i am guessing spectra, venom, and destroyer are all about the same. maybe illusion. anyone know for sure?

Flazer.

devilhawk

Epic

epic. destroyer of the ones you listed

10M brick.

spectra is the same as destroyer

your mom

^-----2 finger or power grip?

Flazer.



I agree, this old disc is very close to the new discs out today, if not larger.

The Illusion and Blurr wing have widest wing by Gateway followed closely by the Speed Demon-DT, Spirit and Rage which are all wider than any other disc that is pdga approved besides the epic!

I have not seen a destroyer but if its the same as a spectra than the above statement is true!

If the wings of the discs get much bigger it will be awfully hard to get high end TPU's to weigh under 175 grams because the volume of the mold will be to high.

If the cubic CM of a disc is 160 and the plastic weighs 1.1 the discs will weigh around 176 grams! There are blowing agents and specialty blends that help reduce weight but most effect the quality of the polymer and make it less durable!

( an illusion with its massively thick and long wing is 165 cubic cm which is why we have a hard time getting the weights under 177) The blurr has 12 cubic cm taken off the disc on the top and is around 153 cubic cm!
Its way easier to jam more plastic in a disc to get it to weigh more than back off and have it weigh less. You come up with short shots with parts not fully packed out! ( X-OUTS)

In order to have longer wings the wing would have to have a lot of concave ( not flat or convex) on them causing them to be really overstable or the nose would have to be sharp or flight plate really thin to keep the volume under 160 cubic cm at 21 cm in diameter!
Lower end plastics weigh around .91-93 specific gravity with out filler which will allow for wings to be be up to 2" or more and would allow for an over all volume of close to 190 cubic cm, staying under the 200 gram limit!
So the wings of discs CAN get larger but most likely high end plastic would not be able to be used.

If anyone has any information on a high end polymer that can be used for golf discs that weighs less than 1.1 specific gravity, I will gladly pay for the information. :D

Post deleted by abcd

sorry, was just trying to be funny in response to your sarcastic post. i was trying to get serious info. I obviously had no idea. some folks think this type of humor is okay and some do not. my bad

are technical specs available online somewhere for this measurement? thanks

OK Dave ... you win the big disc "geek" award of the week. :)

I have no freak'n idea what you're talking about, but it sounded good. I "think" I'm learning something every time you post something about disc manufacturing.

specific gravity = density (with water being the standard at 1.0 grams/cc). In order to make discs with wider wings you (usually) have to increase the volume of the mold. Thus, in order to keep the weight within pdga specs you have to find a plastic that has less mass per volume (lower density)so you can fill the bigger mold with the same weight of plastic! =) Dave is just saying that it's hard to make a low density plastic that is also very durable.

Specific gravity can also be used to show why some discs float. Plastic like that used for DX Hydras has an SG less than 1 and they float. Most premium plastic is more dense and has an SG greater than 1 so that's why most discs sink in water.

Excellent explanation! Thanks!

These guys pay attention in their Chemistry classes :D
good info :cool:

Why cant you scale it down under the 160 cubic centimeters so you can get the right weight (@175 g)? Do smaller diameter discs just not perform well at high speeds?

The Destroyer has a really thin flight plate due to most of the meat being in the rim.

If by scale it down you mean keep the same shape but just decrease the diameter, the problem there is that 175 grams is the max legal weight for that diameter 21.2cm or whatever it is. If you make the disc smaller overall then you lower the maximum weight the pdga will allow.

Maybe the other option is to make the wing really thin while widening it. I am guessing that this kind of disc (like the flick) is very overstable and loses a lot of its glide properties. It might also become more difficult to grip. Just my guess tho

There were a few discs that were made many years ago that could never be PDGA approved (one being the Bullet) that preformed really well. I believe it was 19.9 cm and 175g. It looks as though it was ment to be a putter but i could throw it farther than my comets and you know how far I can throw comets Drew.

hmm, yeah it would be interesting to try a smaller diameter putter. At 19.something cm and closer to 170 grams it might have fewer bounce outs. now that i think about it, it might have more cut throughs though

It was great for loft putting...too bad i don't loft putt

I think the 21cm rule was made because of the shape of the basket ( the basket below the chains).
At the time a 21cm disc wouldn't fall through the bottom of the basket.

my measurements show spectra same as illusion and the destoyer being wider than all the rest. this is only width, i have no idea about mass.

Well maybe there could be a change in the rules now that the sport is starting to progress to allow some new and inventive ideas to surface

In order to have longer wings the wing would have to have a lot of concave ( not flat or convex) on them causing them to be really overstable or the nose would have to be sharp or flight plate really thin to keep the volume under 160 cubic cm at 21 cm in diameter!




Dave D. made a similar post, but less scientific (not to still your thunder), stating that he can extend the rim over and over while that would only benefit the big arms due to the stability the disc would hold. I would like to point out though that a disc like that would benefit everyone as a tomahawk/specialty shot disc.

you don't say. try a spirit.

The first golf disc was the Puppy. It was and still is 21cm.
Yes the Midnight Flyers were made for golf, but they were beefed up Frisbees.

This weekend I got to see a destroyer(It looked like a road runner top with a predators' wing!) and measured the linear wing length and yes the wing is longer than the Gateway High Speed Drivers. With the sharp nose and slight concave on the wing it has less mass then the Blurr or Illusion and appeared to be less gyroscopic and had less resistance to turn. I think its the rounded nose above the wing ( it rises pretty abruptly) that is letting it flip and was not as HS-overstable as they look. Players were flipping them up and even over into the wind while they flew pretty overstable down wind.

It didn't seem to fly like a ballistic missile ( as long wing drivers are described) and had a fairly nice glide. I thought it was a controllable long wing driver and expect to see many more like it from Innova soon!

Long live the long wing drivers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alot of the players here in BG are loving the Destroyer more for big controlled distance and not just flat out distance. Most get their Wraiths and TeeRex's further, but when they want their disc to S out, and reach a certain point most of them here go for their Destroyer. It's definitely not as stable as I thought the disc would be, and it is fun to throw in an open field but I can do more of the same with my Spirit, and still get more distance out of it.

I just think the whole "It's a Speed 12" defense about the disc is pretty pointless. As stated above most are throwing TeeRex's and Wraith's further, but they have that Nigel Tuffnell mindset like in Spinal Tap where he is discussing about the amps going to 11.

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

Just make it about Speed 11 discs and Speed 12 and you'll understand.

jd,
you were in nashville, right?
I saw you had the lead did you windup winning?


You should have said Hi!

Yep, I was in the lead, but had a bad second round. I technically received 6th place, but added my score wrong by 1 stroke, thus receiving a 2 stroke penalty pushing me back to 13th. But I'm not mad. I made a slight mistake, should have double checked my score on my calculator, but didnt. Oh well, I learned a lesson about. At least I still cashed in the tournament even if I won Discraft products, and so long as I cash I feel it was a successful tournament. I'm more glad that I got to play a great course. Not the temp, but the original course. Definitely something I would like to see here in BG if we can utilize the new park land for our new course.

I would have said hi, but there were so many people around you didnt think we'd be able to have a good conversation. Did get to meet Nikko though and talk to him before the 2nd round, during the Ring of Fire, and putting contest. He's a really awesome dude, and really easy to get along with. Most pro's I have met wont say much of anything to you, but we just chatted like it was nothing. He is definitely someone I would like to actually play a round with. He even showed me his horse shoe putt, and when I came home I actually tried practicing with it.

Once again the Spirit outdrove the Destroyer, but not from me but from my friend. He threw his Destroyer on a 405 ft hole with a flex shot into a crosswind and it turned into a roller only reaching about 330ft.. I told him to throw my Spirit, Diablo DT's and RI DT's using the same shot and went past the 405ft. basket each time without rolling. Yet I still couldnt get him to convert! His excuse being the discs hes using made him into a better player yet he constantly outdrives himself with all my Gateway/Quest discs. Do not believe the Speed 12 hype. The Destroyer is fun, but it still pales in comparison to Spirits and Diablo DT's. What can I do to make him see the light Dave?

I don't like how a company's (Innova, Quest, Discraft, Gateway, Latitude 64, Discwing, etc etc...) employees and supporters can contribute posts that carry a spontaneous and objective tone, but whose intent is intentional and premeditated.

I understand this is (should be) a forum for free speech, and your association, or preference towards, any one company don't make your opinions invalid. Keeping this in mind, there are many posts which, to the casual reader, would read as though an unaffiliated player had written it instead of someone with close ties to a company whose goal is to make money (which isn't a bad thing, in and of itself).

But I feel as though a clear, definite distinction should be made between opinions that are for the sake of free speech, and those looking to sell a product.

By not making this distinction, we risk losing our freedoms to for-profit organizations whose rule-making privileges are no longer under our control.

-Brandon

Brandon - If you read the post by Dave of Gateway, he was fully in support and liked how the Destroyer flew.

Dave, yes. Son of the dude, not so much

in my experience, my dx wraiths consistantly outdrove my diablos with a straighter, more consistant flight. as for the spirit, it is a fast disc, but the overstability kicks in very early in the flight, making it not near as long as my destroyers. i am comparing all new discs and i consistantly can hit 420. longest throws close to 500.
I will say props to Dave M for being the 1st to try the ultra wide wing drivers. he started the revolution!

My bad?? It wasnt my intention to make it sound like I'm a covert Gateway employee. I do like the Destroyer as well, and I have admitted that it's a fun disc. I was more referring to how my friend who is a better player than me has seen how much better he is with my products than his own but wont change. What I meant to say was that I didnt want him simply throwing a driver he cant find a purpose for simply because of its speed rating. I am a firm believer in whatever works for a player then he should use it, but I apologize if I had come off as someone who had malicious intent set against the other companies. That is not my thing, and once again I apologize for it. I will try my best to be better with my words. I hope this doesnt affect anyones perceptions of who I am, and hopefully we can just go on to chatting without this turning ugly.

I throw crushes 30-40 farther than wraiths or teerexs. Its all about different strokes for different folks. :D

it's all good :D

Brandon,
Jd is a 16 year old kid that is just getting into disc golf. He sees something that is confusing him, so he asks what I thought was a very valid question, as I have seen it all too many times myself.
Why would someone not throw a disc that is obviously working better for him? Is it because of the name on the disc?


A guy will throw one of his discs on a longer than a mid range type of hole and it will fall off left before getting to the basket. I will hand him a sabre and he will pure a line drive rope that lands right under the basket.
I'll hand him another and the result is the same.
He will say "wow that disc is straight", so I say you can have them and he says " no thats Ok I'll stick with what I have". Which is 30 feet left of the hole! :confused: :confused:

Actually I'm 20, but am just starting to get competitive this year. I placed 5th today out of a field of 40-45 Ams. with a huge nine down comeback going in with a 1 up. People kept asking me what I'm throwing and I say Gateway, and they were like "How is that possible?" And I try to let to use my discs but they feel that if someone touches a Gateway disc it'll turn them into a leper.

Everything I said in my last post is valid.

That said, I can state as an unaffiliated, unsponsored run-of-the-mill competitive player, I use a Destroyer (yes, only 2 weeks into getting it. Sorry Wraith.), Beast, Comet, and a Wizard more than any other discs in my bag.

I have nothing against any one company. My problem stands with everything I stated in my previous post. I don't have to say it again, because it's already there.

-Brandon

Everything I said in my last post is valid.

That said, I can state as an unaffiliated, unsponsored run-of-the-mill competitive player, I use a Destroyer (yes, only 2 weeks into getting it. Sorry Wraith.), Beast, Comet, and a Wizard more than any other discs in my bag.

I have nothing against any one company. My problem stands with everything I stated in my previous post. I don't have to say it again, because it's already there.

-Brandon



Every human is motivated by self interests and that you can count on. Everyone is biased and everyone is constantly trying to influence one another. To suggest that human communication can exist void of self interests is idealistic and unrealistic. Just because some people's biases are more obvious than others does not make them more dubious. You are "selling" a point of view just as others may want to "sell" discs or whatever else. The responsibility to decide what posts are useful and which are not is up to each individual that reads this stuff.