First off, before I start, juniors and intermediate women should always get paid 100% to incourage them to return.

All other divisions should not.

Paying 100% of a field is just as bad as having multiple divisions - the same idea of having multiple winners is carried through.

I thought that the Sugarbrush NT paid all 4 pro women was a little rediculous. I know I am going to get attacked for saying this but it is the truth. If they had done the same in Open or Masters there would have been a huge deal about it.

Thoughts?

I "try" to pay 100% of the Women when I can... :D

When a "certain" sum of ADDED cash is achieved, it is NOT HARD to do this. ;)
I have been fortunate enough to be able to EQUAL the womens entry AFTER fees, at a few of my past events :D


Why not reward them for coming out to play?...as long as I am meeting my other financial obligations.. :confused:
We need to encourage MORE play by women any way we can, as TD's :D

<ul type="square"> #1: it's encourage with an 'e'
#2: it's ridiculous with an 'i' not an 'e'
#3: why should only intermediate women be paid 100%? Why not advanced women, or pro women? We have 10 times as many men to women in our sport. Why not do everything possible to encourage women's participation? When you have over $10,000 in added cash, does paying out a few hundred dollars to the 3rd and 4th place Open women really matter? [/list]

# 1 - I know I can't spell. The goal of communication is for me to send a message to others and have it be intrepreted as it was meant by the sender. If I spell rediculous like that instead of correctly and you understand that I meant to say ridiculous, well then, according to my goal, communication was achieved.

# 2 Proof of number 1 "Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist &amp; lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses &amp; you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."

#3 Women are a minority. Minorities want to be treated equal. Paying them 100% of the rest of the field 45% is not equal. The reason you pay the intermediate women 100% and no one else is b/c you want the women to come out and compete. Once they enjoy competition and move up to higher divisions, they should compete.

Like I said, look at what I'm saying with an open mind. We have people on here (including me) going nuts over adding a division. Is that not the same thing as paying 100% Are the same complaints not valid either way?

Also, I said that if this happened in a mens division, people would go nuts.....the only reason anyone is defending it is b/c it is women involved.

Player packs.

The PGA's British Open.

The World Series in baseball.
The Super Bowl in football.
The Stanley Cup.
The NBA Championships.

Seems to me that in sports that truly have a professional level, winners get paid more, but everyone gets paid.

im not a fan of player packs that are taken from entry and until they were mandated, did not offer them.

golf is golf. let them do what they want :D

The PGA's British Open.



But can you go register for and play in the British Open? No you must be a "Qualified Touring Professional".

Nothing personal just not a valid comparison.

The PGA's British Open.



But can you go register for and play in the British Open? No you must be a "Qualified Touring Professional".

Nothing personal just not a valid comparison.



exactly.

my mom has never played disc golf a day in her life. She could have registered for the PDGA and played the event, shot 4 400 rated rounds and cashed.

The PGA's British Open.



But can you go register for and play in the British Open? No you must be a "Qualified Touring Professional".

Nothing personal just not a valid comparison.



exactly.

my mom has never played disc golf a day in her life. She could have registered for the PDGA and played the event, shot 4 400 rated rounds and cashed.



And if she enjoyed it, receiving the 'payout' might be what it'd take to keep her coming back. She could be the next woman's world champion thanks to someone providing some extra encouragement.

Same could be said if you paid out the 1st out of cash in Open.

The PGA's British Open.



But can you go register for and play in the British Open? No you must be a "Qualified Touring Professional".

Nothing personal just not a valid comparison.



exactly.

my mom has never played disc golf a day in her life. She could have registered for the PDGA and played the event, shot 4 400 rated rounds and cashed.



She'd probably also slap you for the way you spell, but what does that prove?

Same could be said if you paid out the 1st out of cash in Open.



EXACTLY!!!!

Holy crap colin, are me and you agreeing?!? :D

The PGA's British Open.



But can you go register for and play in the British Open? No you must be a "Qualified Touring Professional".

Nothing personal just not a valid comparison.



exactly.

my mom has never played disc golf a day in her life. She could have registered for the PDGA and played the event, shot 4 400 rated rounds and cashed.



And if she enjoyed it, receiving the 'payout' might be what it'd take to keep her coming back. She could be the next woman's world champion thanks to someone providing some extra encouragement.



Don't you find this a little ridiculous? Don't you think its sad that my mother could have NEVER played disc golf a day in her life, show up at the 2nd highest level of competition our sport offers, played against a 3 time world champion and the current world champion, and then placed and was offically a professional athlete?

this is an example of how our are losing our professional aspect in competition.

As much as I make fun of the USDGC b/c they can't figure out registration, it is the ONLY tournament in our sport where not everyone can play.

We need more like that.

As much as I make fun of the USDGC b/c they can't figure out registration, it is the ONLY tournament in our sport where not everyone can play.


http://bwbda.com/ec2007/

As much as I make fun of the USDGC b/c they can't figure out registration, it is the ONLY tournament in our sport where not everyone can play.


http://bwbda.com/ec2007/



ok, well it is one of the only...

just a random thought....

what is crazy is the arguments that people are making FOR paying all the women are the exact same arguments people are making AGAINST more divisions....

If the intent is to attract or retain more players that represent a lower percentage of our membership, it would seem like we should have policies to pay out additional places to other minority groups? Take your pick.

If the intent is to attract or retain more players that represent a lower percentage of our membership,



yeah we do that in the lower divisions, NOT the PRO divisions....

4 out of 12 and then the next pays 4 out of 4.....and the PDGA will do NOTHING about it....

# 2 Proof of number 1 "Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist &amp; lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses &amp; you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."


I agree with everything else you've said, except for this. The problem is that you do it only sporadically. If you did it with every word, as you did in that paragraph, there would be less of an issue. That study does not apply to the occasion when one spells only an occasional word incorrectly. When one word stands out as incorrect, it throws people. When every word is spelled incorrectly it can be read smoothly because nothing is out of the ordinary.


-Chris.

i can argue the decision to pay all 4 women from both sides.

i was the TD and made the decision to pay all 4.

on one hand i have a philosophical problem with paying all places in ANY division. if it is a competitive tournament and you decide to compete then you shouldn't be assured of a payoff based on your performance. i could also argue that it isn't fair to the top women players that their payout is lessened because a TD decides to pay all in their division.

but if we don't will the women that are paying entry fees event after event stop entering, which will in turn lessen the payout for the top women?

i don't think one can compare the men to the women. in the men's and masters fields because there is a larger field more players have a chance to cash. if i paid 1/2 the women in a small women's field the lesser-skilled women would probably have almost no chance of cashing. in a decent-sized men's field there is more likelihood that 4 hot rounds could get you into the money.

dan doyle

thanks for commenting Dan and being able to see both sides.

I just don't think a cash reward is a great way to "will" these women into coming.

I think something like the Virginia open does is a classy way of handleing your thoughts (they give all the women flowers but then pay just those who cash)


and after thinking, you are right, the women are def. a different style and should be treated differently than men. However, I just feel paying them all is not the way to handle it for the reasons I have already mentioned.

I am all about seeing more women play disc golf. Tomorrow I leave to marshal the US Women's event for the 3rd year in a row in hopes of finding out 'what women want'. I have tried to offer incentives in past tournaments but no matter what most TDs do across the country, they are still not getting that many women to show up to their events.

We have had this discussion for a few years here in Wisconsin about how small divisions, trophies, and payouts should be handled.

Let's just throw out a scenario that is very common here and in other areas of the country:

Woman A plans to play in a WI Tour event which are all PDGA B-Tier events (as of last year).

NO OTHER WOMEN show up to play against her but she still elects to play because she wants to 1 WI Tour point.

Let's just say Woman A paid $40 to play that given day and now we must look at some other things which factor in. Almost all divisions are subject to the following per person deductions:

- $3 PDGA B-Tier fee
- $2 WI Developmental Fund Fee
- $1 WI Tour Fund
- $1 Insurance, Park fees, (far too low but I'll under-estimate)

Now her entry is down to $33 and that's what goes into the purse according to the PDGA.

Now...she will get a non-contested PDGA win, 1 WI Tour Point, 1 really cool looking black 'coveted' WI Tour custom disc, and an event trophy (which could range from $4 to $24).

SO .... how much should she get for payout?



** Keep in mind that I'm not picking on women or any small divisions. However, this is a very realistic scenario that happens often and no one seems to have a good way to address it. THROWING money at these women has not increased attendance in the past 10 years so I don't think that's the answer anymore.

Please tell me a hobby where I can put in X amount of money and as long as I stick around for 8 hours I am guaranteed to get double X? I'd play those odds all day long.

One question. Do other divisions pay for their trophies out of entry fees or are they covered as event overhead ?

THROWING money at these women has not increased attendance in the past 10 years so I don't think that's the answer anymore.



Maybe reduced entry fees and paying out deeper, including 100% at some tournaments, has been one of the few incentives that have actually kept women's attendance steady the past 10 years!

Additionally, whenever I see threads like this about women in disc golf, attendance, incentives, etc. I always think to myself, why don't TDs and organizers in our sport ASK women what they want instead of trying to decide for them? Why not ask the four smiling women at the tournament how they felt about it?

Just for the sake of argument we'll say that the trophies aren't even a concern here. Although, I do know that some TDs go out and spend even $15 on a trophy but when there is a division of one a trophy seems silly.

Or worse ... they spend $10 on each of 3 trophies and they end up with a division of one. However, the catch is when you get one trophy and then 5 women show up.

Anyway - just for the sake of discussion let's say the event eats the trophy costs.


One question. Do other divisions pay for their trophies out of entry fees or are they covered as event overhead ?

The ultimate catch 22 comes into play anytime you reduce entry fees.

A) Reduce entry fees for *any* given division and a few people that typically finish near the bottom are really happy and excited about about the reduction.

B) However, everyone that finishes 'in the prizes' then complains because the payout wasn't very good.

Funny you say that we should ask the women and I couldn't agree more. In fact, after a heated conversation at a 'mover and shaker' meeting someone finally said, "the 20 or so men in this room have been discussing how to get more women involved for the past 45 minutes and apparently what we have been doing in the past isn't working so let's get some female input." I couldn't agree more. We are always soliciting more female feedback but rarely do we get it besides one or two voices.

Of course Val, Des, Burl, and Lesli are going to love getting paid very well whenever there is added cash. I love Steve and Lesli but can you honestly tell me that Lesli should have gotten paid on this particular weekend just because she finished the tournament? You pay out all 6 of the Advanced Women, all 5 of the advanced masters, and all 5 of the advanced grandmasters and everyone would be happy right? Especially if you finished near the bottom in those divisions. Heck, I wish our entry fees only made up 1/4 of the purses at events and we were able to pay all participants but that's not the reality right now.

I am all about giving extra money to pro women purses in moderation. I'm simply stating that having the event double or triple their purse still doesn't bring more women into our sport. It might please a few that are playing but I think we need to focus on a solution that brings more out the course and more participation into the actual tournament scene. Again, I'm just using the women as an example. The same can be said about trying to get more Senior Grandmasters, Intermediate Women, or Juniors on the scene.

Also - Sarah DeMar is trying to find out 'what women want' in another thread that she started. I have read it through and her answer seems to focus on 'supplementing entry fees' which is reads to me like re-wording the phrase 'added cash' for women's divisions. There have been some GREAT discussions on that thread and I will continue to read it because it's already given me good insight.




THROWING money at these women has not increased attendance in the past 10 years so I don't think that's the answer anymore.



Maybe reduced entry fees and paying out deeper, including 100% at some tournaments, has been one of the few incentives that have actually kept women's attendance steady the past 10 years!

Additionally, whenever I see threads like this about women in disc golf, attendance, incentives, etc. I always think to myself, why don't TDs and organizers in our sport ASK women what they want instead of trying to decide for them? Why not ask the four smiling women at the tournament how they felt about it?

[I always think to myself, why don't TDs and organizers in our sport ASK women what they want instead of trying to decide for them?



A couple of scenarios I've been involved with...

1. At our NT in Raleigh (which is not just a supertour) we had all open on course A and women / masters / others on course B on day 1. On day 2, they switched. These courses are 30 min. apart (note - thanks to a new interstate, they are only 20 away, but at the time, it was 30). We tried to "think for ourselves" about what the women wanted and we pretty much thought they would want to do the awards with the open players, so we had one awards ceremony back at the other courses. The women raised cain about having to drive back 30 min. to the other course. They let us know that they did not like this.

The next year we did the same with the two courses split. B/c of what the woman told us the year before, we held seperate award ceremonies and each courses. The SAME women then raised cain about not being with the open players in the awards.

Sounds like that no matter what, we are in the wrong when it comes to minority divisions.

2. Our local courses has 2 sets of teeing areas on 8 holes. Of the 8 holes from the long tees (which is pretty much what everyone plays in PDGA play, even intermediates now) has a 330 foot shot over a lake (however, plenty of lay up room), a 240 foot carry over OB to an island green area and 2 par 4's.

I ran a tournament at this courses and made it clear that everyone would play the longs.

A few weeks before the event, a guy emailed me saying his intermediate woman girlfriend wanted to play but had never played the longs. I had no women signed up so this is what I said to her..

"I'm glad you are playing in this event and I want you to have fun. You can play whatever tee you want on every hole, however, if you want your rounds to be rated, you will need to play the course that everyone is playing"

She wanted to establish a rating to measure herself over time (which I respect) and decided to play the longs.

Bringing more women into the sport doesn't mean bringing more women into the PDGA. In general, the women I know would play disc golf, but they don't care enough to compete.

Paying 50% of the field is bad enough. (I'm speaking about any division, mostly mine)

This is a tricky situation. While I agree that with the tons of added cash at Sugarbush (considering the attendance), the right choice might have been to supplement the women's division, but where last place got 1/2 her money back. We should not punish Pro Women when their division doesn't support enough players to make traveling to tournaments a worthwhile enterprise.

Imagine if all the players who were not 1000 rated balked at the Pro Open field simply because they had no chance of winning. Would a Pro field with 14 1000 rated players pay out 40%? 50%? And how much of the added cash would go into this field that basically had all of the top rated players in attendance in it? It's basically like that for the women, so I think we need to do SOMETHING to increase turnout in their division so it's not just the top 3 or 4 or 5 duking it out for the win or last cash or no cash.

Part of the problem might be, imagine if you will, it's a 4 person field, and 3 of the field are Des, Val and Carrie. That 4th player is probably (no offense meant here) a Red Shirt - a la Star Trek - you know, the guy who gets teleported down to the planet with Spock, Kirk, and Bones only to be zapped by the aliens, or just happy to be witnessing some great golf. Imagine you are in a field with Ken, Dave, and Rico. That's it. They are going to be battling it out amongst themselves, and you probably won't be a blip on their radar. Some golfers would relish getting last place against those guys, for others, it would be upsetting.

That's the plight of the Local Pro Women when a National Tour comes to town. At least, it seems that way to me.

I could care less about the money. I am in it for the win, not 2nd or 3rd let alone last. Pay the top 3...they deserve it. If you play like crap you don't get paid..simple as that.

I can agree with paying out all women, to me what looks unfair is that the 1 master women got paid $42 compared to the over $2000 for the 4 open women. I wonder how this woman felt recieving only $42 when the other 4 open got over $2000. SHe should have played open and would have won more for finishing last. Does not look fair to me.

Sounds like that no matter what, we are in the wrong ....



You're not married, are ya? :D

Life might be easier if you focus on your situation as opposed to getting riled up about how another division was treated. The TD made a decision that he felt would help encourage participation in the women's division in the future. I give him credit for trying, and encourage any players in the other divisions that have a problem with it to buy a skirt and join in if they see fit.

I don't think there are any solutions to the "women's problem." I think the low numbers of women playing disc golf are related to the low numbers of women playing competitive, recreational sports generally. Competitive recreational sports are a guy thing.

I think we should let individual TDs experiment with their own fruitless solutions until they all come to the same conclusion as Terry. If Terry's unstated argument is that there is no point in bending over backward for 2% to 5% of our tournament field, I pretty much agree with him. But if some other TD wants to throw money at the women, it's his money. Jon and I throw some money at women's disc golf because our wives and daughters are women who play disc golf. Each TD has to figure out what works for him.

This was unstated for a reason. It's NOT that I can't see 'bending over backward' to help get more women to events ... I'm just pointing out that padding their purses (nice pun) doesn't appear to be the solution that brings more of them to tournaments.

I've TRIED to start women on the course so that half way through they are near a bathroom, I've TRIED to have women only CTPs, I've TRIED to offer pricing which is low compared to other divisions, I've invested thousands of dollars into women's clothing so they can get a women's cut polo, sweatshirt, or pants when they do well. I even started a women's only e-mail distribution list so they can communicate with one another to see who will or won't be at upcoming events. I want more women in the sport just like the next guy but throwing money at them doesn't appear to be a solution that works.

Ter

If Terry's unstated argument is that there is no point in bending over backward for 2% to 5% of our tournament field, I pretty much agree with him.

I think the reason Terry is like someone said, women aren't as competitive as men.

Kirk Yoo has always joked that the best way to get more women to come to tournaments is ban them from playing in tournaments :D

MTL you could not be more wrong. Being a woman..we are just as competitive if not more than men. Well at least here in Texas we are. Like I said, I could care less about money or plastic. I PLAY TO WIN!

I think the reason Terry is like someone said, women aren't as competitive as men.



Open mouth, insert foot... :D

haha well, I was speaking in general in regards to sports...

Are there any other sports besides DG? I was unaware?

Kirk Yoo has always joked that the best way to get more women to come to tournaments is ban them from playing in tournaments.

MTL you could not be more wrong. Being a woman..we are just as competitive if not more than men.



Or perhaps claiming they aren't as competitive...

You should have seen my first grade girls soccer team take on the boys team from their school in a scrimmage last night. Who says they aren't competitive? They've been trash talking all week. That said, most women I know that get out to disc golf are not out there for the competition. Not that they don't relish beating others, that's not their focus.

I think the reason Terry is like someone said, women aren't as competitive as men.



Open mouth, insert foot... :D




haha well, I was speaking in general in regards to sports...



Similar to shampoo, repeat if necessary... :D

That's my focus


What?...I'm just sayin

Haleigh (Krazyputts) is the most competative person I have ever met when it comes to tournamet play.

thats awesome haleigh!!

we need more women like you!

MTL come to Texas..there are at least 5 girls that I play with in all the tournaments here, and we are soooo competitive. It's hardcore.

Haleigh (Krazyputts) is the most competative person I have ever met when it comes to tournamet play.


Thanks hun..you are very sweet. lol

That women are not as competitive as men is pretty much a sociological fact. The subset of women who play competitive sports may be more competitive than men. I don't know. Certainly the women who play disc golf and also play message board are just as competitive men! :D

That women are not as competitive as men is pretty much a sociological fact.



That is all I was saying.....

Haleigh,

I think it is great that the women down there are very competitive.

As a over 30 male who took up the game a year ago, I would love to see more girls/women playing the sport. However, I do see some of the obstacles looking back on why I was hesitant to take it up.

1. Lack of Knowledge
I did not understand the sport or even how to get started. I had a general understanding of how to play the sport, but did not think that it would be at all fun. In addition, I had no idea how to get involved with the sport (supplies, courses, etc.).
2. Reputation
I grew up in the city up here and most of the people I observed discing were the stoners from school. I had (and have) nothing against folks who partake in their own environment, I just chose to stay away from their environment.

In addition to this, the one thing to remember is that for many women in the Midwest (I cannot speak for other areas of the country), they grew up in an environment that did not foster competition. Not saying that does not and cannot be developed in adulthood, but from my observances, the competitive drive is less than in men. Do women want to win? Absolutely. Do more men have a competitive drive than women? In my opinion and observations, this is the case. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but that is a reasoning as to why that perception exists.

I hope I am not ruffling anyone's feathers here. I would love to see female competitors in divisions(including junior girls divisions) to be increased enough that the men have to fight for places in tournaments.

Thank you,

Steve

That women are not as competitive as men is pretty much a sociological fact.



That is all I was saying.....



You're not married, are you _MTL_? :D

my decision would most likely have been different had the added cash not been so significant. Lesli got $150 as the last of the 4 women - Des , Val, and Burl being the other 3 FPO women.

Had i followed PDGA payout guidelines Des would have gotten $1562, Val $938, and Burl and lesli $0. in my opinion that was not a good payout so when i was calculating the payouts halfway thru the event (while there was a 3-way tie for the lead) i knew i had to alter it. i don't believe that at the start of the event Des or Val or Burl would have been thrilled if i said i was only paying 2 of them.

my impression from speaking with some of these women in the past is that they believe it is a good idea to pay deeper, even if it means it reduces their high-finish payout to some degree.

paying the 4th finisher (which turns out was lesli) $150 took approx $50 each away from Burl, Val, and Des. it's not my place to say this is fair or unfair. that's up to others to decide. the overwhelming majority of the added cash brought to the party was brought by me so i sort of felt like i had more of an opportunity to alter the payouts to fit what i believed the women would have desired than i might otherwise have done if it was someone else's $$$.

dan doyle

nope!

I'm only 24....much too young for that nonsense :D

Ever heard..."Everything's BIGGER in Texas" Well it is true.
Just because some girls don't show competitive drive, does not mean that they are not competitive. The main reason is that it is not feminine to be competitive.

I could care less if 100% of the division is paid only if it's the entry fee that was paid in. I have no idea why such hard to find sponsorship and added cash is being dumped into FPO &amp; MPM.


An FPO can go out every week against the same 5 to 10 players and win as much as top 5 to 10 in the MPO in most cases.

It would be nice to see the best disc golfers in the world staying on the road and playing big events. An MPO player placing in the 8th to 10th spot at A &amp; NT's can't even cover his expenses yet money is dumped into protected divisions. I want to see the nations best disc golfers playing. Yet we continue to waste money in the meantime on a division that hasn't grown.

Is it possible that women are different than men?
Is it possible that men are different than women? (I just wanted to be fair in my wording)

Can we, as a society, live with that concept? Or are we going to get caught up in the thinking that everyone is equal or in other words the same and when we're not we feel something is wrong and we need to fix it?

If, in general, most women are not as competitive as most men is that the worst thing in the world or can we accept it and nurture it in the girls/women that are competitive?

What if the tables were turned and we were talking about some activity that a greater percentage of women enjoy than men. Should more men be recruited until equal numbers of men like the activity as well? Would that activity be looked at as flawed until the same number of men enjoy it as women? Or could we just accept the difference for what it is?

I am married with 2 young daughters so I'm learning about the differences between the genders. I see the differences between the genders and accept it as a heathy difference. My girls are competitive in some things. As for my wife I can't think of a single thing she competes in.

With much love to Miss Haleigh and the rest of her cohorts (one of them is my wife), I think MTL has a point. Competition in sports is a very macho, very male thing in most respects. This doesn't mean that women can't be or aren't competitive. This certainly doesn't mean that there aren't lots of very competitive women playing DG today. Haleigh is a good example. In fact (stepping aside to give her some props), the event she competed in this past weekend was her best finish to date. She stomped the 5-woman Advanced field and would have finished an easy second in MA3. I believe she would have cashed in MA2, but I'm not certain. She and the rest of the ladies played competitively and played well. That said, Haleigh and the rest of the girls that she plays with regularly are the exception to the rule.

Generally speaking ("generally" is a key word here), women are more interested in the social aspects of sports. Men are generally more interested in the competition. My wife is a very competitive woman, but her feeling about a tournament is much more affected by the group she plays with and the rest of the tournament atmosphere than it is by where she placed.

I think that paying 100% of a women's amateur field can do a lot to encourage repeat participation in that event or series. I also think that players packs can accomplish the same thing in a different manner. I don't think there's any real reason to pay 100% of a pro field... why not just lower the entry fees and make it less expensive to play?

Anyway, it's not fair to say that no women are competitive. It is fair to say that as a general rule, women are looking for something else as a primary motivator. I think it will take some time to figure out what works best to attract the most female players.

I think what would attract more chicks would be clothes, shoes, and purses..lol :D

note to self: investigate tournament-stamped purses

:D

Or spa days, manicures, gift certificates to restaurants...OH YEAH..that's motivation for me!! Plus I really don't like tournament stamped discs, so I give them to Giles or whoever wants them.

Hey BBD are you playing the mini tonight in Mckinney?

planning on it. Might even leave early from work and actually warm up this week. BTW, you gave me a really good idea for tournament prizes for women... Not to derail the conversation, but I think it would be a really good idea to get more feedback like this from female DGers. Next year, I will be putting on an event somewhere here in DFW that will try very hard to cater to the ladies in the area. More info when I have it, but we need to talk.

We will talk tonight.

What about securing specific sponsors geared towards women for the added cash. Like a Lady Footlocker, or remale clothing line, Michalob Ultra (LPGA Sponsor) or the like.

Pink discs, chics LOVE the pink discs! :D

The underlying problem is just a lack of women playing disc golf, period. It really won't matter what you pay out until there is a significant increase in the number of women just plain playing.

Thank you Dan for "sharing the love" when you can. If I had a good chunk of added cash, I would have paid all 4 of them, too. It's WAY different paying 100% of a 4 person field than paying 100% of a 25 person division.

I remember the first Bud Light Women's Disc Golf Championships in Waterloo, IA a lifetime ago. They paid all pro women that day, too. If I recall, there were 8 of them, including Elaine King, Becky Powell, and Andy Lehman. I got to hang in the hotel hot tub with them. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Or spa days, manicures, gift certificates to restaurants...OH YEAH..that's motivation for me!! Plus I really don't like tournament stamped discs, so I give them to Giles or whoever wants them.



At the 2007 Sun Valley Open we secured two sponsors that provided hand crafted custom jewelry for all the woman in attendance. Plus those same sponsors donated an additional 3 pieces for the Am Womans Payouts and Tee-Sign sponsorship. This of course didn't add any cash to the Pro Womans division. But it was something special that was done for them.

With creative sponsorship, it is possible to attract a lot of businesses to the sport and individual tournaments in general.

I will add Pink Discs to the list for next year as well!

Richard

I think all of you have great points made on both sides of the spectrum. Now let me throw a different scenario that is playing out here in Az. A pdga c tier tourney next month in Phx. All amature divisions paying the same price ($30) Advanced, intermediate, adv. master, rec includig womens am divisions. All competeing for ONE tournament stamped disc with the words "Champion"., per division. Everyone who signs up in these divisions will be given a players package consisting of a tournament stamped disc a mini (not tourney stamped) and a coupon for $10 from the tournament directors store (he sells disc gear) There reasoning is that everyone will get paid out and only the winner wins. Any thoughts on this???? My thought is I feel sorry for the guy who takes second in each of these divisions.

The market will decide if that approach is supported by the players. Maybe the store should advertise they are holding a tournament and you get free entry into it simply by making a minimum of $30 purchase at the store. Then, just have the one prize disc for all of the players who enter each division and not have to deal with entry fees? Seems like it would end up the same way.

I think all of you have great points made on both sides of the spectrum. Now let me throw a different scenario that is playing out here in Az. A pdga c tier tourney next month in Phx. All amature divisions paying the same price ($30) Advanced, intermediate, adv. master, rec includig womens am divisions. All competeing for ONE tournament stamped disc with the words "Champion"., per division. Everyone who signs up in these divisions will be given a players package consisting of a tournament stamped disc a mini (not tourney stamped) and a coupon for $10 from the tournament directors store (he sells disc gear) There reasoning is that everyone will get paid out and only the winner wins. Any thoughts on this???? My thought is I feel sorry for the guy who takes second in each of these divisions.

All I know is, this is exactly why I had to resign from the board. Under Arizona law everyone who profits from this format, the PDGA included, is guilty of a felony.

Sweep, sweep. Sweep, sweep. Nothing to see here. Move along now.

Meanwhile, the TD is making about $15 per player. Nice am-scam event there. What pro tournament is this a fund raiser for?

2nd place will try harder to be 1st next time

Why is this illegal? I can't even think why this would be illegal. If some promotion company wants to create a 10K run and gives you an entry pack and pockets the rest, is that illegal also?

btw, why is it an am-scam? It is little different from what we have now. I've played many tourneys where the markup went to the TD. Some might view it as a win-win: the TD gets paid for their work and the ams get a well-run event to participate in. Much like a 10K run.

It has been a long time since I looked at Arizona law. But on second thought, since there is no payout, this is probably legal in Arizona. Traditional tournaments are illegal in Arizona because Arizona has chosen to make it illegal to run entry fee and payout games where the operator makes a profit. Without a payout, this event is probably Arizona legal.

Read this really fast in a monotone: I'm not an Arizona lawyer and I'm not purporting to offer legal advice to Arizona TDs. Don't get your legal advice from some random dude on the internet. If you want a legal opinion why traditional PDGA tournaments are illegal in Arizona, you should talk to an Arizona lawyer and pay him a pile of money.

I convinced my wife to start playing DG with me when I go out for practice rounds. She enjoys being outside in nature and spending time with me. That is the only reason she plays.

I have tried to convince her to play in a tournament. I think she would actually be competitive against other women, but she has no desire. I play DG tournaments to compete against people outside my city - but the competition aspect means nothing to her. Whether she shoots a +12 or a +25, she really doesn't care.

I look at the adult softball leagues around my (small) city. There are men's leagues and co-ed leagues. I don't know of any female only leagues. This isn't because the men outnumber the women.

This can be seen in almost every other sport that a sizable number of adults participate in: bowling, golf, disc golf, running, softball, tennis, etc.

The best disc golf can do is to make the tournaments available to women, and encourage them to participate.