I was wondering what either people thought about non-members signing upi for PDGA event. I believe that only members of the PDGA should beable to prereq for an event and get I except for the last two weeks.

So if a non-member sends in money to play the TD holds it until the cut off date. This might get more non-member to sign up.

basically, you have to be a PDGA member to play PDGA events.

the PDGA offers memberships per tournament for 5 dollars for B Tiers and lower.

basically, you have to be a PDGA member to play PDGA events.

the PDGA offers memberships per tournament for 5 dollars for B Tiers and lower.



I know this.

What I am saying is that PDGA members should be the only ones to prereg until a cut off date prior to the event then it opens up for everyone.

Topdog, your idea is already optional for any PDGA TD.

Let's not make it mandatory. Give TD's more options, not more conformity.

basically, you have to be a PDGA member to play PDGA events.

the PDGA offers memberships per tournament for 5 dollars for B Tiers and lower.



I know this.

What I am saying is that PDGA members should be the only ones to prereg until a cut off date prior to the event then it opens up for everyone.



But, as soon as a non-member pays the $5 (as part of the pre-reg process) they are a member. :cool:

I see what you mean, but the problem is that these players may not have a number, a rating and do not maintain a current status. I think what Topdog is driving at here is priority for current members during prereg.... $5 doesn't make you current, but just a member for the days of the event.

The fact that TD's don't exercise their right to offer this just shows me that they don't have an incentive to do so. Maybe the PDGA can offer some incemtive to TD's to give priority to current memebrs without taking away any control or current options?

It is an extra unnecessary thing to do to keep track of this pre-registration bumping rule or the other pre-registration bumping rule so most TDs just go with no bumping. You want to play? Send me your money. You got good reasons for not sending me your money? Fine, but this gentleman wants to play. :)

basically, you have to be a PDGA member to play PDGA events.

the PDGA offers memberships per tournament for 5 dollars for B Tiers and lower.



I know this.

What I am saying is that PDGA members should be the only ones to prereg until a cut off date prior to the event then it opens up for everyone.



But, as soon as a non-member pays the $5 (as part of the pre-reg process) they are a member. :cool:



exactly!

It is an extra unnecessary thing to do to keep track of this pre-registration bumping rule or the other pre-registration bumping rule so most TDs just go with no bumping. You want to play? Send me your money. You got good reasons for not sending me your money? Fine, but this gentleman wants to play. :)



What Bruce said.

As a TD, the faster my event sells-out the quicker I can get to the business of day-of details and stop worrying about whether my player pack stuff is the right count, or how much lunch I have to prep or what and how many trophies to order, how much am merch to have on hand, how cash for pro payout do I need. Once the event sells out, I have the numebrs and I can start getting all that stuff lined up. 2 weeks is the bare minimum, a month is great.

As a TD, I don't want to turn away anybody who is showing that they are ready to play by sending in their reg to me now, in hopes that some other player might send it to me later. Show me you want to play my event by signing up sooner rather than later.

I hope we all understand the difference between the current way things are done, and the way things could be. I am not against a TD getting their event full. But with the progress in technology, couldn't the PDGA offer something like a paypal aaccess to members way before the event is advertised to the non-members,,, I just think it could be part of the benefits that we as PDGA members get. Priority over non-members with some sort of way to ensure it.... Maybe it just won't work, but hey, I'm a dues paying member who says I want priority....

Run a tournament and then check back and tell me if you still feel the same way. Better yet, run a tournament that is 30% full 2 weeks before the event, and ends up being 90% full. You might regret having turned away those non-PDGA members.

Non-PDGA members are our future and should be encouraged as much as possible to play. TD's are what keep the tournament scene alive, and we should do all that we can to make their lives easier. Leaving the tournament registration in limbo 2 weeks or less before a tournament does not accomplish that goal. Having to reserve spots for particular people does nothing but give overworked TD's a bigger headache to deal with (yet is often necessary to ensure a decent pro field).

In Norcal, we've got a history of pros thinking they can show up the day of the tournament or call the night before and still get in. This is starting to change, and we need encourage this.

For NT and A tier tournaments, fine, PDGA membership is already required. For all other tournaments, the TD should be able to do what they choose. Becoming a "members only" tournament club is not what grassroots disc golf is about, nor will it help build the tournament scene.

The PDGA has done a great job keeping things fair among all ranks. But what of the small minority that decide to pay a $5 member fee each tournament to play an entire series of ournaments just so they do not actually become a member, because they know that their rating would be higher than the division thay want to play in?

Is it just a matter of encouraging those individuals to become a member so that one day they may have a 'divisional conscience'? Or is it a matter of tolerating a persons actions and giving a godd example and hope they may some day decide they are tired of bagging and play the game like everyone else?

The PDGA has done a great job keeping things fair among all ranks. But what of the small minority that decide to pay a $5 member fee each tournament to play an entire series of ournaments just so they do not actually become a member, because they know that their rating would be higher than the division thay want to play in?

Is it just a matter of encouraging those individuals to become a member so that one day they may have a 'divisional conscience'? Or is it a matter of tolerating a persons actions and giving a godd example and hope they may some day decide they are tired of bagging and play the game like everyone else?



Personally I doubt its about the members not wanting rated. I know in my area most people would rather pay the $5 for the 4-6 tournaments they play in that require it, then get a $50 membership that is almost worthless to them (not my thoughts but theres).

As I stated in a different thread, there needs to be a low level cheap 10-15$ membership fee that entitles people to join the PDGA for a number and ratings only. Ten make all tournaments require this membership as a minimum, except D level tourneys.

I et very tired hearing the same things from people on why they don't join the PDGA but it all comes down to cost v's the number of tourneys they play a year.

My guess is that the majority of PDGA members played their first tournament as a $5 temporary member....or in a non-sanctioned event.

When you're talking to a non-tournament-playing rec player about trying out tournaments, if you tell him it will cost $80 ($50 mandatory membeship plus $30 entry fee), he'll likely pass on the whole thing. Getting him into that first tournament is the first step towards more tournaments and, hopefully, PDGA memberships.

I'd personally like to see the non-member fee dropped in some places (perhaps C-tiers, intermediate division & below) to encourage more new players, or allow TDs to offer them a low-entry-fee option (say, $10 or $15).

I'm most in favor of giving TDs leeway, as others have mentioned, and not mandating something to make sanctioning any more work than it already is.

...or how about non-member/beginner-ONLY tournaments. Play 2 (or 3) and receive a membership for $25.

- a great opportunity to show new DG'ers the rules and etiquette.

.02

IMO, I think the PDGA should offer something like a $25 membership to players at their 1st tournament, similar to other introductory offers. I think we could get alot of rec and novice players signing up this way.

Just my $.02-
As a Player I'm all for joining the PDGA and the benefits you get with the membership. Also as a TD, I encourage ALL players to come out and support local tourneys. Then as a traveling player, I would hate to get bumped by a non-PDGA member (or any other player) at a sanctioned event. Personally, I try to pre-reg but sometimes, like work was scheduled and then cancelled, I might find myself available for a tourney I didn't plan on. Then I try to contact the TD and get the scoop on their event. I believe that 's the right course. Would I call the TD out if I showed up and there was no room? Probably not, but I guess it would depend on the situation.

the bump rule has already been proven to be a bad idea.

a $10 membership that gets you the right to play events, a number, and a rating on the other hand is a great idea. imo there need to be this sort of membership available and pdga events should then go members only.

I love when TD's give out PDGA memberships for the highest finishing non PDGA member or for a CTP for non members

Non-members getting bumped from a tournament because of current members wanting to get in is actually a pretty good idea. The person who gets bumped will either pay for a membership or he/she may not ever play again. Still a good idea though. imo.

So you'd have the non-member who pre-regs two weeks out gets bumped by the PDGA member that waited until he saw the weather on the 10 o'clock news the night before? I don't think so.

I myself don't agree with being unfair to non-members, but on the other hand, I think a bit of special treatment to members would be good. Having closed pre-registration period way in advance would be great. You could do the same thing on the day of the event. Have members only sign-up from like 7:00-7:30, and then open reg from 7:30 to 8:30... Something like that.

The original post was a suggestion that current members get priority for pre-registration, until 2 weeks in advance. This seems fair to the players, a perk for membership, but doesn't bump the non-member on the morning of the tournament.

However....it only has teeth for events that fill in advance...and is one more burden for TDs, to verify current membership for every pre-reg request.

Also, for early-year tournaments, some members don't renew until their first tournament. Which is really an unnecessary burden on the TD. How do these figure into the bump rule?

Beware the law of unintended consequences. Will such a bump rule push out future members before they ever join? Will it drive some TDs to go non-sanctioned?

These may be good options but I prefer to make them options---not mandatory.

I think the pdga should consider this bump rule for B tier events and up. A b tier is after all double points. And by allowing non members into the tournaments that have nothing to gain only alienates us due paying members. Not to mention all the sandbagging these guys are doing. How many times have you seen a non member fill up on discs from winning intermediate divisions. Too many times. I think the last rating the non member had before he let his membership lapse be used when entering any pdga event. Allow them to pay the temp reg fee and be entered into the correct division for their rating prior to lapsing. And not raise thier rating, but also not allow them to play up unless they register. Just my opinions...

Nonmembers cannot play Rec or Intermediate if the TD doesn't let them regardless of their rating before.

Hey Chuck, check the Tumbleweed Open tourney in Tucson Aug, 25-26. 1/3 of the intermediate field was non members including the winner who crushed the field by 13 strokes. This happens more often than you might think. I do agree with not allowing non members to play int. or rec.

We can't control what TDs do in regard to this other than pressure applied from local members to encourage the TD to not allow bagger nonmembers to play below their level. There are obviously legit first time players that are appropriate in Rec or Int so it's hard to make a firm policy that all nonmembers play Advanced let's say.

If a TD takes the time he could check some of the previous local events and find out how some of the nonmembers did. It could help them decide what division they should be in. Also some TD's will know the local players and can place non members accordingly.

No offense Mutt, but a TD has plenty of other things to do than looking at players previous results. Our responsibility is to verify a member is current or not, true. But the duties of "bagger police" won't cut it in an all voluteer force.

Usually the guys getting beat on a regular basis by a non-member player know exactly what is going on. TD's are not always familiar with out of town players. It really helps the TD if players send emails pointing out that so-and-so won the last three events, or takes cash in every league night. Once TD's are alerted, it is easy enough to look further to see if the player should be moved up.

Please don't wait until the event is over to make mention. It doesn't help the TD or the other players at that point.

I guess people can still whine about it on the message board though.

How hard would it be for the P.D.G.A. to provide a free membership package to all B tiers?

How many B-tiers are there? If 300 (wild guess), that's $15,000 in free memberships. Not sure that's the best investment of PDGA resources. A few might renew in future years....but then some regular members might not renew in hopes of winning a free membership.

Which is not to dismiss the idea....just a factor to bear in mind.

Recently, at the SF safari I did exactly that and emailed the TD about a career Am2 player with a 930 rating, and the TD did bump that one player. A week before the event I noticed a non-rated, non-member who had played this event for the past five years in Am2 and had cashed 3 times and placed 5th out of 67 players in 2006. I emailed the TD, but he said he knew about it and that is was too late to move him to the Adv, division??

He won the Am2's and took home some sweet merch! I am sure they will probably bump this guy next year, but the damage is done. He was unofficially a 930-940 rated player for the past couple of years based on this event, so he was clearly sand-bagging...

Maybe there should be somewhere in the pdga that lists all nonmembers that have played pdga events and there ratings for played events that would give tds an idea of where the nonmember should be playing. And why give free membership to someone for bagging in a tourney. I payed my dues this year and haven't even played in one tourney.

why not just make the temp fee a real, low-end membership? they'd get a pdga number and ratings, and a mailing or two from the office to try to get them to stay on as a full member. if they stay, great... if not, well, we've put a number (and rating) to the name, so no more blatant bagging

Another consideration is that this is a different issue in different regions. In South Carolina and neighboring states, it's hardly a problem---I researched a bunch of tournaments one time and there were very few top-5 finishers who were non-members, and no cases of the same person in multiple events. I gather from the discussion board that it happens much more frequently in other areas (Norcal was the one that was brought up). Then there are areas such as SN territory where PDGA membership is low and most events non-sanctioned; any solutions that are punitive to non-members or burdensome for TDs might worsen the situation there.

I'm not offering a solution and Sandalman's may be the right one. Just a caution to consider the consequences of different ideas in various situations.

What does the $5.00 non member fee go towards?

Personally I believe for paying $5.00 per event, the PDGA could at least give the person a number and a rating. But thats all they would get. This alone would solve the whole issue, except at D tiers.

The only problem that would need to be fixed then would be for a way to view all members current and not currents ratings. If you paid the $5.0 temp fee then you'd still just be a non current member, but your ranking would be shown.

I would agree on a low end membership fee that gives someone ONLY a number and a rating. It would generate alot more people to join the pdga and let tds know where everyone is best suit to play. Bagging has been an issue forever and will continue to be an issue but there is no reason why we as players, the tds, and the pdga shouldn't do everything in its power to make things a little more fair for everyone. even if it means a lower end membership.

Make it a requirement that nonmembers entering an am divison may either pay a reduced Trophy Only entry fee to enter Intermediate or Rec division and only play for the trophies and get the player pack (if any), or they may pay the full price to enter the Advanced division. Still have the $5 nonmember fee. No chance for local baggers to take advantage of this unless they should be playing Open and the TD lets them play Advanced.

This would also be great for legit new players because they would all be paying low entry fees and if they get scorched by an experienced bagger, it wouldn't be taking merch prizes away from them. Current and new PDGA members in Intermediate and Rec would be the only ones playing for merch in those divisions. Any new player or nonmember that wants to go for the merch can always enter Advanced. Having merch prizes only for PDGA members in Intermediate and Rec would be a member benefit for our new lower rated ams and might be an additional incentive to join on the spot.

why not just make the temp fee a real, low-end membership? they'd get a pdga number and ratings, and a mailing or two from the office to try to get them to stay on as a full member. if they stay, great... if not, well, we've put a number (and rating) to the name, so no more blatant bagging



dingdingding- we have a winner- hopefully you can convince the rest of the board.

If only there was some way to track the ratings of non-rated players who only play a few events per year. Maybe we could make a system where a TD records the rounds of all the players after a sanctioned event and sends them in to the PDGA. Then the PDGA could rate the players and make sure things were fair......Oops!! thats right.... I almost forgot, we already have a system like that....Wonder why we can't seem to get it to work to our benefit???

Admin costs of a low end membership can end up more than what you bring in. I don't think the PDGA would be wise to provide ratings cheaply, especially when the magazine value is potentially suspect for next year.

If only there was some way to track the ratings of non-rated players who only play a few events per year. Maybe we could make a system where a TD records the rounds of all the players after a sanctioned event and sends them in to the PDGA. Then the PDGA could rate the players and make sure things were fair......Oops!! thats right.... I almost forgot, we already have a system like that....Wonder why we can't seem to get it to work to our benefit???



Has something to do with the high price of joining the PDGA, so they have to make it feel like it is a benefit of being a member. I have been into so many rated games, sports etc, and 90% of them don't even charge memberships to be rated. You pay to play a tournament then the larger organizations rate players, for free... now Imagine that. Sure you have to fill out the paperwork to be a member, but no cost. This is huge in the gaming industry BTW, Yu-Gi-Oh has huge rating system and no cost membership, and touring pro's make more then our top pros do... all for a playing card game... but then again, the whole tournament mentality is based around the game manufacturers, and not some club or non profit org.

Admin costs of a low end membership can end up more than what you bring in. I don't think the PDGA would be wise to provide ratings cheaply, especially when the magazine value is potentially suspect for next year.



Chuck, I am not sure why you say this, a low end membership that only gets a number and ratings should take up $0 in admin cost. If this isn't true then there is more of a problem with the front end admin of the PDGA, that it's members should be looking into.

A low end member sends in money (say 10.00), they are given a member ID, sent a card and letter (should cost less then 50 cents) ad there ratings are kept in the DB (no cost because the info is there and already being ran). Add to this the benefit that the PDGA can show more members which looks good to prospective supporters and marketing.

If scores were automatically tallied electronically in disc golf, ratings would have been around a long time ago. Chess has ratings, membership and ratings fees comparable to our sport and players have to be members to play in events.

Nonmembers already get round ratings if they look at the event postings. It's not hard to figure out exactly what your round ratings are once the official ratings are posted and even the unofficial ones. Dave's not around until next week to confirm but I thought the member file sent to TDs has ratings for nonmembers in their area included? Any TDs reading this get their PDGA member file for an event in the past few weeks to confirm?

I think it would be hard for the PDGA to offer a low end membership for less than $25 once all of the economic tradeoffs are considered and I would not think ratings would be included. That's just my sense of the economic dynamics among all of the tradeoffs relative to full membership.

"and players have to be members to play in events"

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but we have a problem with non-members when they take advantage of the system. The TD still has to send in the info.... So what happens then, you guys must have to do something to keep it out of the ratings system? So why can't you just calc the players and post it unofficially, no links, no history, just a number for the TD....

I think we do but I can't confirm. At minimum, all we need to do is list the minimum division code on the regional member/nonmember lists sent to the TDs for events and not even worry about ratings for Ams on that list. Easier for TD to immediately spot the proper division without having to interpret ratings and breaks.

So what happens to the guy that had a rating and he lapsed, and now wants to play another tourney. Shouldn't his old rating be in effect since he was already rated? If not, why not? Is it just my understanding this $5 is a a temporary membership fee? or is it a penalty fee for not being a member?

Thats part of my point. If its a temporary fee then the player should get a number and a rating.

Also, Chuck why 25.00. Or better yet, why do you think membership is worth anything? Chess does not require membership to play at most sancitioned events, and when I last played competitively you atuomatically got rated, even non members. Now big competitions you did have to be a member.

Also, I am not sure why you think a rating is worth so much monetarily? Even more, I would like to know the average rounds an AM1, AM2, and AM3 player has in there ratings calc in a given year. I am sure most players newer to PDGA would not have a ton. To me Ratings mean very little, I can tell how well I am playing, and if I am getting better or not on my own with how I play in tournaments.

Admin costs of a low end membership can end up more than what you bring in. I don't think the PDGA would be wise to provide ratings cheaply, especially when the magazine value is potentially suspect for next year.



Considering you are paid to provide this service for the pDGA, don't you feel you're a little biased? Don't wont an RFP, eh?

I'm not speaking from any hard calculations but from what I believe those who would make those calculations might believe. The perceived value of the ratings to members appears to be much greater than what Roger and I actually receive under contract so that's of minimal impact to the question here. If the direct costs to provide membership services ever rises to match the perceived value to those who renew, the PDGA is in big trouble, just like a company who can't provide products for a direct cost that's much less than what customers are willing to pay.

The same thing must be considered in any lower tier membership. There are several dynamics involved with one being overhead support and how that would be allocated fairly between full versus discounted memberships. And most important, the estimated value judgment of thousands of players on whether the value difference between the two offerings roughly matches the pricing difference.

Hey Chuck, plain english please for that last post, your much smarter than most of us, from what I hear. And also should a previously rated persons rating be used for future tournaments if he is no longer a current member? Also is the $5 a penalty or a temporary registration?

It's a $5 nonmember fee. You can label it either of those alternatives but that's not what it's called in print.

Many TDs and clubs track players in their areas via leagues so they know how well they play whether they are PDGA members or not. A TD may use whatever information they want to place nonmembers in a division and can require someone to play Open if they enter. If they know what a nonmember's old rating was they can use it or not as a reference.

After reading the past few posts, I have to go back to my original point. I think someone who is a non-rated, non-member should have two options when they come to a sanctioned event.
1) They can play in an open division ie; pro or adv. for trophy only
2) They can play in Recreational

If ratings are as important as some people say, then they should mean something. If we have ratings protected, or age protected divisions, I think someone should have to prove their position prior to being allowed to compete for cash or merch prizes in that division. That proof IMO should be confirmed through the process of joining the PDGA. Non-member, non-rated players are not all out to sand-bag, but it happens too much. I think we need to give the current PDGA members the advantage and not the other way around. If membership and ratings are worth anything, I think thats the main point. :D

It's not an advantage to Open players if a nonmember can't pay full price. They should be required to pay full price, same with the Advanced.

PS..

I have heard the typical arguement about getting members by allowing the non-members to play in Am2 etc... But at what cost? How many current members are getting fed up and will not renew, and how many of these $5 newbees are going to actually join? seems like a double edged sword. We must be able to come up with a way to make events appealing to non-members without giving them everything for nothing. Most of the people who play and don't join have made that their modus-operandi

I'm personally not in favor of lower entry fees. I think if they want to play, thats fine, but pay the fees. But if you want member benefits like cash prizes, merch and protected division play and a rating, join or play somewhere else.

The member benefit in Open would be to have the option for a lower entry fee for Trophy Only. No need for members to be 'protected' in an Open division below A-tiers. In theory, being a member in A-tiers and above provides the benefit of access to the added cash the event organizers worked hard to obtain for pro divisions.

Exactly. I may have some of my wires crossed on this from time to time, but I think it is common sense that if you are a non-member, non-rated you should have to play open. If you are an Am play advanced. If you are a pro, play open. If you are really new play rec. But if you want to reap the benefits of being a member.... join. I think age protection and ratings protection are one of our member benefits that should be for members only... 0.02

Better yet, lets just force a non member only division that plays only trophy. That way we can keep them out of PDGA sanctioned divisions.

Does anyone actually relay all these good ideas to the pdga, or are we just sorta talking about it? I would hope that someone from the pdga is watcing for better ideas, to not only this issue, but other issues as well. These forums are a great place to get ideas to improve the way things are now. I agree with the trophy only idea also.

If our PDGA board isn't watching ideas on here maybe we should be watching them closer? This is the place for members to voice opinons and concern, should they not be paying attention?

Many BOD are active here on the DISCussion board. I know that these issues are well known to them.

One issue I see that is related, is the level of control the PDGA has.

The sport is where it is today because of the work done by TD's and the voluteers involved behind the scenes and the flexibility they have to organize the events.

It is very difficult to set what the right amount of PDGA control is from region to region...

As far membership benefits go, I think it is time for a change in the level of control to ensure a valuable membership package, otherwise members will not renew. I could easily start paying my five bucks for each event I attend. My level of play varies from year to year, and I participate in a non-sanctioned series each year. So I could avoid sanctioned events all together, or I could save 10 or 15 bucks a year by not renewing a still go to a few events. I want more out of being a dues paying member. If ratings are just a guideline, and no one really has to be a current memebr to play in sanctioned events, and can get the same exact prizes, and they don't really need a rating or proof of age, then why even join?

Senior, I agree. I see little benefit for the $50.00 I pay. I do pay it because I like to try and support the PDGA, but Every year I have to really consider the value and worth. Personally I don't even get much from the magazine, since all the information is online, and the articles are not that great or not geared to me as an am player.

If I am paying $50.00 for rights to be rated and post on a Forum, then thats a waste of my money and I also wonder where money is being wasted inside the PDGA budget. The budget that is posted is so vague as it is, as a non profit the members have a right to a more detailed budget then what is shown. Also I ave never seen a breakdown to where our membership fees are applied.

i made a motion to the current BoD that we release the more detailed monthly financials, and it was voted down. steve and i were the only ones in favor, if i remember correctly. at some point the minutes should have the details.

I do like the idea of the magazine. It does have alot of very informative and interesting articles. It also shows how well our sport is doing. But from what I understand the magazine will no longer be made. Or not being made part of our membership benefits. I know that will also be a major factor in whether or not some members re-new. And it is true, why join or re-new if we are actually losing what little benefits we have and paying more money. That doesn't seem to difficult to see or understand.

Sandalman, Can you ask the BoD to release a % of where our membership dues actually go to.

magazine RFPs are being reviewed now. from the looks of the submissions, we will have an outstanding magazine next year for those who choose to receive it. no one loses a benefit or pays more.

yeah i can ask. i saw the breakout once, it was interesting. definitely was a worthwhile perspective. i think (not sure) that the breakout was provided to state coordinators maybe 4-6 months ago.

I think you get more than ratings and a message board for your $50 (or whatever you pay, based on your division).

You get:
- A sanctioning body that organizes a yearly tournament tour including 100's of tournaments, calculates tour points across many divisions, determines invitees for the World Championships, etc.

- An organization that monitors, reviews and revises the rules of play and is recognized as the "keeper" of those rules.

- An organization that screens, selects and assists the organizations that host the universally-recognized World Championships each year. The PDGA wasn't able to do that in 1984, but has been able to do it ever since.

- An organization that is the clearing house, organizer and publisher of the most extensive listing of disc golf courses that any of us have ever seen.

- An organization that continually looks for ways to promote the sport, and find major sponsorships on a national level.

- An organization that monitors and protects the technical standards that guide the discs and targets that we use to play the game.

- I could go on, but it's Friday night and the Padres are still playing, so...

Do you belong to any other non-profit organizations? Do you expect more than your membership dollar in swag from them? With the size of our membership base, I think the dues are reasonable.

I never said it wasn't worth it, and like you say the ratings and boards are not the only benefit, just the that the ratings are what Chuck and others are toting as such a huge benefit, and why it is part of this particular dicusion, because many of us are feed up with non members, non rated players in our tournaments taking away prizes in divisions they are over playing.


I think you get more than ratings and a message board for your $50 (or whatever you pay, based on your division).

You get:
- A sanctioning body that organizes a yearly tournament tour including 100's of tournaments, calculates tour points across many divisions, determines invitees for the World Championships, etc



We have a nation that has more local tournaments then PDGA sactioned ones. And my guess to why is that it makes clubs more money, and is easier then having to deal with loosing money to sanctioning, and doing all the extra stuff required.


- An organization that monitors, reviews and revises the rules of play and is recognized as the "keeper" of those rules.


Not sure how often or how many rules have changed, but I doubt this takes a lot of resources.


- An organization that screens, selects and assists the organizations that host the universally-recognized World Championships each year. The PDGA wasn't able to do that in 1984, but has been able to do it ever since.



A lot of the people that help with this are non paid if I remember correctly. Hence this does not take from our membership fees.


- An organization that is the clearing house, organizer and publisher of the most extensive listing of disc golf courses that any of us have ever seen.


Many times I can find courses and better information by doing google searches, or looking for local clubs. Adding player reviews, maps, scorecards, and more would be worth the extra fees. I can show you dozens of sites that do a better job then what the PDGA is supplying.


- An organization that continually looks for ways to promote the sport, and find major sponsorships on a national level.


They are working on this, but I would argue it could be done with much more priority.


- An organization that monitors and protects the technical standards that guide the discs and targets that we use to play the game.


If indication of the last few boards minutes are correct, then the person doing this is a non paid person, donating there time.


- I could go on, but it's Friday night and the Padres are still playing, so...

Do you belong to any other non-profit organizations? Do you expect more than your membership dollar in swag from them? With the size of our membership base, I think the dues are reasonable.


I belong to many non profits, sit on several boards also. Some bigger, some smaller. Non are as costly as the PDGA, and non run as largely on membership fees as the PDGA does. Most non profits have a larger range of donations, outside sourcing, and partnershiping.

Also on terms with the magazine. This should be close to costing the members nothing, but as hard as I looked through the budget I can not find where the income from ad's are at. My bet is that either the PDGA doesn't want to show how much they bring in from ad's to deter from the actual cost of the magazine, or that they are not charging nearly enough for ad space. But anytime you market an item as a benefit, taken from the cost of membership, you want it to truely seem like its a benefit that is costing members something. Sorta like when you win plastic at a tournament and the TD uses the retail pricing instead of he cost.

Again, I pay to be a member, and will. But to get the tournaments sorted out better and have everyone rated should be a priority for paying PDGA members. Otherwise it is a roulette wheel type of tournament structure, where the unknown, unranked players are ruining our sanctioned events.

The only ads the PDGA gets paid for are ads on the website. The magazine is independently published and the PDGA just buys issues from the publisher for the membership and in return gets so many pages in the magazine for PDGA news. That annual price per member the PDGA pays for the magazine I think has been shown in the budget as around $15 give or take a $1.

Yes, a lot of volunteer work is done on behalf of PDGA members. That's why you need the paid staff "ringleaders" at headquarters to organize, direct, coordinate and prepare the information and programs for widespread use among members. If this key "communications clearinghouse" work wasn't done, you'd have many people unnecessarily reinventing the wheel in their local areas. They do that now as it is. It's too bad that some of their efforts can't be contributed to the common good thru the PDGA to make its services that much better for the disc golf community at large and reduce the duplication of effort.

The only ads the PDGA gets paid for are ads on the website. The magazine is independently published and the PDGA just buys issues from the publisher for the membership and in return gets so many pages in the magazine for PDGA news. That annual price per member the PDGA pays for the magazine I think has been shown in the budget as around $15 give or take a $1.



Wow, I didn't realize that is how we were doing our magazine, no wonder this new push is going on. Mst magazines, even small ones make more money from advertising then is needed to publish a magazine, meaning that all the people who subscribe or buy it are pure profit. I have worked for publishers, and independent magazines for 12 years and not a single magazine relied on subscriptions to pay for itself and staffing.

My apologies for contributing to the thread drift, but I agree with MCOP that the current method of financing the magazine is inefficient. Is it correct to say that the publisher currently is paid for the issues by the PDGA AND makes money from the sale of advertisements? If so, that's clearly a flawed strategy on the part of the PDGA on behalf of it's members. Also, I believe that the PDGA should have exclusive control over the content of the magazine, as it is primarily distributed to PDGA members, as opposed to just a limited amount of pages for PDGA news.

On the topic of non-members playing PDGA events, I agree with both suggestions of either having non-members play in their own division or being forced to play in the most difficult division available, and I will support any forthcoming guidance from the PDGA on this issue.

I agree with both suggestions of either having non-members play in their own division or being forced to play in the most difficult division available .

Are you serious ........
We cant even get the top end players who are proven to be able to play at the top level play in the " most difficult division " , explain to me why a player who is trying his/her first disc golf tourney who is a non member should play in the " most difficult division "

because, it is an open division...

Not a ratings protected division,,,,

So if you are an unknown, unrayed player, you should have to get a rating

Hey Chuck, check the Tumbleweed Open tourney in Tucson Aug, 25-26. 1/3 of the intermediate field was non members including the winner who crushed the field by 13 strokes. This happens more often than you might think. I do agree with not allowing non members to play int. or rec.


From Chuck
We can't control what TDs do in regard to this other than pressure applied from local members to encourage the TD to not allow bagger nonmembers to play below their level. There are obviously legit first time players that are appropriate in Rec or Int so it's hard to make a firm policy that all nonmembers play Advanced let's say.



Would it be constructive if the non member cashed, either money or prizes, that the first part of his winnings was a PDGA membership at the level of the division in which he just played before he could collect additional bounty? The first $50 / $75 came out to make him a member.
That would be simple to do for the TD for Pro divisions, a little harder for Ams since the place prizes are likely sorted and prepared the night before. I'm not sure how the Pro who wins $74 would be handled or the am with $49 in prizes. Possibly pass that along to the PDGA Office with the other fees and let them solicit membership and award PDGA magazine or other appropriate prizes. It would be necessary for the TD to mark the scoreboard cards to easily track these non members but not that hard to do. And yes I say this as a TD ( or more recently asst.) for over 20 years.
That would answer the ratings issue because the best players would be paid current members with ratings after their first 'cash' and not penalize the lower finishing non members who probably don't care if they even know what ratings determine.


Chuck,
How often does a non member 'cash'? I'm sure you can come up with some informative graph showing this in each division and if it is more prevalent in Spring than Fall. And how it has changed year to year. Actually it would be more interesting comparing 2006 to 2009 after some of the major changes of these two years settle. [Fee increase and magazine uncertainty].

Any solution regarding nonmembers has to take the TDs perspective into account. Most TDs do not want to turn anyone away regardless of member status. There are some areas of the country where events can fill with all PDGA members so those TDs may be less interested in nonmember accommodation. But that's still a smaller percentage of events at this time.

I have tried off and on over the years to get the PDGA to make discounted PDGA memberships available for TDs to use as prizes, especially for Ams. However, that still hasn't happened. Unless the discount is roughly equivalent to the wholesale/retail differential TDs get for other merch, TDs will be less inclined to participate in the promotion of membership prizes, especially since there's additional paperwork and prize calculations involved to do it compared with disc prizes.

I still think restricting nonmembers to Trophy Only entries in the Int and Rec divisions is the easiest solution for bagging. I could go either way on extending that policy to Advanced so if a nonmember wants to play for prizes, they need to be a member unless they pay full entry fee in a pro division. This doesn't require the PDGA to track and send out an old nonmember ratings list nor does it require TDs to check anything other than whether a player is a member. The TD report handles Trophy Only calculations already so that's no problem.

I'm not sure there's time to include this idea as an official policy for next year. But we could consider including it as an anti-bagging suggestion for TDs in their info packs. The idea is already legal to do right now for any TDs reading this since it involves nonmembers and not members.

I'm not suggesting turning anyone away, just making the first part of payout to non members, a PDGA membership. And as stated, I'm speaking for myself as a TD. It's not that much more work. Though I have argued that any more demands on a volunteer TD are too many.

Basically I'm saying if a non member benefits from the work done by the PDGA itself and the TD, he should be a member. Only members reap the spoils, and anyone can still enter with just the $5, but if you cash, you join. Especially with the a la carte memberships, opting out of the magazine etc. there will be a lower level of membership & fee (price point) created so it might be easier than the $50 - $75.

That's perfectly fine for TDs to do right now if they wish. I'm just suggesting that it hurts the TD for the payout calculation unless the memberships are provided to them at a discount equivalent to other merch.

It's all good and what not, but to really get to te heart of it I still only see 2 real solutions.

1. Reduce the cost drastically to Rec/Int membership, so that it is required to play and get a rating.
2. Create a non member only division, so they don't play against PDGA players, and they only play for trophy in that non member division.

I agree with everyone, Why should a non member get any benefits, or cash, merchandise from a tournament when they are not a member.

So either make it easy and cheap to get new members, or at least members who receive an ID and a rating. Or make it so they can't benefit from what members should be benefiting from.

I would also agree we should be seeing a count on how many non members have cashed at events, and maybe the total vale the members have lost due to this.

I just looked at 2 random August B tiers and the cashers in Adv , Int, and Rec. Over Half did not ave a membership or a rating.

MCOP, I'm not sure you're considering TDs in your options. The TDs are not beholden to the PDGA for holding events. They do it primarily because it's perceived to be a value to their players and draws more participants. It's to the benefit of our members on balance to have nonmembers participate in events. Anything that requires more effort than it already is for TDs in regards to sanctioning and chases away players is a loss for the PDGA and its membership since more events would not be sanctioned. There's no need to look to the PDGA for a solution. It's within the TDs power to resolve this right now if they're willing to take the steps suggested.

Chuck you make ne very good point, the TD's, however I would think we need to look at what would help the TD's in running and supporting there events more, and make sanctioned events more guided, not more loose. I don't think any other respectable sport would look at events as loosely and leniant as disc golf does. If this were a PDGA, Nike tour, etc golf event the tour stops would be discontinued, If it was another sport, the guidelines would be sent and the avenues would adhere to what was sent or loose the event. I think there should be a good balance between making it easier for TD's, and more structured. I sometimes shake my head on what TD's have to go through already, but what I posted above should not make events harder to run, or put more on TD's

Also, I would argue. TD's should want PDGA events. It draws people that non sanctioned events won't. If I have choice within 3 hrs of going to a PDGA event, or a local event I will always choose the PDGA one. Why? Ratings? Points? Because I am a PDGA member? There are tons of reasons.

That's perfectly fine for TDs to do right now if they wish. I'm just suggesting that it hurts the TD for the payout calculation unless the memberships are provided to them at a discount equivalent to other merch.



Agreed.

TD's should want PDGA events. It draws people that non sanctioned events won't.



That would be nice if it were true. But the existence of regional orgs like the Southern Nationals, NEFA and developing areas indicate PDGA sanctioning isn't the default choice in many places and might reduce your attendance.

The problem is that if you aren't going to play any A-tiers, why join?

How many tournaments does the average player play in a year?

At most I will play 9 tournaments this year. I've played 6 already, and only 1 more is definite.

Most players will play fewer tournaments than that. Even if I get to 9 this year, I could have paid $5 less by paying the $5 per.

I completely understand why many people would pay the $5 and not renew.

Options: What does a rating cost? $5, $10/year?

How about this: Create an ala carte membership:

$10/year to join +$5 per tourney All you get is a number, board access and rating. If you hit $50, you keep paying.

You must be a member to play except trophy only rec and intermediate.

You'd get a bunch of the folks who don't want to pay $50 who only play the two local tournaments a year.

Sure, you'll lose some full members who will only pay the low fee, but how many? If they still play 5 tournaments and pay $10 +$25 and you don't have to buy them a $15 subscription to a magazine, you're even.

good points.

You'd get a bunch of the folks who don't want to pay $50 who only play the two local tournaments a year.



This to me is the biggest problem and the most frustrating. Why are we loosing potential PDGA members and numbers (very important for marketing and growing sponsorship) by not making the PDGA membership so low cost that we would have everyone possible as a member.

This by itself I would think would be a reason to offer a n frills, very cheap membership to eithe Am players, or make it Rec or rec/int only. If the active PDGA membership increased by 200% wouldn't our efforts for marketing and outside sponsorship start to look a little more at us.

Also your very right, If I didn't plan on 2 A tier's a year why would I even want to be a member? There is no way I would play more then 10 tournaments a year and that s just the break even point. In fact I have 4 family members that aren't PDGA members for the same exact reasons, They play 2-3 tourneys a year each at max... $15 vs. $50.... and they don't care about the "benefits", maybe because the "benefits" for most players is very unbalanced to the cost.

mcop, your assessment seems right. one current difference is that those tours you mention are legitimate, qualified pro tours. that structure is better able to enfirce guidelines. i think this could be the future of disc golf, but it would take the creation of a tour of high purse, qualifiy-only events. even if we only got 5 or 6 the first year, if each one had a 35-45K minimum purse it could make for a nice series.

Sandalman, your right, but those types of tours don't happen without structure in the first place. We have to start somewhere to end up where we want to be in the future.

Without numbers behind the PDGA then there won't be as big as an interest in outside financial support. Without better structuring rules, and tournaments with higher membership numbers then our NT and better tournaments won't be the future of 35K purses.

If the PDGA had 2-3x the numbers, it would be easier to go to a lot of larger companies and seem more legitamate.

The size of the org is irrelevant to sponsors if those members and other people are not watching the game. Until this happens, don't look for much larger purses.

Chuck, that is about as backwards as you can think. As a business owner and someone with over 15 years marketing exp and a degree in it I would 100% disagree. Your looking at marketing from a different perspective. If my business was relate to anything that had to deal with disc golf, fitness, travel etc and was interested in sponsoring either events or players it is not the crowds or coverage I would be looking at. I would be if Disc golf was covered, but it is not. Therefore, I would be looking at how big your memberships is, the number of hits your website is getting, and the media you do have

For a large scale sponsorship I would be looking at wanting:
1. Event recognition to players (players pack, programs, signage)
2. Website ads, links, mention etc.
3. Media recognition (free or reduced ad space, Poster recognition, rights for ad space in all media coverage being sold rights to like video etc)
4. Possible mailing list, email list

I am not sure if NT and A tiers are getting good fundraising and support information to use for local sponsors or not, but I don't know why NT's should be able to get to 35K within 5 years with the right plan.

BTW just for a reference, the US Mini Golf [censored]. has a lot of 10K-20K sponsored national events, and it looks like there Masters Cup and US nationals are going to end up at 100K and 50K purses this year. This is for Putt Putt.

Membership might relate to advertising revenues in publications and website, but has little bearing on sponsorship for events. There may be 100 times as many active players as PDGA members and they don't need to be members to be a market for sponsors IF those players would watch the sport in person or pay to watch via some form of media. But we have a primarily participant (which is fine) not spectator sport as it is today. There's no reason to believe spectatorship will change if we continue to play it the same way we do now.

Disc golf is also much tougher to properly cover the action visually than regular golf and that's already an expensive sport to cover for their narrow, but economically desireable target market. Minigolf has been a strong pay-for-play market for 75 years with 1000 Putt-Putt courses so the sponsor money there isn't surprising. It's paid commercials. It's also very easy and inexpensive to cover their competition in video.

I'm not arguing against having many more PDGA members since that is a good thing, just that sponsorship of events would be some directly related benefit of more members. Seeing more interested eyeballs at or watching events is all sponsors primarily care about.

we could do a series of five events with 40K purses in 2008 if we decided we wanted to. (and i'm not talking about NT-style fake purses that rely on sidebets and skins money to inflate their numbers.)

Where's your funding source?

its already in place. less than 20K is currently needed to complete the funding.

You're proposing a $200K payout over 5 events. I think it would be helpful to indicate where that money comes from?

a combination of entry fees and sponsorships, same place it comes from for every event already. like i said, that part is already handled (except for the final 20K). thats not the point though. the point is that this kind of series is possible today.

Until entry fees are supplying less than 10% of the purse... *yawn*

couldnt agree more... but a nice series of high end events is a good way to bundle things up into an attractive package, even if 35% still comes from entry fees

its already in place. less than 20K is currently needed to complete the funding.



Details, please!

Help those of us who are mathmatically impaired. If 35% of the total $200,000 purse for these 5 events is entry fees, that's a field of 140 paying $100 each, or equivalent, for a total of $70,000. If you're $20,000 short of the goal, you must have $180,000 accounted for, or $110,000 in sponsorships (non-player fees). Reaching a market of 700 players, plus caddies, tournament workers, and spectators---perhaps 1,000 people---that's $110 per person reached for the sponsors to pay?

I'm clearly missing something big here....or misreading the posts. I can't wait to find out what it is.

What would it take to get a rough estimate on the added cost of providing ratings for all players regardless of PDGA membership, and providing that list only to TD�s prior to the event? Would raising the non-member fee for tournaments to $6 cover this added cost?

Only problem is this list would be very long. Hopefully it could be provided online, and searchable. It would also have to be provided well before the event, as opposed to the list of current PDGA members, which is typically provided less than a week prior to an event.

To me, most of the arguments in favor of restricting access to non-PDGA members for tournaments points back to a need for clear guidelines on the transition from Intermediate to Advanced. A rating above 915 is simply not enough. This �bump rule� is easily circumvented by a player without a rating, and in my opinion, unfair for PDGA members that may play well in their first tournament on their home course.

Neil,

The problem with generating player ratings for non-PDGA members is an issue with uniqueness. There is no way to tell if John Smith is the same John Smith that played last month at the XYZ Open. With PDGA members you have PDGA numbers. You cannot do it on addresses, because players will not always give their address. Or if they do, the address may and does change. I don't think we want to ask for Social security numbers, Uncle Sam may get upset, or there will be the problem with the average TD having to keep sensitive data.

And you have to deal with TDs entering Ray, Raynaldo, and Reynaldo all of whom are the same person. Numbers are so much simpler.

- #28238

I think we can end this debate by simply making it mandatory to join the PDGA to play sanctioned events. And dont say it will upset non-members. That is complete BS. I, like thousands of others, PAY GOOD $$$ to join the PDGA and play in PDGA Sanctioned Events, and it is totally unfair for a bagger to come in and pay $5.00 to cheat many paying members!!! The PDGA Tour was designed IMO to host disc golf events for PDGA MEMBERS!

Now someone may say something about a local who only plays 1, 2, 3 or 4 tournaments a year and so joining may not be in their best interest. This is HYPOCRISY on the PDGA's part! How can the PDGA support the sport and itself if it doesnt encourage new members joining, knowing full well that players dont have to be members?!?! We as PDGA members pay our dues to compete against our fellow PDGA members, and where's the justice when a non-member bagger comes in and kicks the crap out of the competition. This person is taking winnings that they technically have no right to have, and it discourages membership when a player knows he can just pay $5.00 to cheat and tournament turnout will be lower knowing that a bagger is going to come in and steal what rightfully belongs to honest working, due paying PDGA MEMBERS!

I am grateful for the PDGA, and appreciate the hard work that everyone does, but when you do the opposite of what your organization was created to do that is when I, and many others, lose respect for those running said organization. Like the PGA tour, if you want to play then you have to join. The only way I would accept a non-member playing, esp. if he's bagging, is to not only pay an additional fee, but forfeit all prizes including trophies. If said non-member wants to win their prizes then said member will join the PDGA.

I don't think you need to vent your frustration at PDGA HQ because requiring membership for B-tiers has been proposed and loudly rejected by TDs. They and clubs are the ones who determine whether to sanction a PDGA event. The PDGA has to provide policies which support the TDs who actually run the events. More TDs seem to reject a required membership versus the current policy, especially in growing areas with few PDGA members so far.

But how are you going to encourage membership if you dont have to join to play? Less players means less money for the PDGA.

Less sanctioning means quite a bit less money and means fewer tournaments for members. It's a balancing act with the TDs being pivotal in the equation.

I understand where you are coming from, but as a TD myself, to allow anyone to just play defeats the entire purpose of the PDGA tour, and having membership fee's to support the PDGA. But with the PDGA not taking a stand years ago and not saying "Hey, the rule is be a member or dont play" it has severely hurt the purpose of being a member in the first place.

Now, I do believe in being democratic and listening to the TD's because they are the ones running everything, but there has to come a time where real leadership comes in and fixes this rule. But why have the PDGA Tour (designed for MEMBERS to showcase their skills) if you do not have to be a member?? Take a stand! There may be drawbacks at first, but it will be the players who will finally win when they say "Hey, I want this tournament. I'll join if it means we'll be sanctioned again." The few TD's should not control the many players. And also, there will eventually be NEW TD's who will take ownership of the tourney's and be true leaders.

IMO, by letting non-members play, you are saying to thousands of paying members we do not matter.

He does have a point.

It may be too late to explore what lower fees and required membership would do.

The are places where you can say you must be a member like the areas where you and GNDuke reside. But there are more areas where that's not the case. Maybe we get a little growth in our hot areas and completely choke our growth in the areas where we'd like to grow such as in New England, parts of the Southern Nationals area, the Rockies and most international markets, for example. If you can come up with a plan to adjust for the diversity of environments, that would be great. But I think it takes that type of creativity to have fair policies suited for everyone.

PDGA policies, IMO, werent made to please everyone. They were made in an attempt to plase PDGA MEMBERS. And if these policies don't please the majority of PDGA MEMBERS then the MEMBERS should have a say in what needs to be done in order to satisfy the majority of MEMBERS.

It's like me walking into a country club, enjoying the perks of all their membership benefits w/o paying membership fees. How fair is that? Honestly?

Did it occur to you that the reason there are non-members is they don't believe the value delivered is worth the cost at this point? In essence, by requiring people to join, you are jacking up the price even higher for something they already don't think is worth the price. If the PDGA owned the courses and TDs were employees, then you might be able to require membership like an athletic club. I think providing better value for the membership price will do more to increase membership than forcing it on people.

Did it occur to you that the reason there are non-members is they don't believe the value delivered is worth the cost at this point? In essence, by requiring people to join, you are jacking up the price even higher for something they already don't think is worth the price. If the PDGA owned the courses and TDs were employees, then you might be able to require membership like an athletic club. I think providing better value for the membership price will do more to increase membership than forcing it on people.



By saying the value is not worth price, you, Chuck Kennedy of all people, are essentialy saying joining the PDGA is not worth it, and therefore discouraging membership right there. Seriously, what kind of person discourages joining the organization they help maintain?

By requiring people to join then eventually more people joining will eventually balance cost and the PDGA can make profits and begin lowering membership fees thus creating more new members. This is especially true when disc golf is continuing to grow each and every year. A prime example is here in BG. Many people wanted a say in what happened for tournaments and courses, and so us board members got together and said if you want a say then you have to join. And when more people joined we lowered our costs from $20 to $5 because more members helped balance out our funding/budget for our needs.

If you want people to join then increase the value of our membership. Form a committee/board and work your butts off coming up with new ideas in getting people to join, and while you do it, listen to the PDGA MEMBERS and listen to what the majority of MEMBERS feel would be the best way to increase membership.

By saying the value is not worth price, you, Chuck Kennedy of all people, are essentialy saying joining the PDGA is not worth it, and therefore discouraging membership right there. Seriously, what kind of person discourages joining the organization they help maintain?




I'm not saying it's not worth it having been a member since 1989, but many feel that way. More importantly, as you point out, the local leadership makes a difference. If few or no events are sanctioned locally, then many won't feel they'll get their money's worth. That's a common situation in developing areas even if the local leadership supports PDGA sanctioning. They annually might have one or two sanctioned events within 100 miles which diminishes what many see as the benefit of the $5 discount compared with nonmembers.

So, it's been a "chicken or the egg" situation. The more PDGA events in the area the better the value for members. But the TDs don't want to run more sanctioned events until they have enough members in the area. One solution was the D-tier which has been eliminated in favor of the new Endowment program which can help build membership in developing areas. Better to offer players the "sugar" of better value than the "vinegar" from forcing players to do something.

Form a committee/board and work your butts off coming up with new ideas in getting people to join, and while you do it, listen to the PDGA MEMBERS and listen to what the majority of MEMBERS feel would be the best way to increase membership.



A committee which you should offer to chair and organize!!! You make it sound SO simple. I wish you luck in your efforts.

Form a committee/board and work your butts off coming up with new ideas in getting people to join, and while you do it, listen to the PDGA MEMBERS and listen to what the majority of MEMBERS feel would be the best way to increase membership.



A committee which you should offer to chair and organize!!! You make it sound SO simple. I wish you luck in your efforts.



If given the chance I would. And I love your pessismistic attitude. Makes me feel SOOOOO good! But I certianly don't see you at least trying to make an effor for change.

That reasoning I very much understand, and somewhat agree with actually, but since there are situations like this then the PDGA must find a way to develop the area's growth of disc golf by working closely with the disc golf manufacturers to help sponosr and support growing clubs. Granted, it will cost manufacturers money, but in order to see the sport grow some sacrifices need to be made. And when that area is developed, tournaments can be offered, and discs can be put into stores and more people will buy and play and it will continue to grow. But I will say the problem being how can you get the disc manufacturers to cooperate and donate, unless they donate everything to the PDGA who donates it to the area and can write everything off as a tax break.

Also, look at all the Affiliate Clubs. Contact them, see if they know any areas looking to develop clubs and courses and work closely with them. An idea we've had in our club is to help develop an area's club and build courses all the while they're paying dues to our club. When the new club can walk on its own then we give them part of their money back to help them get started. There's a few details I'm leaving out simply because we havent discussed it in a while, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Idea's and solutions are out there if people would get together and look for them.

Please forgive my attitude. In all my years of working to promote disc golf, there are many people with great ideas, but few that are willing to do the work to see them through.

Perhaps you are different than the many who have come before you. I hope you can actually make a difference instead of just talking about it.

Bowling Green has been a PDGA hotspot for years. What works there won't necessarily work in a place with one PDGA member in town, the person who just put in the new course with the help of several non-PDGA members.

In fact, it was pretty much this way when Discette lived in Rochester, MN and tried to run PDGA sanctioned events in a nearby town which locals boycotted and refused to even play by paying the nonmember fee.

And I sincerely admire her effort and respect that. It was the loss of the non-members back then, just as it's still their loss today and I admire anyone who does what they can to see growth and promotion of the sport to new members. Unfortunately I am not seeing that. Sure, it is being done in the country, but it's just not at the level I feel we could be at. If the various boards worked closer with the members then we could possibly get things done faster and be one step closer to achieving respect and mainstream credibility. This is what everyone wants, but it's apparent that the two of us have completely differing views on how to do this. So, I'm tired of squabbling, Let's just agree to disagree. There's no way either one of us is going to change each others minds and this will only end up alienating/dividing our fellow members.

Of course people won't pay the ridiculous cost of the PDGA membership. They need a low cost intro. Heck, half the message boards aren't in agreement with the cost vs. what we get out of it. Add to that the BoD won't release financial detailed info on where the membership fees go towards, and you have even more people wondering about it.

We need lower membership fees. Membership should be cheap enough or we should make it Al'a carte so everyone oins, gets a member id and ratings at least, then they can buy what services, benefits they deem worthy.

50.00 for most am's playing 2-5 tourneys a year, heck yeah they will pay the 5.00 fee. This isn't a developemental area issue, its a cost v. rewards issue, and the PDGA has costed themselves out of members.

The ONLY reason I join is because I have at least 2 A tournaments near me a year that I always hope to play in.

Get on the bal and figure this out, THE COST OF MEMBERSHIP IS TO HIGH.

That is an entirely new debate. But I do agree and disagree. It could probably be lower, but I don't mind paying it. I mean it really isnt that hard to save $50 when you have 365 days to do it.

I never said it was feasible or not. What I am is saying is that the new AM's that are not buying into it KNOW it's not worth it.

We either need to get it to where everyone say's Heck yeah thats a value, or they say well if I have to be a member to get benefits at a PDGA tournament then I will join.

Theres really on 3 options:
1. Lower everyones cost to make it more desireable and affordable.
2. Make a low cost new player, or Intermediate and below membership, or a low cost base ratings and number only membership.
3. Make PDGA sanctioned events either be ribbon (trophy only) for non PDGA members, or make a division for non pdga members only with no rewards but trophy only.

I don't care about TD's and if they like it or not. This is not the PTDA (professional TD [censored].) It's the PDGA for Disc Golfer's who are members.

why not prize out memberships to non members who win?thus ending the loss of merch to the members.

That was discussed back several pages, along with the problems it could make, plus where would the 50.00 come from if the player didn't win that much in merch? Now if the PDGA would eat the prize money sure, I bet every TD would love that. But it still has issues we discussed earlier in the thread.

That would take away money from the PDGA. Say you have 30 Int. and you're paying out Top 15 and only 5 are members. Well, that leaves 10 non-members, plus $50 free membership equalling a $500 loss from just one tournament. Now think about how much would be lost with the hundreds of B and C Tiers.

how about a simple ribbon for nonmembers?the tds could inform them at registration that they are not playing for merch.

A few cautions:

Be careful that a solution works in all regions. There are places where membership is high and only minor problems with non-members playing sanctioned events. There are other places where it's apparently a much larger problem. Finally, there are areas where disc golf is big, but PDGA membership is not; if a town has 100 tournament-playing disc golfers satisified with non-sanctioned events, only 5 of which are PDGA members, requiring PDGA membership to play pretty well shuts the door on sanctioned events. A solution that works in one of these areas may cause more problems in others.

Be careful of the Law of Unintended Consequences. If a solution is too burdensome on TDs, they may choose to just go non-sanctioned. It's hard to figure how this helps PDGA members who lose a chance for a sanctioned event. If you require a membership to play, even if membership fees are lowered, you may exclude first-timers from ever trying tournament play due to the high initial cost.

And my ever-present reminder: we're already free to do a lot of this. Anyone can run a C-tier and exclude non-PDGA members, requiring them to either stay out or join. I encourage those unhappy with the situation to do so and demonstrate a better way.

I like a lot of ideas thrown out here and agree this is a problem that needs further attention....I'm just eager for a solution that makes matters better, not worse.

When we recently started talking about this it was in responnse to a very large and poular B tier event. I was proposing amuch more simple solution to this problem that was sort of a gut reaction. Every time I suggest this someone says it will turn players away. But I am not so sure based on what I am reading here. My solution was this simple:

If you are a non-rated, non-member you can only play in one of two divisions. Pro Open or Am Open. End of story.

If you want to enjoy the benefits of playing in a protected division in a sanctioned event then you will have to be a current member with a rating.

When we recently started talking about this it was in responnse to a very large and poular B tier event. I was proposing amuch more simple solution to this problem that was sort of a gut reaction. Every time I suggest this someone says it will turn players away. But I am not so sure based on what I am reading here. My solution was this simple:

If you are a non-rated, non-member you can only play in one of two divisions. Pro Open or Am Open. End of story.

If you want to enjoy the benefits of playing in a protected division in a sanctioned event then you will have to be a current member with a rating.



Every TD has that option right now. Any TD can place any non-member in whatever division the TD desires. I don't think we need another rule. In certain areas this would absolutely cause participation to drop.

Example: Rec only costs $15.00 plus a $5.00 non-member fee. Advanced is $45.00 plus a non-member fee. I can tell the brand new Rec player, who has never been to a PDGA event, he will likely get his $20.00 back in the players' pack and if he shoots in the top half, he will likely walk away with a prize or two. It will be hard to convince this guy playing his first event he needs to shell out $50.00 and he will only get a player pack.

Again, TD's can already do this. Please don't force me and others around the country to put brand new players into Advanced or Pro because a TD in your area don't seem to care what divisions the non-member baggers are choosing.

I think your solution is excellent for a region where non-rated sandbaggers are a problem.

In my area, where that's not a problem, I spend some time convincing local rec players to try tournament play. Paying the membership fee is not an option for these guys---it would make the cost $80 ($30 entry plus $50 PDGA). I'm not sure getting hammered by Advanced players would be that attractive, nor that Advanced players really want these beginners, with poor concepts of rules and etiquette, mixed in.

How does your idea play out in Southern National territory, where almost everyone is a non-PDGA member?

My personal favorite is a hybrid---your idea for B-tiers, the current rule for C-tiers. Let the beginners I'm worried about get their entry in the smaller events; let the bigger-deal B-tiers have a higher standard of PDGA membership either required, or with the restriction to the top Pro & Advanced divisions you suggest.

I don't want to force anything. But there is obviously a lack of control in the current system. TD's have too much to do. I have to agree that the TD should have the control over where a player competes. But what is lacking is specific guidelines to make the TD actually do what is needed for a fair competition. Maybe there should be a requirement for the TD to have ratings and memberships officer to assist at an event.

As for who gets bumped, I am not referring to a recrerational caliber player. If you have never played an event and don't compete in a local legue and are a low rated player, I agree there should be exceptions. But if you are non-rated non-member that plays disc golf regularly and at weekly's/mini's etc.. and have been playing for several years you are fair game for the open divisions. If you want to lie and bag the lowest division you will be subject to whatever the TD thinks is fair. But as for the other protected divisions if are non-rated and not a member and are a regular golfer you should have to play in an open division. I don't think we should turn away first time tournament golfers, just limit where they can play. For example, you either can play rec or advanced. If the player says, hey I am too good for rec, then their option is to play up or join the PDGA to reap the benefits of a ratings or age protected division.

.... Maybe there should be a requirement for the TD to have ratings and memberships officer to assist at an event.




Would you be willing to volunteer to help TD's in your area implement your solution? As part of your duties you can help upload pre-registrations to PDGA and double check non-members' performance in other PDGA events if necessary. This could be an awesome solution to the problem in Nor-Cal and the PDGA would not have to force this on TD's in other areas of the country.

Yes... But I do not attend every sanctioned evnt in my area. But I think I could contact my state coordinator with the idea of having a officer for each of our series events where point are earned. In nor-cal one of the big issues is non-rated non members effectively stealing points when they are sand-bagging. We have our first event this weekend, so I will try...

senior, why not simply provide ratings and a pdga number for all participants?

the ratings are one of the more scalable things we do. make the "temp fee" an "event membership" with a permanent pdga number and ratings for those rounds. we have lots of "inactive" members already, so we know the database can handle it - and we already have the capability to suppress the public display of ratings on an individual basis, so these folks wont be receiving that value from the ratings. the TD and Member-players will be covered, and the PDGA will have a great group of people to market its yearly memberships to.

The problem is that non-members don't have a vested interest in remembering what their pdga number would be. What prevents them from signing up again as a first time player again? Seems like you could get no benefit from the system and add a bunch of useless data to the database.

Yes... But I do not attend every sanctioned evnt in my area. But I think I could contact my state coordinator with the idea of having a officer for each of our series events where point are earned. In nor-cal one of the big issues is non-rated non members effectively stealing points when they are sand-bagging. We have our first event this weekend, so I will try...



Senior...Your NOT getting the point OR seeing the whole scope of the issue....

NorCal is unique in a way because the "Area" covered is larger than "Multiple" state regions in the East......

Because of the vast area covered there are the "locals" who ONLY play the event at home and never travel......

The worst for this is OV & Santa Cruz...BUT that isnt much of an issue since those events are A TIER and membership IS required.........
Its easily solved by the TD of each event because he/she "SHOULD" know the locals AND at what skill level they should be placed in. They ALWAYS have the option of placing a player where the TD sees fit.......... :D

I would BET that I know "WHO" you are speaking of because he wins Adv Masters just about EVERY time he shows up......
/msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
BUT he has NEVER cashed and is old enough to play Masters...
Even if he was a member you would NOT be able to move him out......... :p

.... Maybe there should be a requirement for the TD to have ratings and memberships officer to assist at an event.




Would you be willing to volunteer to help TD's in your area implement your solution? As part of your duties you can help upload pre-registrations to PDGA and double check non-members' performance in other PDGA events if necessary. This could be an awesome solution to the problem in Nor-Cal and the PDGA would not have to force this on TD's in other areas of the country.



As an answer to this........

The PDGA sends an UPDATED list, with ALL MEMBERS and ratings, to the TD of each event right before it happens.

Its not that hard to check and see who is playing where.....

IF TD's would mandate Pre-Reg more often...this would be even easier to deal with because there are no last minute entries that could allow non-member "baggers" to slip by.. ;) BUT this would only work in certain areas.... :D

we'd have his name, so unless he uses a fake identity, we'll know who he is. the td's have access to a list of all members in their region, and the name and rating would show up there.

this solves one problem (bagging by non-members), supports activity in another (building membership), uses existing systems as is, and has very little if any incremental cost to implement and operate.

Mike I see what you mean. But even though the TD has the power to bump someone, not every TD takes the time to interview every player. An example of how it works both ways can be given from a couple of events I did attend. Mike Travers simply bumped a guy who registered Rec after he shot his 1st round well enough to play AM2. Done.

At the safari however, a non-member, non-rated guy won in AM2 and who had played in Am2 for the past 4 years at this event and cashed before and placed 5th last year out of 67 players and could be clearly shown to be a consistient 930+ rated golfer and he had home course advantage! The TD was even aware of it being his 5th event and still allowed him to compete in Am2 and what do you know, he finally won. Hhe might not be in AM2 next year but he was clearly in the wrong division and nothing was done about it and the TD could have bumped him easliy and should have. It just goes to show that the ratings guidelines are just that... Guidelines not rules. As for age protected divisions, there is no bump rule and thats that..

As for who gets bumped, I am not referring to a recrerational caliber player. If you have never played an event and don't compete in a local legue and are a low rated player, I agree there should be exceptions. But if you are non-rated non-member that plays disc golf regularly and at weekly's/mini's etc.. and have been playing for several years you are fair game for the open divisions. If you want to lie and bag the lowest division you will be subject to whatever the TD thinks is fair. But as for the other protected divisions if are non-rated and not a member and are a regular golfer you should have to play in an open division. I don't think we should turn away first time tournament golfers, just limit where they can play. For example, you either can play rec or advanced. If the player says, hey I am too good for rec, then their option is to play up or join the PDGA to reap the benefits of a ratings or age protected division.



Therein lies the difficulty in crafting a rule to solve this problem---it's affect on the people you don't want to affect, such as beginners.

Best solution, where players are known locally, is for TDs to use their latitude to control non-member sandbaggers. Ratings for non-members would be helpful if the logistics can be worked out (variations on names, duplicate names, etc.). This would free us to work on the other aspects of non-PDGA members (the $5 fee, or whether they should be in PDGA events, at all).

Is there any room between the current $5 non-member fee, and requiring a full membership---such as a $20, temporary membership that would allow the beginner to play 5 sanctioned events? We could assign a number, track his rating, get away from the $5 fees, and after 5 events, either the player has decided he's going to continue with PDGA, or not. I'm assuming membership required in all sanctioned events. I'm thinking as I type, so haven't thought about whether there's anything here, or just a dead-end thought.

Mike I see what you mean. But even though the TD has the power to bump someone, not every TD takes the time to interview every player. An example of how it works both ways can be given from a couple of events I did attend. Mike Travers simply bumped a guy who registered Rec after he shot his 1st round well enough to play AM2. Done.

At the safari however, a non-member, non-rated guy won in AM2 and who had played in Am2 for the past 4 years at this event and cashed before and placed 5th last year out of 67 players and could be clearly shown to be a consistient 930+ rated golfer and he had home course advantage! The TD was even aware of it being his 5th event and still allowed him to compete in Am2 and what do you know, he finally won. Hhe might not be in AM2 next year but he was clearly in the wrong division and nothing was done about it and the TD could have bumped him easliy and should have. It just goes to show that the ratings guidelines are just that... Guidelines not rules. As for age protected divisions, there is no bump rule and thats that..



In the case you mention...the issue is either a TD who
1. doesnt care OR
2. Wants to keep his locals happy OR
3. Is more worried about the success of his event rather than fair comp OR
......A combination of the above......

We used to have bump rules......suprise.....they worked REALLY well....it didnt matter if you were PDGA reg'd or not.
We tracked SERIES results and acted upon those......but then followed the ratings and the PDGA disallowed them.

Your stats guy COULD still track and deal with nonmembers since they have NO protection from Bump Rules.. :D