If someone in a group is continually RUSHING the rest of the group could this be a courtesy violation? In this example the person is NOT speaking while the throwers are preparing their shots but just constantly nagging the players who are NOT using excessive time.

Thoughts!?!

That's not good. I've played w/people like that before who are in a hurry to go do something else. It made me want to slow down even more... which I think we ALL did. :p /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

If someone in a group is continually RUSHING the rest of the group could this be a courtesy violation? In this example the person is NOT speaking while the throwers are preparing their shots but just constantly nagging the players who are NOT using excessive time.

Thoughts!?!

The rules specify seven or eight specific courtesy violations. The rules do not suggest that we can make up additional courtesy violations by group consensus. [You didn't say please. That's a stroke. Oh, you're wearing white shoes after Labor Day; there's another stroke.] There are many kinds of annoying talking that do not violate the rules if it is quiet, civil and properly timed.

It is not a courtesy violation for you to tell him, "Enough with that. Everyone here is playing fast enough." Just be quiet, civil, and say it at a proper time.

The subjective part of the courtesy rule is supported by the rule for DQ which includes "overt rudeness" as an offense worthy of punishment. Overt rudeness can mean many things to many people. It doesn't have to be loud and obnoxious to qualify. Courtesy is a common sense sort of thing. If someone acts in a way that is generally rude - as you have sort of suggested - then yes they could be given a warning for courtesy. The best course of action might be to just say something in a civil manner before issuing a warning though - especially if the group was as you say - playing within the rules for time.

Actually, that is false. Maybe "overt rudeness" was included in a prior version of the rules. It is not in the current rules.

The only forms of speech that are included as courtesy violations in the current rules are shouting [at an inappropriate time] and cursing.

Sorry Bruce, you fail reading comprehension 101 ;)


804.05 Disqualification and Suspension

A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present

Actually, that is false. Maybe "overt rudeness" was included in a prior version of the rules. It is not in the current rules.

The only forms of speech that are included as courtesy violations in the current rules are shouting [at an inappropriate time] and cursing.



Actually, that is not false. "Overt rudeness" is right where Craig says it is in the DQ rule.

801.01G Courtesy

G. A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even if from another group, or by an official, with all players of the group advised of the warning. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of any type in the same round. Repeated violations of courtesy rules may result in disqualification in accordance with section 804.05.

Perhaps this part of the rule should be ammended to include doo doo heads - with a specific reference to rudeness as mentioned in 804.05. If rudeness is serious enough to be considered grounds for DQ - it's pretty common sense to me that it would also qualify as a violation of courtesy. We don't really need to reference dictionary definitions for courtesy here do we? I think the "examples" cited in 801.01 are just that - examples - not intended to be an end all/finite list.

There's a difference between knowing what the rules say, and understanding how they are intertwined. We could probably do a better job of clarifying our rules in a number of ways to help make calling and interpreting the rules less subjective, and more objective.

If someone in a group is continually RUSHING the rest of the group could this be a courtesy violation?



I can't stand it when players do that. To me it's more annoying than rude but I do believe there should be a specific rule that prohibits players from continually rushing the other players in the group.

I played in a local mini recently where a person on my card was the first to say "your turn" or "your up, conners" and it happened on virtually every tee box :mad::mad:arrrgggghhhh!!! :mad::mad::mad:

If someone in a group is continually RUSHING the rest of the group could this be a courtesy violation?



I can't stand it when players do that. To me it's more annoying than rude but I do believe there should be a specific rule that prohibits players from continually rushing the other players in the group.

I played in a local mini recently where a person on my card was the first to say "your turn" or "your up, conners" and it happened on virtually every tee box :mad::mad:arrrgggghhhh!!! :mad::mad::mad:



If it was bugging you that much, say something to the guy during the round rather than bellyaching on a message board about it...

Saying "I know its my turn, you don't have to tell me every time." in a nice calm tone should take care of it. If it doesn't, then tell him to shut up.

Stewing over it for the rest of the round can't be good for your game... :D

I played in a local mini recently where a person on my card was the first to say "your turn" or "your up, conners" and it happened on virtually every tee box :mad::mad:arrrgggghhhh!!! :mad::mad::mad:



If he had to say it on virtually every hole - maybe you WERE being a little slow. :)

And in defense of the guy referenced in the first post of this thread - there are some people who are generally slow -who don't recognize that their time to throw starts as soon as it is their turn. There are folks out there who definitely push the limits of what could be considered "a reasonable amount of time" to address their lie. These folks often take well over a minute to take their turn - and are more/equally annoying to play with than the guy urging them on. So.......................shut up and throw!!!

Sorry Bruce, you fail reading comprehension 101 ;)


804.05 Disqualification and Suspension

A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present



No, no, no. We're talking about courtesy violations. See the original post. Different rule. Different penalty. Different enforcement mechanism.

There is an important distinction between 801.01(Courtesy violations) and 804.05 (DQ and Suspension). It boils down to the question: Should a player be allowed to judge "overt rudeness", or should that determination be limited to the TD? Because rudeness is much more subjective, limiting it to the TD may be prudent.

That "overt rudeness" is a courtesy violation is a no-brainer. What constitutes overt rudeness is subject to interpretation.

I think everyone realizes we're talking about courtesy violations. Craiger was only tying in the "overt rudeness" clause of the DQ rule to the courtesy violation rule. Common sense dictates that anything qualifying as overt rudeness would also qualify as a discourteous action.

Data Points:
a) "overt rudeness" is not listed in the rules under courtesy violation
b) "overt rudeness" is listed under the rules for DQ.
c) Courtesy violations can be called by any player or official
d) DQ can only be enacted by TD

My point is that penalizing a player for "overt rudeness" should only be a call a TD can make as it is subjective. This should not be a right given to all players. IMO "overt rudeness" was intentionally left out of the courtesy rules for this reason.

However, since the TD is rarely with a playing group, the players have to have the power to call it. The TD can then listen to the gripe session after the round and decide whether or not the penalty stands.

Mike Conners Said :

I played in a local mini recently where a person on my card was the first to say "your turn" or "your up, conners" and it happened on virtually every tee box arrrgggghhhh!!!


Gangloff said :



If he had to say it on virtually every hole - maybe you WERE being a little slow.

And in defense of the guy referenced in the first post of this thread - there are some people who are generally slow -who don't recognize that their time to throw starts as soon as it is their turn. There are folks out there who definitely push the limits of what could be considered "a reasonable amount of time" to address their lie. These folks often take well over a minute to take their turn - and are more/equally annoying to play with than the guy urging them on. So.......................shut up and throw!!!

I say ,
I agree with Craig gangloff on this .
I am normally a fast player and it annoys me when people play extra slow , especially in any kind of " tourney "
whether it be local mini or big PDGA .
I realize I am probably in the minority on this but it still bears the comment of where do you draw the line , on both sides of the issue .

If someone in a group is continually RUSHING the rest of the group could this be a courtesy violation?



I can't stand it when players do that. To me it's more annoying than rude but I do believe there should be a specific rule that prohibits players from continually rushing the other players in the group.

I played in a local mini recently where a person on my card was the first to say "your turn" or "your up, conners" and it happened on virtually every tee box :mad::mad:arrrgggghhhh!!! :mad::mad::mad:



I actually have a bigger problem with slow play, then someone pushing their group to play faster. I have given countless warnins to my group and others for slow play. You have 30 secs to grab a disc and throw, not 5 mins. If your being reminded more then once, then your probably playing slow.

It bugs me to death that a 18 hole tourney round takes more then 2 hrs to play, I think we should all have stop watches on the course.

Sheesh! I don't play slow and you would know that if you have played golf with me. I've played tournaments all over the nation and no person has ever commented on my pace of play. Nobody likes playing with slow players.

The person I was referring to is not a slow player either, he just can't wait to throw. He also likes to walk just ahead of your lie to get a look at his own lie while you are preparing to throw which is very annoying as well.

It bugs me to death that a 18 hole tourney round takes more then 2 hrs to play



Well, get used to it. As courses are getting bigger and longer, this is direction disc golf is going. We had 2-hour rounds this past weekend with three-somes.

Don't be bashfull Conners, spit it out there!

Data Points:
a) "overt rudeness" is not listed in the rules under courtesy violation
b) "overt rudeness" is listed under the rules for DQ.
c) Courtesy violations can be called by any player or official
d) DQ can only be enacted by TD

My point is that penalizing a player for "overt rudeness" should only be a call a TD can make as it is subjective. This should not be a right given to all players. IMO "overt rudeness" was intentionally left out of the courtesy rules for this reason.



a) but overt rudeness (in 804.05) is included by reference within 801.01 and thereby specifically an inherent part of the rules of courtesy. A point you either fail to recognize, or just choose not to - but which nonetheless, renders b), c) and d) moot.

Other data points. Without any words being uttered, a player can be issued a warning for courtesy for:
1) Advancing up the fairway ahead of the away player
2) Throwing a cigarette butt on the ground
3) Allowing their cigarette smoke to disturb another player
4) padiddling/freestyling anywhere at anytime

If courtesy is about how we behave while on the course, and behavior includes both actions and words, then rudeness is well within the realm for anyone to judge (this is why I first said that "overt rudeness" can mean many things to many people) and well within each players rights to enforce when others are behaving badly. It's part of the nature of self policing and enforcing the rules while we play. In the event a player behaves so badly that the TD must be petitioned to remove (DQ) a player - certainly that level should be left entirely to the TD. But to suggest that I have to put up with someone acting like a jerk just because he's not being loud and obnoxious is not only unreasonable, and unprofessional, but ignores the basic premise of what courtesy is - and how the rules for enforcing it are supported by other rules as well. If you want to put up with it - you go right ahead!! But don't expect me to!!

Back to the original posters premise - whiile perhaps annoying - it didn't sound like the guy was being overly aggressive -but hey - we werent there so who knows? I have dealt with situations similar to this in the past and although it can be difficult - the best way is just to be as polite as possible and ask the offending player to refrain from further comment on the subject. Something like " Dude, I've been watching, and no-one seems to be pushing their time limit - so until that happens, could you just leave it alone"?

Suggesting that rudeness was left out of the courtesy rules due to being overly subjective also suggests one of the following
1) that the RC thinks its ok to act like a jerk - right up until the point that your DQ'd......or
2) that players would be so petty as to call someone for rudeness due to gamesmanship or intolerance of perceived annoying personal habits.

I just don't think that is the case.

Sorry Bruce, you fail reading comprehension 101 ;)


804.05 Disqualification and Suspension

A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present



No, no, no. We're talking about courtesy violations. See the original post. Different rule. Different penalty. Different enforcement mechanism.


So in your mind Bruce, unsportsmanlike conduct not severe enough to render disqualification should not be subject to the rules of courtesy?

a) but overt rudeness (in 804.05) is included by reference within 801.01



801.01 states that the escalation for repeated courtesy violations is 804.05. It does not imply that everything from 804.05 should be considered a courtesy violation.

Even though you might think its rude to talk trash between throws, as long as it is not while you are throwing, you can't really issue courtesy violations. It's way too subjective.

Someone could be overtly rude by glaring at you and not speaking to you except when required by the rules, but you can't stroke them for that either.


Suggesting that rudeness was left out of the courtesy rules due to being overly subjective also suggests one of the following
2) that players would be so petty as to call someone for rudeness due to ... intolerance of perceived annoying personal habits.



I'm suggesting that the RC did indeed think through things and considered #2. The RC did away with the "where last seen" part of the lost disc relief because it was too subjective. Seems perfectly plausible that they try to keep subjectivity out of the rules for courtesy as well.

Put up with what you will, I will do likewise. Those two things just might not be the same

It bugs me to death that a 18 hole tourney round takes more then 2 hrs to play



Well, get used to it. As courses are getting bigger and longer, this is direction disc golf is going. We had 2-hour rounds this past weekend with three-somes.



I dream of 2 hour tourney rounds, out here in Cali the norm is 3, 4 and some 5 hour tourney rounds it's excrutiating

James

Thanx for the input guys. I'm a TD in Kentucky and this question was brought to me after a tourney. There was no ruling to make because the event had been over for a few days before I knew about the problem. I told the player that in the future I would think that a polite warning would solve the problem and if not I would think that it's NOT curtious to continually badger the other players (as long as they are playing with in their aloted times) and therefore would consider it a courtesy violation.

I am a person that thinks.." Just throw all ready." I get very impatient with people that don't have the disc they intend to throw in hand. I guess I just need to work on that for my own sanity cause I know they are in no hurry to change.

I think this is a really important and interesting topic. Lets take a look at the other side.

I've always been pretty quick about my play. I've heard enough complaining about slow tournaments and slow players that I tried to keep up the pace. I've discovered something. When I look at the top players none of them are pushing... none.

Those guys take the time to find the right disc, look at the hole, check out where they are, then make their throw. After watching the top players, I began slowing down my pace and taking more time to think out my shots and what I was trying to accomplish. My game has improved significantly for that.

I understand wanting a faster pace, but I'd think carefully about what my goal is and whether I thought that pace helped or hindered my game.

Lyle: I like your spin on this matter as I have to agree with you there.
I am a young, tall, and slender guy. I walk way faster than anyone else in any of my groups. I have to repeatedly be told by my friends and especially girlfriend to SLOW down when I'm walking towards my shots because I leave everyone behind. I don't mean to rush people in that way, but I have long strides and I guess I get excited to play.

Besides this though, I don't do anything else nearly as fast. I slowed down my time at the tee pad so I could set up some type of repeated action before each shot. I eye up my target.. visualize the line, give one quick practice toss at the edge of the pad, and then I am ready to throw. This has improved my game immensely because I actually have an identical system for my shots and then my shots start to become more accurate and uniform. I am not slow in any way though. I am still well under a minute for "my shot time" and I haven't heard any complaints since I started this routine.

I agree with both sides of the argument because I also don't like players that RUSH you through the round and I also don't like players that seem to be blatantly taking excessive amounts of time for each shot. I understand getting stuck behind a tree is a tough lie, but 4 minutes to pick out your shot because you need to try out different stances and angles isn't my problem!

Some people play the game for fun and many others play the game as a serious matter like in tournaments. What it all comes down to is that most players probably don't know they are doing anything wrong UNTIL they are TOLD so. If you can try to be civil and friendly about speaking of these issues it can help to get your point across and keep everyone cool and happy still. I've been known to start talking with my group and totally forget to take scores or even forget that I'm up to throw. In this case the players would kindly let me know that I'm up and that was it.

If you think someone is being "rude" or if you really think they are not being "courteous" let them know about it and see how they feel. Then take the corrective action that you or your group or your TD might feel fit.

-Scott Lewis

P.s. 1 minute per shot for each player in a group translates out to 216 Minutes for a 4some shooting all pars on a par 54. that's 3 hours and 36 minutes. That DOESN"T include walking time or anything else.... just time that is "allowed" to be taken on shots.
WIth courses Moving to par 56,58, or higher you unfortunately can expect to have LONGER tournament rounds.

P.s. 1 minute per shot for each player in a group translates out to 216 Minutes for a 4some shooting all pars on a par 54. that's 3 hours and 36 minutes. That DOESN"T include walking time or anything else.... just time that is "allowed" to be taken on shots.
WIth courses Moving to par 56,58, or higher you unfortunately can expect to have LONGER tournament rounds.



It takes two seconds to tap in for birdie :D

It takes two seconds to tap in for birdie :D



Unless you mark your disc, clean it, put it back, pull out your putter, etc.

Lots of people take their time on those when they could just step up behind the parked disc and drop in the first disc they pull from their bag. I've never understood it. Inside of a certain distance you shouldn't waste focus power.

P.s. 1 minute per shot for each player in a group translates out to 216 Minutes for a 4some shooting all pars on a par 54. that's 3 hours and 36 minutes. That DOESN"T include walking time or anything else.... just time that is "allowed" to be taken on shots.
WIth courses Moving to par 56,58, or higher you unfortunately can expect to have LONGER tournament rounds.



It takes two seconds to tap in for birdie :D



Per 801.03, (804.02 for the first tee) only 30 seconds is allowed, I guess that figures more toward 108 minutes.

It takes two seconds to tap in for birdie :D



Unless you mark your disc, clean it, put it back, pull out your putter, etc.

Lots of people take their time on those when they could just step up behind the parked disc and drop in the first disc they pull from their bag. I've never understood it. Inside of a certain distance you shouldn't waste focus power.



LOL! If it's a really windy day it may take longer to make that 15 foot birdie putt :D

gnduke: Good call.. Sorry for the mistake.. I posted in haste! So yeah.. your math would be right there.. and I'm hoping that I am also still inside that time.. (I'll have to go out and time myself one day soon).

-Scott Lewis

30 seconds is really a long time for a shot in the open.

It gets kind of tight when you are searching for a way out of the schule though.

The rule says 30 seconds, but anytime a player is distracted the clock resets.

801.03 Excessive Time
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:

(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions.

Is it possible this rule implies that 30 seconds is only for when you have a wide open shot? Since having a tree or wall of trees between you and the basket could easily be seen as a distraction.

would it ever be possible to find out who actually wrote this rule (or others) to find out their intentions? Maybe they figured they would give time to those in the shule but if you are in the fairway you'd better throw in 30 seconds.

btw... not defending my playing style @ all here... i'm more of a grip it and rip it kinda guy. (prob. should put more thought into things but thats another story)

Is it possible this rule implies that 30 seconds is only for when you have a wide open shot? Since having a tree or wall of trees between you and the basket could easily be seen as a distraction.

would it ever be possible to find out who actually wrote this rule (or others) to find out their intentions? Maybe they figured they would give time to those in the shule but if you are in the fairway you'd better throw in 30 seconds.





The 30 second rule was written a long time ago. It was originally intended to keep players from waiting for the wind to die down before they took a shot, possibly to keep play moving also. Dan Roddick probably wrote the rule.

30 seconds is really a long time for a shot in the open.

It gets kind of tight when you are searching for a way out of the schule though.



I thought that the time didn't start until you got to your disc as in actually AT your disc, not when you get to the general area of your disc.

Sooooo in Anita's world, you get 30 seconds from the time you have chopped your way through the shule or down the bank and are actually marking your lie. THEN the clock starts.

Unlike her choice of collegiate athletics, Anita is totally right in this one. But, can excessive slow play (outside of the limitations cited in the rule) be considered a courtesy foul??

801.03
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,
(2) the player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions.

B. A player shall receive a warning for the first excessive time violation if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent excessive time violation in the same round if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.

I think you misunderstood my meaning Anita.

I did not intend to imply that 30 seconds was not a lot of time because of the time needed to reach a disc in the shule. I meant that if often takes additional time to find a beneficial route out of the shule before the process of making the shot can begin.

Thread drift alert!



Unlike her choice of collegiate athletics, Anita is totally right in this one.



How is the view up there on the old football band wagon? Gettin' might crowded I bet.

:D

Back to the subject at hand.....

Thread drift alert!



Unlike her choice of collegiate athletics, Anita is totally right in this one.



How is the view up there on the old football band wagon? Gettin' might crowded I bet.

:D

Back to the subject at hand.....



Nah, we'll keep drifting for a moment.

First of all, I know that Anita works for the University of Nebraska, is not just a fan. Of course, we know what the "N" on the Nebraska helmet stands for ("knowledge") :)

It's so much fun to bash Nebraska when they're down....sort of like they thought about the rest of the Big 8/12 when the CornShuckers used to run up 60 and 70 points on their opponents.

Chap

and, no, I'm on no bandwagon. Except the Royals...

Then you shouldn't complain about my alma mater too much as Alex Gordon is a Southeast High grad and a proud member of the scarlet and the cream (like me on both counts). He looks good in that KC Royals blue. :D

Hey yuck it up while you can, Chap. :D
Actually I don't begrudge any delight in Nebraska's woes this year. It's been a long dry spell for most teams in the Big 8/12 against Nebraska in football.