Here's one that came up and elicited several different opinions from the members of my group and from folks I talked to later.

As I set for my putt, I notice that the chains are not hanging properly. What happens? What is (are) the applicable rule(s)?

This falls under the "known to become a factor during the round clause"

We had an even trickier one in the Final 9 of the Mid-Nats. Someone had slid a 2' long 1" wide stick thru the openings in the first basket. It wasn't noticed until the first group had played a few throws. Is it OK to remove the stick even though it's in front of everyone's lie? If so, then why can't you move a stick that's in the way of your roller shot you want to play?

one can assume that the basket was intended to be in normal condition prior to the start of hte round. therefore, adjustments can be made. (CK's stick question is stickier tho - sounds like a TD call)

This falls under the "known to become a factor during the round clause"


That's what I thought and how I proceeded, however as soon as my hand touched the chains, another member of the group told me that I was not allowed to adjust the chains because it was between me and the hole... After I putted out on the maladjusted chain assembly, he allowed me to fix it for the rest of our group. I figured may as well go with this guy's interpretation for the time being and not make a huge deal (especially since the how the chains hang shouldn't have affected my 10 footer).

IMO you can move the chain, because the rule you are referring to specifically says that you may not move an obstacle that is between the lie and the hole.... It does not say including the hole, and the chains are a part of the hole, not an obstacle....

Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A
player may not move, alter, bend, break,
or hold back any part of any obstacle,
including casual obstacles, between the lie
and the hole, with one exception: A player
may move obstacles between the lie and
the hole that became a factor during
the round, such as spectators, players�
equipment, open gates, or branches that
fell during the round. Where it is not
known if an obstacle has become a factor
during a round, it shall not be moved. It
is legal for a player�s throwing motion to
make incidental movement of an obstacle.

Hole: The target that must be reached
in order to complete that segment of the
course. The term �hole� also refers to the
numbered segments of the course that are
separate units for scoring.

This falls under the "known to become a factor during the round clause"


That's what I thought and how I proceeded, however as soon as my hand touched the chains, another member of the group told me that I was not allowed to adjust the chains because it was between me and the hole... After I putted out on the maladjusted chain assembly, he allowed me to fix it for the rest of our group.



How nice of him. Assuming he knew what he was talking about regarding obstacles in front of your lie (he didn't), the same should have gone for every other player to follow.

[QUOTE]
After I putted out on the maladjusted chain assembly, he allowed me to fix it for the rest of our group.



How nice of him to allow you to fix the chains for everyone but yourself. :(

This falls under the "known to become a factor during the round clause"


That's what I thought and how I proceeded, however as soon as my hand touched the chains, another member of the group told me that I was not allowed to adjust the chains because it was between me and the hole... After I putted out on the maladjusted chain assembly, he allowed me to fix it for the rest of our group.



How nice of him. Assuming he knew what he was talking about regarding obstacles in front of your lie (he didn't), the same should have gone for every other player to follow.


Absolutely! Like I said, I decided to play in his little rules world. I knew he was wrong. He's just one of those players that we all decided to humor for the weekend.

I hope in the future you guys have the gumption to tell someone like that to put a sock in it and play the game!

There is no way you can say that the chain, that is part of the Hole, is an obstacle between the Hole and the Lie. What would a group do if they came upon a temp Hole and noticed that it was on its side, knocked over by the wind or something? Would you tee off as-is or right the Hole? And if after you picked it up and the chains were tangled, would you leave them? Probably not. You would fix it.

Players like that should be penalized for stupidity. They need to stop calling non-existent rules or maybe stop smoking whatever it is they were smoking.... Get a life...Loser rule maker-upper go home!

That's right...even though the deflection assembly is completely optional and therefore quite arguably should be considered an "obstacle," it's still defined as part of the target if it is present, isn't it? I'd forgotten that detail.

So here is one that I was asked this past weekend. A basket on the course here has been struck by the Park and Rec mower one to many times. This has resulted in the loss of a bit of the bottom part of the basket and now a disc can fall straight out the bottom of the basket.

Question 1: Can a player put a disc or something else in the bottom of the pan to block that hole, before they putt?
Question 2: If they can put a disc in the basket, can they put one in the chains to make the chains more solid?

My take is that since the basket has been damaged they may place something in the bottom of the basket to stop the disc from falling through. By the way, we have fixed the basket with wire several times and each time someone removes the wire. We have tried welding something into the spot, but the galvanized baskets don't take welds very well and it keeps breaking off as well. I am not sure if a disc is legal, but maybe a towel or replacing the wire if it was near the basket.

As for placing something in the chains, well the basket is damaged and placing something in the pan is an attempt to bring it back to normal, the chains are the same as they have always been and now you are modifying the basket and changing the target should not be allowed.

I hate to suggest contacting the manufacturer and getting a new basket. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Barring that... this only REALLY matters in a tournament. :D
The TD can patch it up enough to work for the tournament. Putting another disc in there to prevent a drop through could just as easily result in a bounce out. I've seen it happen. Just get a new basket portion of the pole hole and be done with it.

With these baskets, it would be an all new replacement, not just a pan replacement.

Regardless, any comments on rules?

For a tournament, the TD would be responsible for either a) installing a temporary/permanent fix or b) explaining the proper procedures for dealing with any that fall through. He could even declare the broken basket to be treated as an object target.

If you are out casually, you are the TD.

In a tournament, if you know there's a problem basket, you should ask in the player meeting. If it takes you by surprise, call the putt good, play a provisional, write down both scores and ask the TD.

For tournaments, why not place a portable nearby?

I think there are several good solutions here. More than likely we will be replacing the basket before the next tournament. If not I will be putting so much wire on the basket that it will take any player a while to remove it. In the mean time, in our day to day mini's the basket can be fixed one week and the wire pulled loose the next. So just for the mini's how would you guys/gals rule on someone placing something in the bottom of the basket to stop a fall through? One comment was that a disc is just as likely to bounce out as fall through. On these baskets, the pan is deep enough that bouncing out, from striking the bottom is very unlikely. On the one basket, I am wondering about, the following work has been done over the last couple of years:

- First year someone decided to jump on the pan and we had to reweld it as best we could.
- Later that same year the city Park and Rec mower knocked the pan completely loose and we had it rewelded.
- The second year the city mower hit it and wrecked the wiring. We bent it back into shape and used a heavy gage wire to attempt to close the widened hole.
- Later the second year the city mower hit it and they rewleded it back to the pole. The galvanized pole and basket did not weld well so they added metal.

Ever since then we fix the holes in the pan and someone unfixes them. So how do I rule during mini's? I hate to say the basket is an obstacle only, because we did that for several month's when the pan was loose and lieing on the ground and we constantly had arguements about whether the chains had been touched or not. I have had multiple people come in and say the disc fell through and I have stated that the rule requires the disc come to rest in or supported by the basket, so if it fell through it cannot be counted. I even had one player that had fixed the basket one month have a disc fall through the next, because someone had unfixed his repairs. He was a little perturbed about it.

I know that someone is going to say that it is just a mini, but the question is still the same, can I put something in the bottom of a basket to stop a disc falling through? If I can put something in a basket, can I put something in the chains?

If it's non-PDGA like leagues and the minis(?), you can do what works for you.

- First year someone decided to jump on the pan and we had to reweld it as best we could.
- Later that same year the city Park and Rec mower knocked the pan completely loose and we had it rewelded.
- The second year the city mower hit it and wrecked the wiring. We bent it back into shape and used a heavy gage wire to attempt to close the widened hole.
- Later the second year the city mower hit it and they rewleded it back to the pole. The galvanized pole and basket did not weld well so they added metal.




I think that it's time to hold a fund raising mini or two.
Advertise the need for a basket replacement at your local courses, add $5.00 to the entry fee and with only 30 people in each event you've got $300 to order a new Discatcher. Put out a cup for donations, too. We replaced 18 baskets that way.

Craig

At the MSDGC, someone asked me to fix the chains on a ChainStar - this is the only type of basket I have had an issue with the chains settling in the wrong location. I remeber replying to the effect of, huh, never really had to ask someone to do that. But I did it anyway. By the end of the round, I remember having to fix the chains another 4 more times, TWICE for me. I figured once it happened once, it was unlucky not to do it.

I should add - if someone is lining up to putt, and they notice that the chains are tangled, and they ask me to fix them, I would gladly oblige. There are probably others who would refuse, since that would break the concentration of the putter who requested it. If it's a course related issue, such as tangled chains that are basically a residual effect of the group before, it seems that you should be able to ask a fellow player to fix the problem.

So here is one that I was asked this past weekend. A basket on the course here has been struck by the Park and Rec mower one to many times. This has resulted in the loss of a bit of the bottom part of the basket and now a disc can fall straight out the bottom of the basket.

Question 1: Can a player put a disc or something else in the bottom of the pan to block that hole, before they putt?
Question 2: If they can put a disc in the basket, can they put one in the chains to make the chains more solid?

My take is that since the basket has been damaged they may place something in the bottom of the basket to stop the disc from falling through. By the way, we have fixed the basket with wire several times and each time someone removes the wire. We have tried welding something into the spot, but the galvanized baskets don't take welds very well and it keeps breaking off as well. I am not sure if a disc is legal, but maybe a towel or replacing the wire if it was near the basket.

As for placing something in the chains, well the basket is damaged and placing something in the pan is an attempt to bring it back to normal, the chains are the same as they have always been and now you are modifying the basket and changing the target should not be allowed.


At the first World's that Climo won there was a basket on one of the final holes played that had this problem and with John Houck ( the Tournament Director ) looking on, Sam Grizaffi, in a nose to nose battle with Ken, made a putt that fell through the bottom of the basket and John said it was not in. As a result Sammy lost by one stroke. I've always thought this was one of the worst decisions made in competition since the putt was made and the basket was not Sam's responsibility. I personally believe that as long as everyone is close enough to see that it was in the basket then the ruling should be just that ... it was in the basket.

- Later that same year the city Park and Rec mower knocked the pan completely loose and we had it rewelded.
- The second year the city mower hit it and wrecked the wiring. We bent it back into shape and used a heavy gage wire to attempt to close the widened hole.
- Later the second year the city mower hit it and they rewleded it back to the pole. The galvanized pole and basket did not weld well so they added metal.

What are they mowing down there I thought all you guys had was dust. J/K let the park know that they did this and see what they could do to help. You never know.

No, that basket should have been fixed before the tourney. Shame on them for not doing so.

I think there are several good solutions here. More than likely we will be replacing the basket before the next tournament. If not I will be putting so much wire on the basket that it will take any player a while to remove it. In the mean time, in our day to day mini's the basket can be fixed one week and the wire pulled loose the next. So just for the mini's how would you guys/gals rule on someone placing something in the bottom of the basket to stop a fall through? One comment was that a disc is just as likely to bounce out as fall through. On these baskets, the pan is deep enough that bouncing out, from striking the bottom is very unlikely. On the one basket, I am wondering about, the following work has been done over the last couple of years:

- First year someone decided to jump on the pan and we had to reweld it as best we could.
- Later that same year the city Park and Rec mower knocked the pan completely loose and we had it rewelded.
- The second year the city mower hit it and wrecked the wiring. We bent it back into shape and used a heavy gage wire to attempt to close the widened hole.
- Later the second year the city mower hit it and they rewleded it back to the pole. The galvanized pole and basket did not weld well so they added metal.

Ever since then we fix the holes in the pan and someone unfixes them. So how do I rule during mini's? I hate to say the basket is an obstacle only, because we did that for several month's when the pan was loose and lieing on the ground and we constantly had arguements about whether the chains had been touched or not. I have had multiple people come in and say the disc fell through and I have stated that the rule requires the disc come to rest in or supported by the basket, so if it fell through it cannot be counted. I even had one player that had fixed the basket one month have a disc fall through the next, because someone had unfixed his repairs. He was a little perturbed about it.

I know that someone is going to say that it is just a mini, but the question is still the same, can I put something in the bottom of a basket to stop a disc falling through? If I can put something in a basket, can I put something in the chains?



Perhaps someone should inform the parks and rec people that they have a disc golf course on the property and advise their maintenance staff of the same.

That's really sad that the owner of the park/course is working against you in this regard. I love private courses :D

We had an even trickier one in the Final 9 of the Mid-Nats. Someone had slid a 2' long 1" wide stick thru the openings in the first basket. It wasn't noticed until the first group had played a few throws. Is it OK to remove the stick even though it's in front of everyone's lie? If so, then why can't you move a stick that's in the way of your roller shot you want to play?



DUDE! that rule is the stupidest rule, honestly, there is a danger factor that comes into play and yes it has happened to me in a live round situation and yes I have been injured by this rule being upheld.

bottom line, this rule is honestly is not nessisary.

or instead it will stay like this
"hey guys.. can I please move this stick, it's precariously sticking skyward 2 feet in front of my lie, I want to jump putt, but I'm afraid ill go to the hospital with a stick impaled in my stomach.
I want to put my all into making this putt, please let me move it."

"no, have a fun ambulance though, maybe they will turn the siren on for you, it will cost you another 300 dollars though, about HALF of first place."

"haha, thats just for the siren though"

this was all hypothetical mind you, however, it makes you think about the big picture.

THE RULE NEEDS TO GO.

(you have just read 2 cents worth of information)

I think I missed the smilies in that last post.

"Could someone drain this creek in front of me? I want to jump putt from the edge of it and don't want to get my feet wet"

Give me a break. If you think you might impale yourself on a stick, try a different throw.

(you have just read 2 cents worth of information)



I think you have overvalued your info.

Quote:
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(you have just read 2 cents worth of information)


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I think you have overvalued your info.






:) PRICELESS!

(you have just read 2 cents worth of information)



I think you have overvalued your info.



chuckle of the day.....

Thanks Alacrity. Glad you enjoyed it.

I hope the answers you have received are not too flippant or beside the point. Truthfully, you have a more serious problem than repairing the basket. Nonetheless, I think the best thing to do is to keep repairing it with wire. That repair makes it most like the original design. Placing a disc over the "hole" in the bottom seems problematic to me, even though for a non-sanctioned tourney you can do whatever you want.

The real solution is to get with the parks people and point out to them that they are destroying the baskets. If that doesn't help, you can always go "up the chain" as it were and lobby the County/City Board/Council - whatever the gov't situation is out there.

If there's a city golf course, ask if they wouldn't immediately replace a broken flag stick or fix a torn up green?

Well, with the help of a local charitable group, we are replacing all the baskets, so that should take care of the problem in the future. With the City paying for half of the baskets, and our comments on the cause of the problem, hopefully, basket damage by city mowers will be reduced or eliminated altogether.