Dear Abby
Our Club has ran a tournament for 23 years during a local festival and it has been sanctioned for as long as I know (2001 usually a B-tier), but this year we cannot be sanctioned during the festival (We get a lot of support from the festival, advertising, trash pickup, free use of a very nice palvion) due to another tournament becoming an A-tier that weekend and the Brent Hambrick the next. What should we do you ask? Move to another weekend in the Summer where we don't get the support of the festival and pay the PDGA 125 bucks plus 3 per player or keep our tournament the date it has been for 23 years don't sanction it and add the 400 bucks normally sent to the PDGA to the payout/player packs or my pocket, but probably the payout.

Can we get it sanctioned with approval from the A-tier TD? Could there be some sort of Grandfather Clause in here to protect us? This is the only sanctioned tournament our club runs all year and for some locals the only one they play in. (some PDGA members). Thanks for any advice. Any criticism will be ignored. Just kidding. Let me know what people think.

Frustrated in Fort Wayne

This seems like a no brainer to me. Keep your date, the support of the festival, and a few hundred dollars. It sounds as though this event will manage without PDGA sanctioning. Does having sanctioning add to your event in any way that would outweigh all of the positive things you mentioned above? With rising fees and only "some PDGA members" this may be a blessing in disguise.

What A tier is the week before the Hambrick? It's not on the schedule.

When the Great Lakes Open used to stop us from B-tiering our ams, we just ran it as a C-tier. If they had flexed their AREA and stopped that, we would have gone unsanctioned and paid everyone cash.

When you take away PDGA sanctioning, what kind of overhead do you have left that would stop you from paying all divisions in cash?

If you want to compete with an A-tier at the other end of the state a couple hundred miles away, that Mountain Experience tournament has shown that nothing competes against prizes better than cash.

I have another idea, but it is in addition to the one above. I don't think y'all have the cahones to run a cash payout tournament against the Lansing A-tier so I'm not wasting good ideas on you yet. Prove me wrong.

if the a tier td says ok you're golden- try that first, then resort to bruce's ideas.

"When you take away PDGA sanctioning, what kind of overhead do you have left that would stop you from paying all divisions in cash"

at some level at least, you are suggesting that the PDGA has created Amateurism in disc golfers :)

yeah thats what we need, all of our ams playing for cash.
I hope your joking.

I suggest keeping your event PDGA sanctioned by making your event a C tier as there is no real difference between a B tier and C tier. Points are pretty much useless and if you have the same payout as years past, I'm sure your attendance will not get hurt.


One big advantage to sanctioning an event is Insurance and another is to give your players a chance to improve their ratings, which seems to be important to a lot of players, especially the newer ones.
The biggest reason of all is that you are supporting the governing body that brought competitive disc golf at the highest level to almost every city that has a course.
It should mean something to be part of something bigger.

Its kind of a bummer that people on the pdga message board would even suggest non sanctioning an event as a first choice since there are other options to pursue.

I wrote an article about 15 years ago called shaping the pro tour for tomorrow. In my opinion there should already be a PRO Tour in place and most should realize that this may mean having to give the tour a fair chance to draw from the region to insure they are getting the very best players.
Because the pdga has waited so long to have an actual chronological and geographical tour in place, it may have missed the window of opportunity.
Regardless if we missed the window or not, there will eventually be a " pro Tour" most likely it will wind up not being governed by the pdga anyway, but by the PRO players themselves. Can the pdga really support the needs of the pros? Today there are about 2 ams to every pro. In 10 years hopefully there will be 10 to 1 or even 50 to one.
When this day comes the need of the many ( ams) will out way the needs of the few( pros) within this association and the 2 will split. Today we must work together and support the PDGA by sanctioning an event or 2 each year in each city.
Not every event has to be PDGA sanctioned and only when all options are considered should you not sanction an event like this that has been sanctioned for such a long time, regardless if you have to move the date or lower your sanctioning in favor of helping an A tier or NT become more successful!

Ask the A-tier TD first. I would hope, if your event is 23 years old, that he/she would give the waiver. If so, you've worried about nothing.

Scheduling is an ongoing problem with no perfect solutions, and likely to get worse as the sport grows. There are pros & cons to allowing the biggest events to schedule first. There are pros & cons to exclusion zones. There are pros & cons to giving long-standing events priority.

I am puzzled by the suggestions to go C-tier. As I understand it, the exclusion zone for the A-tier would apply to any other sanctioned tournament, whether B- or C-tier. Is this wrong?

I have no problems with the suggestion of going non-sanctioned as an option. I'd make sanctioning first choice but, there are times and situations when non-sanctioned is appropriate.

Exclusion zone is 200 miles between A & B tiers or 150 miles between A & C tiers. If we're talking Lansing versus Ft. Wayne, you could liberally call it about 150 miles between them by car, although a bit closer using GPS.

Thanks for the correction, Chuck. One less thing for me to be wrong about. Only a few million left.

If I were you I would just contact the TD of the tournament and see if they will give you the waiver. Since you did not put too many specifics I am not sure if you are referring to the CCR Open in Lansing or not. If you are, then I know the TD personally I am sure he would propably work with you and let you still run your tournament. I mean the guy is a really nice guy and a hell of a disc golf player. You should call him his number is listed or just send him a private message, his username is bobsted.

LOL. You know, there are over 500 PDGA members in Michigan alone, plus probably that many more tournament and league players who are not members. Plus a Lansing A-tier will draw players from Indiana, Ohio and Illinois. There are more than enough players for two good tournaments.

Exclusion zone is 200 miles between A & B tiers or 150 miles between A & C tiers. If we're talking Lansing versus Ft. Wayne, you could liberally call it about 150 miles between them by car, although a bit closer using GPS.



Chuck,

This raises a good question... is the exclusion zone based on driving routes or 'as a crow flies' (aka... straight line?)

Although I'm not sure how precise the calls have been in the past, my guess is that driving distance is more relevant. Take the case of say potential events in London, ON and Erie, PA, or maybe Milwaukee and Grand Rapids, MI. Due to the lake, they are much closer by air than car, even if you consider the more expensive high speed boat option.

There's a big sand dune near Cadillac. Otherwise it's a straight shot!

Run it unsanctioned. What is the PDGA doing for you besides maybe bringing in some out of town players? Your paying them how much for those rights? I know I have paid them thousands of dollars the last few years, and cant figure for the life of me why they still cant come up with a good schedule, and why they will alllow anyone to run a tournament. Oh, wait, thats right. Because we pay them. Its only going to get worse, every year.

PDGA Insurance..... You know what they say about rental car insurance right?


In the near future I see a season of unsanctioned events. People will still join the PDGA and play events, but it wont be the way it is now.

Look at it like this:

When you ask someone to sponsor your event do they care if its a "PDGA Sanctioned Event" ? Do they have any idea whatsoever what the PDGA even is? No sponsor Ive ever talked with has. Players now care about it, ( AM players and Pro players still concerned about a rating or making points for specific events ) but it wont be long before it wont matter. Money talks. If you build a 10 tourney tour and get the right amount of added cash, people will show. You can always add merch as well, if you want to keep the Am payout focused on plastic sales, and it doesnt have to paid out according to a chart that rewards failure.

If I were you I would just contact the TD of the tournament and see if they will give you the waiver. Since you did not put too many specifics I am not sure if you are referring to the CCR Open in Lansing or not. If you are, then I know the TD personally I am sure he would propably work with you and let you still run your tournament. I mean the guy is a really nice guy and a hell of a disc golf player. You should call him his number is listed or just send him a private message, his username is bobsted.


Considering this post, I think that the issue is dead.

Run it unsanctioned. What is the PDGA doing for you?

The problem is that PDGA has moved some A-Tiers around the schedule, and placed them directly against long-standing and good B-Tiers. It's caused not only problems with Fort Wayne and Lansing (CCR was previously in April), but also moving the Glass Blown to April from August, causing a problem with tournaments in the Midwest. The PDGA has a policy of scheduling the A-Tiers and NTs first, and then scheduling everyone else. The problem is, you can't do that in a vacuum. You have to look at other tournaments that have traditionally been on the schedule and been good events, and try not and screw them up. We had a nice corridor of B-Tier events with the Graceland Open, Walk the Plank Challenge in the Omaha area, and a very popular and long-running Hickory Hills doubles event in Iowa on 3 consecutive weekends, and PDGA has now jammed the Glass Blown Open in that part of the schedule against Graceland (and the Glass Blown was doing pretty well in its August slot already...not sure why it was moved in the first place). Since both Graceland and Emporia draw heavily from Kansas City (about 110 miles from both events), it's going to hurt both events (or perhaps, hurt one event a lot more than the other).

Bruce and I are both right on this one. Lansing and Fort Wayne can probably run events against each other with no problems. Michigan and Northern Indiana are heavily populated areas, and the Fort Wayne tournament's hasn't drawn more than 86 players since 2001 anyway...they can probably still get that.

However, when Graceland normally has about 100 players (115 players), and Emporia normally has about 100 players (123 last year), and you're counting on 30-40 of those to come from Kansas City, and all of a sudden the events are on the same weekend, well, those tournaments suddenly have a problem. One of these tournaments might lose a third of its field. I'm not sure Lansing or Fort Wayne would have that problem.

Chap

And with that new 5$ increase for non-members, making it 10$! , tournaments are getting to now feel the pinch of locals not wanting to particpate. Thanks alot PDGA.

Heres a question from TD Doug Peyton and a reply from Steve Kenton, IA SC. ( Soon to be resigning. When I heard about it, I couldnt blame him. )

http://iowadg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38621#38621

$600!?

And with that new 5$ increase for non-members, making it 10$! , tournaments are getting to now feel the pinch of locals not wanting to particpate. Thanks alot PDGA.

Heres a question from TD Doug Peyton and a reply from Steve Kenton, IA SC. ( Soon to be resigning. When I heard about it, I couldnt blame him. )

http://iowadg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38621#38621

$600!?



We ran a few C-Tiers in KC this year with low entry fees ($25-30 for pros, $15 for ams), and got good participation from locals that don't normally play PDGA events. With a $5 PDGA fee, it was palatable for non-members to play. With the $10 non-member fee, I'm not sure we're even going to bother to sanction those events as C-Tiers this year. (although we may anyway, just to get local members more points for 2009 Worlds) We've done a good job at getting PDGA members (we had the most PDGA members of any local club last year, and signed up the most new members last year), but this is just going to turn people off.

I agree 100% Chap. Something we have done for events and Ive encouraged the Club to do was to pay the non-member fees out of added cash. Not anymore.

We average around 15 non-members per event, some more. We also have players that are non renewed , guys that only hit one or two events a year, mainly in support of our business or the Club. Can pretty much count on over half of them falling off as well.

Why dont they renew? Why for? They could care less about ratings or want to travel more than an hour to play an event. The ones that are Open players dont want to spend absurd amounts to play in 2 tournaments a year. ( That alone seems to be something nobody in the PDGA understands. ) I play in 20-30 sanctioned events a year, so the PDGA makes sense to me, and I will continue my support....As a player. As a TD, it may be dropping off quite a bit.

This probably wont be well recieved, but personally, I think the PDGA needs to step away from sanctioning everything. IMO, they should do Majors, a real National Tour, and A-Tier events only.

Without PDGA sanctioning many tournaments would not be possible without the insurance that comes along with it at a VERY reasonable rate. Some courses require insurance...

Without PDGA sanctioning many tournaments would not be possible without the insurance that comes along with it at a VERY reasonable rate. Some courses require insurance...




Oh really? I run several events a year and dont use the PDGA insurance. Try calling around. You may be suprised.

Our club has a $2,000,000 liability policy through Travelers St. Paul, that currently costs us around $300 a year. That may be too expensive for some clubs...and we certainly are one of the larger clubs around (although not the largest), so we can afford it. As many events as we run (not all of them sanctioned), we really can't afford NOT to have it. You definitely should check around....insurance may not be as expensive as you think.

Chap

I have called around. :)

We are a small club just finishing its first year so, sanctioning allows us to hold tournaments with the PDGA policy at a low reasonable fee.

However, if you wanted to PM your agent I will hold onto it. There may be a time in the future where we might be able to afford such a policy.

I still don't see any A-tier the weekend before the Hambrick.

I still don't see any A-tier the weekend before the Hambrick.



The Michiana Open
South Bend

oh and that was last year
they might not have thier listing in yet

don't move it man!!!!!! Keep your money!!!

make it unsanctioned- especially if you are going to have mainly locals that only play this 1 tournament a year.It would be doing them a big favor by not making them pay the $10 sanctioning fee.

Could always do a SN event :P They've been ran in plenty places outside of the south, even out of country.

http://www.sndg.org