As I see the changes in the divisions, I just have a couple of questions so I will have a better picture of how to offer divisions in 2008. Please take the poll and help me out. This poll is for my information only, so please don't tell me I need to add any questions to it.

Of course, you can do both of the items in the second question at the same time.

As a local club officer and almost two years into the sport w an 889 rating, I will now become a rec player. That really precludes answering these questions. Its especially disconcerting to hear people say "just play up a division" because that makes me wonder why even have ratings/divisions if you can't reliably get to play where you 'fit' while feeling like you're competing against similarly-skilled players.

Everything seems like it would be OK if the Int cutoff were 850 or 875 instead of 900. Try looking at all these changes as if you were a lower-rated player and then justify why it promotes the sport to demote players and then insult them by telling them to play up a division to merely compete for last place?

There are at least some on the Competition Committee that would have preferred neutral division names like colors. But there are more traditionalists that prefer the names that have been used before to reduce confusion with the ratings break transitions for 2008.

I played that tournament in Birmingham on Saturday. Seems like a lot of players play up a division in Alabama. Guys were telling my daughter she should move up to advanced men!

Jebb, as a club officer you ought to lead rather than follow. You should tell your buddies that the PDGA names for the divisions are messed up, and that you're just going to go by your rating, and they should do the same.

Obviously you are not a Rec player. But with the new divisions you are an MA3 (Men's Amateur 3). You should feel fine playing MA3 because anyone who can't compete there can go play MA4.

hey Chuck, can you tell me why they changed the scale in the first place? Do they change it often? thanks

Better division size balance was partly the reason. But the main reason was the distance between the 915 Advanced break and Ken Climo at 1040. That's been too big of a gap and another one was needed to not strand the players in Advanced trying to make the crossover to pro. If you look at the 40-50 ranges in the Am ranks, moving the break to 935 was a no brainer to make it more fair all along the scale. In addition, Ams will now be able to play pro and earn merch prizes. Both changes should help support the moves up the ladder for players whether they ever can make the pro grade or just end up in the 935 to 975 range forever.

I played that tournament in Birmingham on Saturday. Seems like a lot of players play up a division in Alabama. Guys were telling my daughter she should move up to advanced men!



I played against your other daughter in Rec. I've been playing since June so I thought this would be the division to enter :oIt was a little embarrassing for me to have a 13 year old out drive me by about 10 feet every time. She would have gotten a lot more points playing intermediate and she definately had the skill to compete there. It was a pleasure playing against her, and no hard feelings but I don't want to do it again until I am a LOT better at this :)

And in 2008 I will be enthusiasticly playing as an Enthusiast.

As a local club officer and almost two years into the sport w an 889 rating, I will now become a rec player.



Isn't Rec (Enthusiast for 2008) for <850? The chart I saw has it at that, has it changed? The 2008 divisions were *I thought* Expert (935+), Advanced (900-934), Intermediate (850-899), and Enthusiast (<850).

Or is my info wrong or am I just confused or both?

Even though I'm only an 884 player I'm just going to go ahead and move all the way up to the Advanced division. I know in Int. I can usually beat or tie most people, so I didnt feel like I was being challenged. Plus I play better when I'm around better people because of my competitive nature.

Expert and Enthusiast got replaced by the Board. It's Advanced, Intermediate, Recreational and Novice.

There are at least some on the Competition Committee that would have preferred neutral division names like colors. But there are more traditionalists that prefer the names that have been used before to reduce confusion with the ratings break transitions for 2008.



Well, I know one on the committee who preferred colors. :) If there were a majority, the committee would have recommended colors to the BoD.

As far the changing the ratings breaks, for me, it had NOTHING to do with gap between the 915 Advanced player and Climo at 1040. Climo didn't even enter the equation. It was more about the gap between the 990 Advanced player and the 915-rated Advanced player, and moreso the 915-rated Advanced player that got lucky or played over his head in his first tournament, got rated at 915 and had to play Advanced for the next 2-3 months, when he's probably more of an 880-890 player for now. I think anyone who can play 935 golf can play Advanced.

I will continue to play Advanced, or Advanced Masters, now that I'm eligible (or will be in 2 weeks.) :) For me, it's more of a desire to play with more experienced players in PDGA events, and not have to explain rules every time out, which is what I had to do when I played Intermediate. I'm fine with and prefer to do that in local leagues or minis...I'm all for teaching. But by the time someone's in a PDGA event, they should know that they have to hole every shot out, and not get sore at me when I ask them to do so.

Chap

There are at least some on the Competition Committee that would have preferred neutral division names like colors. But there are more traditionalists that prefer the names that have been used before to reduce confusion with the ratings break transitions for 2008.



Well, I know one on the committee who preferred colors. :) If there were a majority, the committee would have recommended colors to the BoD.

As far the changing the ratings breaks, for me, it had NOTHING to do with gap between the 915 Advanced player and Climo at 1040. Climo didn't even enter the equation. It was more about the gap between the 990 Advanced player and the 915-rated Advanced player, and moreso the 915-rated Advanced player that got lucky or played over his head in his first tournament, got rated at 915 and had to play Advanced for the next 2-3 months, when he's probably more of an 880-890 player for now. I think anyone who can play 935 golf can play Advanced.

I will continue to play Advanced, or Advanced Masters, now that I'm eligible (or will be in 2 weeks.) :) For me, it's more of a desire to play with more experienced players in PDGA events, and not have to explain rules every time out, which is what I had to do when I played Intermediate. I'm fine with and prefer to do that in local leagues or minis...I'm all for teaching. But by the time someone's in a PDGA event, they should know that they have to hole every shot out, and not get sore at me when I ask them to do so.

Chap



That desire to play with better disc golfers is my motivation for moving all the way to advanced, and plus like you, I was tired of explaining all the rules to Int. players. I've let so many rules infractions slip by in tourneys because I knew these Int. players were completely unaware of the rules, and most of the time the group would just vote warning because the players "didnt know."

Expert and Enthusiast got replaced by the Board. It's Advanced, Intermediate, Recreational and Novice.



Thanks for the info! I'll be in Novice then :cool:

and plus like you, I was tired of explaining all the rules to Int. players. I've let so many rules infractions slip by in tourneys because I knew these Int. players were completely unaware of the rules, and most of the time the group would just vote warning because the players "didnt know."



unfortunately you will see the same thing in Advanced and even in pro.

: ) :

I played that tournament in Birmingham on Saturday. Seems like a lot of players play up a division in Alabama. Guys were telling my daughter she should move up to advanced men!



I played against your other daughter in Rec. I've been playing since June so I thought this would be the division to enter :oIt was a little embarrassing for me to have a 13 year old out drive me by about 10 feet every time. She would have gotten a lot more points playing intermediate and she definately had the skill to compete there. It was a pleasure playing against her, and no hard feelings but I don't want to do it again until I am a LOT better at this :)

And in 2008 I will be enthusiasticly playing as an Enthusiast.

My younger daughter has been playing for ten years, so don't be discouraged. In Alabama she could compete in Intermediate, but we're not from Alabama. You can look at her stats (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=16008)and see that she is normally in the bottom third in Men's Rec in Illinois. There are regional differences in how people play PDGA tournaments. In the south almost everyone plays up. In Chicago almost everyone plays where their rating puts them.

Most likely I'll play MA2 next year if my rating stays down. Maybe at my own tournaments I'll play Open because we have a reduced entry fee option.

and plus like you, I was tired of explaining all the rules to Int. players. I've let so many rules infractions slip by in tourneys because I knew these Int. players were completely unaware of the rules, and most of the time the group would just vote warning because the players "didnt know."



unfortunately you will see the same thing in Advanced and even in pro.

: ) :



That's true, but to a far lesser extent in Advanced and pro. And in those cases, the player that doesn't know the rules is in the vast minority.

There are regional differences in how people play PDGA tournaments. In the south almost everyone plays up. In Chicago almost everyone plays where their rating puts them.



I agree. Most of the people playing in the Intermediate could have played in the Recreational. I think there were only a handfull that were over 875. But I think that Recreational down here has the stigma of being the 'Beginners" division, most people with more than a year or two experience clear out regardless of their rating, as you can see from the tourney this weekend. The only other tourney I have been in didn't even offer a Rec division, just 60 of us playing Int.

i predict that players in this area will overwhelmingly choose to play in the division they were in last year just as they did when the rating system was introduced. the boards lack of understanding of human nature and semantics is reflected yet again in the decision to assign most players to a lower division designation than that in which they were already competing. just what every third grader wants- to be told he is actually a second grader.

To continue your analogy its really ignorant and insulting to tell that 3rd grader "you'll do just fine if you jump to 4th grade" knowing they'll be getting D and F grades.

For those of us wanting to follow the natural progression between divisions (when our rating delineates so), hearing that we should move up to compete for last in a division we're not yet ready to play in absolutely makes us lose interest in playing pdga golf.

Jebb, as a club officer you ought to lead rather than follow. You should tell your buddies that the PDGA names for the divisions are messed up, and that you're just going to go by your rating, and they should do the same.


I was going to play my rating, then the TD moved my division to the short pads 36 hours from tee time and expected us to play a rated round from what was essentially a new course. If I had moved up, I would have been playing for last place while essentially donating $10 more bucks. Surely you can see why this is wrong, no?

I can play poorly on that course for free anytime, so I'm still trying to figure out how encouraging people to spend more to compete in divisions they dont really belong in is promoting the sport.

I was going to play my rating, then the TD moved my division to the short pads 36 hours from tee time and expected us to play a rated round from what was essentially a new course. If I had moved up, I would have been playing for last place while essentially donating $10 more bucks. Surely you can see why this is wrong, no?




In my opinion, the TD made the right call. Playing two rounds from the back tees with almost 90 players (mostly Int, Rec and Juniors), we would have been playing in the dark and in the rain. Since it is your home course, you may have had your game tweaked for the long tees and for that I completely understand your frustration at moving the tees at the last second, but it was for the betterment of all players that the change was made. And I certainly wouldn't have said "just move up" to you. I would say "Adapt". The way the course is laid out, honestly, the only hole that wasn't just longer/more trees from the back tees was #5 (dog leg right from the back tees, straight on from the front tees) so you should have been able to play your game anyway.

And the TD did offer a full refund the day of the tourney for anyone who wanted it.

Trussville is not my home course - I live 2 blocks from George Ward Park which is 30 mins away. ;-)

I wasn't arguing if it was the right call, I was against doing so with a *one day window* before the tourney when many of us had made the hour round trip several times to practice the tees announced weeks prior. It was not a fair thing to do to the largest contingent of players at the last minute.

Looks like the psychologists are thinking we might need to create a new Junior division for those under 25:

By MARILYN ELIAS, USA Today
Posted: 2007-12-14 13:05:24

Kids and parents agree: 18- to 25-year-olds aren't adults.

Once upon a time, 18- to 25-year-olds were considered adults. That's a fairy tale now, say most parents of college students, and their kids agree in a new study that confirms "growing up" comes later. READERS: At what age did you become an adult and how did you know?

Only 16% of mothers and 19% of fathers say their children this age have reached adulthood. And their kids don't dispute it: Just 16% consider themselves grown up in the online survey of 392 college students and their 590 parents. The study, reported in the December issue of Journal of Family Psychology, involved students on five diverse campuses.

Most kids agreed with parents that one must take responsibility for one's actions and have good emotional control to be considered an adult. But parents were far more likely than students to see not becoming drunk and driving safely as vital to adulthood.

http://coaches.aol.com/kids-and-family/f...213150309990001 (http://coaches.aol.com/kids-and-family/feature/_a/kids-and-parents-agree-18-to-25-year/20071213150309990001)

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If I hang onto my Intermediate rating past the January update, I'll have to make a road trip south!

Look at it this way: how in the heck can the divisional system work if the majority of players ignore it and play in the wrong divisino?



a better question is : why would anyone expect the system to work if those who set it up completely ignore the divisions their customers are already playing in of their own free will?

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Look at it this way: how in the heck can the divisional system work if the majority of players ignore it and play in the wrong divisino?



a better question is : why would anyone expect the system to work if those who set it up completely ignore the divisions their customers are already playing in of their own free will?



I'll play the division I'm rated for at the Bowling Green Amateur Championship! Oh, wait....

That's right they aren't offering my division. I guess if I want to play I will have to "play up".

Frankly, I wouldn't want to play in a division named Rec or Novice after I had played for a year or two. I think we're missing what we've all learned from consumer marketing. If we're not using colors, we need division names that all sound like you're pretty good to really good like popcorn sizes that are Humongous, Giant, Super &amp; Large. For disc golf maybe: Expertisimo, Excellente, Superbo and Amateur. Has an international flavor and not a novice in the bunch.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to play in a division named Rec or Novice after I had played for a year or two. I think we're missing what we've all learned from consumer marketing. If we're not using colors, we need division names that all sound like you're pretty good to really good like popcorn sizes that are Humongous, Giant, Super &amp; Large. For disc golf maybe: Expertisimo, Excellente, Superbo and Amateur. Has an international flavor and not a novice in the bunch.



Yuck. Give me colors or letters.

Nothing wrong with Blue, White, Red or MA1, MA2, MA3...

I'm a novice and have no problems with it. I realize how much I have to learn to be in a division other than novice. I also realize that novice is a division above chucker.

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Or maybe in honor of our big international areas we have: Yeti, Thor, Samurai and Amateur divisions? I'm thinking players with Samurai ratings wouldn't feel they needed to play up in the Thor division.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to play in a division named Rec or Novice after I had played for a year or two. I think we're missing what we've all learned from consumer marketing. If we're not using colors, we need division names that all sound like you're pretty good to really good like popcorn sizes that are Humongous, Giant, Super &amp; Large. For disc golf maybe: Expertisimo, Excellente, Superbo and Amateur. Has an international flavor and not a novice in the bunch.



I agree Chuck. The terms recreational and novice stink. They make it sound as if the players in those divisions are just casual. The neutral color system sounds better and it doesn't make someone sound as if they found themselves in a tournament competition by accident. :D

Moral of the story: play where your rating says to play. If you're felling froggy, jump up a division for a tourney or two, but don't call anyone a bagger when they smack you by 20 strokes when your rating says you don't belong up there.

And look at your own rating and deal with it. If you're rated 860 you have no business in Advanced. That's just how it is. Work on your putting and get some consistency in your upshots and bring that rating up through practice instead of playing up two divisions and getting slaughtered. You'll learn a lot more about yourself and how to deal with pressure on the lead card in Rec defending a 2 stroke lead with 5 holes to go as your opponent is heating up than you'll ever learn on the last card in Advanced or Open with a bunch of drunk p�ssed off "better golfers" who are shooting poorly and mad to be on such a crappy card.


My feelings exactly, but unfortunately people around here don't typically tend to see it that way. I truly get upset when people say "just play advanced" when I have yet to reach that level (the ONLY good part of my game is my long arm which is still very inconsistent).

Writing off the fact that many of us Int players want to naturally progress, then nudging us off to slaughter in higher divisions is something people need to be aware of now, because this system is not promoting the sport, nor keeping such players competing because people are smart enough to realize their higher entry fee is most often paying the pro field (there's no incentive in this new rating system to keep Am players competing)

Now we Int players of 2007 have to deal with deciding to play Novice in 2008 or play up in Intermediate. I dont see how this helps the situation when the system itself is now encouraging us lower-rated players to play up a division just to donate our tourney entries to someone already playing the proper division.

???

The TDs and the market place are as responsible as any for pushing players upward. If a TD can fill an event with higher rated players who pay higher entry fees, why would they want to deal with the lower divisions? And several TDs don't offer those divisions. Since the TDs aren't PDGA employees and most breakeven or lose money running events, I'm not sure how the lower divisions get offered if fewer TDs wish to include them? If your course only holds 90 players and fills without the lower or smaller divisions, I don't see the solution, especially if the TD doesn't want to run the other divisions on the opposite day. Fortunately, not every market is this way. But the big ones with lots of top players are also ones with lots of lower rated players.

Now we Int players of 2007 have to deal with deciding to play Novice in 2008 or play up in Intermediate. I dont see how this helps the situation when the system itself is now encouraging us lower-rated players to play up a division just to donate our tourney entries to someone already playing the proper division.

???



Jebb, is it just the name "Novice" (or rather "Recreational" I think you meant) that is getting to you? I don't see how the system is encouraging you to "play up" unless of course you are refering to the Novice division not being offered at tournaments. If you are a true Intermediate player from 2007, your rating would have to be 875+, anything less and you are actually a Recreation player who has been playing up so you wouldn't have to tell people you were in the Recreational division. With 875+ in 2008, you won't be able to play Novice, you will have to play Recreational (or above). Nothing is forcing you to play in Intermediate except pride.

Now we Int players of 2007 have to deal with deciding to play Novice in 2008 or play up in Intermediate. I dont see how this helps the situation when the system itself is now encouraging us lower-rated players to play up a division just to donate our tourney entries to someone already playing the proper division.

???



Jebb, is it just the name "Novice" (or rather "Recreational" I think you meant) that is getting to you? I don't see how the system is encouraging you to "play up" unless of course you are refering to the Novice division not being offered at tournaments. If you are a true Intermediate player from 2007, your rating would have to be 875+, anything less and you are actually a Recreation player who has been playing up so you wouldn't have to tell people you were in the Recreational division. With 875+ in 2008, you won't be able to play Novice, you will have to play Recreational (or above). Nothing is forcing you to play in Intermediate except pride.


And the incessant, infernal chants of "Bagger" from every player you beat.

If a TD can fill an event with higher rated players who pay higher entry fees, why would they want to deal with the lower divisions?


because thats seldom the case? without Am/Intermediate players, most tournies on the local level would have pathetic payouts and a mere fraction of players.

Is an 889 player (my rating) novice or rec in 2008? (I most likely misread or simply have the wrong chart; nonetheless even as a rec-rated player the "just play intermediate" response will become the new ignorance.

a mere 34-point window to be Int in 2008? why not make the cutoff 875 to 935?

because thats seldom the case? without Am/Intermediate players, most tournies on the local level would have pathetic payouts and a mere fraction of players.




Not true. The system has to account for all market sizes and many now sell out in advance with 90 slots without needing a single player below 900 rating. In places where they are not selling out or with two courses being used, TDs are more likely to offer the divisions below 900.

If a TD can fill an event with higher rated players who pay higher entry fees, why would they want to deal with the lower divisions?


because thats seldom the case? without Am/Intermediate players, most tournies on the local level would have pathetic payouts and a mere fraction of players.

That really depends from tournament to tournament, TD to TD. At that tournament in Birmingham your TD lost money on the Rec division.

One of the not yet considered effects of the new system will be its financial effects on TDs. Most TDs use a scaled entry fee system. Most TDs cover their fixed costs and get their added cash from the profits on the division that pays the highest entry fees. Under the new system, that division is going to get really small in areas where players play according to their rating.

For IOSeries tournaments we've been moving in the direction of all amateur divisions paying the same entry fee. We'll probably move further in that direction in 2008.

a mere 34-point window to be Int in 2008? why not make the cutoff 875 to 935?


Division would potentially be way too big with perhaps over 50% of the PDGA in this range.

and this is a problem? arent those 50% now Rec or Novice in 2008? (and for the record, I don't mind saying I'm now a rec player - I just dont like being told to play up when I'm not ready or willing which is my issue)

Anyhow, promoting the sport involves player retention, no?

I like the idea of PDGA set ratings breaks and just calling the division any name the TD sees fit. Color codes are my preference, especially with the PDGA Course evaluation process and color coding of tees based on difficulty. The terms "Novice" and "Recreational" do not apply to the majority of the people who will play in the those divisions.

I will be running 4 ratings based events this year with only one extra women's divison to provide options for those women who prefer to play with other ladies and mostly for those Professional women who prefer to win cash instead of playing their rating.

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That's Funny Stuff Rhett. I'm on probation :confused: control yourself for the love of god :Dlooks up next time your at Z-Boaz. good times !!

Moral of the story: play where your rating says to play. If you're felling froggy, jump up a division for a tourney or two, but don't call anyone a bagger when they smack you by 20 strokes when your rating says you don't belong up there.

And look at your own rating and deal with it. If you're rated 860 you have no business in Advanced. That's just how it is. Work on your putting and get some consistency in your upshots and bring that rating up through practice instead of playing up two divisions and getting slaughtered. You'll learn a lot more about yourself and how to deal with pressure on the lead card in Rec defending a 2 stroke lead with 5 holes to go as your opponent is heating up than you'll ever learn on the last card in Advanced or Open with a bunch of drunk p�ssed off "better golfers" who are shooting poorly and mad to be on such a crappy card.


My feelings exactly, but unfortunately people around here don't typically tend to see it that way. I truly get upset when people say "just play advanced" when I have yet to reach that level (the ONLY good part of my game is my long arm which is still very inconsistent).

Writing off the fact that many of us Int players want to naturally progress, then nudging us off to slaughter in higher divisions is something people need to be aware of now, because this system is not promoting the sport, nor keeping such players competing because people are smart enough to realize their higher entry fee is most often paying the pro field (there's no incentive in this new rating system to keep Am players competing)

Now we Int players of 2007 have to deal with deciding to play Novice in 2008 or play up in Intermediate. I dont see how this helps the situation when the system itself is now encouraging us lower-rated players to play up a division just to donate our tourney entries to someone already playing the proper division.

???



I feel the exact opposite. The only way for me to get better is to play against the better players. It's the only way to learn from my mistakes, and to improve upon them. When playing in Int. I would notice several mistakes I would make, but had no reason to correct them because I knew I was going to either a) beat most everyone or b) at least cash. With me moving up to the top Am division, esp. with my rating, it's going to be a tough uphill battle, and I dont expect I will cash at any events in this upcoming year. But I know that when I see how the better players play their game then I will know what needs to be worked on (besides putting), and with lots of dedication to practicing my game I know I can succeed.

I'd much rather play with better players in casual bagtag rounds to improve rather than knowingly pay for a beating playing in a higher division in tournament play.

I've yet to place first in Intermediate division in a PDGA-rated round, but I've been in the chase a few times now and its much more rewarding than going into a tourney playing up a division knowing I'm trying to stay out of last place.

I'd much rather play with better players in casual bagtag rounds to improve rather than knowingly pay for a beating playing in a higher division in tournament play.

I've yet to place first in Intermediate division in a PDGA-rated round, but I've been in the chase a few times now and its much more rewarding than going into a tourney playing up a division knowing I'm trying to stay out of last place.



True, but for me to cash with like +12 final score is pathetic. If I am going to receive winnings then it should be due to me playing a very good game of golf, not due to someone else being suckier than I am. I know I can play on an Adv. level because I play frequently with 960 to 980+ rated players and am able to hold my own and even beat them, esp. when there is cash on the line. Like I said in an earlier post, my competitive nature along with my ability to play better amongst better players has been the reason for me moving all the way up to Adv. next year. I have one tournament left this year as Int. and then I'm through with that division.

I'd much rather play with better players in casual bagtag rounds to improve rather than knowingly pay for a beating playing in a higher division in tournament play.

I've yet to place first in Intermediate division in a PDGA-rated round, but I've been in the chase a few times now and its much more rewarding than going into a tourney playing up a division knowing I'm trying to stay out of last place.



True, but for me to cash with like +12 final score is pathetic. If I am going to receive winnings then it should be due to me playing a very good game of golf, not due to someone else being suckier than I am. I know I can play on an Adv. level because I play frequently with 960 to 980+ rated players and am able to hold my own and even beat them, esp. when there is cash on the line. Like I said in an earlier post, my competitive nature along with my ability to play better amongst better players has been the reason for me moving all the way up to Adv. next year. I have one tournament left this year as Int. and then I'm through with that division.



Then why do your last 25 rounds rate you at 884? You gave yourself a lot of chances to do better, yet you did not. Those 960 to 980 player that you "beat" didn't get those ratings by playing 884 rounds, so I don't really understand where you're going with this. Perhaps you beat those players when they were not taking it so seriously. I've taken the pad from Climo many times in handicaps, doubles, and casual play, but only once in a tournament...and the tournament is the only thing that matters. I'm not going to tell people that I can beat Climo because I scored better when we were practicing or having fun.

I also know I can play on an advanced level (about 1 out of every 5 rounds). In my mind, no reason to move up until that becomes 3-4 out of every 5 rounds (in which case my rating will likely be advanced as well).

Climo can play at an "interstellar" level above his rating 1 out of 5 rounds also, as can most players above theirs. That doesn't mean a player should be playing up but should be playing where 3 out of their 5 rounds are currently. When 3 out of 5 are in the next division up, then it's time to consider moving up, even if their rating update is lagging a little behind their performance.

I'd much rather play with better players in casual bagtag rounds to improve rather than knowingly pay for a beating playing in a higher division in tournament play.

I've yet to place first in Intermediate division in a PDGA-rated round, but I've been in the chase a few times now and its much more rewarding than going into a tourney playing up a division knowing I'm trying to stay out of last place.



True, but for me to cash with like +12 final score is pathetic. If I am going to receive winnings then it should be due to me playing a very good game of golf, not due to someone else being suckier than I am. I know I can play on an Adv. level because I play frequently with 960 to 980+ rated players and am able to hold my own and even beat them, esp. when there is cash on the line. Like I said in an earlier post, my competitive nature along with my ability to play better amongst better players has been the reason for me moving all the way up to Adv. next year. I have one tournament left this year as Int. and then I'm through with that division.



Then why do your last 25 rounds rate you at 884? You gave yourself a lot of chances to do better, yet you did not. Those 960 to 980 player that you "beat" didn't get those ratings by playing 884 rounds, so I don't really understand where you're going with this. Perhaps you beat those players when they were not taking it so seriously. I've taken the pad from Climo many times in handicaps, doubles, and casual play, but only once in a tournament...and the tournament is the only thing that matters. I'm not going to tell people that I can beat Climo because I scored better when we were practicing or having fun.



My mental game, and putting have been off, but I've been putting non stop for weeks and my consistency has risen on the course quite a bit now. My mental game hurts me because I get easily distracted and not focused like I should be and I've been working on that by telling people to talk and learning how to tune it out, and focus my attention strictly on my target.

On another note, I dont understand the negativity you're giving me for wanting to move up. Is it wrong trying to improve myself? You dont know me personally, nor have you seen me play so there's no right to judge.

On another note, I dont understand the negativity you're giving me for wanting to move up. Is it wrong trying to improve myself? You dont know me personally, nor have you seen me play so there's no right to judge.


I've seen it and heard it all before, so nothing personal to you. Maybe you are one of the exceptions.

But I stand by my earlier (retracted but quoted) statement that you will learn more about dealing with or applying pressure on the lead card of Rec than you ever will on the last card of Advanced or Open. The last card might be full of better players than you, but they are on the last card because they are shooting crappy that tourney. And very frequently they are mad about shooting poorly.

If your problems are mental, you can work on them better under the pressure of trying to win in Rec with a high Rec rating. If your rating is accurate, playing at the bottom of advanced will do nothing to strengthen your mental game as there is no pressure involved in being in the bottom third of the field and knowing that's where you'll be.

Just my opinion, so you can do what you want. But believe this: the SuperAms will be happy to see you in Advanced. :)

On another note, I dont understand the negativity you're giving me for wanting to move up. Is it wrong trying to improve myself? You dont know me personally, nor have you seen me play so there's no right to judge.


I've seen it and heard it all before, so nothing personal to you. Maybe you are one of the exceptions.

But I stand by my earlier (retracted but quoted) statement that you will learn more about dealing with or applying pressure on the lead card of Rec than you ever will on the last card of Advanced or Open. The last card might be full of better players than you, but they are on the last card because they are shooting crappy that tourney. And very frequently they are mad about shooting poorly.

If your problems are mental, you can work on them better under the pressure of trying to win in Rec with a high Rec rating. If your rating is accurate, playing at the bottom of advanced will do nothing to strengthen your mental game as there is no pressure involved in being in the bottom third of the field and knowing that's where you'll be.

Just my opinion, so you can do what you want. But believe this: the SuperAms will be happy to see you in Advanced. :)



I understand exactly where you're coming from, and can respect your opinion because you're reasons are based on logic and not just bashing a person. From advice given to me by pro's and knowing how well I can truly play if I keep focused and determined because I've seen myself do it many times as well as others seeing me play, the best thing for me is to move up to Adv. because it's the only way to learn. I'm going into the 08 year knowing full well I probably wont cash. I even said that in an earlier post, but in the long run it will be the right choice because I can learn from better players. And when spring starts I can start taking more lessons from Shawn and Juliana, and they will undoubtedly elevate my game to the next level.

Where a player will learn more really depends upon the kind of learner they are. Visual learners will learn more by playing up. Visual learners learn by watching others do something, seeing how it is done. Hands-on learners and externally motivated learners will learn more by playing in the division indicated by their rating.

Maybe Rhett and I are hands-on learners. I know I'm also strongly motivated by the external rewards. Or maybe I'm a visual learner but i don't pay attention when I'm getting my asterisk kicked in Pro Master.

Whatever. I play Pro Master a couple of times a year. Every other year or so I find some reason to play Open. I don't learn much from those experiences. More importantly, I don't have much fun losing. I have the most fun competing for something when it is a close competition. I have the next most fun taking candy from babies.

If my rating stays down, I'm playing Intermediate.

Where a player will learn more really depends upon the kind of learner they are. Visual learners will learn more by playing up. Visual learners learn by watching others do something, seeing how it is done. Hands-on learners and externally motivated learners will learn more by playing in the division indicated by their rating.

Maybe Rhett and I are hands-on learners. I know I'm also strongly motivated by the external rewards. Or maybe I'm a visual learner but i don't pay attention when I'm getting my asterisk kicked in Pro Master.

Whatever. I play Pro Master a couple of times a year. Every other year or so I find some reason to play Open. I don't learn much from those experiences. More importantly, I don't have much fun losing. I have the most fun competing for something when it is a close competition. I have the next most fun taking candy from babies.

If my rating stays down, I'm playing Intermediate.



I would say I'm somewhat of a combination of both. Shawn taught me through both hands on and visual. He would show me what to do by how he would do it, and I caught on quick, but he would be hands on when it was a form issue. If it was a shot technique he would do the shot, and I would emulate.

And also through the KISS philosophy. Keep It Simple Stupid. I picked that up immediately and was able to make much better shots that put me in good positions by the pin, and also how tee pad positioning can change a hole drastically. Thanks to him I know I can play at an Adv. level now. Just a matter of consistently making those 30 footers which I'm getting much better at now since school's out for a few weeks and have more practice time.

I'm still just trying to figure out why there is so much animosity towards me for wanting to move up? I cant seem to get that question answered. Do you fear me or something lol??

I don't think the animosity is directed at you but at your attitude that those who choose to play where their rating places them as making an inferior choice. Many players have and will peak below 900 and stay there or drop back to there as they get older and maybe play less. Those who show signs they might have game for a higher level should use those divisions as stepping stones to hone their game and learn how to win, not just play better as Rhett pointed out. Someday you may see this level again on the way back down.

We don't fear you. We're just tired of you calling us baggers for playing in the division indicated by our rating. And we're tired of you getting discouraged and quitting the game when your unreasonable expectations of improving rapidly by getting your asterisk kicked aren't met. Obviously it isn't you. It is what you represent to us.

At the tournaments I help run, I'm fine if everyone plays where ever they will be happiest.

I'm not calling anyone baggers. I havent once said that to anyone here. I'm simply saying that this is the only way for ME to learn. Not once have I said you all are going to suck unless you move up. I'm a firm believer in the quote "To each his own." I have friends who have decided to move down and it's where they feel comfortable, but it's not for me. I'm simply defending my choice to move up.

And I have even said my expectations may not be met the first year when I stated that I dont expect to cash at all the first year, but will that stop me? No, it will motivate me more to keep practicing, take more lessons, and prove that I can do it.

Just please, show me one post where I have faulted anyone for not moving up. I have stated that moving up is what is best for me. Never once did I say staying/moving down will hurt you.

Here's one:

True, but for me to cash with like +12 final score is pathetic. If I am going to receive winnings then it should be due to me playing a very good game of golf, not due to someone else being suckier than I am.


Those "suckier" players may have shot one of their best events at +13.

Here's one:

True, but for me to cash with like +12 final score is pathetic. If I am going to receive winnings then it should be due to me playing a very good game of golf, not due to someone else being suckier than I am.


Those "suckier" players may have shot one of their best events at +13.



Taken out of context, granted it was worded poorly so I can fault myself for that, but it in no way means they're sucky players. I meant that it's pitiful for "me" to cash with a sucky scores. How can you not feel disappointed with yourself anyway when you shot a bad score, but the only reason you cashed is because someone shot worse?

But it still doesnt answer the question, "Where have I said staying, or moving down will hurt YOU?"

The perception of your attitude has leaked thru not to just me but I'm sure to others who read the words I copied. The fact that you label any score a "bad score" indicates the attitude again. If someone's score including yours is rated in the range of the division you entered, it can't be a "bad score" by definition even though you might not be satisifed with it And, it maybe it won even though the person you beat also shot at or above their rating which also fell in the rating range of the division.

The perception of your attitude has leaked thru not to just me but I'm sure to others who read the words I copied. The fact that you label any score a "bad score" indicates the attitude again. If someone's score including yours is rated in the range of the division you entered, it can't be a "bad score" by definition even though you might not be satisifed with it And, it maybe it won even though the person you beat also shot at or above their rating which also fell in the rating range of the division.



So, what you're saying is that it's wrong to set standards for myself? If one person plays 880 golf and their happy then that's cool with me. They were playing their heart and sould out and for that I respect them, but when I keep shooting these low rounds, after all the practice I do then it utterly pisses me off, even if I do cash and place well. When I work hard at something then I want to see the fruits of my labor, but when they're not met then I feel my play is pitiful and sucky. This is my main reason for moving up, because I dont want to compare myself to another 880 rated player. I need to play against the better Ams. to compare myself and figure out what needs working on. Thus, I set standards of play when I am at a tournament. Some rounds I meet and even exceed my standards, and other fall way short. I then look at what I did right, and try to create consistency, and what I did wrong I work my [censored] off to improve. But for me playing against someone of equal or lower ratings doesnt teach me what I need to succeed. I cant very well watch the Adv. play during a tourney, esp. if I am on a different course so how am I to truly judge my performance? I can say a 57 on a par 54 may be good for my current division and it will place me well, but when I move up I need to realize that 57 will not cut it and so I must work harder and learn from better players.

You just don't seem to get that it's not cool to tell someone who just played their best to match you that they only won because you sucked. But perhaps you'll learn how to handle that when you occasionally beat 980 players and they turn around and congratulate you rather than say you wouldn't have beaten them if they didn't have an off day (not all 980 players but more than not). This whole discussion is about courtesy and sportsmanship, not about your scores and what you internally think about them. You may think you played poorly, the other player may realize you played poorly, but to say out loud that is the reason someone beat you should go unspoken (except maybe your buds :)).

How dare you assume I say crap like that to people who beat me when you've never even met me!? If someone beats me it's because they did play better than me, and I do congratulate them for playing a good game. The worst I ever do is say a curse word here or there when I make a bad shot, but I never and I mean NEVER bad mouth a player because we both play our games and sometimes I do better and sometimes he does better so dont you dare judge me when you dont know me at all! The only person who gets criticized is me.

As much as I disagree with you on almost everything you dont see me on here spreading judgemental notions about you the way you just did.

Golf is a game of, among other things, imperfection, patience, attitude, respect, and responsibility for decisions. It is a game of ups and downs for everyone, and it is also a game where you cannot simply will things into being. Dedication in the form of daily practice undoubtably helps, yet never entitles you to instant success or improvement at all for that matter. It is a game where the better you get, the worse you realize you actually are and were.

I believe it is your impatience and unspoken betrayal of some of the values of golf listed above that have caused a rash of negative comments seemingly directed toward you. Most of us have made these same mistakes in our disc golf journeys, so don't take it too hard. Most golfers believe that they have potential beyond their everyday play, and this is important to stay motivated, however these are thoughts and mantras best kept to one's self. Failure to do so will ultimately make a fool out of you. That's my 2 cents...You obviously love the game right now, so don't set yourself up to hate it by trying to put artificial pressure on yourself, the game itself will apply enough pressure.

How dare you assume I say crap like that to people who beat me when you've never even met me!? If someone beats me it's because they did play better than me, and I do congratulate them for playing a good game.


Again, it's not that you've ever said those words to another player. But words you've posted here earlier indicate that's your attitude about things even if those words have never come out of your mouth. That's all Brakel, Discspeed and I have been discussing, nothing more.

Personally, i will be playing Advanced through the first half of 2008. I've been playing "serious" disc golf for less than a year (i've only played in 2 PDGA tournaments), but have been a disc sports player (ultimate frisbee) for 16 years.

From what i've gathered on these forums, Am Worlds is the "proper" time to move up. I've set my goals for the year to qualify for Am Nationals and Am Worlds, and moving to Open after Am Worlds. Even if i fail to qualify for those tournaments, i feel like this is my rookie/amateur year, and that i should be able to move up after this year's big Am events.


Frankly, I wouldn't want to play in a division named Rec or Novice after I had played for a year or two. I think we're missing what we've all learned from consumer marketing. If we're not using colors, we need division names that all sound like you're pretty good to really good like popcorn sizes that are Humongous, Giant, Super &amp; Large. For disc golf maybe: Expertisimo, Excellente, Superbo and Amateur. Has an international flavor and not a novice in the bunch.



As far as the discussion relating to divisional names, perhaps i'm biased based on my background, but i don't see names such as "Recreational" being problematic. If you're playing in the lowest available competition level, you are a "rec" player, whether you practice a lot, or treat the game seriously. I understand the American culture tries make everyone feel like a winner - it's seen in Tae Kwan Do, where we give various colored belts to make people feel like they've accomplished something, while in traditional Korean TKD, you are a white belt, continue to train for a long time, and eventually test for your black belt. I don't believe we need to make every Joe Schmoe disc golfer into a "Superbo" player. Part of competition and sportsmanship is recognizing your own limitations and coming to terms with them. This isn't to say we don't strive to be better than what we are, but dressing up our divisional names to cater to our egos is antithetical to sportsmanship, regardless of marketing merits.

I've finally got some sleep and am able to de-stress myself. I understand everything that all of you are saying, and while I do not agree with the perception you have of me I do feel if you understood my mind set and not how the words are typed then you'd see how everything has a completely different meaning than what it is being read, but that's my fault for not being able to properly lay out my thoughts.

There you go. That's all we were getting at - just your words typed right here - not questioning you as a person nor questioning your actions. Good luck in the new year.

Just like I was getting at your words, and not you. Why is it that it's always us 2 who disagree with everything, but in the end have the same goal?

Seems like a good time for a poll

I've earned points in five different divisions in some years so the choice is more based on the event and how many have showed up to enter the divisions I could enter.

My opinions on this:

I will play where I belong. In my opinion, it is the main reason to be a PDGA member.

Anyone who calls any PDGA member a bagger is an idiot. Anyone who moves up a division because of this, is way too worried about what others think.

If moving up helps you get better, then move up. You are allowed.

Everyone who belongs in a division lower than me (an Intermediate), please move up, increasing my chances of cashing. All former Advanced players who have ego issues from being "demoted" down to Intermediate, please move up to Advanced, again increasing my cashing odds.

I have played up to Advanced in all local tournaments this year mainly because I know all those players and enjoy playing with them. It is going to be interesting to see which divisions everyone else plays next year, that will have a huge bearing in what division I choose.

I know Michigan will be a place where a lot of the players currently rated 915-934 will move down to intermediate. I know this because I see those guys getting lower rated partners and playing &lt;1830 at Byron Big and Small D Doubles.

Play whichever division is most comfortable for you. A player who's been playing for 6 months and is rated 894 might feel most comfortable in Rec. A person that's rated 894, but been playing for 20 years or so might have more fun in Advanced. The courses you're playing might factor into your decision. There's no single right answer. There's only the right answer for each individual player. Personally, it's unlikely I'll ever play below Advanced again. I reserve the right to change my mind at a future date. :) Someone else might feel differently.

I was gonna play Intermediate on Saturday but now it looks like I'm in the Infirmary division. Inner ear infection. No disc golf this weekend for me. :(

Frankly, I wouldn't want to play in a division named Rec or Novice after I had played for a year or two. I think we're missing what we've all learned from consumer marketing. If we're not using colors, we need division names that all sound like you're pretty good to really good like popcorn sizes that are Humongous, Giant, Super &amp; Large. For disc golf maybe: Expertisimo, Excellente, Superbo and Amateur. Has an international flavor and not a novice in the bunch.



I agree Chuck. The terms recreational and novice stink. They make it sound as if the players in those divisions are just casual. The neutral color system sounds better and it doesn't make someone sound as if they found themselves in a tournament competition by accident. :D



Agreed...I'm not Rec, I'm amateur "red" as of now, maybe "white" after the next few tourneys.. :p

I know i'll never be a yeti, but i wish i could be a samurai! but in all seriousness, hooray for colors. i never wanted to play "novice". I feel like i've played too long to be called that. "terrible" would be an acceptable label, but not novice. i'm not new, i'm just bad. enthusiast sounded sweet.

i guess my hope is that everyone everywhere plays straight by the ratings. I definitely hear what mr. brakel is saying. i understand that up north they play it by the book. and i know when i wandered into texas one time, i was obliterated in intermediate, and then realized that i would have been crushed in recreational also. they too were playing it straight up by the ratings. meanwhile, when i play in south carolina, i can win in intermediate, because people there are seriously jumping up and playing above their rating appropriate division. dudes that should have been in rec (where i should always have been) were up in advanced.

so i understand the trussville confusion at the start of this. it's way different depending on what state you happen to find yourself in.

okay, i just wanted to jump in and ramble. in closing, hooray for trussville, go team brakel, and i'm thinking about changing my sig line to read "i agree with chuck."

I went and played in a mini a few weeks ago where I didnt know most of the players or the course. I asked the the TD where I should play according to my rating. He put me in the division he felt I would play best in. It worked out good because I was competitive with the people I was paired against. Just something to think about powell...