I recently played a cool course (Wilco) that has some par 4s and a par 5 and I really enjoyed the extra challenge. These weren't your standard par 4s that are just 800 feet. These holes had tight tunnels and ceilings with 90 degree or greater dog legs. You can't simply bomb it 500 feet, then go with an upshot and then a put for par. You have to think your way through the course, placing shots with distance and position accuracy.

It got me to thinking, how many courses out there are par 72? Or event par 60?

What are the top courses you've played that are not just your standard par 54 course?

Disc Creek Disc Golf Course in Amarillo, TX. Par 57 from the White Tees, Par 59 from the Blue Tees. With the consistent winds we get here, the Par 4's going into the headwinds are quite difficult, with just enough tree cover to mess up a bad throw.

Fly 18 specialized in par 4s and 5s. ;)

Top courses that are not just your standard par 54 course and feature pro par fours and pro par five holes:

Highbridge Hills Sports Complex, Mellen, WI
Idlewild, Burlington, KY
The Woodshed, Paw Paw, WV
Warwick Town Park, Warwick, NY
Winthrop University, Rock Hill, SC
Moraine State Park, Portersville, PA
Nockamixon State Park, Quakertown, PA
Borderland State Park, Easton, MA
Circle R Ranch, Wimberely/Blanco, TX
Maple Hill, Leicester, MA
Campgaw Reservation, Mahwah, NJ
Deer Lakes Park, Pittsburgh, PA
Little Lehigh Parkway, Allentown, PA
Patapsco Valley State Park, Marriottsville, MD
Sea Tac Park, Sea Tac, WA
Renaissance Park, Charlotte, NC
Kensington Toboggan, Milford, MI
International Disc Golf Center, Augusta, GA
North Calais DGC, North Calais, VT
Pymatuning State Park, Jamestown, PA

in virginia:
hawk hollow spotsylvania par 63
loriella park long spotsylvania par 65
new quarter long yorktown par ?
timber ridge bedford par 61?

in virginia:
hawk hollow spotsylvania par 63
loriella park long spotsylvania par 65
new quarter long yorktown par ?
timber ridge bedford par 61?



I just played New Quarter. I think it is a par 61. I know I shot 6 down on the back nine from the back tees. I was on fire with my drives, just tap ins for birdies.

The (late) Still Waters Farm, Govan, SC, where a 70 was a 1000-rated round. Lots of OB, lots of risk/reward decisions and fairway management.

Jackson course at IDGC.

That course is gone? Man, that sucks. But when we were down there last memorial day weekend, Johnny (I think that was the course owner's name) said he was having trouble keeping it playable since Shade Hogg had moved away.

BLUE VALLEY....huge course in KC. Plays close to par 70, if not par 71. A few holes could use a little tweaking, but it plays just like a championship ball golf. the elevation changes are UNREAL for a park land course. plays to over 11,000 ft!

Milo McIver State Park in oregon- 2 par 60 courses for the Beaver State Fling. Some of the best par 4's in the game. Very fair fairways and greens. The park itself is soo beautiful and it has become my favorite place to play. This place DESERVES a major.

The WEB layout at Hornets Nest is also insane. I didnt play all the holes, but the back 9 has some unbelievable par 4's and 5's. Placement, placement, placement...

I also love the old Golden State Classic layout. Its not as good anymore, but there still are some GREAT par 4 holes.

[quoteThe WEB layout at Hornets Nest is also insane. I didnt play all the holes, but the back 9 has some unbelievable par 4's and 5's. Placement, placement, placement...

you should play the WEB layout when we are able to get it finished, a little behind to due park construction, but it will be a true par 70 with absolutely beautiful holes. and if it is windy let me tell you it has some nasty teeth. in my opinion one of Stan's best designs
mj

Castle Hayne (Payne) Park Wilmington, N.C. Par 64 Longest hole is 700'. thight wooded course. 1- 54 has been recorded in tournament play by the record holder Mike Hofmann. Best before that was 55 by a handful of the sports top players people like Brain Schweberger, Bard Soleng, Justin Jernigan, Chris Lee to name a few.

The U.S. Masters layout at La Mirada.

I had the chance to hang out at Maple Hill in Leicester, MA this past weekend and once again I was reminded just how great this course is. It resides on the property of Tom Southwick, just down the street from his cousin Jason Southwick, the wizard who creates the magic that is the annual MSDGC tournament in late August and who runs the great Pyramids disc golf course and pro shop. While Maple Hill has been in existence for a shorter time, it has the advantage of being designed with recent disc technology improvements in mind, as well as an increased amount of land to work with. And what a piece of property that is! There's not many courses in the world that I would qualify as stunningly beautiful, but Maple Hill is certainly one of them. The combination of forest, Christmas trees, water hazards, huge elevation changes, animal life (I saw a beaver swimming, how often does one see that on a disc golf course?) and the idyllic setting made for a course that takes my breath away on every tee pad.

The course plays on a mixture of open terrain where the fir trees grow, through deciduous tree forest with some very significant elevation changes and fast greens, and very close to the many water hazards on the property. There are several ponds (some small, as on hole#1) and some very large ones that line the entire length of some holes and require carrying on other holes. The balance of play is excellent, with what seems like an equal number of longer open holes for the big-armed thrower and tight woods shots to favor for the accurate disc golfer. The wooden decks and rubber tee pads and amenities at this course are some of the best in the world; the new deck on the long tee of hole#18 is big enough and nice enough to have around your house or your pool! Similar to Warwick, Borderland, and Pyramids, the course features two tee pads and two polehole positions on most every hole, although the course was not designed for completely interchangeable play. The easier layout, from short tees to short pin positions, is known as the Elements layout and features symbols from the periodic table of elements; the longer layout is known as Airplanes and is a world class caliber challenge to rival the best courses in New England. There are as many pro par four holes on this layout as par threes, and a round of 60 or below is likely exceeding 1000+ rated golf. The new 730' pro par 5 twelfth hope is simply a masterpiece! The tee shot travels straight through a wide fairway in heavy hardwood forest for a distance of about 330 feet to the landing zone, at which point the fairway doglegs right. From there it's then about 250 feet to clear the woods, where it opens up. However, the basket is perched uphill another 150 feet or so amongst a tall group of Christmas trees. The drive is critical, as any error will result in a pitch-out shot to the dogleg. From there, throwing a shot that makes it out of the remainder of the wooded fairway and all the way up to the polehole is challenging. The christmas trees around the polehole are the tallest of any found on the property, and definitely come into play. (You can easily throw over them on holes 1,11, and 13.) Conservative fairway shots will probably net the birdie four for most competitors on hole#12, but aggressiveness may result in some bogeys or worse.

I will say that while Maple Hill is one of the best courses I've ever played, Borderland and Warwick still give me the impression as slightly better golf courses because of their interchangeability. There are simply tee & pin placements at Maple Hill that wouldn't work at all; it would be next to impossible to play from the short tee to the long pin, or the long tee to the short pin on many holes. Again, it is understood that the Maple Hill course was not designed with such interchangeability in mind. Nit-picking aside, there is no question however that for pure aesthetics, there's very few courses in the world that rival Maple Hill. There are many holes that could be signature holes at practically any other course, and when you're down by the water on holes 5,8,9 or 14 it's possibly one of the most picturesque spots on any disc golf course on the planet. How fortunate we are to be able to enjoy such a jaw-droppingly beautiful piece of land, and have the opportunity to chuck plastic across it! :cool:

Token Creek, Vallarta-Ast Disc Golf Course, Madison, WI

Twin Oaks Open- temp. course. Duncan Oklahoma!
You can only play it once a year !

wimberly

old san saba

Temple lions park

ROUND ROCK of course :p

WYCO in KC also has a couple of legitimate par 4s--13, 14, 17, 7 all long positions. Swope Gold in KC I'd think would have at least 2 par 4s, but it's not often set as Gold.

These are roughly in order

Renny Gold
Hornet's
Hawk Hollow
Winthrop Gold (sans string)
Woodshed
Whipping Post
Timber Ridge
Elk Creek

Haven't played the new Loriella yet or New Quarter. Never played the Payne or some of those other East NC courses or the Hornet's Web setup.

Best Par 4/5s individuals holes (IMHO)

Winthrop Gold 5
Wellspring 17long
Renny Gold 2
Hawk Hollow 15
Timber Ridge 12
Woodshed 13
Whipping Post 4
Hornet's (the dogleg right hole on the back 9)
Elk Creek 16

I guess those are kind of a no-brainer list

Honerable metion:
Renny Gold 1, 18?
Winthrop Gold 2, 8, 18
Hawk Hollow 10
Timber Ridge 1, 17
Hornet's (the dogleg left on the back nine)
Woodshed 1 long (levee)

Hawk Hollow 10 = the best par 4 I've ever played

Best Par 4/5s individuals holes (IMHO)

Woodshed 13




Whorley, that's a great list you provided and I agreed with all of them. (of the ones I have played)

Woodshed #13 is one exception, imo. While it's a scenic hole and exceedingly fun to play (I love when I am able to chuck one and have it carry over the valley to the far hill) I'm not too big on it from a design standpoint. Specifically, I don't like that big arms can throw over the trees and deuce the hole. Jim Myers is one person I know of who has done so in the past and there's surely been others. While eagle 2s are rare and the scoring average is likely still above 3.5 on this hole, I'm not a big fan of pro par four holes that allow such "cheater" routes and give people the opportunity to defeat the design of a hole. I much prefer pro par fours in the woods and with doglegs that force everyone to play the same fairway route. From a design standpoint, I think holes like Woodshed #3, Woodshed #6, Woodshed#15, Whipping Post #2, etc. are much better holes at Paw Paw.

My $.02
-Jeff

I would agree with Jeff on WS13 but only for gold level. I think it's a pretty good blue level hole with great aesthetics. I personally liked WS9 in the long position as a big open crush there more than 13 even though it crosses a fairway. WS1 long definitely cool without crossing fairways and WS2 is the only hole I remember there that has part of fairway in woods and part outside woods which could have been used more there.

Idlewild in Burlington KY is a great par 72 course from the long tees to long pin placements. Its long and wooded and placement is key to a good score there. Thats why I struggle at it so much when I play there

Best Par 4/5s individuals holes (IMHO)

Woodshed 13




Whorley, that's a great list you provided and I agreed with all of them. (of the ones I have played)

Woodshed #13 is one exception, imo. While it's a scenic hole and exceedingly fun to play (I love when I am able to chuck one and have it carry over the valley to the far hill) I'm not too big on it from a design standpoint. Specifically, I don't like that big arms can throw over the trees and deuce the hole. Jim Myers is one person I know of who has done so in the past and there's surely been others. While eagle 2s are rare and the scoring average is likely still above 3.5 on this hole, I'm not a big fan of pro par four holes that allow such "cheater" routes and give people the opportunity to defeat the design of a hole. I much prefer pro par fours in the woods and with doglegs that force everyone to play the same fairway route. From a design standpoint, I think holes like Woodshed #3, Woodshed #6, Woodshed#15, Whipping Post #2, etc. are much better holes at Paw Paw.

My $.02
-Jeff


I haven't played the hole, but what is wrong with having a hole where someone with a big gun can go over everything. Isn't that how a long hole is supposed to work. Risk, go long and you might geta 2, of course you might end up in the shaz. Play up to a shorter, easier area and get your 3 or 4.

I would agree except there's not enough risk for the reward on this hole. No schule, no OB and not even much chance of ending up with no upshot.

try to go over and come up short and you will generally have a very difficult upshot unless you get penetration into the woodline.

It's not enough of a deterrent to those who have the arm.

Circle C
Wilco
Twin Parks CC
Circle R
Temple-Lions
Red Rock
Tyler
Snow Farm

Just played Token Creek for the first time yesterday on recommendation of Mike at Glide outside Madison, WI. Two tees and three pin placement options at every hole. First time out, think about playing the closer tees. The blind shots are sometimes confusing if your first time playing the course is alone. Well worth the daily $5 fee to Dane County Parks.

in virginia:
hawk hollow spotsylvania par 63
loriella park long spotsylvania par 65
new quarter long yorktown par ?
timber ridge bedford par 61?



Add one more to this list, Sontag Disc Golf Course, just south of Rocky Mount, VA.

The Sontag course has 6 par 4's and 4 par 5's, par on the scorecard is 65. These play thru the woods and place a premium on accuracy versus distance. Check us out sometime!

Add one more to this list: the brand new world class course at Iron Hill Park, just south of Newark, DE.

By my count the course has four blue level (950-rated) pro par 4s and one pro par 5 on the front nine totaling 33, and six pro par 4s and one pro par 5 on the back nine totaling 35 to make for par 68! The first four holes are fairly open, but the rest of the course plays through thick woods and place a premium on accuracy versus distance.

A little light on par 3s then for good balance unless there are short pins so at least six can be set as twoable par 3s? Sounds like a great addition for that area where players appreciate par 4s and 5s.

Chuck, there are indeed many short pins planned. They have just about everything long to start with. Here's some distances they measured:

<table border="1"><tr><td> hole </th><th> long to short </th><th> pro par </th><th> long to long </th><th> pro par </td></tr>
<tr><td> 1 </th><th> 487 </th><th> 4 </th><th> 609 </th><th> 4 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 2 </th><th> 223 </th><th> 3 </th><th> 282 </th><th> 3 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 3 </th><th> 498 </th><th> 4 </th><th> 652 </th><th> 4 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 4 </th><th> 365 </th><th> 3 </th><th> 505 </th><th> 3 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 5 </th><th> 534 </th><th> 4 </th><th> 694 </th><th> 5 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 6 </th><th> 499 </th><th> 4 </th><th> 545 </th><th> 4 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 7 </th><th> 297 </th><th> 3 </th><th> 376 </th><th> 3 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 8 </th><th> 294 </th><th> 3 </th><th> 404 </th><th> 4 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 9 </th><th> 320 </th><th> 3 </th><th> 369 </th><th> 3 </td></tr>
<tr><td> out </th><th> 3517 </th><th> 31 </th><th> 4436 </th><th> 33 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 10 </th><th> 395 </th><th> 4 </th><th> 486 </th><th> 4 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 11 </th><th> 352 </th><th> 3 </th><th> 506 </th><th> 4 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 12 </th><th> 532 </th><th> 4 </th><th> 605 </th><th> 4 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 13 </th><th> 364 </th><th> 3 </th><th> 456 </th><th> 4 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 14 </th><th> 369 </th><th> 3 </th><th> 436 </th><th> 3 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 15 </th><th> 311 </th><th> 3 </th><th> 387 </th><th> 4 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 16 </th><th> 386 </th><th> 3 </th><th> 522 </th><th> 4 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 17 </th><th> 525 </th><th> 4 </th><th> 888 </th><th> 5 </td></tr>
<tr><td> 18 </th><th> 365 </th><th> 3 </th><th> 475 </th><th> 3 </td></tr>
<tr><td> in </th><th> 3599 </th><th> 30 </th><th> 4761 </th><th> 35 </td></tr>
<tr><td> total </th><th> 7116 </th><th> 61 </th><th> 9197 </th><th> 68 </td></tr>
</table>

Please note that hole#5, 8, & 17 have probably 25-35 feet of elevation gain. Hole#4 and #7 probably lose about 15-20 feet. Hole#12 has a 90 degree dogleg left. Until it opens up, hole#17 is playing almost like a pro par 6; no golfer has scored a four on it yet.

Hope I can get out there to check it out along with a few others in PA on the way.

Add one more to this list: the brand new world class course at Iron Hill Park, just south of Newark, DE.



I heard really good things about this course from several of the mid-Atlantic players in attendance at the recent Pittsburgh event. One guy told me the course was designed/installed around the pro-course layout with plans to eventually install shorter amatuer/recreational tees. That's great because I dislike courses which require a lot of backtracking or extra walking to the long tees because the course was designed around the short tees. I can't wait to see Iron Hill after two or three years of usage and development.