as the PDGA does not approve them that they will not sell. Obviously, all these companies would not be making these drivers.

Now, you will also see that a new Rule was changed effective 2008. Just sorta like the PDGA on some of the discs. What would be interesting to see and know is if these people continue to make them or will they change their design to meet USGA rules? Or even were these clubs previously approved and now not legal?

Now go here. Read the FAQ about the rule changes. There are some interesting Q & A that are directly related to this conversation.

FAQ on Rules (http://www.randa.org/index.cfm?action=rules.equipment.drivingclubsfaq&c fid=9255396&cftoken=82525002)

wow, thats for sure. very directly related! thanks for the link!

**

8. Why is the use of the Condition not recommended for use at Club level golf? If all drivers had to be included on the Conforming List, wouldn't this make it less confusing for Club level golfers and easier for Club Committees?

Applying the Condition at Club level could take drivers out of golfers' bags unnecessarily. There are many small manufacturers and club component manufacturers around the world who do not submit their products for a ruling and it would be unreasonable to prohibit the use of these clubs even though they may and probably do conform to the Rules.


3. Is it up to the Committee to ensure that I am using a driver which conforms to the new Rules?

No. It is your responsibility to ensure that your equipment conforms to the Rules of Golf.

I think the manf should be the place to fix the overweight issue.

I don't go with the few go out the door mis weighed philosophy. I also don't think human error or callibration is where we should put the blame at.

Either the manufacturer should certify the weight or not. if there is enough time for a person to put the weight on the disc, then there is enough time to guarantee its correct.

Either get more accurate scales, get 2 scales, or get balance scales, and get rid of lazy people who make to much human error.

Triple beam balance scales are not overly pricey, but they do take longer to accureatly measure items. However there are very good and accurate digiatl scale on the market for a decent price.

Also as long as the manufactures have a constant weight to measure for calibration ten calibration should not be an issue. I worked in a manf plant where every 30 mins we would have to recalibrate our scales.

So to put it clear, I call BS. It's not at the local, TD or PDGA place to enforce weight. It's at the manf'er and if they can not get it right then maybe there should be a clause in the approval contract to pull any future approval of the said disc.

I strongly advised the TSC for an over all max weight rule of 180 grams so that weighing a disc in the future at an event, can be done easier and from a scale that is a lot less expensive.



So basically, you wanted them to ban a disc that I currently carry and that has been PDGA approved for the last 15 years?

How about this: Round the weight limits as a function of diameter to the nearest 5 grams. Make your simple balance weigh 202 grams and come with a 5, 10, and 20 gram counterweights. You get roughly 1% leeway from the value.

You can verify that any disc is less than 202-167g in 5 gram increments, and you don't have to take the 199g Zephyr out of my bag.

I strongly advised the TSC for an over all max weight rule of 180 grams so that weighing a disc in the future at an event, can be done easier and from a scale that is a lot less expensive.



So basically, you wanted them to ban a disc that I currently carry and that has been PDGA approved for the last 15 years?

How about this: Round the weight limits as a function of diameter to the nearest 5 grams. Make your simple balance weigh 202 grams and come with a 5, 10, and 20 gram counterweights. You get roughly 1% leeway from the value.

You can verify that any disc is less than 202-167g in 5 gram increments, and you don't have to take the 199g Zephyr out of my bag.



I really doubt Dave is wanting you to not be able to us that disc just saying to increase the max on discs which max lower than 180.

I really doubt Dave is wanting you to not be able to us that disc just saying to increase the max on discs which max lower than 180.



But there was a question on the tech standards survey that in the report to the board of directors stated:


There was some consideration of a new max weight limit of 180g, but support for this
was limited in the committee and opinion was quite firmly against the idea. (SC 42% in
favor, Members 33%, Manufacturers 39%)



Now, in the same document it said that 17 manufacturers provided feedback. 39% of 17 is 6.63 manufacturers.

In the results, under the question:

There should be an overall weight limit of 180 g/cm in diameter.
2 Strongly Agree
1 Agree
2 Somewhat Agree
3 Neutral
1 Somewhat Disagree
0 Disagree
4 Strongly Disagree

Among Players who had a simple yes/no question, 836 (2/3rds) were fine with 200 grams. Only 418 thought it should move to 180 grams.

By that I mean, if a TD had a mass scale or radius tester or flexibility tester, etc,



My understanding of the flexibility test is that its a destructive test.

Want to get under the skin of the guy you're trailing by two strokes?

Challenge the flexibility of his favorite midrange.

Stand it up and put a 27 lb weight on it. If it doesn't fold in half they get strokes... if it does, they're out their favorite midrange... it now has a crease in it...

Now just avoid them putting a crease in you... :D

i calc'd the confidence intervals for each poll question. all but one of the weight questions fell within its margin of error, so we can be pretty confident that these answers represent the feeling of the entire constituency.

I took a survey/poll and from what I remember about the question on weight, it included " an increase to 180 or no limit at all" as the possible answer.

I specifically mentioned to Jeff H and Stork that it didnt seem right to include no limit at all with the possibility of an increase.

Maybe the manufactures took a different poll.

David, could you enlighten us with what you think about the do-ability of * very rarely * exceeding a specific weight on a given mold? is it possible to control weight to that degree? if the rule was 180g, what assurances could you give the sport that its possible to control the mfg process well enough so that the 181-183g rogues are virtually non-existent? would you need to shoot for 175 in order to make sure, or is it better than that these days?



It is my belief that if we were to raise the weight to 180g ( which would make it easier and less expensive to enforce), the demand for the discs to be mostly 175 grams will stay the same and very few palyers will actually want 180 gram discs.
In fact there is already a trend for drivers in the low 170's and upper 160's, but the demand for midrange and putters is still mostly max weight.
Like all disc manufactures, we aim our batches for max weight discs to be 175 grams. At times a few will drop down to 173 and we will make adjustments to get it back up and then they may go over by a gram or 2 and we make adjustments to get them back down.
Rejecting every single disc that goes over by 1 gram would probably increase the price of a max weight disc!
Besides its very easy for a scale to get off by 1 or 2 grams.

I am not sure what inexpensive digital scales you guys are using, but after a few thousand uses in a row, inexpensive digital scales are a lot less accurate. at 10,000 uses its time for a new scale.
Trust me, Ive tried them all and triple beams are the best. A good industrial digital scale costs thousands of dollars and can still get out of calibration.


The demand is so high for 175 gram discs that if we shot for 172g to make sure very few went over, we would wind up with not enough 175's and too many at 170. 170 gram putters are much harder to sell.

If the rule was changed to 180g with no tolerance, combine this with the possibility of the payers discs being checked, we would all make sure that NO discs went out of the factories over 180g. We could easily do this with no increase in the price of the discs or a bunch of discs made that are harder to sell!
Disc companies for the past 20 plus years have let over weight discs slip out, ( human error, scale care or didn't care, all the same) after all, a few grams really doesn't make that much of a difference or give a player an advantage, but 10 grams may.
Instead of raising the weight we could allow a tolerance of 1 or 2%, but I still feel a standard max weight is best for developing the testing equipment in the form of a balance scale over a unit measuring device!

One plan I have would allow players to check their discs at events over the next few years.
By then, serious players will have their bags right for play and will not have to worry if they get them checked.
I think it would be best to be able to enforce the rules if necessary by scales and gauges supplied by the PDGA, starting in like,,, 2010 or something.
It will be the fear that your disc may be checked that will help assure that the playing field for the equipment used, is level.

The customers dictate the market and if there is a demand for the discs to be within the rules, the manufactures will make sure they identify which ones pass or which ones don't pass.
The idea of sanctions being placed on certain models or specific companies, will not work in the pdga's favor.
Besides there are going to be discs made that are not intended for pdga play that will be harder to identify than say,,,, an aerobie ring!

If you don't think theres a need for the rules to be enforced on the players, than maybe you don't want to check your equipment, have others check it or don't care.



I have been in a lot of mold shops and talked to a lot of molders in the past 10 years.
In not one single circumstance have I ran across a part with a zero weight tolerance allowed in manufacturing of the part. Most of the time they are just weighing parts to make sure its packed out!
If there is ANYONE that knows of a molder that has to hold to zero tolerance in weight on producing plastic parts I would LOVE to talk to the molder myself to find out his success rate.

Bowling would be one example of a sport with Zero tolerance on the weight of the balls for use in pba and other sanctioned events.
The rule is 16 lbs with no tolerance.
Heres how it works in bowling;
Your bowling balls are checked at the door, if your balls are over weight or too hard ( max = 75 D shore checked with a durameter) your balls are not allowed in past the door. A player may go drill out his ball in order to get in under the weight. ( yeah a post production modification)
All balls have post production modifications as they do not come with holes drilled.
There are other tests and rules but these 2 are similar to those we use for disc golf.
Most bowlers use 15-1/2 lb balls and very few use max weight!
The carry is the same and they increase their stamina by throwing a lighter ball. ( (information provided by Justin Bunnell, with his 243.6 average in last years league play),,

Btw,
You can bowl in many pro events and make mad amounts of money and NEVER have your equipment checked, but if you want to bowl with the big boys in the big events, you will have to get them checked. ( get the point???)

If a ball doesn't pass the tests or isnt allowed, the player can be upset with his sponsor, but I'm pretty sure the manufacturer wouldn't be fined or the model of ball ruled illegal, just that ball!

maybe i'm beating a dead horse here but does there need to be a max weight limit as long as the flexibility standards are met?

It is lot easier to test weight than flex in the field...

How about this as a future requirement:

Manufacturers that wish to produce a golf disc for PDGA Approval must have the words "PDGA APPROVED" in raised letters on the bottom of the disc?

This way, if manufacturers wish to produce discs that are very similar to ones that are approved, but do not wish to go through the approval process, they can, by omitting those words on the mold.

Discs produced before this requirement would be grandfathered in, but they could have their weight checked, unless it had a hotstamp that indicated that it was PDGA approved.

The new discs would come certified from the manufacturer as being PDGA approved, so no field check would be necessary, unless there was a question about it being conforming in regards to sections 802.01 B and C (broken/perforated, or post-production modifications).

Whatever the tech standards are, the manufacturers would be held to max values, which the PDGA could audit. I understand that there are manufacturing variations, but you could run some SPC to determine what variations are seen, and to what degree. By this I mean, for instance, with a tight tolerance, a manufacturer may be trying to create a 179g disc, and one out of 300 might be greater than 180g. Another manufacturer may be trying to do the same thing, but because the tolerances are less tight, they might have one out of 8 discs be greater than 180g.

The PDGA and the manufacturers can come to a conclusion regaring what percentage of overweight discs can be produced without the manufacturer being penalized. With the correct sampling techniques, the PDGA can formulate what percentage of discs are overweight and take appropriate action.

That's it in a nutshell.

Comment appreciated.

I don't throw max weight discs, so I don't buy them.

What IS the percentage of discs produced AND shipped that are overweight?

If the rate is anywhere near 5% or lower, I think we are making a big stink over nothing (or next to nothing). ;)

I don't throw max weight discs, so I don't buy them.

What IS the percentage of discs produced AND shipped that are overweight?

If the rate is anywhere near 5% or lower, I think we are making a big stink over nothing (or next to nothing). ;)



Anita,

It's a pretty low percentage. I think we went through the store here and weighed a lot of the 175g discs just as a test, and came up with a really low perencentage of discs that were over 175 (like 2-3%), and none of the non-conforming disc were more than 179g, and most were 177-179 (a disc that is 21.2cm in diameter (like most Innova small diameter discs can actually have a mass of 176.1g, so a 176g disc would techinically conform).

David, I know Justin's a phenomenal bowler, but he would surely tell you that a max-weight bowling ball is 16 lbs. 15.5 lbs isn't that different. Interesting fact: most bowling balls that are under 10 lbs. actually will float in water.

Chap

I don't throw max weight discs, so I don't buy them.

What IS the percentage of discs produced AND shipped that are overweight?

If the rate is anywhere near 5% or lower, I think we are making a big stink over nothing (or next to nothing). ;)


anita,
I kind of figured that to be the case when you said all of your discs were within a gram
.
I'm betting your discs are in the 150-165 range???

The amount of over wieght discs over the years is probably a lot less than 5%.

If I or any other player buys an overweight PDGA approved disc in good faith and uses it, without player alterations, the disc should be legal, period. That being said, I have a 179G Diablo DT (marked 174)I'd like to trade.

Bill,
I'll address a few of your suggestions:

"Manufacturers that wish to produce a golf disc for PDGA Approval must have the words "PDGA APPROVED" in raised letters on the bottom of the disc?"

Lets see, 95 % of all disc golf discs produced today have pdga approved on the back, so the pdga has gotten a whole lot of marketing and advertisement in front of the 95 % of the players who bought discs who HAD no intentions of playing in a competition.
They see the acronym P.D.G.A. on the disc and probably find out about the pdga for the 1st time because of this.
The engraving to date, has been way more helpful to the pdga in the terms of value than it has to the manufactures.

Forcing the manufactures to engrave pdga approved on all discs intended for play in pdga events from here on out is a good idea. But, being able to distinguish when this actually started is not so easy, unless a date was also required. ( We have proto wizards with no engraving and since have had 3 different engravings on the bottom since.
at times during this we ran discs without engraving and now we have an insert, so if I wanted to make blank bottoms on the wizard tomorrow it would only take a few minutes to change out the insert and the discs could appear to be ran 6 years ago)

Over all I like the idea, but need some more time to weigh out the pros and cons of it!



"Discs produced before this requirement would be grandfathered in, but they could have their weight checked, unless it had a hotstamp that indicated that it was PDGA approved."

Grandfathering in disc as an alternative to ever having to check them because "pdga approved" is on the discs will not work so well.
Just because a disc has pdga approved on them does not mean they are conforming to the rules, regardless if they were made today or in 1985!

From your comments, I feel you may be opposed to having the players discs checked and you feel the players shouldn't really be responsible for the equipment they use to compete with at pdga events.
Is this accurate? I know it may be too much of a burden on the TD's and we all know events are the biggest revenue generator.

As a manufacture and promoter of the game, who has done and continues to do quite a bit to help grow the sport and the pdga, I'm not quite sure how many hoops or rings of fire, we (or other manufactures) would be willing to jump through, for what in essence is about 5%-10% of the business and getting less and less each week!.
I'm thinking new manufactures down the road could feel the same way as well.

I really like the thread and all the input and feel like we are heading somewhere with this. ( If I wind up getting too busy to post, please continue to participate.)

My main goal has always been to make sure that eventually the top players wind up playing with discs that are all within the same rules.
Chances are the submission and approval process to the pdga may be one of the problems and not part of the solution.


Its going to be $300 a disc this year for approvals and I'm guessing at least 50 discs plus variations will be submitted, thats over $15K, which is a good start to some scales and gauges!
It would be nice to know the money coming in from the approval of discs was being spent on developing equipment for testing and could also be used to pay Jeff H ( who has done all the testing to date for free) for his time and effort.

Heres the question for the day;
Would any of you have a problem with the revenue from approved discs being earmarked for use in tech standards?

If I or any other player buys an overweight PDGA approved disc in good faith and uses it, without player alterations, the disc should be legal, period. That being said, I have a 179G Diablo DT (marked 174)I'd like to trade.


I think they are legal to 179,,,, maybe its bad penmanship( you know the old human error) :o

If you want a 174 instead just send it back or take it back where you bought it!

btw,
I have over 200 innova, discraft, aerobie and Whammos that are overwieght ( i'm into collecting them) :D

What's the max weight for midranges then? My 2 E Elements are 181 and 182 and I certainly dont want to get penalized for carrying illegal weight discs.

I think they are legal to 179,,,, maybe its bad penmanship:

It would be a legal disc if it was actually 21.6 cm but it isn't. It's 21.1cm. or maybe 21.3 cm.

I think they are legal to 179,,,, maybe its bad penmanship:

It would be a legal disc if it was actually 21.6 cm but it isn't. It's 21.1cm. or maybe 21.3 cm.



Once again one of those things that adjusts due to the weather and shrinkage when the disc is made.

We have proto wizards with no engraving and since have had 3 different engravings on the bottom since.
at times during this we ran discs without engraving and now we have an insert, so if I wanted to make blank bottoms on the wizard tomorrow it would only take a few minutes to change out the insert and the discs could appear to be ran 6 years ago)



So being able to stamp the name of the disc on the bottom isn't really that much trouble if you can use an insert for this.



From your comments, I feel you may be opposed to having the players discs checked and you feel the players shouldn't really be responsible for the equipment they use to compete with at pdga events.
Is this accurate? I know it may be too much of a burden on the TD's and we all know events are the biggest revenue generator.




Is it too much burden on the manufacturers to produce discs stamped PDGA approved on the bottom to actually meet the standards? Dave, we should not be passing on the work that manufacturers should be doing onto the TD. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think each major league baseball is tested and weighed before being tossed to the ump. The ump assumes that each official baseball met the standards when it was made by the manufacturer. The only thing he checks is for foreign substances and scuffing.

Yes, players should be responsible for their equipment, but meeting the technical standards out the door is a quality control issue for the manufacturers, not the distributors, not the vendors, not the players. I think I'm with the poster above that says if it's stamped PDGA approved, then it's PDGA approved and only should be checked for cracks/perfs or post-manufacturing mods. I shouldn't be penalized for throwing the PDGA approved disc from my player's pack that is a couple of grams too heavy.

Yes, players should be responsible for their equipment, but meeting the technical standards out the door is a quality control issue for the manufacturers, not the distributors, not the vendors, not the players. I think I'm with the poster above that says if it's stamped PDGA approved, then it's PDGA approved and only should be checked for cracks/perfs or post-manufacturing mods. I shouldn't be penalized for throwing the PDGA approved disc from my player's pack that is a couple of grams too heavy.



BINGO!

It is the manufacturers fault if a heavy disc is released, not the wholesaler or the player. Every disc is weighed BEFORE it leaves the factory. If it's heavy, toss it onto the scrap heap.

FYI: Yes, most of the discs I throw are in the 150-165 range, but those were not the only ones I weighed. There were heavys as well as lights in the group. All of the disc (light as well as the heavys) weighed just what was written on the back.

Chap said that the percentage of heavys in their store was very low. I assume that what they receive at DGW is a representative sample of all of the discs pressed and shipped. Again, why are we making such a stink about 1 or 2 percent of the HUGE number of discs pressed out every year?

Dave,

That just goes to show how out of date I am. I had no idea that the words "PDGA APPROVED" or their equivalent were already on most discs. Then those discs should most definitely not be subject to an onsite tournament inspection, since those 2 little words indicate, to me, that the disc was made in accordance to PDGA tech standards.

re: older discs with no "PDGA Approved" hotstamp or raised lettering - I know I was fuzzier on how to handle those, and I look forward to reading others' replies as to the appropriateness of tournament testing, and if deemed appropriate, the procedure to put it in place.

Now get busy making more discs.

Confession - I have never thrown a Gateway disc, not because I have a negative opinion of them, but because I throw what I know and I know what I throw. I wish I had the time and money to try new discs, but until that happens, my Champion Orc and 2007 WDGC Super Roc are the newest discs in my bag, but I wish you well.

I may have this wrong, but I think the issue Dave is bringing up is with sponsored players. Yes, there are very few discs in the stores or on shelves that are actually over weight, but some sponsored players, who get their discs direct from the manufacturer, and ask specifically for overweight discs. I don't know what players if any ask for them, but there could be top pros, or top ams who aren't buying discs in stores with higher weight discs.

What's the max weight for midranges then? My 2 E Elements are 181 and 182 and I certainly dont want to get penalized for carrying illegal weight discs.


183.7 for the element!

I may have this wrong, but I think the issue Dave is bringing up is with sponsored players. Yes, there are very few discs in the stores or on shelves that are actually over weight, but some sponsored players, who get their discs direct from the manufacturer, and ask specifically for overweight discs. I don't know what players if any ask for them, but there could be top pros, or top ams who aren't buying discs in stores with higher weight discs.



If that's the question, then the answer again is that it's the manufacturers responsibility to NOT let overweight discs out.

The maker still weighs the disc no matter where they are shipped (sponsored player or wholesaler). The overweight ones shouldn't be shipped.

I may have this wrong, but I think the issue Dave is bringing up is with sponsored players. Yes, there are very few discs in the stores or on shelves that are actually over weight, but some sponsored players, who get their discs direct from the manufacturer, and ask specifically for overweight discs. I don't know what players if any ask for them, but there could be top pros, or top ams who aren't buying discs in stores with higher weight discs.



If that's the question, then the answer again is that it's the manufacturers responsibility to NOT let overweight discs out.

The maker still weighs the disc no matter where they are shipped (sponsored player or wholesaler). The overweight ones shouldn't be shipped.



Say your top professional player asks for a disc who's max weight is 175, and they want it at 180, or say it's a putter and the max weight is 180 and they want a 190. Are you going to tell this top pro, who is out there helping promote your company no? What if that was one of their stipulations for signing with you over another company, that they had to have specific weighted discs, no matter if they were above weight or not?

Is said manufacturer supposed to take the hit to their revenue from that player pushing their product by not signing, or pissing off that player? Or just make that player the discs they want, and reap the benefits of the publicity for the company that that player makes?

Again I can see you saying it's still the manufacturers fault, but shouldn't that player be held responsible for his discs, since that was what he/she demanded?

I apologize Dave if that wasn't really the direction you were going.


And to improve upon your bowling analogy, in small tournaments, even state tournaments, you can use basically any ball you want, and nobody measures it. And in bowling, it actually does make a difference if you use a heavier ball, someone using an 18-20 pound ball has a significant advantage over someone using a 16 pound ball, because the ball creates more force hitting the pins, which creates more pin action, and more pins fall down. But if you go to a National tournament, they measure the weight, and the size of your ball, so that no one has the advantage of a heavier ball, or a larger ball.

As this conversation continues, I hope to recognize ALL of the potential problems we could face, with the over all goal to assure discs used in play are fair from competitor to competitor.
I feel we need a way to handle any situation regarding these rules if and when they arise.

If you want to assume all discs that have pdga approved on the bottom will always be within the rules thats fine ( although rather naive), especially if the players using them will never have their discs checked.
If you " the players" dont want to assure your competitors discs are conforming, then I guess we don't need to check your discs or your opponents at the events.

Just because all of the discs you find on a shelf pass the tech standards, doesn't mean the ones at the events will.
Enforcing the rules calls for procedures for testing, equipment to do so and starts with actually making rules for enforcing the rules, along with the penalties for the PLAYER that is in violation..

On the flip side, just because you find discs on shelves that are non conforming doesn't mean all discs marketed under that name are also non conforming.
If you find 3 over weight ( "inset disc name here") does that mean all ( "inset disc name here") are not illegal for play? Of course not!

No specific rule that applies to the discs is more important than the other, whether its weight, rim depth, wing length, over all diameter, flex or nose configuration, they all play a factor in the performance.
These are the rules the TSC made for the discs used in play, regarless if they changed the wording to manufactured for play or not!
If there is no threat of discs being checked at an event or procedures in place if a players feels another player is using a non conforming disc, there WILL be discs used that are outside of the standards.
Checking discs on shelves will NEVER govern discs used at events!

The comparison to the Balls used in Baseball is not the right one, its the bat. That is unless the PDGA wants to buy all of the discs used for play and give them to the players, then its the same.

I know some of you are thinking,, athletes cheating at sports, no,,, no way,,,, it cant be true.
Now tell me the ref didnt have money on the game or the college players didnt throw a game or shave points.

There were grooved bats and corked bats and players got caught cheating.
Spit balls and sand paper, pitchers have been caught,,, cheating.


Now they have in issue with performance enhancing drugs.
MLB made rules for testing, with procedures and testing equipment and now players are getting caught.

Lance Armstromg and other cyclists got Caught doping!

Olympic athletes,Caught using steriods, stripped of medals!

snowboards using hippie lettuce to get more creative, caught red " bud" handed, kicked out of Olympic village!!

Little league baseball had a kid too old,,, Caught!

Hockey, sticks too curved,,, many caught cheating, with only a 2 minute penalty!

Pro football team, video taping opponents signals,,, caught and fined $750,000.00.

Auto racing has rules for different classes and they always get caught,, cheating!

golf has had players with square grooves and using other nonconforming equipment,,, caught and DQ'ed

High school football usually has a player or 2 in each city declared in ineligible because he doesn't live in the district or his grades are too low,,, players and schools caught cheating together.

College football and basketball, my god,,, endless amounts recruiting violations, paying players,,,,caught and still cheating.

This list can and will go on and on!!!
The point is, whether the cheating is intentional or unintentional, its not fair for those who are not cheating and playing by the rules.

So guess how all of these cheaters get caught?
They have rules, test methods and procedures and they try to enforce them with the rules that govern the rules.
In most cases above the Athletes are caught, because they are the ones cheating to gain the advantage!

As the money goes up in Disc golf the possibility of
a player using a disc that is nonconforming will also go up, especially if its giving him some sort of an advantage.

We know players foot foul, mark the lie on the wrong side of the disc, record wrong scores, mark Ob shots closer to the holes or in better locations.
If they do all of this and we are watching, just think of what can and will be done if we are not. ( like not ever checking their discs)

Does it matter if its intentional or on purpose?
Not too me.

Do we really want the players to be responsible??
Well,,, they're the ones using the discs.


Will testing and enforcing the rules on the players be necessary?
YES,,,eventually!

will checking the discs help assure discs used for play are fair from competitor to competitor?
Hopefully!

Do we have to start checking players discs tomorrow?
no, but down the road,,, yes!

is the time to think about now or down the road???



Steve or Jamie??
I'm just going where the conversation goes at this point.

I don't believe that Lance Armstrong was ever caught doping no matter how much the Europeans wanted to. ;)

So a disc manufacturer/sponsor wants some volunteer TD out there to ding a nameless "top pro" because the sponsor don't have the cahotes to tell this nameless "top pro" that they can't have that overweight disc because it's illegal?! :mad:

Say your top professional player asks for a disc who's max weight is 175, and they want it at 180, or say it's a putter and the max weight is 180 and they want a 190. Are you going to tell this top pro, who is out there helping promote your company no? What if that was one of their stipulations for signing with you over another company, that they had to have specific weighted discs, no matter if they were above weight or not?

Is said manufacturer supposed to take the hit to their revenue from that player pushing their product by not signing, or pissing off that player? Or just make that player the discs they want, and reap the benefits of the publicity for the company that that player makes?




Players that knowingly play in PDGA events with overweight discs are cheating. Who would want a cheater to represent their company?

No INNOVA sponsored player has ever made this kind of request. If any sponsored player were to ask for an overweight disc, they would be immediately removed from the team.

I find the following statement / question amazing and quite disconcerting...

"Say your top professional player asks for a disc who's max weight is 175, and they want it at 180, or say it's a putter and the max weight is 180 and they want a 190. Are you going to tell this top pro, who is out there helping promote your company no?" To this question, I would answer "YES"! I WOULD tell him "NO". At least no discs that would be stamped "PDGA approved". Give him all the overweight unstamped discs he wants (...but he shouldn't be allowed to use them in competition).

As for manufacturers 'knowing the weights of the discs when they leave the door, but not when they're being used', you guys know your plastics...if one (disc) can "absorb" 6g of the heaviest water/dirt/metal-filings/gunk combination possible, and the upper limit for that disc is 177g, then your target for "max" disc is 171g. That's it! No more! You then CAN state that, at least weight-wise/pre any post-modification, your disc IS able to be used in PDGA events.

Note that both these points run into a glitch if and when our sport ever becomes popular enough to have other companies "copy" our present discs (patent infringement/outlaw copies, etc.) and change the specs., etc...but we're not there yet! ;)

Karl

You mean my 'Roac' isn't legal? ;)

So this might be slight thread drift, or open a whole other can of worms, but I'm curious...

Say a disc is manufactured in City A in a dry climate then shipped/sold/used in City B across the country in a humid climate. Would the disc's mass vary significantly at the two locations because of the different climates? Dave, any thoughts/experiences?

nanook

**Oops! Karl posted while I was typing...**

Yes, and that's exactly why at-event testing equipment is necessary. Just because a disc was conforming when it left the factory, when a player bought it, and when he got on a plane to the event doesn't necessarily mean it is conforming when he is throwing it an a PDGA-sanctioned event, which is the only time that it even needs to be.

I don't believe that Lance Armstrong was ever caught doping no matter how much the Europeans wanted to. ;)

So a disc manufacturer/sponsor wants some volunteer TD out there to ding a nameless "top pro" because the sponsor don't have the cahotes to tell this nameless "top pro" that they can't have that overweight disc because it's illegal?! :mad:



No in fact because over weight discs can get out,
We strongly encourage our sponsored players to check and double check the weight of their discs.

Say your top professional player asks for a disc who's max weight is 175, and they want it at 180, or say it's a putter and the max weight is 180 and they want a 190. Are you going to tell this top pro, who is out there helping promote your company no? What if that was one of their stipulations for signing with you over another company, that they had to have specific weighted discs, no matter if they were above weight or not?

Is said manufacturer supposed to take the hit to their revenue from that player pushing their product by not signing, or pissing off that player? Or just make that player the discs they want, and reap the benefits of the publicity for the company that that player makes?




Players that knowingly play in PDGA events with overweight discs are cheating. Who would want a cheater to represent their company?

No INNOVA sponsored player has ever made this kind of request. If any sponsored player were to ask for an overweight disc, they would be immediately removed from the team.


does this mean that Innova team members do not have discs that are too heavy or too stiff?
Of course not.
If they have them and use them in pdga events is it Innovas fault?
Of course not.

Yes, and that's exactly why at-event testing equipment is necessary. Just because a disc was conforming when it left the factory, when a player bought it, and when he got on a plane to the event doesn't necessarily mean it is conforming when he is throwing it an a PDGA-sanctioned event, which is the only time that it even needs to be.



Or that is why there needs to be tolerances that are acceptable.

So this might be slight thread drift, or open a whole other can of worms, but I'm curious...

Say a disc is manufactured in City A in a dry climate then shipped/sold/used in City B across the country in a humid climate. Would the disc's mass vary significantly at the two locations because of the different climates? Dave, any thoughts/experiences?

nanook

**Oops! Karl posted while I was typing...**



yes,
depending on whether or not the polymer is hygroscopic.


want to check to see how much?
Call someone in the technical department at Bayer and ask them what is the maximum a part made from a 95 A shore polyester based TPU polymer could increase in weight, because of moisture, after its manufactured with that material .

we already have a built in tolerance. its the max weight of the minus however much variance you have in your mfg process.
if your mold is allowed to weigh 183.7 and you know you can be within 3 grams, then set max weight for 180.7.

might that mean you cant produce as many true-max weights? yes. so mfgs who get better control over their processes could be expected to reap some benefits from that type of improvement.

creating a fixed tolerance wont do anything except penalize those mfgs who figure out how to produce discs more consistently and how to reduce the tolerances they need.

"No INNOVA sponsored player has ever made this kind of request. If any sponsored player were to ask for an overweight disc, they would be immediately removed from the team. "

we do know that overweight discs are marked incorrectly and shipped. just last season a tippy top pro called a TD to ask that the event be held up so he could make his tee time. certain rules almost never get called. given our disc golf culture and actual observed behaviour, i doubt any mfg has a policy that is that hyper-moral.

the governing body does little to shift the tide towards responsibility and fairness - even while many muse about what it means to be a "professional" player, and how to make the "pro" label worth something. never was a solution more plain - start with your equipment.

the governing body does little to shift the tide towards responsibility and fairness - even while many muse about what it means to be a "professional" player, and how to make the "pro" label worth something. never was a solution more plain - start with your equipment.


Can I start an "Impeach Pat Brenner" movement for the high crime/misdemeanor of sensible thinking on the PDGA BOD? You know that sort of behavior just isn't tolerated! :mad:

Getting back to Dave's comments - a question to ponder:

"What should "PDGA Approved" mean when it is on a disc?"

If it doesn't mean that the disc conforms to PDGA technical standards, then what does it mean?

maybe it Should mean that certain measurements (rim width, height, diameter, flex) of the mold species meet the standards. so if it is stamped PDGA APPROVED then it means the mold species is approved. weight of the individual disc, and post-manufacture modifications, could remain the responsibility of the player. ie, PDGA APPROVED should mean something like "ok, we know that some basic physical characteristics are met by this mold. there are however some other details for which you, the player, must be responsible."

the governing body does little to shift the tide towards responsibility and fairness - even while many muse about what it means to be a "professional" player, and how to make the "pro" label worth something. never was a solution more plain - start with your equipment.



While I disagree on this generalization, the big problem with the solutions being suggested here is that it places the onus on the TD, not the player. The TD will have to provide the testing facility, the testing procedure, the manpower, the arbitration process, the specifications knowledge ("geee Wally, what's the max weight on a Roc or a Zepher again? How much do we have to take temperature into account for a flex test?") and so on in order for on-site testing to work. It just isn't feasible to approach things this way for all but perhaps one or two tournaments. Even for those, the costs and hassles greatly outweigh the benefits. They don't test every bat in Major League Baseball, even though the sport has money we can't even fathom, as the testing procedures can't be accomplished in a manner that is scientific, dependable and non-destructive in a stadium environment. Your basic Major League umpire has neither the lab environment, equipment nor knowledge to pull it off. Yet we think its possible to perform PDGA certification on individual discs in a park on a Saturday morning? Ludicous.

I can't see how making a TDs life harder helps promote the benefits of PDGA sanctioning. Requiring on-site testing would drive out 99% of all TDs. Where is the responsiblility towards the health of the PDGA in that?

The player is already responsivble for his equipment. Discs have to be PDGA certified and not have post production modifications. Elegant, to the point, sufficient.

Its taking about all the restraint I can muster to keep from throwing out an old Randy Wimm line concerning this whole thread.

resources for testing are one of the biggest issues in this discussion. for now, i would only consider this for the very top events, and only a couple/few of those to start. my top candidates would be M events that use tee times, because those allow us to spread out the weigh-in task over time. i'd put four staffed weight stations at the card checkin location, and tell players to report in 10 minutes earlier than before. since its an M, the weigh staff would be association supplied.

the burden of the testing, especially during a 1-2 year testing phase, would be borne completely by the PDGA. there should be no cost to TDs TDs should not be asked/expected to incorporate testing in their events until the process is refined so that it fits in easily with tournament operations. that might be years off, but that shouldnt stop us from getting started.

...time to invest in gram-scales' futures... :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

WIll old fashioned triple beams work or should I use digital? :D

It's a New Age...man...!

:cool:

I can't fathom this being feasible. If such tournament had a tee time in the early morning when the humidity was nearly 100% (dew on the grass), how would you account for the variable? What if a disc passes on one scale but not another? What if it is windy that day? What if its raining and people have been practicing with their discs? Are you going to provide washing and drying stations?

You might be able to pull off if you are only going after the grossly overweight discs (3 grams or more). But try and pulll someone's prize 8x Roc out of their bag because an unscientific 'lab' without the necessary environmental controls weights it at 180.5 grams, and there is going to be a problem.

Perhaps we have better things to do with PDGA resources than to chase this.

if it doesnt have rules and standards that are enforceable, then what does a sanctioning body have going for it?

calibration is also something of concern. triple beams can be calibrated - Dave says those are easier to deal with than electronics. my years in chem school tell me that calibration is not the reason this would fail.

its easy to find reasons this would be hard. the problem is that it is obvious that it is necessary. i expect the PDGA to demonstate leadership on this topic - it must, as the sanctioning body, and as the organization assigned to govern the integrity of the game.

I would rather see a rules knowing official follow every group around the course and call all the fouls and missed rules for the groups then to sit and weigh disc that should be manufactured controlled.

What we need is video playback on every shot and a ref to review all these foot faults and illegal jump putts.

you all really think it would be best to de-certify an entire mold if a certain number of illegal weights get into the market?

i'm fine with that - the goal to require at event testing - it is to get rid of the overweight discs.

who wants to call innova and revoke the destroyer mold's approval? (pick whatever mfg and mold ya want). why should we penalize ALL players because the mfg kept producing out of spec discs.

hey, if the consensus is to revoke an approval when X number of discs are found that are out of spec, then cool we are working towards the same final result - fairness in play. but if you thought it was harder to pull one overweight Roc from one players bag after it fails the weight test on certified scales, then how hard will it be to pull ALL Rocs from ALL bags because of a test that was run on some discs bought at random?

The sanctioning body has rules that are enforceable just like baseball does. In order to stamp a disc with "PDGA approved", the disc must meet the specs within a given tolerance. If a manufacturer won't meet these specs, the approval for the model can be pulled. If someone has evidence of somebody using an out of spec disc or non-approved disc, they can alert the officials and the disc could be tested in a controlled lab at a later date (or checked to make sure it is an approved mold on site). Its no different than the process used for baseball or ball golf.

We are also talking about plastic here. Material that over time changes. I would venture to say that some of my older discs aren't as flexible as they once were. The physical properties of plastic changes over time, and its really no big deal unless someone makes it so for some self-serving reason.

Getting back to Dave's comments - a question to ponder:

"What should "PDGA Approved" mean when it is on a disc?"

If it doesn't mean that the disc conforms to PDGA technical standards, then what does it mean?



It means its engraved in the mold.

It is not mandatory to have pdga approved on the discs, but by making it part of the rules it could be part of the solution. There is still one problem, about 10 million discs have been made and sold, with a % of them non conforming.

As I mentioned, putting PDGA approved with a date would curb the amount of non forming discs produced from here on out, but certainly not eliminate them.

What about the nonconforming discs made before the date?
If they are never going to get checked, how would you know?

Most of this discussion probably needs to take place among the top players or at least those who strive to be competitive at the highest level.

Have any players rated over 1000 commented on this thread yet?

The question I have for 1000 rated players is;
Do they care if there opponents are using non conforming discs?

I guess if the top players don't care, why should anyone else?

But if they do care, what good would it do to check a disc on a shelf somewhere and not the discs being used at events?


This is just a discussion for now, chance of anything ever coming from it may be slim to none.
But it surely doesn't hurt to open ones eyes, about something that I see as a potential problem, for the PDGA.

Maybe we can just shoot for checking the discs at the am and pro worlds this year for now.

This will keep TD's from having to worry what to do or how to do it, until something gets worked out.

Until then any player that wants to make sure THEY are playing by the rules, can just check their equipment themselves, to make sure their discs are conforming!

Steve's ( from Quest) point about players asking manufactures for heavy weight discs was a good one, but for him it was hypothetical as they are not sponsoring players at this point.
What really happens is sponsored players search high and low for certain models of older runs. These discs are usually stiffer and a lot more durable.
While they don't ask their sponsors for them, they certainly look hard for them and pay big money when they find them.

Could the reason be these discs perform better when they are less flexible??

Let me begin by saying NO! I don't care about enforcing the weight limit on discs.

Whew! Now that we have that issue of our hands can we talk about something that actually matters?

Oh wait, I just found out that Mickey Mouse is using 177 gr discs and whooping my backside! It must be those extra three grams that are the difference.

YAWN!

We're starting to sound like the government. Rules for rules for rules.

First, Dave you're obviously a smart guy, but if you think moving the max weight to 180 is going to make any difference you're fooling yourself. Players will convince themselves that those extra grams actually will turn them from a 920 Pro to a 990 Pro and go looking for max weight discs. Manufacturers will bump up their average weight and you'll be right back where you started.

I've yet to see any player dominate or have some real advantage based on the small amount of overage that we see present here. If you really want to get discs below 174 then lower the weight limit to 171 and you'll accomplish that goal. Plus, you'll have all the fun of listening to the rules nuts lose it over all the guys using "over-weight" discs...

tim what self-serving reason could there be to enforce the weight rule? i would guess the mfgs would rather we dont enforce it, since they seem to complain that they cant meet even the tolerances alreadhy built in. if anything, producers of overweight discs, and the players who use them, are the ones with a self-serving interest to protect.

Player A, who doesn't like Player B, claims he is carrying overweight discs and makes a stink so that Player A's favorite Roc has to be sent to a lab for verification. Since the process takes more than two days, Player A is without the disc for the weekend tournament that Player B is also in .......

Player A wants to get into Player B's head, and knows that he carries KC 8X rocs that only came in 179 and 180gm weights. He claims the discs are overweight to TD Joe, who has a cheap scale that was last calibrated in the Eisenhower administration, and if nothing else keeps Player B from his normal round preparation .....

Manufacturer B knows that Manufacturer A's 'Duraquazi' plastic can be very hygroscopic and hard to control in a mold, making it possible that many of the discs that are max weight when leaving the company may be overweight on a given Saturday morning. In order to possibly create a scene, .......

Yawn................

weight limits were first arbitrarily applied as a safety measure, correct? what scientific basis was there for this other than someone stating the obvious fact that a heavier disc moving at the same speed carries more force on impact? a 150 gram disc could kill a small child just as a 200 gram disc could, it just might not take their head all the way off.

...so, when the pdga tells the manufacturers to stop letting overweight discs out of the door and starts mandating the weighing of discs at events how long will it take the manufacturers to collectively decide that it would be more cost-effective to throw some $ at starting another tour than to grind up/remold all the discs which don't meet the specs? imo it is just one more issue where the ORG has the potential to get too big for its britches.

personally i could care less what discs weigh and i certainly don't want to be burdened with the issue of enforcement as a td. make the limit something like 250 and allow zero tolerance or trash the limits entirely.

Double Yawn!

allow zero tolerance or trash the limits entirely.


My sentiments exactly. If a rule is inherently unenforceable (especially when it seems that many are actively lobbying against even trying to enforce it), then it shouldn't be a rule. If it is to be kept a rule, it should be enforced.

"Don't ask, don't tell" makes disc golf look like a sucker sport.

...Players will convince themselves that those extra grams actually will turn them from a 920 Pro to a 990 Pro and go looking for max weight discs.



Dang! No wonder my rating "plateaued", I only throw drivers in the mid-160s and the heaviest disc in my bag is a 175g Comet. :D

...Players will convince themselves that those extra grams actually will turn them from a 920 Pro to a 990 Pro and go looking for max weight discs.



Dang! No wonder my rating "plateaued", I only throw drivers in the mid-160s and the heaviest disc in my bag is a 175g Comet. :D



Loser! I've got every 176 gram disc ever sold in Houston... :D

I've got every 176 gram disc ever sold in Houston...



Maybe that's why:

Let me begin by saying NO! I don't care about enforcing the weight limit on discs.

:D

I've got every 176 gram disc ever sold in Houston...



Maybe that's why:

Let me begin by saying NO! I don't care about enforcing the weight limit on discs.

:D



Who me? :o

Actually, I weigh every disc I buy (can you say OCD) and don't buy any disc over 174 grms (or 180 for larger discs). Thanks Rick's Darts for having an on-site scale!

If a player can't beat me with a regulation weight disc, they won't be able to beat me with an overweight disc. I really don't care about disc weight. There are bigger fish to fry in this sport.

ok, what fish that need frying are bigger?

If a player can't beat me with a regulation weight disc, they won't be able to beat me with an overweight disc. I really don't care about disc weight. There are bigger fish to fry in this sport.


Rich,
Thanks for your participation in the Thread.

Some of us think that rules are meant to be enforced and are giving our reasons why.
I can appreciate anyone that could care less what others are throwing, I would be one of the guys, especially if the rules say, throw whatever you want.
I would be fine if this were the case, but the rules do not say that and I am asking for input on whether or not anyone cares.

I know our sport has other issues, apparently you feel the same.
Would you care to elaborate on the frying of bigger fish,, for possible discussion?

Some players have golf discs that nobody else does, I would like to see rules enforced at the majors and nts, but who would enforce them, with no pay. its tough for people to do anything.
as for the larger fish to fry, I think it's somewhat of a joke that MAJOR tournaments cost $200 in base entry fee...

MAJOR events should be at least $500 base, NTs should go to $200, like NOW!

the PDGA's defense for this is "not as many players would show up" "we need the people" ...no pdga YOU need the people, you don't care what the entry fee as long as you get a measly 5 bucks from everyone of them. and more players would become INTRESTED in playing large events, so there could be a few years where there aren't as many players around.
in 5 there will be another generation of golfers playing, bottom line, I see the pdga as a big disc golf club.
from the perspctive as a young touring pro, Disc Golf has gone NOWHERE in the past 15, and will continue down this path unless some changes are adapted.

Feldberg keeps feeding me this players union talk... who knows if that will ever happen.
PDGA NEEDS CHANGE!
CHANGE IS CONSTANT!
EVOLVE!

Work on getting the money into this game by getting bigger sponsors like Coke, Pepsi, Budweiser and such. A players union can't do much if there is nothing to get. Just my measly $ .02

ZUB!
what i'm saying is sponsors WON'T COME if the cant see $$ IN NUMBERS, large numbers are attractive, last time I checked.You're right, players union wont do jack as far as this topic goes, it will serve other purposes though.

BIGGER ENTRY FEES!

Dude, it's so not bigger entry fees. It's someone scheduling a meeting with Coke, making a great presentation and illustrating where there sponsorship money will go, and every pro benefitting from what will bring more sponsors, more money, more exposure, and better disc golfers. The proposed union would end the sanctioned game IMO, unless of course the sponsors would get on-board, or probably more so the governing body of this sport gets sponsors on board. Higher entry fee's negate all the donators that it is obvious you have taken for granted. If I am wrong, I can live with that.

JonBriscoe is right. It was a safety issue not a competition issue. This was confirmed to me by Dave Dunipace on the message board. He was on the rules committee at the time. Therefore it doesn't really matter to me. I don't make discs, I only buy them. I don't weigh them before I buy them. I don't put the PDGA approved stamp on them. If this is an issue at all, it's between the manufacturers and the PDGA.
And since you asked, I have an "If I were king of Disc Golf" list of things I'd do (weigh every disc isn't on it).

1. Make one day B and C tier tournaments the norm not the exception. If you want to use two days on a particular weekend make Sat. Amateur and Sunday Pros. That way a tournament can support 144-200 players comfortably and raise even more money for the PDGA. This would also allow AMS to play with Pros on Sunday or make up a gallery to watch the Pros. Last year I played eight, one day tournaments and three, two day tournaments. And guess what? The best player still wins those one day tournaments.
2. Make every pro pass the Officials test.
3. Give PDGA members the right of first refusal pertaining to tournament sign ups. Give non-members the last week before a tournament to fight for the remaining spots.
3a. Give all of the entry fee money from non-members to the pro payout. I'm really starting to get sick of seeing an AM2 get a basket and a stack of discs for shooting a +12 I don't care how many players were in their division.
4. Limit worlds to four days to help cut a player's expenses. If the US Open or the Masters can be decided in four days, I think our World Championships could do the same.
5. Have a Worlds on the west coast for god's sake. California has the most PDGA members and we're rewarded by making us travel at least 2000 miles to a Worlds (Flagstaff during monsoon season being the exception). And California players still do really well.
6. Marketing. I say embrace the counter culture spirit of the sport. It will never be ball golf and we shouldn't try to be. It's a square hole and we are a round peg. We need to go after the Jackass generation. It should be marketed as the opposite of ball golf. Yelling, screaming, taunting, funky clothes, crazy hair. Whatever it takes to get advertisers to notice. If a company would pay for an ad on "Flava of Love" they would certainly want to be part of "Not you father's golf."

Enough for now.

JonBiscoe is right. It was a safety issue not a competition issue. This was confirmed to me by Dave Dunipace on the message board. He was on the rules committee at the time. Therefore it doesn't really matter to me. I don't make discs, I only buy them. I don't weigh them before I buy them. I don't put the PDGA approved stamp on them. If this is an issue at all, it's between the manufacturers and the PDGA.
And since you asked, I have an "If I were king of Disc Golf" list of things I'd do (weigh every disc isn't on it).

1. Make one day B and C tier tournaments the norm not the exception. If you want to use two days on a particular weekend make Sat. Amateur and Sunday Pros. That way a tournament can support 144-200 players comfortably and raise even more money for the PDGA. This would also allow AMS to play with Pros on Sunday or make up a gallery to watch the Pros. Last year I played eight, one day tournaments and three, two day tournaments. And guess what? The best player still wins those one day tournaments.
2. Make every pro pass the Officials test.
3. Give PDGA members the right of first refusal pertaining to tournament sign ups. Give non-members the last week before a tournament to fight for the remaining spots.
3a. Give all of the entry fee money from non-members to the pro payout. I'm really starting to get sick of seeing an AM2 get a basket and a stack of discs for shooting a +12 I don't care how many players were in their division.
4. Limit worlds to four days to help cut a player's expenses. If the US Open or the Masters can be decided in four days, I think our World Championships could do the same.
5. Have a Worlds on the west coast for god's sake. California has the most PDGA members and we're rewarded by making us travel at least 2000 miles to a Worlds (Flagstaff during monsoon season being the exception). And California players still do really well.
6. Marketing. I say embrace the counter culture spirit of the sport. It will never be ball golf and we shouldn't try to be. It's a square hole and we are a round peg. We need to go after the Jackass generation. It should be marketed as the opposite of ball golf. Yelling, screaming, taunting, funky clothes, crazy hair. Whatever it takes to get advertisers to notice. If a company would pay for an ad on "Flava of Love" they would certainly want to be part of "Not you father's golf."

Enough for now.



Great points!!!
1- RIGHT ON!
2- Idea holds merit and promise
3- YES
3a- He## Yeah! Even though i'm an Am and that'd take away from a potential stack of discs I could win... i agree 110% ... great idea!
4- i'm indifferent but see where this could be good
5- i'm sure if a city/club put together a proposal in Cali it'd get consideration and you'd have a worlds before you knew it.
6- I agree with this one too... theres something to be said for our pros wearing polos and looking 'nice' during tournies and all but some of the ... be like ball golf mentality seems to be taken too far.

weigh before teeoff.
stamp on back of disc indicating passed test..
no discs may be added to the bag during the round.

then it becomes a question of whether the player added a disc or not. much like enforcements of other rules.



Speaking strictly as a TD of 3 B-Tier events last year with 105,144 and 85 players, I have some questions -

Where do TD's and volunteers find the time to weigh every disc? Who will pay for the proper equipment to weigh and measure every disc accurately and fairly?

First - Where do I find the TIME to check 144 player's discs?
Let's assume every player has only 10 discs and it only takes 5 minutes per player to measure and certify each player's discs. It would still take 12 hours for one volunteer to check 1,440 discs. If I had 4 extra volunteers to help (yeah right!!!), it would only take 2 and 1/2 hours to check every player's discs. Does this seem reasonable or feasible?

My simple example assumes it is an easy process, but what about the time spent handling discgruntled players? What about spending time looking up unusual discs or older models? What happens when the player wants to check all 25 discs in their bag, plus the other 20 discs they may want to throw if it rains or they lose one or whatever? What about player's that have discs that didn't pass so they come back again with another 10 or 20 discs? What about players that show up right before the player meeting? For me, this is a time issue first and foremost. Even if this is for only a handful of events, where will the time and volunteers come from to make this happen?

Now let's assume there is unlimited time and volunteers to do this at PDGA events. Here are some more questions:

Where do I get a calibrated scale? Do I get to pay for this out of my pocket, the club's pocket, the player's pockets? Who will pay for regular calibration of the scale? Shouldn't it be certified in some way since I will be making decisions that will affect a player's ability to earn a payout? How will I know if the scale lost calibration during the transport to the event? Let's say I start weighing discs with the only scale I have and at some point during the process it is obvious there is something wrong with the scale. What do I do then? Is the PDGA going to pay to send scales and calipers or templates or whatever? Will the PDGA also pay for the stamp and ink pad to stamp each disc? Once a disc is stamped, is it assumed to be legal for every other event or must it be inspected for each individual event?



I don't think anyone has really responded to Discette's points above. The feasibility of TDs testing discs is probably the biggest problem and probably impossible. Aren't lines long enough at tournaments? I would hate to arrive late and be at the end of a 12 hour line, but I would also hate to be first in line and have to wait in the quarantined section making sure I don't go out to my car for that potentially illegal disc.

I think manufacturers should be responsible for legal discs. I buy a PDGA approved disc, trust the disc is PDGA approved, and trust the weight written on the disc (BY THE MANUFACTURER). I don't want to go into a tournament thinking that maybe one of my discs (that I have been throwing for a year or so) has a wrong weight on it. Now I am not going to be able to throw this disc in a tournament? It is not like I have my own calipers, balances, and flexibility testers at home to verify that my disc is going to be allowed in tournament play. Oh yeah, I should also submerge it in water first to make sure it will still be legal on a wet day. Wow, now it looks like I need to invest in a whole test lab and yearly calibrations.

My point is that I think I am like most. I am not a cheater and I just want to focus on playing in the tournament. How many people are actually out there buying discs and modifying them enough to actually make a POSITIVE IMPROVEMENT, say, to get that extra 10 ft of distance, which means what? 1 stroke per round? Maybe these people are out there, but, speaking for myself, first of all, I am not a cheater, and 2nd I do not want to spend a bunch of time and money to buy multiple copies of the same disc so I can test out different post production modifications to see if I can gain that extra stroke per round. I will spend that time on something more worthwhile, practicing.

BTW - What about random testing of discs?

In the Automotive Emissions Industry, The Environmental Protection Agency pulls a random car off manufacturers' assembly lines every so often to verify that the emissions levels are where the manufacturer says they are. If they fail the EPA tests, then heavy fines are placed on the manufacturer. It provides plenty of incentive keep the manufacturers honest. Why not send a PDGA representative to a Manufacturer's facility to borrow some random discs from the stock room to verify:

1) No mold modifications were made that changed the specifications from the tech standards

2) The weights written on the discs are accurate

Just a thought.

I expect the manufacturer to make sure my disc is PDGA approved!! They stamp the disc as approved, so I do not know how it is possible (OR WHY) each TD would be responsible for checking every disc. When it comes out of the press, I expect it to be legal. It is not the responsibility in any other sports to make sure their equipment is legal. IT COMES THAT WAY WHEN IT IS MADE!!! I know people do not always like the comparison to ball golf, but can you imagine if at every tournament they had to inspect each and every club in a player�s bag!!! The clubs are made to a certain specification and it is the manufacturers job to make sure they are legal. Just as Jeremy said above, it is not our job to make sure our cars pass emissions inspections. This job is for the manufacturers - PERIOD.

Why would a company make a disc that is not legal for use in a tournament? :confused:

Just my two cents.

I expect the manufacturer to make sure my disc is PDGA approved!! They stamp the disc as approved, so I do not know how it is possible (OR WHY) each TD would be responsible for checking every disc. When it comes out of the press, I expect it to be legal. It is not the responsibility in any other sports to make sure their equipment is legal. IT COMES THAT WAY WHEN IT IS MADE!!! I know people do not always like the comparison to ball golf, but can you imagine if at every tournament they had to inspect each and every club in a player�s bag!!! The clubs are made to a certain specification and it is the manufacturers job to make sure they are legal. Just as Jeremy said above, it is not our job to make sure our cars pass emissions inspections. This job is for the manufacturers - PERIOD.

Why would a company make a disc that is not legal for use in a tournament? :confused:

Just my two cents.




One thing with your ball golf comparison, manufacturers in ball golf do not have to send clubs/balls in for approval. There is a list of guidelines they are to follow, and once a new club/ball is made, it is deemed legal until someone challenges the legality. It is then sent in to make sure it isn't illegal. Do players modify their clubs to make them hit further, straighter? I have no clue.

And to the emissions for cars, after a certain time period, it is up to the driver, not the manufacturer, to make sure it passes emissions. It would be like sending a disc in every year to make sure it is still legal.

I can speak for our company, there is barely any disc that makes it out overweight or illegal in any other way. Maybe 1 out of every 1000+, and that would be a high estimate.

If you want a max weight disc, you might want to keep in mind that it could become overweight relatively easy. As mentioned earlier in this thread, discs can gain/lose weight based on the humidity of the area you are playing in, or just let it soak in water for an extended period of time. I know someone said, well maybe manufacturers should leave a 3 gram leeway to make sure that if they gain moisture, they won't be overweight. The problem with that is players demand max weight discs, and there will be a lot of unhappy customers if no one was making max-weight discs anymore. If players were asking for 170 gram discs, and no one wanted a max weight of 175-176, there wouldn't be any questions on whether discs were overweight.

I expect the manufacturer to make sure my disc is PDGA approved!! They stamp the disc as approved, so I do not know how it is possible (OR WHY) each TD would be responsible for checking every disc. When it comes out of the press, I expect it to be legal. It is not the responsibility in any other sports to make sure their equipment is legal. IT COMES THAT WAY WHEN IT IS MADE!!! I know people do not always like the comparison to ball golf, but can you imagine if at every tournament they had to inspect each and every club in a player�s bag!!! The clubs are made to a certain specification and it is the manufacturers job to make sure they are legal. Just as Jeremy said above, it is not our job to make sure our cars pass emissions inspections. This job is for the manufacturers - PERIOD.

Why would a company make a disc that is not legal for use in a tournament? :confused:

Just my two cents.



If the thread was followed from the beginning, you would see that, the potential for future manufactures to make discs that are not intended for pdga play is very probable.
Also players can factor down rim depths to make the discs fly faster.

Maybe you didnt know, they do check every players bag at the pga events.
the players are allowed 14 discs and they get checked at " check in"

Rawlings does make bats that are within the rules but some players got caught putting grooves in them, pine tar up to high and another time there was cork in the middle.

If players really don't care if their competitors could be using illegal discs, I guess this thread can end and we can move on to the more important things. :(

Rich is a smart guy, and he'll beat you with a flick.

HA!

Gregg, I thought you'd like points 3 and 3a after the experience we had trying to get into the Safari!

does an event need HQ approval to institute weight testing?

does a player need HQ approval to call a stance violation?

I know people do not always like the comparison to ball golf, but can you imagine if at every tournament they had to inspect each and every club in a player�s bag!!! The clubs are made to a certain specification and it is the manufacturers job to make sure they are legal.



that is where you are wrong. clubs are inspected. I watched an official first hand check every club in Tiger Woods' and Jim Furyk's bags at the US Open at Oakmont this year before the final round. They had a stick for length that was placed from ground to grip end. Do you realize how easy it is to change a shaft, or add weight to a clubhead, after the club leaves the plant. its legal when it leaves the factory. Now its not.
The same falls into the disc realm. whos to say you didnt shave the bevel, or excessively sand to alter flight, or add that super duper weight adding material thats invisible to the naked eye that was brought up on this board a few months back.

i say weighing for now is a start.

just my --> sense.

I know people do not always like the comparison to ball golf, but can you imagine if at every tournament they had to inspect each and every club in a player�s bag!!! The clubs are made to a certain specification and it is the manufacturers job to make sure they are legal.



that is where you are wrong. clubs are inspected. I watched an official first hand check every club in Tiger Woods' and Jim Furyk's bags at the US Open at Oakmont this year before the final round. They had a stick for length that was placed from ground to grip end. Do you realize how easy it is to change a shaft, or add weight to a clubhead, after the club leaves the plant. its legal when it leaves the factory. Now its not.
The same falls into the disc realm. whos to say you didnt shave the bevel, or excessively sand to alter flight, or add that super duper weight adding material thats invisible to the naked eye that was brought up on this board a few months back.

i say weighing for now is a start.

just my --> sense.



Thanks Josh, your 2 sense are valuable!

I've come to the conclusion that these questions need to be answered in survey form by top pro players, most likely those at least 960 and above.
It seems 890-950 rated players would rather not check their own equipment or be subject to allowing it to be checked either.
to me its all about fairness of competition in the future, with no need for urgency.
If and when rules are made in this area, I would like to see the ability to have them enforced, with procedures for doing so and the penalties for the player if they are in violation.

It appears some players posting here think this should fall entirely on the manufactures, which as you stated, even if a disc leaves the factory in spec it can be altered to become non conforming.

so while waiting on hold for merchant services I have a little time to come up with my question's of the day;\

Lets say,,,,, BIG Corporate Company-X who has no plans on marketing their discs for use in PDGA events, starts producing 20CM discs that only have 4% rim depth and these babies are flying far. Very far for those with less power and are in great demand by the golfers who do not plan on playing in PDGA events..
Lets say BCC-X gets into custom stamping and a disc golf club gets some of these discs stamped with the club logo. They also get PDGA approved discs made with the same logo that looks and feels similar to the BCC-X disc, in fact its hard to tell the difference without measuring them.

Do you think there is a chance that one day the BCC-X discs may be in a players bag and used in PDGA competition?

If the discs are never going to be checked at the events and only on shelves of stores and there are no gauges, scales or templates, who's going to know?

This brings me back to previous question;
Regardless of the ("who's responsible"), hows, whys and whens;
Does anyone care whether their opponents are using non conforming discs or not?
If the overall general consensus of the membership is NO ( which I highly doubt) than I am apparently barking up the wrong tree!

"""""sounds of Crickets chirping""""

so while waiting on hold for merchant services I have a little time to come up with my question's of the day;\

Lets say,,,,, BIG Corporate Company-X who has no plans on marketing their discs for use in PDGA events, starts producing 20CM discs that only have 4% rim depth and these babies are flying far. Very far for those with less power and are in great demand by the golfers who do not plan on playing in PDGA events..
Lets say BCC-X gets into custom stamping and a disc golf club gets some of these discs stamped with the club logo. They also get PDGA approved discs made with the same logo that looks and feels similar to the BCC-X disc, in fact its hard to tell the difference without measuring them.

Do you think there is a chance that one day the BCC-X discs may be in a players bag and used in PDGA competition?

If the discs are never going to be checked at the events and only on shelves of stores and there are no gauges, scales or templates, who's going to know?

This brings me back to previous question;
Regardless of the ("who's responsible"), hows, whys and whens;
Does anyone care whether their opponents are using non conforming discs or not?
If the overall general consensus of the membership is NO ( which I highly doubt) than I am apparently barking up the wrong tree!



Why not disallow custom stamps for tournament play? Or at the very least, the name and "PDGA approved" should always be visible. Probably not popular, but feasible.

Make PDGA Approved part of the hotstamp on reg. stamped discs as well as on the bottom so you'll know either way, esp. if it's custom stamped.

"""""sounds of Crickets chirping""""



may have answered your own qestion... not sure. I'm personally not too worried about it. Most folks I know wouldn't play with something if they knew it was illegal, and if they're knowingly doing it, they're probably not much of a player to begin with. Just one opinion, but personally don't see it being a big deal. Enforcement of "rules of play" is a bigger issue with me, meaning I wish they were enforced more often and without so much greif given by the offenders.

All I know, or think anyways, is that when I lose I'm pretty sure it's because someone else played better than me.
I also like to think that at the few tourneys I've been in that my fellow golfers had the same opportunities to learn the discs and when Soandso throws disc X farther than my disc X it's because it was a better shot, not because his disc X had some illegal mojo going on.

I just cant bring myself to think that someone using a disc deemed "illegal" for any reason ( and I mean what we are referring to here.. not like.. an Aerobie vs a turbo-putter for driving ) is going to be the difference to weather I win or lose or effect my fun level out there.

Another example.. I was at a tourney last year with a guy using a turbo-putter. I know it was pdga approved, then wasnt.. not sure on its status right now.
If he was making every single putt from all over the place I would probably think different, but he wasnt. he made some decent putts, he missed some. so I think it was the player that made the difference moreso than his disc.
I'm sure the POV for a pro lvl tourney might be different. is that more what we are looking at this for?

Does that mean I don't care? not about discs themselves so much.
i would have to agree with playtowin moreso.."rules of play" enforcement would be more important to me as well.

just my 2 cents.

These are good points made about enforcing the rules of play and at some point an issue that will also need to be addressed.

While it seems others agree that non conforming discs still need to be thrown well, our TSC and Board just passed new rules that govern the discs used for play, because they felt it was important.
If there was such a need to make the new rules for the discs, I figured there was a need to make rules, to be able to enforce these new rules.
Today the rules and procedures for enforcing rules on the discs used for play are vary vague, to say the least.

I certainly didn't start this discussion to add any additional burden to a PDGA TD and feel we should start at USDGC and players cup, where roll starts are used.
I would think worlds should also require the "checking in of equipment" that is to be used in play!
Theres a good chance that these are the only events where discs will ever get checked. If so, at least it's a start.

that would be a great start for many reasons, most of which, it wouldn't be taking too much on at one time.

this is the answer:


BYLAWS
OF
PROFESSIONAL DISC GOLF ASSOCIATION
ARTICLE I
PURPOSES
1.1 PURPOSE. The purpose for which the Corporation is formed is the promotion
and governance of the sport of disc golf. In particular, the purposes of the Corporation include:
1.1.1 to promote the development of disc golf as a means of healthful
recreation and physical fitness;
1.1.2 to establish and maintain rules of play and high standards of
professionalism, amateurism and good sportsmanship;
1.1.3 to foster national and international professional and amateur disc
golf tournaments and competitions;
1.1.4 to communicate event results, opinions and other information
beneficial to the sport via electronic and printed media; and
1.1.5 to achieve standardizationin the Rules of Play, equipment used
for play, tournament formats and all other aspects of the sport of disc golf.


the ByLaws are the marching orders. polls and posts are great input, but when its time to decide, we either pursue the objectives of the ByLaws, or we dont. not instituting at least a minimal, proof-of-concept at-event testing program would be to abdicate the instruction of the ByLaws, and therefore the wishes of the Members who adopted those ByLaws.

http://img5.glowfoto.com/images/2008/01/18-2040387251T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=18-204038L&y=2008&m=01&t=jpg&rand=7251&srv=img5)

are you mocking my brilliant opinion pat with bylaws? lol I hear what yer yappin' 'bout, just kidding, but starting out with a couple big events to try it out isn't hurting any bylaws.

this is the answer:


BYLAWS
OF
PROFESSIONAL DISC GOLF ASSOCIATION
ARTICLE I
PURPOSES
1.1 PURPOSE. The purpose for which the Corporation is formed is the promotion
and governance of the sport of disc golf. In particular, the purposes of the Corporation include:
1.1.1 to promote the development of disc golf as a means of healthful
recreation and physical fitness;
1.1.2 to establish and maintain rules of play and high standards of
professionalism, amateurism and good sportsmanship;
1.1.3 to foster national and international professional and amateur disc
golf tournaments and competitions;
1.1.4 to communicate event results, opinions and other information
beneficial to the sport via electronic and printed media; and
1.1.5 to achieve standardizationin the Rules of Play, equipment used
for play, tournament formats and all other aspects of the sport of disc golf.


the ByLaws are the marching orders. polls and posts are great input, but when its time to decide, we either pursue the objectives of the ByLaws, or we dont. not instituting at least a minimal, proof-of-concept at-event testing program would be to abdicate the instruction of the ByLaws, and therefore the wishes of the Members who adopted those By-Laws.



WOW,,,,
Wish I would have known this while I was emailing the TSC when they asked for my opinion. ( and before the new rules went into effect).

Without testing the discs used in the events, there's really no way to achieve standardization.

I personally think this is a non-issue but I am realistic enough to know that there will be some people that will look for a way to find an edge no matter what the rules.

For the average player the alteration of a disc isn't going to give any real advantage. I am not saying that cheating should be ignored within the Am ranks but it would have a much bigger impact on a Pro's game.

How about a simpler solution? Instead of checking every disc before a tournament, how about checking the disc a player uses post-tournament? It could even be specified that any disc removed from the bag during play must be included in the inspection. Testing could be done on only the players that finished in the money. This would significantly reduce the time required and the number of disc checked.

Maybe do only NT's and majors at first since that is where the most money can be won which increases the chances of cheating.

Hopefully this would set an example that would filter down to the Am's and encourage fair play by everyone.

for me, the biggest advantage pre-event testing has over post-event is that pre-event is a postive, "lets make sure you stay out of trouble" thing, while post-event is a negative "now we're gonna have to punish you" thing.

for me, the biggest advantage pre-event testing has over post-event is that pre-event is a positive, "lets make sure you stay out of trouble" thing, while post-event is a negative "now we're gonna have to punish you" thing.




Agreed and one of my points to this thread:

Lets say there was a post event testing, what is the current penalty?

2 strokes for each hole carried or used?
Then what? Keep testing players discs until everyone with conforming discs is paid?

Of course players will claim they didn't know their discs were non conforming.
Is ignorance a legitimate excuse for using a non conforming disc?????
It doesn't work with the law, so why should it here?

We are going to need to do some voluntary testing for a season or so before we start dishing out penalties, but I'm convinced its something we should start thinking about now!

I keep asking myself why you, a disc manufacturer, would insist on beating this dead horse. Maybe, you failed to notice the posts that mentioned that the reason for the disc size to weight ratio was a safety, not a competition issue. You also haven�t seemed to notice that none of the dissenters believe that they are losing to any player because of an overweight disc.

I don�t believe that you are really concerned about safety, I have a Speed Demon that is as flexible as a ceramic tile with the sharpest edge of any disc I own.

I don�t think that you believe that anyone with an overweight disc has a competitive advantage over another player. You�re just saying, �it�s a rule and we should enforce it,� without really considering the logistical problems of enforcement. A little like the war on drugs.

While you are correct it is a rule and rules should be enforced, it is perhaps an example of a rule that has passed it�s usefulness. Like, for example, in Montana, seven or more Indians are considered a raiding or war party and it is legal to shoot them. This isn�t something that is considered a contemporary necessitity.

Maybe you did read the rebuttals and chose to ignore them for these reasons.

1) You happen to know of some overweight Innova discs in circulation (I have yet to see an overweight Discraft disc) and perhaps you feel that if you knock your competitors down a notch, it moves you up a bit. This schoolyard bully tactic never works and never will. I happen to have evidence in my garage (where it will stay until someone trades me that bag of Doritos for it) that your company isn�t above producing an illegal disc (a 21.2cm /179 gm Diablo DT).

2) You may be upset that some discs produced by your company (or sister company) have been found to be unsuitable for PDGA use and you want to stand up and say, �But what about Innova their discs are too heavy!� Blah, Blah, Blah. No one cares. In my opinion there is a big difference between a disc that happens to be a gram overweight and a disc called a Wheel that actually looks like a wheel or the Turbo Putt by Spacely�s Sprockets.

There is an additional problem with enforcement. It is legal to change out the discs you carry during a round. A player could easily display their bag of discs for approval then, after the round starts, they swap out for the untested and perhaps illegal discs. You mat say that every player's disc must be checked. Now you are talking about testing 40-50 discs per player. At a big tournament that's 10,000 discs. Come on! Ridiculous.

This should be between the PDGA and the manufacturers. You cannot punish the players. The only thing the players have done wrong is trusting that a disc that says,"PDGA APPROVED" is PDGA approved. We're not making these discs at home.

Now stop bugging us about this and take it up with the other disc companies, please.

Technically, all black discs are illegal discs because there is no way to uniquely mark them for identification without a pen which produces a detectable thickness. Should we enforce it, IT'S A RULE for god's sake! Of course not.

well said rich.

rich, some players dont want to be responsible for much. they dont want to be responsible for foot-faults. they dont want to be responsible for getting to their round on time. they dont want to be responsible for they equipment they use. where/when does it end? do you want a sport or do you want organized chaos? if its chaos, then change the mission statement and the bylaws to remove the emphasis on standardization and fairness of play. until then please lets not attack those who are considering following those documents.

is there a manfacturer component? absolutely. this mfg is notorious for flex problems, that for wieght. part of the solution is cetainly to hold the mfgs to task when they release discs that are illegal for szsanctioned play but have the PDGA stamp.

how would you rein in the mfgs? the engraving goes on when the disc is made, so a disc that comes out heavy is gonna have the "approved" label. are you suggesting that we require each disc be fully tested before the mfg can put the PDGA Approved mark on it? how else could we do it?

while i believe the player does and should have a responsibility to use legal equipment, i agree part of the solution involves mfgs. can you offer some thoughts on how to solve it by working with the mfgs?

Technically, all black discs are illegal discs because there is no way to uniquely mark them for identification without a pen which produces a detectable thickness.



An aside: I know this is picking nits, but I use a pen with silver or gold ink on black discs. It shows up just fine. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion...

nanook

I think this thread is starting to take the same wrong turn that it did 3 or so pages ago....

I dont feel like he is advicating for wholesale testing of all discs at all sanctioned events...

I do feel like he is advicating policies and procedures be put in place in the event that a disc does need to be tested...

I do think he just wants to raise awareness of potential issues in the future. I really dont read anything else into it.

Rich,
There is no ill intent towards any other manufacturer or some big sneaky master plan to knock anyone down a notch.
This is about " what could and will eventually happen to the future of "competitive PDGA disc golf ".
After all, isnt one of the goals to be the most professional association that governs competitive play???

I have suggested a voluntary testing period of 2 or more years, before any punishment would take place.
If I'm not mistaken, only players with nonconforming equipment could ever be punished.
If, after a few years, a player chooses to not test his/her own equipment and rely solely on the manufacturer of their choice, thats up to them. This in no way should exclude them from knowing whether or not their equipment is within the rules of play.


I think I stand quite clear, that the Turbo Putter should have never been pdga approved and made several attempts over the past few years to head the potential problem off at the pass. I tried to encourage tightening up the TS for the discs before something like this could happened. The release of the Epic opened my eyes to the fact that there were serious loopholes in our rules for discs used in play and I wanted to protect the integrity of what I felt constituted the shapes of the discs we were going to play with in the future.

In the spring of 2004 I initiated a discussion between Dave D, Jim K and I ( facilitated through me) on shape, weight, flex and wing length.
This 3 way discussion has went off and on for the
last 4 years, so I would say you're a little off base in assuming this is an attempt to slander for personal or company gain. If so, I certainly would not have included either of them in my efforts.

So let me get this straight;
We want to be called professional as players and as an association, but not be held to the standards of having the equipment used in the events checked,,,,,, ever???

Not even at worlds??
****AND,,,As far as bugging you goes, I hope your joking!
You log on to the internet, click pdga, click discussion, choose to read this thread, read my posts and then accuse me of bugging you and other people.

Gimme a break,,,
If you feel this way, man you sure go through a lot of work your self for me to bug you.

If I were a top pro player would my opinion on this topic have more merit???

Maybe it would be easier to change the pdga by-laws then check players discs, should we do that instead??

Tying the bylaws into this debate is inaccurate, misleading and simply playing on emotions. Please stop. It is an interpretation that some are trying to manipulate into an absolute truth, and ranks right up there with "either you're for the war or you're unpatriotic." I can just as easily interpret that our existing practices and policies is totally consistent with the bylaws (demanding that manufacturers produce compliant disc, making players only compete with approved models without post production modifications).

Again, please stop.

Technically, all black discs are illegal discs because there is no way to uniquely mark them for identification without a pen which produces a detectable thickness.



An aside: I know this is picking nits, but I use a pen with silver or gold ink on black discs. It shows up just fine. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion...

nanook



If it is silver or gold it is paint and has a detectable thickness. According to the rules a detectable thickness on your disc is illegal.

if it is totally consistant then how come theres lots of illegal discs out there? i am not trying to get illegal discs out of the market - i am trying to get them out of PDGA-sanctioned play. that to me is very consistent with our associations stated objectives, and the ByLaws and Mission Statement.

"Tying the bylaws into this debate is inaccurate, misleading and simply playing on emotions. " are you serious? the ByLaws are what we turn to when we need guidance. they are the most fundamental direction the Members can provide the organization. if the ByLaws call for something and it is not undertaken, then the BoD has failed.

are you suggesting we disreagrd the ByLaws? those are the final say! even more so than a Member's voice - because the Members chose that documents, with the wording that is in it. The Members already spoke on this issue when they wrote and approved the ByLaws. the ByLaws are a great place to turn for guidance during a passionate debate.

do we really "demand{ing} that manufacturers produce compliant disc"? no, we only "demand" that three discs pass a test. after that, nothing. not even a random check program

"our existing practices and policies {are} totally consistent with the bylaws" really? the ByLaws and the Mission Statement stress standardization. presumably that includes making sure rules are followed. meaning testing. testing discs is the same as observing your card-mate's footwaork.

"making players only compete with approved models without post production modifications". this might be right, not sure... but where does it absolve the player from any responsibility? if it truy does say "approved MODEL" and not "LEGAL DISC" then that is a great place to start with the next set of changes.

if i buy an automobile approved for use in the US, how come i need to get it inspected every year? after all, the mfg had it approved. why do we bother the poor driver? if i get caught with a problem, they're giving me the ticket, not the mfg.

likewise, if i speed, i get the ticket, not the mfg who designed a car to go faster than 55.

I would have absolutely no problem showing up to Bowling Green AMs or Worlds and having all my discs weighed/checked. What would be the big deal?

I don't see why any player would object.

People running events may have an objection...

I would have absolutely no problem showing up to Bowling Green AMs or Worlds and having all my discs weighed/checked. What would be the big deal?

I just think that it would be a pain for the people running the event is all...

Would you like to wait 4 hours for all of the discs to be checked?

Technically, all black discs are illegal discs because there is no way to uniquely mark them for identification without a pen which produces a detectable thickness.



An aside: I know this is picking nits, but I use a pen with silver or gold ink on black discs. It shows up just fine. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion...

nanook



If it is silver or gold it is paint and has a detectable thickness. According to the rules a detectable thickness on your disc is illegal.




Our good friends at Sharpie make gold and silver markers using ink, not paint.

That part of it is really a non-issue at this point. I am sure that the mechanics of it could be worked out.

Is that your only objection then? A streamlined process?

I would have absolutely no problem showing up to Bowling Green AMs or Worlds and having all my discs weighed/checked. What would be the big deal?

I just think that it would be a pain for the people running the event is all...

Would you like to wait 4 hours for all of the discs to be checked?



Rich, that objection was raised long ago. we heard it, really. thats why :

1. we're not talking about testing at every event; only the top 2-3 at most;
2. we're discussing a 1-2 year voluntary/trial period to get the kinks worked out - even for the few events that will need this testing;
3. we're talking about eliminating the impact on TDs and Staff by using PDGA supplied resources at these showcase events.

seems to me we ARE trying to listen to the ideas and come up with ways around the stickiest problems y'all identify. seems like we are doing pretty good - please keep the three points above in mind.

Concerning gold and silver Sharpies: It's not ink, it's paint. It doesn't soak into the plastic. Therefore it remains on the surface like paint which is illegal.
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i16/mikeinjc/deadhorse.jpg
I am done with this thread.

cool! the sharpie has been banned from players bags, but 210g ROCs are groovy, no questions asked.

god, i love this sport :)

This whole thing has gotten exaggerated to the point of being ridiculous. '210 g Rocs', 'theres lots of illegal discs', 'easier to change the pdga by-laws then check players discs, should we do that instead', tying disc testing to automotive emmission testing and so on. Good grief, might as well bring up that its contributing to global warming.

If your current windmill is trying to pull a 176gm disc out of someone's bag using a non-lab environment testing facility, then I guess go for it. But if you are going to use PDGA resources, please have the respect and courtesy that you demand at other times and let the membership have a voice as to whether we feel the funds are being spent wisely. Also, good luck convincing the TD that the efforts required have sufficient payback to anyone but those on this witch hunt. I don't think the competitors have a problem, but feel free to create one if you wish.

The wheels on the bus go round and round .........

yes, they do indeed :) we just spent a ton of resources on new tech standards. why did we bother if we dont use them?

here is what happens if that horse dies

http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/img/standards_deadhorse.jpg

Gee, you should have taken more time. I don't see the demise of the PDGA, overall decline of civilization or the end of the world as we know it depicted in your illustration. Also, you could have wrapped up the horse in the American flag so you could also try to tie patriotism to your cause as well.

We currently have a program set up to randomly audit discs. What modifications should there be with that program?

By the way, I don't think the bondage gear depiction has a place on this board.



I am offended. Not by the depiction but by the fact that I was removed from my naievete by your pointing out it's use. Who are you to remove my blinders and prove to me it's not a happy world out there? I am so ashamed.

<--runs off to find the nearest moderator

We currently have a program set up to randomly audit discs. What modifications should there be with that program?

thats a great question. i have not seen any results or reports from this program, so let me see what those results are.

We currently have a program set up to randomly audit discs. What modifications should there be with that program?


modify it to be able to check the discs that are used in events, not those that are sitting on shelves :D

The pursuit to assure the equipment used in play is fair from player to player, is far from a witch hunt.
If that's what it appears I'm after here, then I may be joining Rich on the sideline of this discussion. :(

Gee, you should have taken more time. I don't see the demise of the PDGA, overall decline of civilization or the end of the world as we know it depicted in your illustration. Also, you could have wrapped up the horse in the American flag so you could also try to tie patriotism to your cause as well.





I think zeitgeist made a "movie" about it too! It's all about some one world government and how horses aren't original, they're actually just big dogs so if you believe it's a real horse you don't know your history!"

Dave M, dont let one or two message board pundits throw you off. its real easy to say why programs wont work and attack ideas with derisive labels. your fundamental question is worth asking, and answering.

I like the idea of weighing @ majors... sounds silly to some maybe but it adds another level to the seriousness of the event and maybe even a little more of that legitimacy brass ring that we're always reaching for.
The first thing I would advocate (for the first year or so) would be for the PDGA to purchase some scales and bring them to some of the major events they show up to (maybe get innova, discraft or others to bring scales if its an event they are sponsoring). This wouldn't be to check the discs and rule them illegal... it would be to let players weigh discs on their own and see how much they are. Give priority to the players but let spectators use it as well.
The reason for this is it would give players a chance to see exactly how much their discs weigh and know for sure if its illegal or not before they get to the point where they can be randomly chosen and weighed.

so basically put it on the players head but give them a chance to figure out what they've got and if its legal first... but if they are carrying a disc that says PDGA approved and its overweight I would think the manufacturer should have some penalty of sorts. The manufacturers could get around throwing away heavy discs by making them x-outs or have a special 'heavyweight' stamp.

to the players (and TD's):

While you are waiting in the weighing lines you will have plenty of time to ponder the meaning of the universe. Here are some questions that might occur to you:
1) Who will vouch for the competence and integrity of the mobile lab?
2) Remember those lines before they had preregistration? Does it take less time to weigh all a players� discs than to register a player?
3) How much weight might your disc have gained because of exposure to damp or humid environments? Does the mobile lab have a drying oven you can use?
4) How will you feel if your disc was disqualified even though it was legal when you weighed it in your own mobile lab before and after the event?
5) Why should a disc that says �PDGA approved� be disapproved by the PDGA?
6) Why should YOU be punished when it happens?
7) Why should you have to pay to have the PDGA make measurements that should have been made by manufacturers?
8) Will the manufacturers be there to replace the discs that flunk?
9) Will they be there to refund the money you paid for the disc, or do you have to send it back to the company?
11) Can you run back to your car and get back in the line with discs to replace the ones that were disqualified.?
12) Can you get discs certified to replace the ones you lost during the round. If so, will someone give you lunch while you are waiting in that line?
13) What time was the first round supposed to start? What time is it now?

to the players (and TD's):

While you are waiting in the weighing lines you will have plenty of time to ponder the meaning of the universe. Here are some questions that might occur to you:
1) Who will vouch for the competence and integrity of the mobile lab?
2) Remember those lines before they had preregistration? Does it take less time to weigh all a players� discs than to register a player?
3) How much weight might your disc have gained because of exposure to damp or humid environments? Does the mobile lab have a drying oven you can use?
4) How will you feel if your disc was disqualified even though it was legal when you weighed it in your own mobile lab before and after the event?
5) Why should a disc that says �PDGA approved� be disapproved by the PDGA?
6) Why should YOU be punished when it happens?
7) Why should you have to pay to have the PDGA make measurements that should have been made by manufacturers?
8) Will the manufacturers be there to replace the discs that flunk?
9) Will they be there to refund the money you paid for the disc, or do you have to send it back to the company?
11) Can you run back to your car and get back in the line with discs to replace the ones that were disqualified.?
12) Can you get discs certified to replace the ones you lost during the round. If so, will someone give you lunch while you are waiting in that line?
13) What time was the first round supposed to start? What time is it now?



Yawn.

Suggestions and procedures would come next, this is to see if we even care in the first place! Remember, this is no witch hunt, just to ensure balanced and fair competition.

5) Why should a disc that says �PDGA approved� be disapproved by the PDGA?
6) Why should YOU be punished when it happens?
8) Will the manufacturers be there to replace the discs that flunk?
9) Will they be there to refund the money you paid for the disc, or do you have to send it back to the company?




What about the PDGA's decision to rescind approval of the Turbo Putter? Next year we might have players throwing this disc (that says PDGA Approved on it) and someone could stroke him for throwing an illegal disc.

"You mean to tell me this disc that says 'PDGA Approved' isn't PDGA Approved!?!?!?!?!?"

Are Marshall Street and all the vendors going to offer refunds when the disc becomes illegal, or will Quest?

5) Why should a disc that says �PDGA approved� be disapproved by the PDGA?
6) Why should YOU be punished when it happens?
8) Will the manufacturers be there to replace the discs that flunk?
9) Will they be there to refund the money you paid for the disc, or do you have to send it back to the company?




What about the PDGA's decision to rescind approval of the Turbo Putter? Next year we might have players throwing this disc (that says PDGA Approved on it) and other players stroking them for throwing an illegal disc.

"You mean to tell me this disc that says 'PDGA Approved' isn't PDGA Approved!?!?!?!?!?"

Are Marshall Street and all the vendors going to offer refunds when the disc becomes illegal, or will Quest?

Yawn.

Suggestions and procedures would come next, this is to see if we even care in the first place! Remember, this is no witch hunt, just to ensure balanced and fair competition.



I think Mr. Shive's point is that it does nothing to ensure balanced and fair competition, and that he does not care to invest the resources that would be required for a issue that is already addressed in other ways.

If its a poll you are conducting ("this is to see if we even care in the first place"), put me on the same side as Mr. Shive. Thanks.

it does nothing to ensure balanced and fair competition,


That's baloney! Even if the actual weight does not provide a potential advantage (and that's debatable), the time that a player who gives a **** about following the rules spends weighing his discs to ensure compliance (& not practicing) gives a competitive advantage to the schmoe who couldn't care any less about following the rules (especially knowing that there is no way he's going to get called on it) & uses that time to putt instead.

responding as a player:

While you are waiting in the weighing lines you will have plenty of time to ponder the meaning of the universe. <font color="red"> characterising the process as endlessly long weighing lines is disingenuous at best. there are ways around this logistics challenge that have already been proposed </font> Here are some questions that might occur to you:
1) Who will vouch for the competence and integrity of the mobile lab? <font color="red"> lab? all ya need is a good triple beam scale to do weight testing. creating images of a high tech mobile testing laboratory is somewhat misleading. we're talking about a scale that can be certified in moments using reference weights. </font>
2) Remember those lines before they had preregistration? <font color="red"> yes </font> Does it take less time to weigh all a players� discs than to register a player? <font color="red"> no, but that has nothing to do with this. lets talk about how to do testing, not why it would be silly to stop using pre-registration </font>
3) How much weight might your disc have gained because of exposure to damp or humid environments? <font color="red"> hopefully not enough to make it illegal for use in sanctioned play. . BESIDES, the standard/test DOES NOT INCLUDE A HUMIDITY SCALE. it is simply weight. are the new standards are lacking in scope and/or clarity? </font> Does the mobile lab have a drying oven you can use? <font color="red"> probably not, but that might be a great service for some entrepreneur to offer </font>
4) How will you feel if your disc was disqualified even though it was legal when you weighed it in your own mobile lab before and after the event? <font color="red"> i would feel glad they did it before the event rather than after i cashed using an illegal disc. also, who certified MY mobile lab anyway? </font>
5) Why should a disc that says �PDGA approved� be disapproved by the PDGA? <font color="red"> because the PDGA approves the MOLD SPECIES, not the INDIVIDUAL DISC </font>
6) Why should YOU be punished when it happens? <font color="red"> i wont be punished if testing occurs before the event. if you are defining "punishment" as "being told that an illegal disc may not be used in sanctioned play", then we might better start probably there</font>
7) Why should you have to pay to have the PDGA make measurements that should have been made by manufacturers? <font color="red"> i'm not gonna pay. the PDGA will supply it at no direct cost to the players, i would hope </font>
8) Will the manufacturers be there to replace the discs that flunk? <font color="red"> good question for the manufacturers </font>
9) Will they be there to refund the money you paid for the disc, or do you have to send it back to the company? <font color="red"> another good question for the manufacturers </font>
11) Can you run back to your car and get back in the line with discs to replace the ones that were disqualified.? <font color="red"> sure, why not. btw, what line? </font>
12) Can you get discs certified to replace the ones you lost during the round. <font color="red"> sure, why not </font> If so, will someone give you lunch while you are waiting in that line? <font color="red"> again, your wording seems to paint the worst case scenario out of all possible scenarios. as others have pointed out, this lessens the meaningfulness of the discussion </font>
13) What time was the first round supposed to start? <font color="red"> its in your program </font> What time is it now? <font color="red"> 1:37PM Central time, 12:11PM message board time </font>

5) Why should a disc that says �PDGA approved� be disapproved by the PDGA?
6) Why should YOU be punished when it happens?
7) Why should you have to pay to have the PDGA make measurements that should have been made by manufacturers?
8) Will the manufacturers be there to replace the discs that flunk?
9) Will they be there to refund the money you paid for the disc, or do you have to send it back to the company?





The only discs that will be overweight, are going to be the ones that are at or within a gram of max weight. Humidity could cause the disc to gain 1-2 grams, or even lose 1-2 grams depending on when/where it was produced. These discs, or at least a good percentage (98-99%) are all legal discs when leaving the manufacturers shop. If you are afraid of your discs being overweight, maybe it could be a possibility to move down in weight.

Should the manufacturer be punished for a disc that was legal when it left the shop, but now is not because of the elements? Maybe there should be a tolerance for discs to account for humidity when weighing in at tournaments?

I would say the demand for our discs are near 50% that want them at or very near max weight. We as a manufacturer are making discs at a demand that players want. What if you were a player that throws max weight discs at say 176 and all of the sudden manufacturers stop making discs that heavy, and stop 3 grams lower than max weight so that none are over when they are weighed. There will be a lot of unhappy players because they no-longer can find a disc at max weight. If you want to use the top weights, I would think the player should take some responsibility for knowing that if the humidity rises, that this disc could become overweight. Am I wrong to think this? Just like the manufacturer should take the responsibility if it left the shop as an overweight disc.

5) Why should a disc that says �PDGA approved� be disapproved by the PDGA?
6) Why should YOU be punished when it happens?
7) Why should you have to pay to have the PDGA make measurements that should have been made by manufacturers?
8) Will the manufacturers be there to replace the discs that flunk?
9) Will they be there to refund the money you paid for the disc, or do you have to send it back to the company?





The only discs that will be overweight, are going to be the ones that are at or within a gram of max weight. Humidity could cause the disc to gain 1-2 grams, or even lose 1-2 grams depending on when/where it was produced. These discs, or at least a good percentage (98-99%) are all legal discs when leaving the manufacturers shop. If you are afraid of your discs being overweight, maybe it could be a possibility to move down in weight.

Should the manufacturer be punished for a disc that was legal when it left the shop, but now is not because of the elements? Maybe there should be a tolerance for discs to account for humidity when weighing in at tournaments?

I would say the demand for our discs are near 50% that want them at or very near max weight. We as a manufacturer are making discs at a demand that players want. What if you were a player that throws max weight discs at say 176 and all of the sudden manufacturers stop making discs that heavy, and stop 3 grams lower than max weight so that none are over when they are weighed. There will be a lot of unhappy players because they no-longer can find a disc at max weight. If you want to use the top weights, I would think the player should take some responsibility for knowing that if the humidity rises, that this disc could become overweight. Am I wrong to think this? Just like the manufacturer should take the responsibility if it left the shop as an overweight disc.



Well put Steve. And to reinterate David's point about the future possibly involving more discs that are non-approved than approved. As the non tourney market grows, it wouldn't surprise me.

Because as I see it, right now there are two types of players. Those that know the sport and those that know the game. With most sports its a different set. Those that play and those that play profesionally...here both are well aware of the rules, traditions etc. and its all a matter of how skilled one is and where they can advance within the competetive ranks.
(IE most that can play NBA, do)

to DiscinDreadHead:

It is astonishing to me that a Gateway representative would yawn at a post that suggested that on-site testing programs ask players and tournament directors to bear an unfair portion of responsibility for overweight discs. I refuse to believe that Gateway has no concern for these people.

Much is made of the players' responsibility. But most of this problem is caused by manufacturers who write (for example) "175 gm" on the bottom of a "PDGA approved" disc that they know (or should know) full well weighs 178 gm. It is not caused by mad scientist players who make aftermarket alterations to increase the weight of their discs by neutron irradiation or concealing lead strips within the rim structure.

I do care about overweight discs, but on-site testing is the last remedy to apply, not the first. The first is to make modest alterations in our random sampling program and give it some teeth.

Finally, as to the relevance of my comments here. It could be argued that are irrelevant, but only because the title of this thread assumes that the problem must be attacked as a rules issue. It would be more useful if the title were "Does anybody care about eliminating overweight discs?"

to DiscinDreadHead:

It is astonishing to me that a Gateway representative would yawn at a post that suggested that on-site testing programs ask players and tournament directors to bear an unfair portion of responsibility for overweight discs. I refuse to believe that Gateway has no concern for these people.

Much is made of the players' responsibility. But most of this problem is caused by manufacturers who write (for example) "175 gm" on the bottom of a "PDGA approved" disc that they know (or should know) full well weighs 178 gm. It is not caused by mad scientist players who make aftermarket alterations to increase the weight of their discs by neutron irradiation or concealing lead strips within the rim structure.

I do care about overweight discs, but on-site testing is the last remedy to apply, not the first. The first is to make modest alterations in our random sampling program and give it some teeth.

Finally, as to the relevance of my comments here. It could be argued that are irrelevant, but only because the title of this thread assumes that the problem must be attacked as a rules issue. It would be more useful if the title were "Does anybody care about eliminating overweight discs?"



Well Pete, have you worked in a frisbee factory? Have you seen the inner workings? There are a lot of factors at work and it seemed like you were picking on manufacturers when eventually a player has to write HIS/HER name on it for play. Does that not clearly represent where responsbility should lie.

And I only yawned because it seems like most of your posts, while credible none the less, are often excessivly wordy and feature language that seems purposely too formal.

my original post in this space quoted an old version of the tech standards. the link from the Online Rules needs updating, i've asked the office to update the link... posting this retraction here to avoid any confusion.

old standards: http://pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGATechStandards.pdf

new standards: http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGATechStandards_08.pdf





original post:

when in doubt, read the documents. the rulebook references the tech standards , which says this:


the online rules are clear about why an individual disc of a mold that is certified by the tech standards committee and approved by the Board must/can still be tested:



D. Discs must be specifically approved by the director if questioned by another player or an official, but in no case shall the disc be approved if it violates any of the above specifications. Any specifically non-approved disc (per the director) shall be considered illegal, and the player shall be penalized in accordance with 802.01 E.

pre-event teesting eliminates the potential of a player demanding a bag be checked for overweight discs - a demand that according to the rules can be made and must be honored.


Members, there is written guidance in every major document of this association that points towards at-event testing of individual discs.

the only question that makes sense today is "how and when do we start?"!

And again, the mold is approved, not individual discs. What if I secretly added concentrate to a batch of Innova plastic, and 1000 Destroyers came out 2 grams overweight before anyone noticed. Buisness is buisness and they are sold as legal. Does this mean that all Destroyers are overweight/illegal? Of course not, so likewise every Destroyer is not ness. legal or of weight.

(10) pass the leading edge radius test with a 1/16" (1.6 mm) radius gauge;
(11) have a flexibility rating no greater than 27 lb. (12.25 kg); and




I think these two illustrate very clearly why these specs (and weight) are 'as manufactured' specs, not as stands the morning of the tourrnament. The flex test has to be conducted with a controlled temperature or it is irrelevant. Discs that wouldn't pass in the certification lab shouldn't be allowed just because you are playing in Death Valley, California (120 degrees) and discs that would pass in the certification lab shouldn't be disqualified at the North Forks, ND Ice Bowl (-5 degrees). Leading edge diameter has to be as it came out of the mold, not picking a particular burr or ding on a used disc and declaring, "Hey, that's now not legal because of that tree you just hit on the last fairway". After all, isn't every part of the outside edge leading at some point?

A disc that weighed 175 gms at the factory in should be legal even if it has dirt on it, is wet, or has absorbed humidity in Florida's summer climate. Thus, if the manufacturer provides discs that are within the specs and the players have not illegally modified them, all requirements of the rules and tech standards have been met. If some joker with a scale shows up and tries to tell you otherwise, I think the resulting feeback from the players, TDs, volunteers and the like would be to take a hike. Either the guy with the scale or the players themselves. The TD can decide which of the two would be more important to him/her.

and you might be right. your argument does make sense on the surface at least if not even deeper, i'm not disputing that at all. i think the other side is stronger, but i wont disparage your line of reasoning

sometimes i think we need to just clearly state that some measurements are for approval of the mold, and others are for individual discs in play. if that is the direction we need to go in to clear up the confusion, then we can go that way.

If, as Rich_Koski posits:

It was a safety issue not a competition issue.


Is a disc at

Death Valley, California (120 degrees)


more safe, less safe, or equally safe as that same disc at

North Forks, ND Ice Bowl (-5 degrees).



It seems to me that, if one spuriously believes that the rule is a safety issue &amp; not a competition issue, that at-event measurement is absolutely essential, since at-event is where any safety issue will be germane. If a disc is just barely "safe" at 72 degreesF when it leaves the manufacturer's door, it will very likely be very "safe" at 120 degreesF and extremely "unsafe" at -5.

the online rules are clear about why an individual disc of a mold that is certified by the tech standards committee and approved by the Board must/can still be tested:


D. Discs must be specifically approved by the director if questioned by another player or an official, but in no case shall the disc be approved if it violates any of the above specifications. Any specifically non-approved disc (per the director) shall be considered illegal, and the player shall be penalized in accordance with 802.01 E.

pre-event teesting eliminates the potential of a player demanding a bag be checked for overweight discs - a demand that according to the rules can be made and must be honored.


Members, there is written guidance in every major document of this association that points towards at-event testing of individual discs.

the only question that makes sense today is "how and when do we start?"!

Then you could have a situation where a tourning pro would have to worry whether the conditions at the next venue would result in his prize discs being usable or not.

Of course this is a moot issue as the flex standards couldn't be on-site tested anyway. Being a destructive test, there is absolutely no way I'd let you put any disc in my bag, let alone my 8x Roc, in a flex tester and wreck it.

safety is not a testing issue. it would be a very risky move to make it so. having the PDGA Approved stamp says nothing about safety. and shouldnt! lets not open up a huge liability.

Members, there is written guidance in every major document of this association that points towards at-event testing of individual discs.





Hyperbole alert!

That is your interpretation, not a concrete reality. My impression is that most TDs, PDGA board members and PDGA membership would interpet differently. Writing it as reality doesn't make it so, and ranks right up there with 'we went to Iraq to fight the terrorists' or 'either your with us or against us'.

to DiscinDreadHead:

It is astonishing to me that a Gateway representative would yawn at a post that suggested that on-site testing programs ask players and tournament directors to bear an unfair portion of responsibility for overweight discs. I refuse to believe that Gateway has no concern for these people.

Much is made of the players' responsibility. But most of this problem is caused by manufacturers who write (for example) "175 gm" on the bottom of a "PDGA approved" disc that they know (or should know) full well weighs 178 gm. It is not caused by mad scientist players who make aftermarket alterations to increase the weight of their discs by neutron irradiation or concealing lead strips within the rim structure.

I do care about overweight discs, but on-site testing is the last remedy to apply, not the first. The first is to make modest alterations in our random sampling program and give it some teeth.

Finally, as to the relevance of my comments here. It could be argued that are irrelevant, but only because the title of this thread assumes that the problem must be attacked as a rules issue. It would be more useful if the title were "Does anybody care about eliminating overweight discs?"


Pete,
Have you read through the discussion from the beginning?
I have stated time and again that I recommend a voluntary testing period of at least 2 years.
This will give players plenty of time to get their equipment right for competition at the highest level.

Over weight discs are just one of 5 or 6 ways a disc may be non conforming. All of the rules are of equal concern to me and should be to the future of competition at the highest level.

Any player that wants to play for the BIG money or consider themselves a pro should be all for testing discs.
Besides the logistics of the procedures, is there a legitimate reason players shouldn't have their discs checked?

Trust me if sometime in the near future a big corporation had a choice to sponsor one of 2 tours, the one with the highest standards for play will wind up with the cash.

to Gateway_Disc_Sports:

David,
Thanks for your response. I have some questions for you. Although the logistics are a huge concern, I'll leave them out of the first group:
1) If Gateway makes a disc, stamps it "PDGA approved" and writes "175 gm" on the bottom, and that disc is disqualified at a tournament because it weighs 178 gm, would Gateway bear any of the responsibility, or does Gateway believe that this is entirely the player's fault? Is Gateway willing to help pay for the mobile labs? Will Gateway have a booth nearby to replace that disc? Should Gateway pay a fine?
2) How long do you think it takes Jeff Homburg to test one disc? On-site testing for weight is a precedent leading to disaster. If, as you say, all rules are of equal concern to you, you could eventually argue that we should test on-site for every tech standard of every disc. I do not want to start down this road.

to Gateway_Disc_Sports:

David,
Thanks for your response. I have some questions for you. Although the logistics are a huge concern, I'll leave them out of the first group:
1) If Gateway makes a disc, stamps it "PDGA approved" and writes "175 gm" on the bottom, and that disc is disqualified at a tournament because it weighs 178 gm, would Gateway bear any of the responsibility, or does Gateway believe that this is entirely the player's fault? Is Gateway willing to help pay for the mobile labs? Will Gateway have a booth nearby to replace that disc? Should Gateway pay a fine?
2) How long do you think it takes Jeff Homburg to test one disc? On-site testing for weight is a precedent leading to disaster. If, as you say, all rules are of equal concern to you, you could eventually argue that we should test on-site for every tech standard of every disc. I do not want to start down this road.



Couldn't this also be re-written to say "Are all tech standards nessesary?

Pete,
2 words com to mind: Voluntary testing!
We instruct all of our sponsored players to check and double check the weight of their discs, I would suggest the same for all players who play PDGA events.


I would like to ask you a question before I go on:
If all the necessary equipment was made available and you were at a Big event with a roll start where players discs could be checked for everything but flex ( maybe a durometer test for this, would you be opposed to having each players bag tested?


There is a need for all companies to answer your questions and really no reason to come at Gateway exclusivley just because I am projecting a thought to our members about our tech standards and rules that govern play.
I am member and a player first and have been for a really long time, which should give me the right to ask competition questions as a player or for other players.

This is a discussion board right????

The MAJORITY of Gateway's current business is in selling our putters to new and rec players.
At this point 90-95% off all discs used in PDGA events are not Gateway discs anyway, so it would make more since to use another company's name here!
Maybe this is why people are so against testing, its really something that I thought serious players would embrace.
Like I said, I think polling the top 100 players might be the direction for this topic.


Is the fall out really the fear here??

Shouldn't assuring all players were using discs that conform to the tech standards trump the fear?

It seems to me voluntary testing for a few years would get nonconforming discs out of the players bags and minimize the
the chaos when we decide to start testing the players discs at events in say,,,, 2012 ( or sometime down the road).

Would it be better to have a players disc questioned after an event where he could be DQ'ed and forfeit prize money?

Man,,,, there must be some reason the PGA checks in the clubs BEFORE they play,,,,, what could it be???,,,, Hhhhmmmm?????




I have been asked questions by email, taken polls and surveys and discussed tech standards with 1/2 the board members over the last 6 months.
If we ( the pdga) found it important enough to make new rules or change old ones, it seemed only logical that we would also make some rules to enforce these rules while we were at it.

I believe that if the players discs ( non company specific) continue to go unchecked at pdga events, there will eventually be a problem.

The more I hear from players who do not want their discs checked the more it seems like a BIG red flag to me.

The idea to check discs on shelves is hardly the way to assure discs used in play are conforming.

Take a look at any "in the bag" thread.
You will see a lot of players are using discs that are not from the existing shelves of discs and some of their discs were never on a shelf, especially if they are sponsored.
I can guarantee this trend will continue, which means shelf testing will never be a solution.

I want to thank everyone for their participation in this discussion.

I know more now about this topic than before the thread started and have had some very interesting discussions, on here, through Email and on the phone.

Its time for me to clock out on this one for a while, I think Ive heard enough BS reasons on why it won't work or shouldn't be done!

If someone has information on a procedure, testing device or wants to work towards a solution, my email is david@gdstour.com.


Good luck, have fun,,,,, be fair and check your own discs:

PEACE OUT!


BTW MOE rocked tonight :cool::cool:

Do they weigh their balls in the PGA? If they do, why hasn't Sabatini been disqualified?

Dave's approach seems reasonable:

Year One: <ul type="square"> Voluntary testing at WDGCs - Weight [/list]

Year Two: <ul type="square"> Mandatory testing at WDGCs - Weight
Voluntary testing at other Majors/Super Tour - Weight [/list]

Year Three: <ul type="square"> Mandatory testing at WDGCs
Mandatory testing at other Majors/Super Tour
Voluntary testing at A Tiers [/list]

And so on, down so far as you want to take it. You could also add Voluntary testing for other tech specs at the same time as Mandatory testing for weight, then change the voluntary to mandatory the next year.

One problem would be how to mark the discs as passing the field tech spec. A sticker would not be allowed, IMO, so it would have to be some sort of indelible stamp, that would last at least as long as the tournament. I would also say that if a disc did have this stamp, it would not have to be tested again for tech specs, but of course it could still be challenged for cracks, perforations, and post-production modifications.

I think the above is workable, but I will leave it up to the BOD and the membership as to whether or not such field testing is necessary, or, since we trust our members to self-police themselves re: the Rules of Play, we can also trust our members to self-police themselves regarding using non-spec discs.

For if we cannot trust our players to self-police themselves re: non-spec discs, then we should have a marshal accompany every group at a WDGC or Major, since we probably cannot trust their ability to self-police other aspects of the Game.

to Gateway_Disc_Sports:

Dave,

You said, "I would like to ask you a question before I go on:
If all the necessary equipment was made available and you were at a Big event with a roll start where players discs could be checked for everything but flex ( maybe a durometer test for this, would you be opposed to having each players bag tested?"

This is the key question. Could I support such a program as this? At this point I don't know. I would have to have the answer to some other questions first.
1) How much would it cost and who would pay?
2) How long would it take? On this one, I wouldn't want the first application be at an event. I'd have to see a demonstration myself before I'd ever recommend we institute the program. Someone would need to set up a mobile lab (maybe you, maybe at Worlds) and certify all the discs in my bag for all the specs. It wouldn't have to be Worlds. I'll know my schedule pretty soon and I could let you know it.
3) I'd want to be more convinced that the problems you worry about could not be alleviated with a much simpler, less expensive program.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I think my question is applicable on this thread.

The following is from the new PDGA Tech Std document,
http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGATechStandards_08.pdf

From (I) DISCS; (B) Notification, License and Use of PDGA Certification, first part of third pp:

"After the manufacturer is notified of PDGA approval and certification, the equipment may be used in PDGA-sanctioned competition and the equipment manufacturer must uniquely identify each product. This can be accomplished by placing a distinguishing symbol or name on all products for sale. Indelible markers, hotstamps and mold markings are all acceptable methods of marking discs."

This is how I interpret what those 2 sentences say: If a new disc was approved on or after 1/1/08, and the disc is used in PDGA-sanctioned competition, then the specific disc model (Roc, Wizard, Buzzzz, Hyzer #1, etc.) MUST be identifiable, and three examples are given above, and it is obvious that the three ways (indelible marker, hotstamp or mold marking) are meant to be somewhat permanent. So, I would think that writing an abbreviation of a disc model on the bottom of the disc with a ball point pen would not be acceptable.


Here are my questions/comments:

1) Would a ball point pen abbreviation written on the bottom of a disc be considered in the same "permanency league" as a hotstamp, mold marking or indelible mark? My opinion is NO.

2) If NO, then are discs that were approved prior to 1/1/08 subject to this marking necessity, or only discs approved on or after 1/1/08? If previously approved discs must have this type of marking, that would indicate to me that if a disc has a custom hotstamp that does not indicate the disc model, and neither does the bottm of the disc (as most Innova discs do not, IIRC), then these discs must have some sort of semi-permanent indication of what model disc it is, correct?

3) I can't recall if there have been any new discs approved in 2008. If so, can someone who has one please chime in as to how the disc is marked? Usually, stock plastic would have the model of the disc hotstamped, but if not, and the mold itself does not have specific model markings, then it needs to have a permanent or semipermanent model "symbol" somewhere.

Am I making sense with my interpretations here?

bump

Questions:

1) Would marking a disc's model via a ball point pen be in line with the new tech std document?

2) Do the changes in the tech std doc apply only to discs approved on or after 1/1/08, or do they apply to previously approved discs that are manufactured on or after 1/1/08?

3) Should I assume that the lack of reply is primarily due to the complexity of the issue or the irrelevant matter of the issue?

bump

Questions:

1) Would marking a disc's model via a ball point pen be in line with the new tech std document?

2) Do the changes in the tech std doc apply only to discs approved on or after 1/1/08, or do they apply to previously approved discs that are manufactured on or after 1/1/08?

3) Should I assume that the lack of reply is primarily due to the complexity of the issue or the irrelevant matter of the issue?



I feel you are making a solid case as to how difficult it will be to distinguish which discs is which, and whether its on the approved list or not!
You are reinforcing the fact that the only thing that should matter or be tested for is if the disc is conforming or not.

Should a player care if a disc is on the pdga approved list or if the discs is conforming to the tech standards?

I know the pdga would like both, but the reality is there will be NO WAY to tell if the disc on the list is the disc in question.
To me ( as a player),,,, as long as a disc is within the rules a player should be able to use it, regardless if its on the list or not.
If its outside of the rules it shouldn't be used regardless if its on the list or not!

I'll pose a question.

Would you allow you opponent to compete with a disc that is on the pdga approved list but not conforming to the rules or would you rather have him playing with a disc not on the list but well within all of the rules set by the tech standards committee and the PDGA?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Since there was disagreement if the Wheel met the standards, I would say that I'd rather have the simpler case where a player competes with a disc on the list but not conforming.

Since there was disagreement if the Wheel met the standards, I would say that I'd rather have the simpler case where a player competes with a disc on the list but not conforming.



IMO there was no disagreement about the wheel, it was not the shape of a golf disc and too far outside the box.
It had no top, but 2 bottoms.


For the sake of discussion,,, how would this be simpler?

I would think keeping golf discs looking like golf discs in general design and shape is fairly important to the integrity of the game.

The wheel is not the best example here as the shape makes it obvious to tell by site, what disc it is, but soon there will be non conforming discs with 4% rim depth, 2.7 wing length and 20.5cm diameters that will be much harder to tell.
It is possible that we may even make a disc like this with NO INTENTION for it to be used in pdga events.
Others could make a disc like this and stamp what ever they want on the disc including a disc name that is on the pdga approved list.
Who is going to say its not that particular disc?
Especially without any on site testing.
The point is, either way, the discs will be non conforming and could wind up in an event.
Regardless of how they wind up in the bag, do we want players using non conforming discs?? ( on the list or not)

I'll pose a question.

Would you allow you opponent to compete with a disc that is on the pdga approved list but not conforming to the rules or would you rather have him playing with a disc not on the list but well within all of the rules set by the tech standards committee and the PDGA?
:confused: :confused: :confused:



What good is it to be on the list and not conform to the rules?

I have heard rumblings that a few of a new model discs are
overweight and mis-marked.
Should the factory be forced to "destroy" these non conforming
discs?
Can they be marked as non conforming and then sold
as "practice discs"?

What is the difference with the above example and some
unnamed factory selling me overweight putters on eBay
and calling them "good for practice"?

Who draws that line?

s timm

What about the 10m Brick by Quest. It appears on the list of approved discs, but it DEFINITELY does not look like a golf disc and, in my opinion, should not be legal for use in tournament play.

(This is a reply to Dave's post)
Ok, The turbo would have been a better example than the wheel, seeing it was approved and will lose approval at the end of the year. For some molds, it may be difficult to know if a disc meets the standards if the disc that has not gone through the approval process.

Also in the new Guidelines for Manufacturers, there is a standard "(7) have a smooth surface on the bottom part of the rim; that is, a surface free of any irregularities such as protrusions or depressions. When placed on a flat surface, the rim must have no discernible gaps between itself and the surface on which it is resting." My roller disc no longer meets this, is it now illegal? I would argue that it is still legal as this is a guideline for manufacturing, not a rule for use. Would you include this test at a tourney?

Dave, if you really care about this; step up, put your money where your mouth is, and set the standard for manufacturers:

1- For all PDGA approved discs, have PDGA approved AND the mold designation engraved in the mold.
2- If you change a mold at all, rename it and resubmit it.
3- If you weigh a disc coming off the line and it is nonconforming (or nonconforming for other reasons), take a hole punch and put a hole in the flight plate. If you want to sell it, give it away, or destroy it, that's up to you.

Once you do that, then you can a) lean on other manufacturers to follow your lead and/or b) renew your testing crusade. Until then you just sound like many of the others on this board that have a lot to say, but do nothing.