Here is the rule:
"802.02 Mini Marker Discs
A. Mini marker discs shall be used to mark a player�s lie as required by these rules. Mini marker discs must have a diameter of between 7 and 15 centimeters and a height not exceeding 3 centimeters."

What is the rationale for limiting the height of the mini to 3cm? I would like to use a small cone. (Excepting the rule that stipulates it should not be taller than 3cm) can anyone provide a good reason why such a marker should be disallowed?

An audio compact disc meets the criteria defined in the rule. Would anyone find it objectionable to use one as a mini marker? Is it in violation of the spirit of the rule?

Why does the PDGA specifically not allow other types of mini markers except circular (disc) shaped ones? I like the idea of using a flag to mark my lie. What is so fundamentally wrong with using other items to mark your lie that there a ruling to expressedly prohibit it?

Here are a few examples of markers for your lie that I would find reasonable: string, a flag, a bottle, a square or triangle or any other non-circular object, a disc golf bag, the rulebook, a reasonably sized rock, a shuriken, a branch, a plastic skull, a toy, and so forth.

Several reasons

Drum roll please

- Someone had already found a use for bowling pins
- To many old timers were wanting to just use their canes and I mean if the height can be increased, why not the radius
- Someone tried toilet tissue rolls, but it kept getting wet

and finally........

- So you cannnot use a beer can

In all honesty, I believe the reason was so that it would approximate a disc or a mini "disc". At greater than 3 cm tall, it would just about be taller than the radius and if you adjusted the radius to match the size increase you would be back to a regular size or larger disc.

Here are a few examples of markers for your lie that I would find reasonable: string, a flag, a bottle, a square or triangle or any other non-circular object, a disc golf bag, the rulebook, a reasonably sized rock, a shuriken, a branch, a plastic skull, a toy, and so forth.



I see your point to some extent, but there are certainly reasons why not to use some other objects. First of all we need to examine exactly what defines a lie. I believe the lie is an perpendicular intersection between a line coming straight off the pole to you, and the perpendicular line going to your left and to your right (the line you must stay behind to avoid a foot fault). You place your marker at this "T" so that the back edge of your mark designates the right to left line you must stay behind.. Because it is a geometrically perfect circle it helps you to correctly visualize this line.

So now, what shapes will work? I think any geometrically symmetrical shape would do, as long as it has enough mass to hold its place. This rules out the string and other randomly shaped toys. The marker also must be large enough so that you can watch someone's feet when they throw, in real time, and make a ruling as to whether or not the thrower was directly behind it. This rules out the flag. Why only 3 cm tall? So you don't knock it over on your follow through...obviously it needs to be something that lies flat and stays. This rules out the DG bag...BTW, in the last tourney I played someone on my card left his bag directly in front of his lie and he fell over it on his follow through. I hope this helps.

- So you cannnot use a beer can





Ding Ding Ding.

We have a winner!

I would think it would also be distracting to other players putting from behind a marker that was to tall.

I would think it would also be distracting to other players putting from behind a marker that was to tall.



Also, if you fall over, you could put your eye out. That's also why they don't allow Red Rider BB Guns to be used as markers.

However, if you're in the middle of a round and play is stopped due to inclement weather, you can use just about anything natural to mark your lie, like a pile of dookie or a dead opossum.

Several weeks back I played in the McCellan Classic and noticed a small turtle, within the radius quidelines of a mini. I asked the group if I could use it for a mini and one of the players stated that since it was moving, I would have to putt quickly. I had just planned on marking quickly, pointing it at the basket and wait for my turn... ;)



Also, if you fall over, you could put your eye out. That's also why they don't allow Red Rider BB Guns to be used as markers.

However, if you're in the middle of a round and play is stopped due to inclement weather, you can use just about anything natural to mark your lie, like a pile of dookie or a dead opossum.

Several weeks back I played in the McCellan Classic and noticed a small turtle, within the radius quidelines of a mini. I asked the group if I could use it for a mini and one of the players stated that since it was moving, I would have to putt quickly. I had just planned on marking quickly, pointing it at the basket and wait for my turn... ;)


I think you found a loop-hole. It's not a marking infraction unless you move/touch the marker after it's placed, and there is nothing in rule that states a mini marker can not be a living thing. :D

Just remember, if the li'l turtle turns and walks away from the basket before it's your turn, you can't touch it. :eek:

Kind of changes Line of Play (LOP) to Slow Line of Walk (SLOW)

You must have a point of contact on the SLOW and within 30cm at the time of release.

Just flip the turtle upside down.

Just flip the turtle upside down.


Well, that eliminates the risk. But it also kills the reward. :D

...noticed a small turtle, within the radius quidelines of a mini....



proof that objects that are not perfectly circular can have a radius?

or one more attempt to corrupt the spirit of the game by tarnishing the definition of round?

one more attempt to corrupt the spirit of the game by tarnishing the definition of round?



As a noun or an adjective? Perhaps both? :D

I'd think things like cones would easily be knocked away by errant putts (from other players). Keeping a low profile would make the marker less visually intrusive and also keep the probability of being smacked away at a minimum.

I heard back from Dunipace on this topic and he doesn't remember why specs for markers were made. The original ones were about 4" diameter and the Innova minis at the time were modeled after those. We're waiting to hear from Stork to see if he knows anything about the height limit and why.

- So you cannnot use a beer can






Ding Ding Ding.

We have a winner!

A beer can is perfectly legal for a mini . . . as long as you crush it first /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

...there are certainly reasons why not to use some other objects. First of all we need to examine exactly what defines a lie. I believe the lie is an perpendicular intersection between a line coming straight off the pole to you, and the perpendicular line going to your left and to your right (the line you must stay behind to avoid a foot fault). You place your marker at this "T" so that the back edge of your mark designates the right to left line you must stay behind.. Because it is a geometrically perfect circle it helps you to correctly visualize this line.



A circular object can help you visualize the perpendicular planes you speak of but so can other shapes. Would not a triangle be better suited? It would point to the target and give a clearer impression of where the line of play from your lie is located. I would argue that a circle is one of the toughest shapes to help you consider the left to right plane. There is a lot more visual gray area trying to determine the angle of the line of play.


I think any geometrically symmetrical shape would do, as long as it has enough mass to hold its place. This rules out the string and other randomly shaped toys. The marker also must be large enough so that you can watch someone's feet when they throw, in real time, and make a ruling as to whether or not the thrower was directly behind it. This rules out the flag. Why only 3 cm tall? So you don't knock it over on your follow through...obviously it needs to be something that lies flat and stays. This rules out the DG bag...BTW, in the last tourney I played someone on my card left his bag directly in front of his lie and he fell over it on his follow through. I hope this helps.



Thanks for this thoughtful response! I disagree somewhat though. ;)

Obviously if the object will not remain stationary it should not be used. I do not thing that string could be ruled out automatically. It could stay in place or be made to. You could use it in two ways. To demarcate the outside edge of the disc or as a 'straight' line which indicates the line of play.

My main issue is that I think that it is important for the marker to be visible from a reasonable distance. While I do not believe that it is necessary for the group on the next hole to be able to view the mark of your lie I do thing that the marker should be clearly visible to players in the immediate area. I would argue that frequently a standard marker is insufficiently visible to other players. Thus my desire to to use a taller marker in some cases.

By all standards I am an awful player and I end up off of the beaten path frequently. The grass grows a little taller there. The bushes are thicker and the blackberries are perilous. Sometimes you will lose visibility of me, let alone my marker. :)

Often flags are used to demarcate the edge of the teepad. We have to make a ruling as to whether the other players have foot faulted or not. I do not understand why the flag would not be suitable in non-tee shots as well.

Knocking it over on follow through? There is an inherent danger of stepping on an object ahead of you already. A standard mini is often made of slick materials and you can easily lose your footing on one. A powerful follow through can cause footing and balance issues no matter what. If I run into my marker before I release is that not the clearest indication of a foot fault ever? Maybe there should be a little bell on your marker. I have seen people fall over their bags and it is frequently a humorous break. I have not fallen over it when throwing but I have lost my balance backing into a few. Whatever marker is ever used, the thrower should be conscious of their foot placement before, during, and after the shot so as to not lose their footing or balance. We play on rugged ground here mostly. Tall grass can be slippery. Wet things more so. Rocks can be problems as well as holes, roots, branches, etc... We always need to be concerned with not stepping on something we should not and being safe. I do not think that a special consideration should be made for the marker in this case.


I would think it would also be distracting to other players putting from behind a marker that was to tall.



I agree with this but most of the time, there should not be a marked lie in front of the person throwing. The person whose lie is furthest from the basket is the one whose mark you care about. There should not normally be anyone in front of this player. Now I can think of a few cases where there would be a marked lie in front of the throwing player. In these cases if the player is distracted by the sphynx statue you are using as a marker then you could mark your disc with an alternate marker. I would always advise players to have a standard mini and to use it when appropriate. I just think that there are many instances where a standard marker is insufficient and I would like to be able to legally use another marker.


Also, if you fall over, you could put your eye out. That's also why they don't allow Red Rider BB Guns to be used as markers.



Hehe. But my official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifle, with a compass in the stock and 'this thing' which tells time keeps the evil Black Bart and his gang from destroying the disc golf course! One could just as easily fall over and hurt themselves on most anything on a disc golf course including their disc or the target. Caution and safety are always considerations when one makes a throw.


However, if you're in the middle of a round and play is stopped due to inclement weather, you can use just about anything natural to mark your lie, like a pile of dookie or a dead opossum.



Yes, and thus we should not be so restricted in our choice of a lie marker.


I'd think things like cones would easily be knocked away by errant putts (from other players). Keeping a low profile would make the marker less visually intrusive and also keep the probability of being smacked away at a minimum.



Yes a low profile is less likely to be displaced by a throw from another player. However, it is no guarantee and this does occasionally happen with standard mini markers. This lower profile is also part of my problem with the low visibility of many marked lies.


I heard back from Dunipace on this topic and he doesn't remember why specs for markers were made. The original ones were about 4" diameter and the Innova minis at the time were modeled after those. We're waiting to hear from Stork to see if he knows anything about the height limit and why.



Thanks!

Just flip the turtle upside down.



I thought about that, but was afraid it would try to leak on me if I did so. There is nothing worse than a leaking mini. :p

Just flip the turtle upside down.



I thought about that, but was afraid it would try to leak on me if I did so. There is nothing worse than a leaking mini. :p


What types of minis do you commonly use there :eek:

Here is the rule:
"802.02 Mini Marker Discs
A. Mini marker discs shall be used to mark a player�s lie as required by these rules. Mini marker discs must have a diameter of between 7 and 15 centimeters and a height not exceeding 3 centimeters."

What is the rationale for limiting the height of the mini to 3cm? I would like to use a small cone. (Excepting the rule that stipulates it should not be taller than 3cm) can anyone provide a good reason why such a marker should be disallowed?

An audio compact disc meets the criteria defined in the rule. Would anyone find it objectionable to use one as a mini marker? Is it in violation of the spirit of the rule?

Why does the PDGA specifically not allow other types of mini markers except circular (disc) shaped ones? I like the idea of using a flag to mark my lie. What is so fundamentally wrong with using other items to mark your lie that there a ruling to expressedly prohibit it?

Here are a few examples of markers for your lie that I would find reasonable: string, a flag, a bottle, a square or triangle or any other non-circular object, a disc golf bag, the rulebook, a reasonably sized rock, a shuriken, a branch, a plastic skull, a toy, and so forth.



<font color="red"> the key is to use a mini on TOP of your other object as i do when using my 2liter pepsi bottle :D
still meets all legal marking requirements and gets the pepsi out of my hands for easier putting :eek:</font>

<font color="red"> the key is to use a mini on TOP of your other object as i do when using my 2liter pepsi bottle :D
still meets all legal marking requirements and gets the pepsi out of my hands for easier putting :eek:</font>



Good idea! The rules do not appear to prohibit this.

<font color="red"> the key is to use a mini on TOP of your other object as i do when using my 2liter pepsi bottle :D
still meets all legal marking requirements and gets the pepsi out of my hands for easier putting :eek:</font>



Good idea! The rules do not appear to prohibit this.



I used to agree with you on this, but in re-reading the rule I think it is covered:

Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A player may not move...any part of any obstacle...between the lie and the hole...


Since it doesn't say "you cannot remove an obstacle between the lie and hole", it doesn't create the loophole of being able to add an obstacle.

It says you can't move any obstacle between the lie and the hole, which I believe includes moving an obstacle into the position of being between the lie and hole. So no non-mini can be placed, since it would go ahead of your lie.

<font color="red"> the key is to use a mini on TOP of your other object as i do when using my 2liter pepsi bottle :D
still meets all legal marking requirements and gets the pepsi out of my hands for easier putting :eek:</font>



Good idea! The rules do not appear to prohibit this.



I used to agree with you on this, but in re-reading the rule I think it is covered:

Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A player may not move...any part of any obstacle...between the lie and the hole...


Since it doesn't say "you cannot remove an obstacle between the lie and hole", it doesn't create the loophole of being able to add an obstacle.

It says you can't move any obstacle between the lie and the hole, which I believe includes moving an obstacle into the position of being between the lie and hole. So no non-mini can be placed, since it would go ahead of your lie.




ahh...but AFTER i putt it is no longer between my lie and the hole...therefore your argument is WRONG!!!

i can put a tree in front of my lie if it wasn't there beforehand ...people are always putting their drive discs in front of their mini or towels and other objects........
i just can't move it if it was ALREADY THERE....so your "BELIEF" is also faulty....

sorry rhett

Except the rule says the mini must be placed on the playing surface and also touching the disc on the playing surface before it is picked up, neither which could occur if the pepsi is placed there.

ahh...but AFTER i putt it is no longer between my lie and the hole...therefore your argument is WRONG!!!

I wasn't talking about AFTER you putt, so your comment makes no sense. :confused:




i can put a tree in front of my lie if it wasn't there beforehand ...people are always putting their drive discs in front of their mini or towels and other objects........
i just can't move it if it was ALREADY THERE....so your "BELIEF" is also faulty....


Then this is where we disagree, since I thought I stated pretty clearly that I used to think you could place things ahead of your lie, but after reading the actual wording of the actual rule again, I no longer believe that to be the case.

And just because "people are always putting their drive discs in front of their mini" doesn't mean it isn't against the rules. Otherwise pot smoking during PDGA events would be legal, because lots of people are always doing it at PDGA events.

Rhett, you can add obstacles in front of your lie, because they are not obstacles until they are kind-of at read and between the hole and the lie. And unlike normal obastacles that are between the hole and the lie, you could move these because they became a factor during the round.

Chuck had the pertinent point, the mini must be placed on the playing surface touching the thrown disc. There is nothing saying that you can't then place the pepsi on top of the mini.


803.03 Marking the Lie B.
...This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc....

Rhett, you can add obstacles in front of your lie, because they are not obstacles until they are kind-of at read and between the hole and the lie. And unlike normal obastacles that are between the hole and the lie, you could move these because they became a factor during the round.

Chuck had the pertinent point, the mini must be placed on the playing surface touching the thrown disc. There is nothing saying that you can't then place the pepsi on top of the mini.


803.03 Marking the Lie B.
...This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc....






but it is touching the playing surface as required.......you all are not picturing it correctly...maybe from my saying on top, instead of on side, which is where it actually is...with bottle still being in front of angled mini....

i need a way to be able to show a picture....
anyways...it's a legal marking and there is nothing ILLEGAL about a pepsi bottle being in front of the mini in the rules as I PLACED it there...it wasn't/isn't an obstacle that existed BEFORE i established my lie....

That would mean that players (or caddies) could carry a skip or roller ramp and walk toward the basket and place it on the ground before throwing. Or have the caddie hold a deflection sheet for the player to hit and redirect flights. I don't believe the player can put anything in front of their lie. But if it's a loophole, then so be it.

Interestingly we had an argument at a recent tournament where a player was marking with his wallet. Personally I feel that if it is small enough within both width/radius and height restrictions, it should be fine.