First off I would like to say thank you for this forum. I have been playing for about 6 months now and i have started jump putting. My question is someone pointed out that I leave both feet when i jump and thats it looks like the disc leaves my hand after both my feet are of the ground. now i have read the rule book but i have also watched in slo-mo climos jump putt and he leaves the ground before he releases the disc so i am a little confused. Is there any specific rule about jump putts or is it just over looked in tournys? Sorry about the long post but i have looked through the forums and used the search and i didn't find anything. thanks again for the forums and i look forward to your replys.

Jump putting is a tough judgement call. If you can get multiple players on your card to agree with you that someone did it illegally, then you can stroke a person for it, but it is often a tough call.

I will be honest though: if it takes slow motion video replay to catch a person releasing after they've left the ground, odds are they will not be caught. If you were obvious enough to be caught doing it, you need to work on it.

Technically, you can not leave the ground before you release, but it is a difficult call.

First off I would like to say thank you for this forum. I have been playing for about 6 months now and i have started jump putting. My question is someone pointed out that I leave both feet when i jump and thats it looks like the disc leaves my hand after both my feet are of the ground. now i have read the rule book but i have also watched in slo-mo climos jump putt and he leaves the ground before he releases the disc so i am a little confused. Is there any specific rule about jump putts or is it just over looked in tournys? Sorry about the long post but i have looked through the forums and used the search and i didn't find anything. thanks again for the forums and i look forward to your replys.



I actually had an incident in a tourney I played this last weekend where because of my jump putting style another competitor accused me of cheating by illegally jump putting. Here is the rule as I understand it.

You must have one foot on the ground directly behind your mini within the normal guidelines.

You can lean forward and jump towards the basket with your follow though if you are outside of 10 meters.

The disc must leave your hand before your foot leaves the ground.

The way I do it is I lean my entire body forward just as though I am running at the basket, then a split second before my 1st foot behind my mark leaves the ground but while my 2nd foot and my entire body for that matter extends well out out in front of me (think of someone running and look at their back foot) I release the put. It looks very odd but the results are tremendous. It is alway dead on and the only thing I have to worry about is height.

First the person in the tourney said you can't extend your body out past your marker which isn't true, everyone who putts extends almost their entire body past the marker, just not their feet. Once confronted with this fact he tried saying I was leaving the ground with my back foot before releasing the putt. All this after already having played the first round and half of the last round with this person. And we where on the leader card and I was leading. This resulted in an arguement and confrontation on the course.

First off I would like to say thank you for this forum. I have been playing for about 6 months now and i have started jump putting. My question is someone pointed out that I leave both feet when i jump and thats it looks like the disc leaves my hand after both my feet are of the ground. now i have read the rule book but i have also watched in slo-mo climos jump putt and he leaves the ground before he releases the disc so i am a little confused. Is there any specific rule about jump putts or is it just over looked in tournys? Sorry about the long post but i have looked through the forums and used the search and i didn't find anything. thanks again for the forums and i look forward to your replys.



I actually had an incident in a tourney I played this last weekend where because of my jump putting style another competitor accused me of cheating by illegally jump putting. Here is the rule as I understand it.

You must have one foot on the ground directly behind your mini within the normal guidelines.

You can lean forward and jump towards the basket with your follow though if you are outside of 10 meters.

The disc must leave your hand before your foot leaves the ground.

The way I do it is I lean my entire body forward just as though I am running at the basket, then a split second before my 1st foot behind my mark leaves the ground but while my 2nd foot and my entire body for that matter extends well out out in front of me (think of someone running and look at their back foot) I release the put. It looks very odd but the results are tremendous. It is alway dead on and the only thing I have to worry about is height.

First the person in the tourney said you can't extend your body out past your marker which isn't true, everyone who putts extends almost their entire body past the marker, just not their feet. Once confronted with this fact he tried saying I was leaving the ground with my back foot before releasing the putt. All this after already having played the first round and half of the last round with this person. And we where on the leader card and I was leading. This resulted in an arguement and confrontation on the course.



You were called and seconded in the second round. I know both guys that made the call and one is good friend he also jump putts (legally). As they describe your "putting style" you leave the ground before you let go. Maybe you need to work on your timing.

You were called and seconded in the second round. I know both guys that made the call and one is good friend he also jump putts (legally). As they describe your "putting style" you leave the ground before you let go. Maybe you need to work on your timing.



Actually I have video of my putts and it is legal. I do not release the putt before leaving the ground. It was never seconded. The 2nd guy said, "ya I don't know if that is legal, it looks wierd." He stated intially that you can't have your body extended over the mark which is false, not that I left the ground before releasing the putt. It wasn't unitl 10 minutes later on another fairway that he changed his stance to say I was leaving the ground before releasing. In addition there where 2 other people on the card that stated the putt looked OK to them. In addition there was another individual who approached me after the round on a different card who witnessed the who thing who also stated the putt was legal. So just to clear the air on that issue, the putt was legal, the timing is fine. The call wasn't seconded because I was never stroked for it.

This wasn't an attack on the person who made the call. I played 2 rounds will the person in that tourney and he is a fine person. I've played with him in the past. Just saying that you can't play 29 holes with someone putting the same way the whole round and then wait until there are a few holes left and tourney is in the balance to question the putting style. Call it the first 10 times I jump putted that way. Again I have no qualms with the person who made the call, they where just wrong in the call and wrong in how they handled it.

How should the following be handled ...
A card consists of 5 people, Persons A-E. Person A jump putts, Personx B and C think the putt is illegal and call it within the required time. Person D and E think it is legal.

How should the following be handled ...
A card consists of 5 people, Persons A-E. Person A jump putts, Personx B and C think the putt is illegal and call it within the required time. Person D and E think it is legal.



If called and seconded it doesn't matter what D and E think.

How should the following be handled ...
A card consists of 5 people, Persons A-E. Person A jump putts, Personx B and C think the putt is illegal and call it within the required time. Person D and E think it is legal.



If called and seconded it doesn't matter what D and E think.


That is rather odd. So B and C are in cohoots and can call a fould on every person on every throw regardless of what the rest of the group thinks. That doesn't seem fair.

I hate jump putting in general because about 50% of the time it is illegal, Even if you watch the pro's a lot of it is timed off. It's just way to hard to catch it and get a second if it isn't slow motioned and watched several times.

Also, don't have confrontations on the course, if there is an issue where you would have one, send for the TD right away.

How should the following be handled ...
A card consists of 5 people, Persons A-E. Person A jump putts, Personx B and C think the putt is illegal and call it within the required time. Person D and E think it is legal.



If called and seconded it doesn't matter what D and E think.


That is rather odd. So B and C are in cohoots and can call a fould on every person on every throw regardless of what the rest of the group thinks. That doesn't seem fair.



If collussion is suspected you absolutely need to get the TD involved.

How should the following be handled ...
A card consists of 5 people, Persons A-E. Person A jump putts, Personx B and C think the putt is illegal and call it within the required time. Person D and E think it is legal.



If called and seconded it doesn't matter what D and E think.


That is rather odd. So B and C are in cohoots and can call a fould on every person on every throw regardless of what the rest of the group thinks. That doesn't seem fair.



If collussion is suspected you absolutely need to get the TD involved.



Just to be sure noone misinterprets this ... there was no collusion at the event I was speaking of ... jsut didn't know what the rule is on that one.

What if the disc is release at the same time as the foot leaves the ground?

krazyeye how can you call him out you wernt even there and have you even seen him putt. i have watched a bunch of videos on jump putting and it almost impossible to tell if the foot leaves the ground.

jerry i have a friend that jump putts the same way you explained. it is weird but legal. jump putts are never going to be black and white unless the pdga introduces slo-mo replay not much can be said.

krazyeye how can you call him out you wernt even there and have you even seen him putt. i have watched a bunch of videos on jump putting and it almost impossible to tell if the foot leaves the ground.

jerry i have a friend that jump putts the same way you explained. it is weird but legal. jump putts are never going to be black and white unless the pdga introduces slo-mo replay not much can be said.



1. I did not call him out we are discussing.
2. I was there.
3. I have seen him putt I was on the card behind him in doubles on Friday he gets it about 75% just like most people I have seen jump putt.
4. I agree that Jump putts are legal when done correctly.
5. Still if two people call a stance violation as in the five person hypothetical card Scott discribed you are SOL.

I hate jump putting in general because about 50% of the time it is illegal,



That is an incorrect statement, usually made by those who do not jump putt. There is another thread where it is discussed that leaving the ground before releasing leads to a very inaccurate putt, try it. A player that is GOOD at jump putting isn't going to putt illegally...

This isn't the first tourney where its been brought up (but it was ruled legal before). As such I've just started working on my standing puts up to like 60 feet. Suprisingly in just a few days of practicing I've improved.

I wonder if jumping actually hurts your accuracy. Kind of like a hitter in baseball. Ever notice how quite a good hitter like Pujols is. He thinks that movement hurts your swing because it hurts your muscle memory. I wonder if the same is true in disc golf. If the actions assosiated with jumping actually distracts you from making a putt on a good line.

Also CrazyEye ... worry we took so long in doubles. It was the other guys who took so long ... I swear

I know who was slowing down the card. We could get all four drives off before that one person drove. It was so painful to watch. I could not have been in your shoes. I would have lost my mind.

sorry krazyeye i miss understood.

I wonder if jumping actually hurts your accuracy.



You can make the argument both ways depending on how you look at it...

Position A) Jumping hinders accuracy from 35ft+
Supporting argument A) Jumping introduces another variable into the putitng equation. If I eliminate the variable of leg thrust, then I can focus on only varying my arm strength and will be more accurate.

Position B) Jumping improves accuracy from 35ft+
Supporting argument B) The more arm strength I put into putting, the less accurate I am. Using additional strength from my legs, I can putt from further with less arm strength.

Personally, I am a believer in position B. I am less accurate the harder I throw the putt. Jump putting allows me to make 40fters with the same arm strength as 20fts, and my percentages jumping the 40fters are almost as good as my percentages for the non-jumping 20fters. It is just those **** standstill 32fters I need to master!!!

I know who was slowing down the card. We could get all four drives off before that one person drove. It was so painful to watch. I could not have been in your shoes. I would have lost my mind.



Did you see our doubles score? They indicated the sturggles we had. Of those tow we where playing with where making unbelievable putts. Must have hit 5 from outside of 60 feet. Meanwhile we could cash in on the 25 footers.

I hate jump putting in general because about 50% of the time it is illegal,



That is an incorrect statement, usually made by those who do not jump putt. There is another thread where it is discussed that leaving the ground before releasing leads to a very inaccurate putt, try it. A player that is GOOD at jump putting isn't going to putt illegally...

That's what jump putters always say. My brother Jon got some good footage of illegal jump putts at the last tournament he was at.

There is no reason why having your feet off the ground is going to make your shot less accurate. What makes the shot accurate is the bodily momentum towards the basket being transfered to the disc.

I know who was slowing down the card. We could get all four drives off before that one person drove. It was so painful to watch. I could not have been in your shoes. I would have lost my mind.



Did you see our doubles score? They indicated the sturggles we had. Of those tow we where playing with where making unbelievable putts. Must have hit 5 from outside of 60 feet. Meanwhile we could cash in on the 25 footers.



They had 11 birdies and tied my team (-5). We had seven birdies. We only took fours on the two longest holes. My partner and I did not put well.

for me its not about accuracy really, it becomes difficult to loft putt from 40 out for me. from there i use a jump putt, better to have a run at it than none at all. also i think the jump putt while the foot is down rule is more important for rule benders. being 1 inch off the ground isnt that big a deal, but some people could run and jump from 35 and get to 10 ft out before letting go if the grounded foot rule wasnt in place. like a long jump with a 10 footer at the end. making that illegal is more in the spirit of the game, i think.

there's something to be said for drawing the line at "foot on the ground" though. True, the players you described aren't the problem, but then again neither are those drivers whose two-year old car's state inspection just ran out. They still get a ticket, though... We have to define rules and stick to them. This is just one of the hardest rules to call.

My personal feeling is that jump putting shouldn't be allowed at all until I figure out how to make it work for me :D

Another question. Is the rule that you have to be in contact with the ground behind your mark, or just behind it? If it is just behind it then a jump putter could feasible just jump putt from a few inches behind the mark to be saef while still being within the standard mark area.

You must have a part of you body in contact with the playing surface within 11 cm of your lie, and that is straight back from the center.

Gotcha.

I'm sure you meant 30 cm, correct?

I'm sure you meant 30 cm, correct?



I thought it was 300mm

12 inches.

I'm sure you meant 30 cm, correct?

Yes, yes sorry I have no clue where I pulled 11 from.

I hate jump putting in general because about 50% of the time it is illegal,



That is an incorrect statement, usually made by those who do not jump putt. There is another thread where it is discussed that leaving the ground before releasing leads to a very inaccurate putt, try it. A player that is GOOD at jump putting isn't going to putt illegally...

That's what jump putters always say. My brother Jon got some good footage of illegal jump putts at the last tournament he was at.

There is no reason why having your feet off the ground is going to make your shot less accurate. What makes the shot accurate is the bodily momentum towards the basket being transfered to the disc.


If being off the ground makes shots less accurate, I have increased respect for the NBAers who make jump shots so well.

I was refering to throwing discs, not shooting hoops. But since you brought it up...

Most NBA players are better at set shots (no jump) than jump shots anyway. They only shoot jump shots to not get stuffed! They don't jump on freethrows do they???

My brother Jon got some good footage of illegal jump putts at the last tournament he was at.





Hey Bruce -

Sounds like the makings of something useful. Maybe Jon is up for a video story exploring the issue of jump putting. If he's got the video but doesn't want to work anything up, I'd be happy to see what I can do.

I'm leaning towards a series on "rules," particularly those that might benefit from video. Taking a lie in a bush, foot faults in general, etc. Anyhow, the mention of Jon's footage sounds like a nice start. Last couple times I contacted him (re Wom Nats), never heard back. Maybe you've got a better in.

Joe

why not just change the rules to say that "the last point of contact must be behind the lie". if someone wants to jump, let them. its better than not even being able to make a call.

I would agree as long as it's outside 10m (no leaping slam dunks near the basket) and the throw is released before player lands back on the ground.

Or go the other way and always have a demonstration of balance at all distances other than the tee. Then you get rid of most questionable fairway runups as well.

i dont care if someone wants to do a leaping slam dunk, but i'd eagerly compromise and leave the 10m exclusion intact if it meant we could do away with the discussion outside of 10m.

plus, it might make or some more highly creative - and viewable - shots

why not just change the rules to say that "the last point of contact must be behind the lie". if someone wants to jump, let them. its better than not even being able to make a call.



Can we members vote on a rule change like this?

No member vote. The Board initiates a request to the Rules Committee to prepare for the next rules update more than a year ahead of time. During that preparation period, players may suggest rules issues that should be looked at and the RC has their own list of items to be addressed in the next update. The RC sends the preliminary draft of changes to the Board for review and approval or rejection for further work or clarification. This cycle might repeat a few times before the final version is approved for printing.

How do we prompt the board to initiate the request?

Contact the person three posts up...

why not just change the rules to say that "the last point of contact must be behind the lie". if someone wants to jump, let them. its better than not even being able to make a call.



If the rule is (I'm assuming your intent) that the last supporting point before leaving the ground has to be within the current stance rules (within 30 cm on the line of play), wouldn't this also allow for a person to jump 'out' to get around an object or out of a treeline? Would it also be hard to tell whether the 'behind the lie' supporting foot actually left the ground after the 'leading foot' instead of before (which would be a foot fault) when someone attempted such a manuver?

The fun of changing the rules to address one situation is the affect they can have on others.

yes, it would allow such a move. thats, imo, one of the benefits of the change.

and yes, it might be hard to make the call you describe, but not any harder than what we look for now.

This will be a regression, imo. Though it doesn't seem to be much of an issue to me, either the existence of jump putts or whether each individual one is legal, I don't want to see people jumping around trees to throw shots. It's just as hard to call....people will start doing jump stops and everyone will wonder if the foot behind the mini left first or the other one two feet away.

And I also don't buy into the argument that watching someone do a sideways leaping throw is aesthetically pleasing or exiting.

And then we can argue whether the player released the disc before his foot touched the ground on landing---probably as difficult as deciding whether he released before jumping, as we do now.

being able to putt while in the air will leave some people with 5 or 10 footers from 35 ft out. A professional long jumper would even be able to dunk it. talk about the image of disc golf, we dont need people taking 20 foot leaps past their lies on jump putts and putting while still in the air from 10 feet.

I think the point is that adding more athleticism into the sport via more spectacular attempts in the 35-70 range of the green would go a long way visually to separate us as truly a sport in the league of and potentially more active than ball golf.

We'd have to add more athletes to add more athleticism...

Disc Golf = Where Ultimate players go to die.

There is a fine line between athleticism and gimmickry. If we need to add athleticism, throw in a steeplechase or race each other to see who completes the hole first.

I think a basic tenant of golf is �play it where it lies�. Not �play it from how far you can propel yourself from where it lies�. IMO, change the basic premise and it�s no longer disc golf.

Another offshoot of a poor self image. There is nothing at all lacking in the dificulty of our sport. In fact, more people could probably leap 20 feet towards the basket and slam it in than can throw a controlled 450 foot shot down a tight fairway. The reasons we are not taken as seriously as we could be have nothing to do with the rules or difficulty of the game.

This proposal is no different than players who coming striding from 15 feet before even reaching the tee pad to drive in terms of looking too athletic. Interesting how Tiger's training regimen has infected the whole tour such that most players now are working out besides just practicing shots. Those who play courses with legit pars over 60 in disc golf definitely need to be in better shape than players 15 years ago on courses we now consider pitch-n-putts.

No real comparison because on the tee, the 'lie' is anywhere the player wants to establish it within a given area in both ball golf and disc golf. The only difference between the two is we allow a run-up (actually, more accurately benefit from a run-up as a golfer could 'Happy Gilmore' it), both off the tee and on subsequent shots over 10 meters.

As for athleticism, Tiger's training regimen helps him perform better than others in relation to how the game is played. No different than a disc golf pro's regimen. But no one is suggesting that the rules need to be changed to better showcase the running or jumping ability of Tiger Woods.

I say that if we allow for the jumping slam dunk putt, the other players on the card are allowed to play defense! :)

I think we're not talking about the slam dunk putt but the leap from outside 10m being allowed.

We've already discussed the possibility of playing defense in doubles. But rather than waving arms, a designated player on the other team would have to deflect the flying disc from the other team by stiking it with their own throw flying thru the air. Kind of like the Reagan Star Wars system where an enemy missile would be intercepted in the air by another missile moving as fast.

Better wear helmets and pads as someone's going to catch one in the chops.

Like like the idea of battle golf better from the tiger woods video game... You play match play and if you win the hole you get to take a disc of your choice out of the players line-up. Evil....

yeah, inside 10m stays as is. btw, at msdgc i asked a few Real Pros about this one. the biggest concern was with the advantage a taller player would get on putts inside 10m (especially in a big headwind).

it was a good point about just changing the argument from the timing of the leap to the landing. does ultimate deal with that issue somehow?

i agree with tk on the training regimen. however we're not suggesting a rule change for the purpose of showcasing athleticism. it was suggested as a possible side effect of changing the rule to "the last point of contact before the throw must be at the lie".

it was a good point about just changing the argument from the timing of the leap to the landing. does ultimate deal with that issue somehow?




Yup. Normally when the disc is in play, the player needs to establish a pivot point (can be any body part... butt cheek or knee, so throwing while sitting or kneeling is legal) If you move the pivot, you have traveled, play stops and you have to go back to where you were. If you completed a pass, you get the disc back, if you turned it over, it stays a turnover.

The exception is that you can catch and throw on the run as long as you 1. do not change direction or accelerate 2. release the disc before you make your third ground contact.

And yes this does cause arguments and complaints of bogus travel calls..

It the 3 contact rule also allows you to jump from inbounds, catch and throw before landing out of bounds like a basketball player saving an errant pass... this is referred to as "The Greatest" if completed.

The simple solution for the PDGA is make the circle bigger, say 30 meters.

Measuring a 30-meter circle might be problematic. 10 meters is bad enough.

My personal prefence is to keep the current stance rule, but do away with the falling putt - and therefore any reference to 10 meters. Same stance rule, everywhere. (Which, of course, doesn't further the original argument about which jump putts are legal, and which aren't, at all).