I know I'm going to have an upcoming problem with a TD at a future tournament so I want to know what I can do to make sure that I can play and not be witheld.

The local club and I have differences, and because of those differences I have been banned from the club. They won't let me play in weekly doubles format, and today we had an Ace Race and they wouldn't let me play in that. We have a sanctioned PDGA tournament coming up in about a month and it's very important that I play for the rating. But I know there's gonna be problems again. Is there anything I can do to prevent that, or who should I talk to. Any help I can get would be appreciated! Thanks!

I would guess if it is a sanctioned event and you can legally be on the property there is nothing that they can do to prevent you from playing. If the property is privately owned and the owner doesn't not allow you on the property you are S.O.L. If you are a felon and your legal status could prevent you from being allowed on the property you are S.O.L. (ie pedophile and school property).

so what the story, what did you do?

Months ago our club held a monthly mini. At the end of the tournament we have a box of used discs and I was seen throwing one of them. I threw it once, didn't like the way it felt and put it back in the box and left. Later on that day I guess that exact disc ended up missing. A week later 2 more brand new discs ended up missing from our club. So I was accused of doing it, since I was seen throwing the disc and I was near the TD's car when the other two ended up missing. So about a month after that, I found a locals disc. Didn't see his name on it since it had been missing for quite some time, so I wrote mine on it. Later that week I seen his name on it and gave it back to him. The TD assumed I had it all along and stated that if I wanted to continue playing in the club I was to reimburse what was taken and replace the disc I found of the locals with a new one. I was fit to be tied. I wasn't about to pay for something I didn't do. I replaced the "used" disc that I found and then was accused of having stolen that one TOO!!! No one seen me do anything, other than throw that one used disc and put it back. Now here I am months later and I was denied the ability to play in a tournament today. He said I couldn't pay until the discs I "took" were paid for. It's not so much the matter of the discs but that he's thrown my name around in the local area as a thief and liar. AND I won't put up with it no more.

Just a suggestion, but it may cost you some money. Go to the TD and staying calm the whole time, explain to him what happened. It may even be better just to write a letter. You can then get your whole story in without an ensuing argument. At the end of the letter tell him that you are more than willing to pay for a polygraph test to prove your innocence if that is acceptable to him.

I knew an individual that once did this and ended up having to pay for the test, but after passing it he could not easily be blaimed again.

As for the TD keeping you out of the event, if he feels threatened by you or concerned about loss, I am willing to bet the PDGA BOD would allow him to ban you.

I bet the TD's version of the events would read quite differently.

jerry, a lot might depend on whether this is a public or private course. in the absence of an indictment, restraining order or something of that sort, banning the player from a public course goes against our stated policy. i dont know the origins of the policy, but i can see how it could arise to prevent situations in which the TD bans a player in a *seemingly* arbitrary manner.

If it just the cost of 2 or 3 discs why not just pay the guy the money and never admit to doing anything. In the grand scheme of things is missing out on all the fun of tourneys and minis worth $30 - $45? Probably not.

As I stated before it's not about the money. My name has been beaten down now. I would rather not be a part of a club that is like that. You're right the TD's side of the story reads quite different. I've tried talking to him before. He just won't listen. There is nothing prior to this that would lead anyone to believe I would have done this. I've supported my local club for over a year now both financially and physically. He only wants $25 but I'm not gonna pay for it cause I didn't do it. It shouldn't hold me back from tournaments, and I'll never be viewed the same. I want an apology. Plain and clear and won't accept anything less!

As I stated before it's not about the money. My name has been beaten down now. I would rather not be a part of a club that is like that. You're right the TD's side of the story reads quite different. I've tried talking to him before. He just won't listen. There is nothing prior to this that would lead anyone to believe I would have done this. I've supported my local club for over a year now both financially and physically. He only wants $25 but I'm not gonna pay for it cause I didn't do it. It shouldn't hold me back from tournaments, and I'll never be viewed the same. I want an apology. Plain and clear and won't accept anything less!



If you just paid him the money and took the high road you'd come out as the better man.

Sounds like a tough spot you're in. I wonder if even after paying them what they want they will forget the incident and befriend you. You could always sue them, but then that would alienate them further.

If a TD accused me of theft without proof and was raking my name through the mud like this TD is apparently doing to George Anthony, not only would I contact the PDGA about it, I would file a lawsuit against the TD for slander. Don't pay these guys anything.

Why not donate $25 or $50 to the event. Say it is sponsorship for the event and to show the club you care. You take no responsibility for the theft, but the club sees you are willing to help out. Do what you can to make it a pleasent event.

Depending on how much animosity is there with the TD, I would either ask him directly (or ask a neutral third party to approach him and ask), "What would it take to resolve this conflict to your satisfaction and get you to lift this ban?"

Then think long and hard about whether the benefits of having the ban lifted outweigh the cost/effort/principle of doing what is requested or required.

You could always pursue becoming a TD yourself and running an alternate event or running for (or backing someone more sympathetic to you for) club office. That would depend on to what extent the TD is representing the will of the majority of the members.

Even if you could force the TD (or club) to let you play, that probably wouldn't be a successful resolution. There are all sorts of ways a TD or majority could make your life miserable during an event if he/they don't want you there.

I guess what I'm saying is the root conflict is the problem, not the ban. Getting the ban lifted (or temporarily suspended) probably won't help as much as you think.

If a TD accused me of theft without proof and was raking my name through the mud like this TD is apparently doing to George Anthony, not only would I contact the PDGA about it, I would file a lawsuit against the TD for slander. Don't pay these guys anything.



are you serious? :confused: obviously you have never filed a suit but FYI attorneys are expensive and unless you can prove without a reasonable doubt (not hearsay) then you dont have a case and you spent $150/hr for nothing.My only advice would be to try and talk it out with the TD,once he sees that you have posted this topic on the board I am sure that he will just let it go but I wouldnt pay him anything if I hadnt taken anything that only makes you look guilty.All else fails just start playing Florida events depending on what part of AL you are in.

Obviously, if money wasn't an option, then YES.

If one were to take a realistic view of one's reputation, one could sue for slander in small claims court...

Just an observation. :D

obviously you have never filed a suit but FYI attorneys are expensive and unless you can prove without a reasonable doubt (not hearsay) then you dont have a case and you spent $150/hr for nothing.



Actually in civil court you must proved beyond a preponderance of evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the burden of proof in civil course. Beyond a preponderance of evidence generally means it is most likely true (51% chance) of being true.

What about mediation? Sometimes a legal mediator can be pricey too but what about having a neutral club member officiate? Just my $.02.

Why not donate $25 or $50 to the event. Say it is sponsorship for the event and to show the club you care. You take no responsibility for the theft, but the club sees you are willing to help out. Do what you can to make it a pleasent event.



I like this suggestion. If money is not an issue for you, the $25 can be added cash for the players pot. You could accompany this with a letter explaining and denying to the club and the TD. Without getting into the local soap opera, aren't there club members who know you and who would say that you are not the type of guy to do what they have accused you of doing?

This does not look like fodder for litigation or even the People's Court. This screams out for reasonable heads to work it out.

Sounds like a hairy situation. I think it's wrong for the powers at be to ban you for something so questionable. If you were obviously guilty than you deserve to be banned until the discs are paid for. If the TD can't prove you did it he has no right to ban you. IMO.

The biggest thing that stands out to me is even if I did pay it, why would I want to be a part of a club who judges like this, and is as oppinionated as them. I've done nothing to their club, for the year I played with them week after week I never said anything or did anything that led them to believe I would do such. I just don't know. I've gotten clarification from the TD that I can not be banned from a sanctioned event and that was the whole reason I started this post was to get clarification on that. I'll leave it at that. Thanks for all your input!

You shouldnt have to pay them any amount of money, even to show good nature. It's just the principle of the matter. Dont be a part of the club, but play their tournaments to show you wont be bullied.

What's right and what's smart are often not the same thing, period!

Whether or not he took the discs is irrelevant in the context of the club and situation. If he wants to play he is going to have to pay, it is that simple. He can be mad about it, he can jump and shout, but in the end, unless he wants to start his own club and run his own events, he isn't going to play.

When I was 20, I would have argued and fought, injustice made me nuts. Now, at 47 I know that sometimes the best path is to compromise and then once in good graces fix the situation from the inside.

BTW - as a matter of course, I never move anyone else's disc used or otherwise unless I plan on paying for it right there. The situation where something goes missing is exactly the reason why. On the other hand, when something goes missing, unless I saw the person pocket the item I don't accuse. That was a hard lesson, one where I thought someone had taken something, commented, and got proven wrong. :o

The same goes for found discs, labeled or not. They go in my car until the next time I meet a local club officer or prominent TD. It doesn't matter that the owner may not get it back, the local club guys and TDs all donate to charity, in my opinion, the best home for a wayward disc.

Thunder Dome

Two enter One leaves

Ragedy Man if you succeed, your tournament embargo will be over.

Have we lost the love for the sport and thrown politics in? Whatever happened to the days of going out with the "boys" and just throwing a round. Hmmm....I've made new friends, started my own group and continue to have the same fun I did before. I still play the same courses and I'm not held back from tourneys other than local one's. No loss on my part. The only loss the club doesn't get my support anymore. Man I was buying discs from week after week. Played in all their tournaments just to show my support. Came every week for doubles. I'm in it for the love of the game and to see it grow. I suppose it doesn't matter where that is done at.

I've read this entire post, and still can't determine if the course is on public property or private. If it's on private property, you're SOL.

If it's on public property, go to the Park office. If this happened within our club, the shunned person would walk right into the Park office and explain what happened. Once the Park Rangers realized that the problem does not break Park or State laws, someone from the club would be getting a call soon from the Ranger.

"Hi Jim, it's Ranger Joe. We got a guy here who claims to have differences with your Club. We love all the work that the Club does for the Park, but it's still a Public park. If you want to keep running weekly doubles in a public park, then you can't turn away members of the public."

For us, it would be that simple. No lawyers, no letters written, no outside third parties to mediate. Nothing. One trip to the Ranger's office and the Club's "ban" would be nullified. And it would be a blemish on the club in the Park's eyes.

When I was a wee lad, my parents tought me one life lesson. One I carry true to this day. IF SOMETHING DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU , LEAVE IT ALONE . I think this issue could have been averted had this particular individual has a smidge of common sense.

Suck it up, go play some golf. Make ammends, put your pride to the side .

Check this out. You can be hard nosed and get nowhere. Or you can ammend, repair and contribute to the positive's. Life is too short to worry over such minute things.

My 03 cents
Mini Thumber

Months ago our club held a monthly mini. At the end of the tournament we have a box of used discs and I was seen throwing one of them. I threw it once, didn't like the way it felt and put it back in the box and left.



This is where the story loses some validity. What were you going to do if you liked the way it felt? This reads like you were testing out someones used disc to possibly keep. Am I the only one who noticed that?


So about a month after that, I found a locals disc. Didn't see his name on it since it had been missing for quite some time, so I wrote mine on it. Later that week I seen his name on it and gave it back to him.



Then, you find a disc that you knew had been missing for a while. How did you know that? Can't find a name on it, then you do all of a sudden. The first thing I do when I find someone else's disc is to examine it thoroughly to determine whose it is and if I know them and get it back to them. If there's a name on a disc I find it right away.

These are just some observations I made reading the story. Maybe just the wording is off and misleading. Just playing devil's advocate.

The club had a box of used discs. If I threw it and liked it I would have taken it to the TD and bought it off him for $4. That's all it cost. Not worth taking if you ask me. Secondly, I knew it had been missing for a while cause the guy who I returned it to, said that it had been missing for a while. That's what gave it away, really...I found and picked it up with total intention to return if I had found a name on it. I shoved it in my bag. I guess it had been in our local creek for sometime and had worn away on the name, it was almost the same color as the rim, so I put my name on it, and simply seen later on in the week after closer examination that it was a guy I knew and then proceeded to give it back. This story is long over and done with, I would love to be back with the local group but chances our how I would view them and how they would view me would be skewed, so...thus I'll continue to play in my own group and just come around for PDGA sanctioned events. It's about fun, and the people, if you can't enjoy either than why play at all(more specifically with a certain group). That fun aspect has been lost playing with that group. Thanks for all your input!

When you said lost and found, I didn't realize they were for sale and not waiting to be returned to their owner.

George,
For what it is worth - - Relationships that are repaired can be stronger than those that never had any bumps.

Given that there are pieces of this saga that suggest you could have/should have zigged when you should have zagged, well go ahead and kiss and make up.

Athens golf ain't no different than anywhere else. Drama ain't worth it. After all it IS just a game.

And next time keep your laundry on the local line. You can put one of them little yellow faces in right here, but dang, I never know which one means what.

Sometimes the wise old farts are worth listening to. Somedays I am one of them. Maybe this is my day.

See you in Athens,
Ron Pittman

I appreciate your words of wisdom Ron. From what I've heard of you and the times I've seen you out at Athens golf, you've been an encouragement to me. The sport of disc golf is meant to be fun. Athens took that away from me, when they accused me of things that no one had any proof of and had no reason to accuse me of. Everytime I've been out there and played with the Flyers it's been fun. That's why I made an effort to be at every tournament, every night at doubles, bag tag rounds, purchase stuff from the club for the purpose of course improvement, told others about the sport, etc...things we all do that contribute just a little to making things better. I would love to continue to be a part of that group and mend things, cause the Flyers are a well run group and make up 99% of the disc golf community in this tiny little town of Athens. But Bill won't hear about it, I've tried talking to him, and he's very one way about it all. So I would rather play with a few then a huge group and have fun with people that will hear what I have to say and stand by my side not in my way. That's all. Thanks again for your input. Hopefully I'll see you this weekend if you make it down to Athens, for the 33rd...

Big George Anthony III ( Here's how it's done!) ;)

Just a comment on George's supposed "innocence". The disc that was lost and then returned by George was not done so nearly as courteously as he would have you believe. The disc belonged to a long time friend of mine and I was with him when it was returned. When it was lost the only markings on the bottom of the disc were his name and phone # and possibly his PDGA info ( I can't remember if he was a member at the time). When it was returned, the rim had been colored solid black with sharpie marker. We went to my house after finishing our round and decided to try and clean the sharpie off. We found online that rubbing alcohol would work somewhat so we tried that. With the first wipe, most of the blacked out was diluted and you could read what was written underneath. First off was "George Anthony III, Cotton Pickin Flyers" and underneath that, faded but still clear and readable was my friend's name and phone #.
There was also an incident where my brother and cousin (other casual Athens players) saw George picked up a disc that was not his. They checked and it wasn't his, but my cousins(Athens is a long course and it was possible that their drives could be in the same spot from different holes, so they didn't confront him right away). The disc was more than adequately labeled yet, he never called or otherwise tried to return the disc.
Just thought the other side of this issue needed to be explored by someone other than George who is aware firsthand of what is going on.

From my side of the story...

About the first disc. I had found it after it had been lost for who knows how long. Now I agree whole heartedly that other options should have been taken such as turning it in or something else, but at that point upon a quick glance no one's name was on it( as it had been sitting in a creek for a long time) so I put it in my bag. What everyone is seeming to overlook, after I had put my name on it, and seen the other guys name on their faintly I GAVE IT BACK!!! DUH! I didn't keep it, I seen it was his and gave it back. Man that sure doesn't sound like a disc theif to me and then when confronted about it and asked to "make it right" I bought him a brand new one to replace the one I had "stolen" and then was accused of having stolen that one.

The second disc is probably still laying where his cousin threw it. I seen him throw his disc, I had thrown a couple of mine as well as warmups before our weekly doubles round and when asked about it I told him where it was and that I hadn't picked it up. They went over to look for it and didn't find it.

There's nothing else I can say. I've asked for forgiveness from the Athens group leader and asked to make it right even though I've done nothing wrong. HE won't respond to my e-mails and if he does they are derogatory. I would much rather be a casual player and enjoy the game of disc golf then be part of a club that is opioniated and won't listen to a word you say. And accuses you of things they've heard from a friend who heard from a friend who heard from that friend. Thanks but no thanks!

saw