Ok Ken climo said it himself and there was a "players union" meeting already this year with one of the main topics being how crappy the baskets are in the game. Wouldn't be nice if baskets were standardized and actually caught dead center putts????

The most unprofessional part of our sport is the BASKETS and its almost a joke to have some of the spitouts and bounceouts some baskets produce.

more details about the "players union" please...

imo baskets are reasonably standardized - there's not much appreciable difference between a mach 1 and the newer top of the line products. further standardization would just lessen the chance for someone to actually build a better mousetrap (which i agree would be nice).

more details about the "players union" please...

imo baskets are reasonably standardized - there's not much appreciable difference between a mach 1 and the newer top of the line products. further standardization would just lessen the chance for someone to actually build a better mousetrap (which i agree would be nice).




The union thing was basically some touring Pros trying to make the sport better and fix some of the things that need to be fixed.

BTW when I mean standardize I don't mean by current standards because they need to improve. Basically you shouldn't be playing on Mach 1s in a NT. I really only feel like there are two baskets on the market that are good enough to be used for BIG tournaments.

I have a Mach 1 at home and I have to say that it does not catch nearly as well as the newer, top-of-the-line baskets. It was designed for Wham-O discs, and once we started all using heavier, smaller golf plastic Ed wisely added a second set of chains.

That being said, I don't think the catching ability of the top-tier baskets is inadequate. Just because you hit the chains near the sweet spot doesn't mean it has to stay in. If you've played any ball golf you'll know that ball golf holes also lip out or fail to hold firm putts.

Most times it's not the basket, it's the putt.

maybe we should just install the new quest baskets on all the courses

maybe we should just install the new quest baskets on all the courses



Great.......pink chains everywhere Also "Ching" replaced with "Clack"

Everyone has to putt on the same baskets during the round so it really doesn't matter.

I would love to have tone poles because at least you won't have bounce outs. The whole thing is that DG started when people would just throw to a tree or another "Target" and our baskets are still labeled as "targets" but even when you hit them that doesn't mean it is in.

IMO the Discatchers and Titans are good and I feel confident putting on them but most other baskets are just too shifty and it sucks to see good solid putts come right back out.

Most times it's not the basket, it's the putt.


i have to agree with this. i've had plenty of nasty spits, just like everyone else, but every basket will take a soft putt pretty well. everyone knows that. with that knowledge, maybe you should be putting softer. granted, it's easier to make a putt from 50 ft if you throw it harder because there will be less room for error when you take out the fade, but that may cause the disc to spit too. that's the risk you take. if the basket will catch a soft putt in the sweet spot everytime you throw one there's nothing wrong with the basket. maybe we should just make every basket so that it catches YOUR putt every time though.

i used to putt pretty hard, myself. it worked really well for hitting the sweet spot a lot, but not for making putts. :)

the fact is, you have to play the basket. if you learn to putt soft and accurate you'll be an incredible putter. yes, it's harder, but why should it be easy to be a great putter? if you want to be better than everyone else then you work harder.

don't get me wrong matt. you're a great player and make a hell of a lot more putts than i do so i'm not trying to make myself out to be a great putter and master of the game. but this game is very similar to ball golf in every aspect and especially with putting. great putters in ball golf are great at speed control AND accuracy. that's why their putts fall. why should disc golf be different? so it's easier?

Basket type is just another of those welcome intangible factors that influences a game. If you're putting on 14-18 chain baskets or single row chains, you better alter your style to be a bit softer. Step up, make the change, show how good of a player you are by being versatile and well rounded. Making the putt, the drive, the upshot have nothing at all to do with anything other than your ability to throw the right disc the right way.

I have Discatchers at my course, and that yellow band and extra deep basket seem to be magnets for my disc (not the chains!). Every basket will spit out from time to time. Every basket favors a different putting style, that's all. Standardization sucks! Variety, adaptation, and versatility RULE! Standardization will lead to all of us playing indoors, climate controlled, no wind, on astro-turf, and with no obstacles because any one of those things may present a challenge to someone who is not up to facing it.

True, some baskets do suck though.

I think that baskets should have crosslinks to prevent cutthroughs and I would just love to see a basket that caught the good ones and spit the bad ones. Unfortunantly we have baskets that spit many of the good ones and catch a lot of the "off" putts. The crosslinks would decrease the ability of the baskets to "snag" the putts that hit wide right or left but would keep the dead center putts in.

I would love to have tone poles because at least you won't have bounce outs.


...would be the end of the ace~pot as we know it...how many aces would we all have?! :eek:

It WOULD be great to have all high-end baskets at every course, and maybe one day we will......But I think right now its better to have even the cheap baskets as long as more and more courses are being developed. The cost for 18 high end vs. cheapo's is pretty significant.

I would expect that any pay-to-play courses have good double chained baskets.

It WOULD be great to have all high-end baskets at every course, and maybe one day we will......But I think right now its better to have even the cheap baskets as long as more and more courses are being developed. The cost for 18 high end vs. cheapo's is pretty significant.

I would expect that any pay-to-play courses have good double chained baskets.



I'm talking about the baskets used in Big PDGA events.

Discatchers are cheap! Best of the bunch as far as value for the ability. $300 ea to your door right from INNOVA, and many people can probably do better with connections, sponsors, package deals, etc. These have 24 chains in 3 layers, a huge basket, and the yellow (or any color) band will stand out anywhere! IMO these are way better than the more expensive Mach, Chainstar, or Titans.

Discatchers are cheap! Best of the bunch as far as value for the ability. $300 ea to your door right from INNOVA, and many people can probably do better with connections, sponsors, package deals, etc. These have 24 chains in 3 layers, a huge basket, and the yellow (or any color) band will stand out anywhere! IMO these are way better than the more expensive Mach, Chainstar, or Titans.




Have you ever putted on a Titan? I have only had 2 bounce outs on this basket and one of them was on purpose. I have one in my backyard and I like to take it to tournaments and let people try to make thier putts spit. Not to many of them are succesful.

[/QUOTE]

I'm talking about the baskets used in Big PDGA events.

[/QUOTE]

In that case, what a great opportunity for DGA, Innova etc. to market their targets by replacing the baskets in a given tour course prior to a major event. ~hint hint~

I'm talking about the baskets used in Big PDGA events.

[/QUOTE]

In that case, what a great opportunity for DGA, Innova etc. to market their targets by replacing the baskets in a given tour course prior to a major event. ~hint hint~

[/QUOTE]

Innova helped out Tulsa last year for AM worlds which helped to improve the courses a lot.

I think standardization of the height the basket should be off the ground is much more important that the standardization of the actual baskets.

I think standardization of the height the basket should be off the ground is much more important that the standardization of the actual baskets.




...What He Said!!!!! :D

Yeah but it is WAY more common to see crappy baskets than baskets that are too high or two low.

I agree with you BTW MTL.

The basket height won't be set because there's enough elevation differences on pin placements that it doesn't matter. You can put a few rocks around the base of the pin and change the official height to "fix" baskets that seem to be a few inches too high. Our course designer group is going for more variety in basket heights (mostly higher) but no more than maybe 4-6 baskets on a course, especially in places where they have flat terrain and not much else to increase the putting challenge.

What does matter is the height from the basket nubs to the underside of the chain support. That should be standardized. The diameter of the basket and the height from basket to chain support is truly our target area that's similar to a hole in ball golf. If you look at our specs, baskets can be approved without any deflection device on the basket. An open basket with no chains is legal for PDGA events.

The Tech Standards Committee will be reviewing and updating standards by the end of the year. Members will have opportunities for feedback along the way.

Standardization sucks! Variety, adaptation, and versatility RULE! Standardization will lead to all of us playing indoors, climate controlled, no wind, on astro-turf, and with no obstacles because any one of those things may present a challenge to someone who is not up to facing it.



So you think that ball golf courses should have different size cups??? One course has 6 inch cups so you can just pound the putt in and one course has 1.5 Inch cups so you can almost NEVER make a putt and one course has 3.5 in cups but they are .6 inches deep so if you dont just die in them they bounce up out of the cup and roll past??? That might be the most rediculous thing I have ever heard......And your saying thats exactly how our disc golf baskets should be??? Rediculous!!! Ever ball golf cup is EXACTLY the same if you putt the same on all of them the ball goes in the cup!!! If you hit dead center on a smooth roll you stay in........If your off center you lip out........If the entire ball is inside the entire cup your putt drops!!! There is no changing up your putt from course to course.......One putt works on ALL ball golf cups.......You dont have to change it up from course to course!!! And we should not have to in disc golf either..........The baskets should all catch the same and one putt should work on every single one of them.......That way a player can develope that one putt and become great and it and have it work every time........Not have to develope 5 different putts for 5 different basket types!!! That is just rediculous...........Oh and about baskets that dont spit all I have to say is SPIDERWEB!!! If you have putt on one you know and if you havent your missing out!!!

If everything caught like a Spiderweb no one would be complainging!!!

Where did you find that quote? I don't see it in this thread and it certainly wasn't mine.

Yeah the spiderwebs are awesome and that was the inspiration for the Titan. Millz, do they have crosslinks? I'm pretty sure that the ones I saw did.

I like the idea of cross wires of some sort to stop a disc from getting knocked vertical and sliding out the back. It just seems like it would really boost the cost because of the way the chains are quickly draped on the hooks now. It might be a pain if you had to manually set up each basket by attaching a bunch of crosswires.

chuck i thought you were loking for ways to makethe baskets tougher, not make them catch better?

same gauge/weight but smaller links with more curtains of 'em Ive often thought...
cross-thingys would change the outside grabbers for sure, maybe just have 'em on the inner 3sets and leave the outer 2sets to dangle and catch my sloppy near blow-bys...

chuck i thought you were loking for ways to makethe baskets tougher, not make them catch better?




Ideally, the best of both worlds would be to have the target smaller but have it catch better than it does right now. But if we're not likely to change the target to a smaller size, then at least make it catch putts that "should" be caught a little better.

chuck i thought you were loking for ways to makethe baskets tougher, not make them catch better?




Ideally, the best of both worlds would be to have the target smaller but have it catch better than it does right now. But if we're not likely to change the target to a smaller size, then at least make it catch putts that "should" be caught a little better.




Hey Chuck gets it. I would rather have a smaller target that caught everything than what we have now. I mean at least you would be rewarded when you threw a good shot.

Where did you find that quote? I don't see it in this thread and it certainly wasn't mine.



SuperBerry posted it up toward the top of the page and do you dissagree with me???

No, I do agree with you but you clicked on my post for your response which made it look like my quote.

WRONG Mullet! Every ball golf cup is NOT the same. They are in teh ground, and the ground has curves and elevation associated with the edges of the cup. One edge may be higher if it's on a slope. You'll roll over if you putt fast downhill but not necessarily uphill. You have to change your putt on each and every spot of the same green!

Not to mention that you roll the ball along the same curving, sloping, various length grass terrain which changes how your ball approaches the cup. In ball golf you have to adjust for all that. Just like in disc golf you better adjust your putting throw for a crappy basket.

Get over it and learn how to putt in different ways. There's never gonna be just one basket! If there were we'd have 20% of the courses we have now.

WRONG Mullet! Every ball gold cup is NOT the same. They are in teh ground, and the ground has curves and elevation associated with the edges of the cup. One edge may be higher if it's on a slope. You'll roll over if you putt fast downhill but not necessarily uphill. You have to change your putt on each and every spot of the same green!

Not to mention that you roll the ball along the same curving, sloping, various length grass terrain which changes how your ball approaches the cup. In ball golf you have to adjust for all that. Just like in disc golf you better adjust your putting throw for a crappy basket.

Get over it and learn how to putt in different ways. There's never gonna be just one basket! If there were we'd have 20% of the courses we have now.




Yeah but the Cups are the same............

I get that, but the cup is set into the ground, which makes each one very different. The cup isn't a cup unless it's placed in the ground. All baskets are supposed to be level and of standard (or close to) height from the ground. So instead of the varaibles being the ground, your ball, your putter, and how you putt in ball golf, it's the basket, your putter, and how you throw in disc. One less variable if you consider wind, rain, etc will effect each sport in some way.

So basically the slope is what makes you change you putt right? Well the same is true in DG. You have to adjust your putt to prevent rollaways and swuch but you shouldn't have to change you putt due to the style of basket.

All I want is a basket that catches the good putts and not the bad ones. That can't be too much to ask if the sport is supposed to be serious.

But the rollaway is after a missed disc putt.

At first I was looking at it like there is nothing in the way in disc golf but air, so it's you and the basket. But I know it's not true, there are trees bushes etc, so I guess I can concede. But I still welcome variety. I'd still play if there was only one basket, but I don't care what kind of basket there is, I just want to play (in most cases anyway - the baskets in Sturgeon Bay WI do not have a ring, the bottom of the chain is connected right to the basket and those SUCK, so don't complain too much until you play those, basically there are 12 chains with no slack!)

No point in arguing, I like challenge and variety, and don't mind one bit as long as I'm playing, even if I am missing putts, it's always just what happens in my mind, something I did, nothing the basket caused.

Even in ball golf you can hit a putt that "should" go in, but doesn't if the speed is off. I think that putting speed,angle, and placement should be adapted to the type of basket, height and possible "bad bounce/rolls".

im just happy this basket isnt the norm. talk about crappy catching ability. www.prsc.qld.gov.au/gfx/pubs/1353678679_r0.jpg (http://www.prsc.qld.gov.au/gfx/pubs/1353678679_r0.jpg)

Why don't we just use cone baskets? Thos things catch really well from what I have seen.

Except that in ball golf, the putts that "should go in" will almost never go in if the conditions of that putt are repeated i.e. speed, spin, angle. However, we don't have a uniform chain pattern facing the same putt thrown at exactly the same speed, angle, etc. As you move around the basket, the chains present themself to the putter slightly differently as you move around a 30 degree angle and then repeats. In addition, unless the basket is perfectly level and it was assembled perfectly and the chains are on the hooks just right, every 30 degree segment won't repeat exactly the same as the previous one. No player is good enough to see the difference in the pattern to slightly change their putt to prevent the disc flipping vertical and sliding thru sometimes. We might need high speed video to learn that when the leading basket chain is at 14.5 degrees off your line that you need a little more anhyzer to prevent the vertical flip.

I think the capriciousness caused by varying chain angle is analagous to the random spike mark or ball divot on a ball golf green. A putt that is struck on the perfect line at the perfect speed may be missed simply because the ball is knocked off course by a spike mark or ball divot. And unlike the crossed chain on a basket that you can adjust, in ball golf you can't fix a spike mark in your putting line. Of course, you can always adjust the way you putt and choose a different line and speed...

Yeah the spiderwebs are awesome and that was the inspiration for the Titan. Millz, do they have crosslinks? I'm pretty sure that the ones I saw did.



If you are talking about Alan Pier's Spider Basket from Peru, Indiana. It does not have crosslinks. It was way ahead of its time, had three layers of chain, 12,6,6, a deeper basket than what was currently available, in-line nubs, and was widely considered to be the best target, but could only be gotten in Indiana.

The capriciousness of the chain angle is nowhere near the same as the occasional spike mark partly because it has nothing to do with the target. It's more like a random small tree branch that didn't get nipped that's in your way for putting. Yes, the hole itself might have a nick in it sometimes but that's controlled pretty well, at least on competition courses.

The closest analogy would be if the ball golf hole itself was a dodecahedron shape (12 sided) instead of circular. Then, as the position of the ball moves 30 degrees in an arc around the hole, the shape of the hole presented to the putter would gradually shift and then repeat. Putts that catch the edge would have different results in terms of ones that get caught and ones that spin away at odd angles. Players would have a difficult time knowing which angles might cause the spin-away versus go-in, just like it's impossible to tell which chain angle might be more hazardous than others for vertical slide-thrus.

my biggest problem is with bounce outs when i hit low and center. while i know the simple solution is for me to putt in a way that minimizes that, has consideration ever been given to making the center pole smaller in diameter or modified in some way to produce less bounce?

There was a Mach basket produced at one point where the pole had a foam rubber sleeve to absorb the shock. I think it didn't even have inner chains. However, it turned out to not work any better and may have actually caused discs to bounce out even more. Those who played in the first Sandy Point Team events in the mid-90s might remember those.

Everyone has to putt on the same baskets during the round so it really doesn't matter.



It does matter. Not a fan of that statement as an argument (it impedes progress IMO)

Scooter is advocating a differentiation of skill, not who has the fewest bad breaks, or who loses the coinflip when the spitout hits the hard pan beneath the bucket and rolls 100ft away possibly OB (as some courses are designed) These things instigate Luck they don't differentiate skill in most cases
(Most)every pro can tell when a putt was bad (way too hard, high, left) vs a solid putt that hits the heart and hits the ground anyway. These are the ones we neither like to have nor see our opponents take (if your a good person you don't)

And I've lipped out of at least a hundred ball golf putts, and never once did it roll 100ft away ("very few" ball golf courses have hardpan greens - fast maybe). Fast greens are great, but how about a small buffer zone in the immediate area of the bucket to reduce the roll aways (I know 10 guys just said it's part of our sport at the same time) it's ok to have a fast green 5-10 feet past a bucket, rollaways are part of the sport, but instigating them by having buckets on hardpan slopes artificially separates scores, I would rather win because I earned it, not because my "fellow" opponent chains out (1 stroke)and rolls away(possibly 2 strokes). If he misses high, right, left, airballs, or skips off the rim, then I'm more tolerable of the rollaways and the consequences, but watching an already bad break slow roll down some hill side doesn't feel like fun or fair to me. (watching an airball fly effortlessly 100ft away is a little more enjoyable)

(200+ tournaments 200+ courses under my belt just speaking from personal experiences)

And for the record, I think that the baskets while not perfect, serve us well and are durable enough to handle chicken, vandals, and the occasional black bear.

Thank you Steady ED!!!!!!!!

Hey Chuck!

Good job at the IDGC - hope the course is progressing as you had hoped!

Keep up the good work!

I think the rollaway issue is starting to be addressed where possible with members of the course designer group. Ideally, a green should be designed where the impact of bang & roll aways is somewhat limited by having a softer landing area around baskets on slopes like sand or wood chips. In addition, having a barrier like a 12" or more diameter log located maybe 20-30 feet below a basket to potentially stop most discs rolling away too far would help. It doesn't stop bad shots that fly over it so it works well to reduce bad luck and not reward bad throws. Another simple thing is to not mow the grass 20-30 feet away on the lower side of a perched pin to slow down any discs rolling away.

Thanks, Chris. Want the full time job just posted there? I don't think much has been done on the Steady Ed course since the Grand Opening since I believe all efforts are on getting the East course completed by the end of the year. Hopefully, the flag we marked is still there for alternate 11.

my biggest problem is with bounce outs when i hit low and center. while i know the simple solution is for me to putt in a way that minimizes that, has consideration ever been given to making the center pole smaller in diameter or modified in some way to produce less bounce?




Make the inner set of chains heavier so that the disc won't be able to reach the pole. We took some video in STL: putting on a Titan and out of ten people only two actually reach the pole and that was only two putts out of ten by each person. So basically 1/50 putts reached the pole and even those didn't have enough force to bounce out.

Oh yeah and they were really hard putts. :D

If you hit dead center on a smooth roll you stay in........If your off center you lip out........If the entire ball is inside the entire cup your putt drops!!!

Definitely NOT true in MY ball golf experience! I have struck plenty of putts that were smooth and DEAD CENTER with the cup, but were too fast. The ball doesn't drop in time, hits the far lip of the cup, and bounces/rolls away. That seems like a pretty good analogy to a spit in DG to me. Heck, I've hit a few balls so hot that they skimmed over the center of the cup like it wasn't even there. I'm not about to blame that on the cup, mea culpa!

nanook

I think dead center bounce backs are the DG equivalent of a hot putt in ball golf that jumps the cup. However, the proper speed putt that comes in essentially level but hits the chains and flips vertical out the back is not really like the hot BG putt.

If you hit dead center on a smooth roll you stay in........If your off center you lip out........If the entire ball is inside the entire cup your putt drops!!!

Definitely NOT true in MY ball golf experience! I have struck plenty of putts that were smooth and DEAD CENTER with the cup, but were too fast. The ball doesn't drop in time, hits the far lip of the cup, and bounces/rolls away. That seems like a pretty good analogy to a spit in DG to me. Heck, I've hit a few balls so hot that they skimmed over the center of the cup like it wasn't even there. I'm not about to blame that on the cup, mea culpa!

nanook



Yeah but in DG it isn't always the hard putts that bounce off the pole it is just as likely to be a solid normal speed putt.

I've never had a normal, moderate speed, low trajectory, nose down, dead center putt bounce out. If you bounce out, you [censored] up. End of story.

Tell yourself it was the basket all you want for the sake of your confidence (superstition is the key to success for many athletes), but my thought on it is... you. [censored]. up.

I've never had a normal, moderate speed, low trajectory, nose down, dead center putt bounce out. If you bounce out, you [censored] up. End of story.

Tell yourself it was the basket all you want for the sake of your confidence (superstition is the key to success for many athletes), but my thought on it is... you. [censored]. up.



Really? Well i have actually have putts come out because they were "too soft" and pushed the chains in but when they rebounded so did the disc and it never even got to the pole.

If you hit your target it should stick!!!! That is the difference between us and golf! We are throwing at targets!

great post Spra-goo

In the Atlanta Open this year I hada cut through in the third round that rolled 25 feet, then the following putt cut through.

I mean, I was upset about it, but I didn't let it bother me and still shot the second hot round.

In retrospect, had the first putt stayed, I would have make 300 dollars more and finished 2nd instead of 6th.

Had it not rolled away / comeback not cut though, I would have made about 175 more and finished 4th.

Just really really frustrating.

[QUOTE]
If you hit your target it should stick!!!! That is the difference between us and golf! We are throwing at targets!



There are the same sort of problems with the hole in ball golf. The hole isn't ever perfect in ball golf. A few years back there was a big stink that came up on the PGA tour that the players referred to as, "Getting Painted".

Getting Painted, was the result of a ball spinning out due to the white paint put on the top 1/2 of the hole so that it will show up on TV better. The players complained enough that the paint is now 1/4 or so below the lip. Still enough for it to be picked up by the cameras but enough below that the players can no longer complain about getting painted.

Watch a major championship and you'll see a lot of lip outs still. This is primarily due to the sharpness of the holes upper edge. On really firm and fast greens, as is the case in most majors, the ball has a greater tendency to hold on that edge and spin out.

I've seen video of putts where the equator of the ball appears to dip just below the lip but the centrifugal force and spin of it rolling along the lip forces it to rise back out of the hole and roll 4' away.

The worse example of a lip I've seen was in the PGA qualifying school where a guy by the name of "Joe Daley", no relation to Big John, hit a putt dead center but at just the right speed to catch the top edge of the cup and bounce right back at him and stop 1" away from the front edge of the hole. And the worst part of that is that he ended up missing his tour card by one stroke.

Lastly, as the day goes on players in the later rounds have the donut to contend with. The donut is a depressed area around the hole causes by players feet as they get their balls out of the holes which causes the lip of the hole to be higher than the area just outside the hole. This isn't so much of an issue on the really firm greens in the majors. However, soft courses can have as much as a 1/4 or so higher lip. This means players have to putt firmer and not always die the putt into the hole.

So the moral of my story is there is nothing that catches or holes out perfectly. Players always have to adjust to the conditions. "____ Happens", as the bumper sticker says.

Everyone has to putt on the same baskets during the round so it really doesn't matter.



It does matter. Not a fan of that statement as an argument (it impedes progress IMO)

Scooter is advocating a differentiation of skill, not who has the fewest bad breaks, or who loses the coinflip when the spitout hits the hard pan beneath the bucket and rolls 100ft away possibly OB (as some courses are designed) These things instigate Luck they don't differentiate skill in most cases
(Most)every pro can tell when a putt was bad (way too hard, high, left) vs a solid putt that hits the heart and hits the ground anyway. These are the ones we neither like to have nor see our opponents take (if your a good person you don't)



I have to disagree. If you're throwing the same hole, at the same basket it's fair. You really can't argue. Luck or "bad breaks" is not something you can take into account. Its part of the game. It's part of most every sport. You have the same chance of a putt spitting out as I do. Through four rounds and 200-some-odd shots in a tourny, you'll have good luck and bad luck. You may win by one stroke and your opponent may have had a horrible kick 2 inches out-of-bounds on the 5th hole of the 2nd round. Are you going to feel bad for winning? NO! Its part of the game. Throw it down the fairway and don't hit a tree. Or don't putt it so hard and it won't cut through. And if it does, sorry. A "skilled" player will put the drive closer and therefor having less of a chance to cut through. I've had plenty cut through and so have we all. It's going to happen many more times too, but we all have the exact same chances of it. If you putt really hard, it may happen a lot more to you. Spin putters and push putters get more than pitch putters and straddle putters. Some of us have made the adjustment to what works best and you have to live with the consequences.




I would rather win because I earned it, not because my "fellow" opponent chains out (1 stroke)and rolls away(possibly 2 strokes).



I would rather win because I earned it as well, but I'd never blame losing on a basket. That's weak.

Bring back the saucer cone baskets. No cut thrus and the basket presents a uniform look and rebound reaction from every direction. One improvement would be repositioning or shielding the attaching bolt to avoid the dreaded "getting bolted" which is hitting it and popping back out. In addition, if the sloping part of the cone could be made with a softer but rugged material instead of molded plastic to cushion the putt, we might have ourselves a better basket. The basket could also use nubs, be a little deeper and the cone be a little taller.

I've never had a normal, moderate speed, low trajectory, nose down, dead center putt bounce out. If you bounce out, you [censored] up. End of story.

Tell yourself it was the basket all you want for the sake of your confidence (superstition is the key to success for many athletes), but my thought on it is... you. [censored]. up.



Really? Well i have actually have putts come out because they were "too soft" and pushed the chains in but when they rebounded so did the disc and it never even got to the pole.

If you hit your target it should stick!!!! That is the difference between us and golf! We are throwing at targets!

Never had it happen. Never seen it. Never heard of it. I don't know if I completely believe it.

The ONLY case where I consider someone robbed is if they have a low putt, nose down, soft to moderate speed... hit the ring at the bottom of the chains and bounce back upward and outward. Those are the ONLY cases where I feel the putter didn't screw up.

I do not like the idea of standardized height of baskets.

Why?

Well, I know comparisons with ball golf get tiresome, but here's another one. Greens on ball courses vary greatly, elevations, size, shape, placement of the hole.
Our courses don't have the specific shape and size of green (aside from the putting circle), and elevation is hand-in-hand with the design of each hole, and placements are less variable. So, let's have some variety by having differing heights. Maybe a pole hole on a 7' pole isn't very practical, but there are designs that seem great, based on pictures on other threads.

As far as basket design, that's part of the beauty of our sport too. If it's a less automatic catcher (like a Mach 1) that adds a little difficulty to the game. Why should every putt be automatic, every hole a 2?

I've never had a normal, moderate speed, low trajectory, nose down, dead center putt bounce out. If you bounce out, you [censored] up. End of story.

Tell yourself it was the basket all you want for the sake of your confidence (superstition is the key to success for many athletes), but my thought on it is... you. [censored]. up.



Really? Well i have actually have putts come out because they were "too soft" and pushed the chains in but when they rebounded so did the disc and it never even got to the pole.

If you hit your target it should stick!!!! That is the difference between us and golf! We are throwing at targets!

Never had it happen. Never seen it. Never heard of it. I don't know if I completely believe it.

The ONLY case where I consider someone robbed is if they have a low putt, nose down, soft to moderate speed... hit the ring at the bottom of the chains and bounce back upward and outward. Those are the ONLY cases where I feel the putter didn't screw up.



The funny thing is that I was putting soft on these baskets because I have a lot of bounce outs and I was like 9ft away. I lightly tossed it at the pole (dead flat) it pushed the chains in and the disc stayed flat but never dropped and when the chains tried to come back to thier original position they pushed the disc back out.

I wasn't mad about it and actually laughed REALLY REALLY loud and my dad was on the next teebox and was laughing even louder. It was just funny that the putt came out because I putted it too soft when the whole time I was worried about them coming out because they were too hard.

I have only had this happen 1 other time ever so i wouldn't doubt that it has never happened to you because if you have ever met me all I ever do is putt during lunch breaks, awards, and any other time in a tournament as well as 1-2 hours a day at home.

Bring back the saucer cone baskets.



Moir Park baby!!!! Could you imagine the whinning that would take place from the sport's best... :D

Bring back the saucer cone baskets.



Moir Park baby!!!! Could you imagine the whinning that would take place from the sport's best... :D



My friends and I once found a "hidden" course. We called it that because noboday had ever heard of it and nobody played it but us. The baskets where actually wooden boxes placed atop a pole about 4 feet in the air. You had to drop it in and get it to stay in the box.

I have got to say that I have seen and had many "perfect putts" come out for one reason or another not involving excess speed or missing the mark. That being said, not getting what should be a good putt is one thing, rolling away after is another. That amounts to a 2 stroke fluke penalty. I must also say that 95%, (maybe more, of the spit outs or cut throughs I have seen were not the good putts they were claimed to be by the putter, and could have been avoided by better technique. I am definitely an advocate of a small 10 ft across apron around the basket to help prevent good pukes from rolling away afterward. Shots that bounce off will probably miss the apron, and slice throughs that were too fast might also. That's okay IMO. Putting should be risky, but not too flukey IMO.

. Greens on ball courses vary greatly, elevations, size, shape, placement of the hole.




I second that with ball golf putting green speeds that changed throughout the day. Heavy dewed morning greens can be way slower increasing in speed when they dry, only to slow back down when the grass stands at noon, and speed up when the grass follows the sun down. Try putting at baskets that take hard putts at the beginning of the round and soft at the end. I change putter plastics from hard to soft depending on baskets and courses.

When I think of the misfortunes of disc golf putting, I think not of ball golf, but of bowling.

Each one of us has missed a putt and thought "gee, that should have stayed in." Think nose-dive wide open split. Stuff happens, and an inch or two either way and a strike would have resulted.

Each one of us has made a putt and thought "gee, that shouldn't have stayed in." Think Brooklyn strike. A shot so poor, it was good.

This would be a boring game if everything turned out as planned.

Joe

luck will always factor in; Climo simply pointed out that by improving basket design we could decrease the frequency with which luck factors into final scores.

is anyone in favor of going the opposite direction: increasing the amount of good putts that don't stick? (and bad ones that do)
... on the other hand, i guess that might make the top Pros less unassailable :D

luck will always factor in; Climo simply pointed out that by improving basket design we could decrease the frequency with which luck factors into final scores.

is anyone in favor of going the opposite direction: increasing the amount of good putts that don't stick? (and bad ones that do)

Well said!



I've never had a normal, moderate speed, low trajectory, nose down, dead center putt bounce out.

Keep playing, you will!


I also agree with Chris' assertion that bounce-outs, cut-through's and donks shouldn't be punished with an excessive roll-away. I like Dave's 10 ft. apron concept. I think Chuck's 20-30 ft. is too far. For one it forces the player that hit the basket and rolled away to still have a bit of work left and it could stop the air ball putt from ending up 40+ ft. away, where it should be.

As Chuck mentioned, the ideas for raised baskets are being discussed in the designers group. I disagree, however, with artificially limiting raised baskets to 4-6 per course. I think, given sufficient resources, that we should make every "green" the best that it can be. While I applaud those that have created raised baskets through various means, I think that those are just the first baby steps towards creating real disc golf courses with "great greens".

THREAD DRIFT: Greens should have different looks and different strategic elements. Existing terrain needs to be coupled with moving dirt and building errosion control to create multiple strategic elements. We have many tee shots that require choices, we also need to incorporate much greater course management into our shots to the greens. i.e. players could choose between landing 60-70 ft. left of the basket with a 5 ft. high "backstop" close behind the basket, or scoot a shot up the middle under a low ceiling that could get within 40 ft., but have a big drop-off close behind the basket, or attempt a huge spike-hyzer to get "parked", but if it comes up short it's down the big hill behind the 5ft. "backstop".

If you hit dead center on a smooth roll you stay in........If your off center you lip out........If the entire ball is inside the entire cup your putt drops!!!

Definitely NOT true in MY ball golf experience! I have struck plenty of putts that were smooth and DEAD CENTER with the cup, but were too fast. The ball doesn't drop in time, hits the far lip of the cup, and bounces/rolls away. That seems like a pretty good analogy to a spit in DG to me. Heck, I've hit a few balls so hot that they skimmed over the center of the cup like it wasn't even there. I'm not about to blame that on the cup, mea culpa!

nanook



No offence but your probly not a very good ball golfer..........I have played ball golf since I was old enough to stand a swing a club and I have never seen what looks like a perfect putt come back out of a cup that was cut and placed in the right way........its just doesnt happen.......Sure fast putts may skip or or lip out but those were not good putts..........You know exactly what you have to do to a golf ball to make it go in the hole every time.......If its going nice and slow you can drop it in the side if its a straigt putt you can firm it and hit the back of the cup and get it to drop.......If your just a tad hard and didnt read the line correctly your ball is going to lip out........If someone takes the exact same line and read as you did but hits a slower softer putt on that left side his will die in the hole while your rolled away.....Its that simple........The example of the guy who missed the Tour card by is is just like a spit out in disc golf..........Someone set the cup wrong and he hit it and guy screwed completely and he didnt just miss out on 100 bucks he missed out on maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars that year.........Who knows he could have won a big tournament that year if he got his card in which he would maybe have missed out on a million dollars who knows but im telling you right now that cup was not set in the ground correctly..........Now to disc golf........I have had a ten footer that looked identical to another ten footer that I threw from exactly the same spot spit threw the back of the chains on me and I have also had that exact same putt hit the pole and come back at me and that same put hit the pole and spit out the left side on me and the right side........Thats not fair............This is all while practicing on my Chainstars at home........I know what speed my putts are and I have had nearly Identical putts stick and spit and stick some more and spit and roll and stick some more and hit the pole and the bottom of the basket and jump out and everything you can emagine and I have only been playing disc golf for 4 years!!!

So in only 4 years of disc golf I have seen more picture perfect putts not stay in the basket then I care to talk about. On the other hand in my 20 years of ball golf I cant remeber having a single ball golf putt not stay in the cup when I thought it should have.

And thats the bottom line........Maybe some day in the near future when spits cost disc golfers 10 thousand dollars instead of 300 someone will realize that all the major tournaments should be played on SpiderWebs or a new basket that catches more effeciently than the one we play on today!!!

The goal should not be to standardize baskets but to improve their design so that the new baskets being planted will work more consistently. The technology of discs is superb. The technology of baskets is not. Given how weak the design of most baskets is, I am surprized that the major manufacturers have not built a better basket.

Look at how many great new discs we have seen in the past few years. Has there been a better basket introduced in the past decade? Maybe but I haven't seen it. The only basket I have ever seen that was clearly better than the others was the Spider Web and those do not appear to be actively marketed.

Every sport has some degree of luck. It should be the goal
of the rules and of the equipment and playing fields developed for a given sport to minimize luck and maximize skill.

Some sports have a high degree of luck: Bowling, Hockey, Poker. Those sports are flawed because of their luck factor.

Disc Golf will improve as the luck factor diminishes. We cannot control of how a disc bounces off a tree. We can control how a basket catches to a much higher degree.

An apparently perfect putt to the center of the chains should stick. When that apparently perfect putt is about to touch the chains, no one can predict whether it will stick, bounce back or blow through. In most sports a perfect shot is rewarded. In disc golf we hold our breath and pray.

The suggestion that we learn to putt much softer or adjust our putting styles in other various ways does not forgive the poor basket designs we currently deal with. When the wind picks up, what do you do? With minor exceptions, you putt flat and firm and aim at the pole. And hold your breath.

If I am wrong and the baskets are just fine and all I have to do is learn a new putting style then please tell me who does it right. Look at the great pros. Does someone have some truly unique style that stops bounce backs and blow throughs? It seems to me that they all try to putt firmly to the center of the chains. Then they hold their breath.

I am not especially concerned with whether weak putts stick or not. If it could be standardized it would great. If that luck factor remains high, I can live with it. It is the good putts that do not stick that bother me. It is a shame we cannot put a sensor on the pole that would go off if a disc hits it within a given speed range. Maybe one day.

The Spider Web proves that a better mouse trap is readily possible. Why isn't that mouse trap or a similarly effective one on the market?

That is what I have been asking myself ever since I putted on one @ George Wilson Park over 3 years ago!!!

Is there anywhere you can get a look at this Spider-web basket? My curiosity has been peaked!

Is there anywhere you can get a look at this Spider-web basket? My curiosity has been peaked!



I second this motion!!

Yeah travel to IN and hope they have extra holes set up because they usually use Spider Webs on the extra holes they make!!!

They say they have them here.
http://www.francepark.com/discgolf.htm

Wow I started this thread just for this reason......Today on the 26th of 27 holes I threw a great drive and had a 15ft up/side hill birdie putt on one of the newer Mach 2s with only 18 chains. Well the putt was dead center bounced out and rolled 45-50ft down the hill. I hit the putt and ended up tying for 2nd anyway but it just irked me that I was penalized for hitting dead center.

On single chain baskets you have to putt softer. 90 MPH bullet-putts aren't the right choice for all situations. :)

On single chain baskets you have to putt softer. 90 MPH bullet-putts aren't the right choice for all situations.



The very fact you have to say that indicates the problem with baskets in terms of being a consistent target. Kind of like telling someone they have to putt differently on a ball golf hole cut with a pinking shear edge rather than circular.

On single chain baskets you have to putt softer. 90 MPH bullet-putts aren't the right choice for all situations.



The very fact you have to say that indicates the problem with baskets in terms of being a consistent target. Kind of like telling someone they have to putt differently on a ball golf hole cut with a pinking shear edge rather than circular.




I was lob putting this weekend on those baskets for that reason. It was not hard but it didn't hit any chains either. I split the outer and the inner didn't do anything so it was basically all pole and nothing else.

Its pretty bad that i had a feeling that would happend and its even worse that we do worry about short putts bouncing out because of the baskets. BTW it would have stuck on a Mach III and I don't even like those.

Hey Dave_D, Your baskets at least catch the good ones and that's all we need.

Rhett,

I actually had some putt that round that I didn't execute well and we a little left or right but they stuck but when I do execute a shot i get penalized for it. Its pretty bad when you let go and are [censored] because its going to hit the pole and may bounce out instead of dumping in left or right.

When I was in cali I was putting harder than I have in a long time and that isn't my normal so do try to say I putt 90MPH.


GOOD EXECUTION OF SHOTS SHOULD BE REWARDED AND POOR EXECUTION SHOULD NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sometimes good execution means not to gun it as hard as you can. Who says we need baskets that catch all putts? If you putting on a crappy basket during a tournament, so is everyone else.

I hit dead center on a basket with 3 sets of chains during doubles, and it bounced out. I didn't care, I knew it was a great putt, but my partner started b.i.t.c.h.ing about it. As soon as it happened, he threw his hands in the air and made a contorted face usually reserved for when you are in great pain. "We were SO robbed!!!" he exclaimed to nobody who cared. He kept going on with it for another 15-20 seconds right there... I really wanted to tell him to stop complaining, but it probably would have made him even angrier. I swear he brought that putt up about 4 or 5 (maybe 6) different times during the round. I chalked it up as a great putt the second I let it go, and it happened to fall out. Unfortunately for me and the group we were playing against, he never let it go. Kind of annoying.

Maybe that's why I have a bias about this issue, because of that one time... At any rate, just putt. If you hit it in the middle and it's the right speed, it will almost always go in, but at least be gracious and mature those times when it doesn't. I would rather hit the putt perfectly and have it fall out than to mess up and have it somehow go in.

-Brandon

It seems to me that the issue is with the chain design, and that there isn't enough consistency in how they catch and the same put, all the time.
As this has been stated earlier, this seems to come from the layout of the chains.
Why are they all vertical?
What about ones that curve left and right?
I have included a picture of the outside chains (I have shown it using wire instead) showing a curving /crossing layout.

cross chains photo (http://flickr.com/photos/tjm_22/827024915/)

There would be another offset set of chains inside that can be shorter, to catch those discs that get through the first set.

Each chain crosses another 3 times, and as it gets lower, the firmer it is going to act against discs - ie good, low, centre putts would be consistently caught, which is what we seem to all want.

Note that I haven't tested it - just theory at present.

Thoughts?

Scooter is not saying that we should have a basket that catches all the junk we throw its way, people. He says that he is not throwing hard at the baskets. He is a 1000+ rated player who practices alot on his putt and wants to simply suggest progress. He even admits to making adjustments for the temperment of the baskets. A lob putt is a slower putt that has arc to it like a basketball shot. I know all too well that the Mach new II's have bald spots on them. Really walk around one, there are I believe six bald spots: outer chain, inner chain, pole... Attacking the way some people putt is not a valid point that should be made. I keep waiting for someone to cry out, "Burn him at the stake". The only thing that Scooter is doing here is saying, hey this could be better, lets look at this...

On single chain baskets you have to putt softer. 90 MPH bullet-putts aren't the right choice for all situations.



The very fact you have to say that indicates the problem with baskets in terms of being a consistent target. Kind of like telling someone they have to putt differently on a ball golf hole cut with a pinking shear edge rather than circular.



I'm not sure I'd agree with your statement Chuck. Maybe I'm missing your point. :confused: But putting in ball golf is all about speed. The speed of the putt is the most critical aspect of holing out.

And the sharper the edges of the cup the more critical it is to judge the speed correctly. Two putts hit from 2' with different speeds at one side of the cup will have dramatically different results. One putt that has lost most of it's speed as it gets to the edge of the hole has a very high chance of tumbling into the cup. A putt hit on the same line but with enough speed to roll 2' past the hole has a very high chance of lipping out.

In this regard I think baskets are the same. Throw the putt to hard on the side of the chains and there is a good chance it will spit through. While a softer shot bites on the chains and falls in.

Maybe it's me but I think knowing and understanding this is part of the game and art of holing out. Taking a good look at the target and judging where the chains are and where you need to put the disc in order for it part of reading a putt. I don't think there is anyway there should be a target that catches 100% of all putts just because 60% or more of the disc catches chains. What's the British Open this weekend and you'll see a lot of putts with 60% of the ball catching part of the hole only to spin out and leave a nasty combacker.

The other big difference is putter material which is unique to disc golf. Take a hard firm putter such as a KC vs a FLX. One will have a better chance of biting into the chains vs the other. You can't really compare that to anything in ball golf in regards to putting. Syrlyn vs Balata doesn't make enough of a difference they all lip out.

I'm not sure I'd agree with your statement Chuck. Maybe I'm missing your point.



I think you are. I'm saying players shouldn't be forced to change putting speeds for targets with a different number and pattern of chains. At least for NTs and Championships, the baskets are now required to all be the same for one course and have inner chains.

Players do not have the knowledge to adjust their putting speeds and angles based on the chain pattern facing them because that kind of data isn't available. As I posted before, no one has determined that when the lead chain on a DB-5 is 15 degrees to your left, that this is the time you have to be more careful because this is the notorius chain position that is most likely to turn a RHBH level putt vertical and slide out the back. If we had that knowledge and players could actually see the different patterns to adjust, that might be cool. However, the target for our sport at the highest levels shouldn't even require that level of technicality and research to be fair.

Scooter is wrong, as are those advocating directly for a change in basket structure. Not that we can't or shouldn't, just that the change won't do what they think it will.

First, Scooter is correct, you can soft bounce a putt out. The way you do it is by putting softly, high up on the chains, so that the chain action pushes back and there is enough room so that the disc falls out before it falls into the basket.

Anyone who thinks this was a good shot is fooling themselves. A putt that hit the chains lower and slid down into the basket was a better shot. Or even better, a shot thrown at the right speed so that it neither bounced out due to high velocity or low velocity was a better putt.

The fact is that we could make a perfect basket, it would catch everything thrown anywhere near it and the game would be different than it is. You could do the same with basketball; think of all those shots that bounce off the back of the rim. Heck, those shots are usually more than 1/3 of the way in the hole and yet they come out. Now that is a bad basket. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The reality is that the right shot under the right conditions will fall. If it doesn't something is wrong. That something can be distance, velocity, angle or a number of other factors. The plain and simple truth is that a better drive, a better upshot, and a better putt will get you in the basket for good... no matter what the shape or design of the basket.

I've never bounced a disc off a pole, other than when I tried to. I use a lift putt that drops in, hits the chains, and slides down. I've had very few fly-throughs; all of them came when I had a lousy upshot and had to push my disc hard at the basket to get it into the chains. These two points are important. In the first case, the proper putting style solves the problem. That is, a great player should be able to adjust their putting style to fit the circumstances. In the second, a harder putt was needed because of a poor upshot.

Bounced putts are always a reflection of the situation. Yes, we'd like every putt that gets into the chains to fall; that should not be our goal. Our goal should be to develop the skills so that we can look at that putt and say, "what angle, speed, loft etc. is most likely to put me in the hole and keep me there?" That should include an ability to look at the basket and ask yourself, "what will that basket take?"

Finally, no matter what design changes are implemented, you will simply change the range. Instead of there being a greater risk of bounce outs under conditions X, you will change that formula so that bounce outs are greater under conditions Y. The game will adjust as will players and then some other Pro will get irritated that the conditions don't fit his game and will start a crusade to have a change made.

Isn't it time we asked players to really learn how to putt instead of trying to adjust the game to fit their needs?

...or use Skillshots. :DThey do indeed catch better than most baskets. :eek: :o

Wow some people on here are freakin nuts.......

Of course you don't get many bounce outs Lyle but your putting style also decreases the amount that also go into the chains.....

I don't even see how they can argue that the baskets are fine and the fact that they spit a lot of putts is just a part of the game.


BASKETS NEED TO CATCH THE PUTTS IN THE HEART AND SPIT THOSE THAT ARE NOT!!!~!!!!

It seems to me that the issue is with the chain design, and that there isn't enough consistency in how they catch and the same put, all the time.
As this has been stated earlier, this seems to come from the layout of the chains.
Why are they all vertical?
What about ones that curve left and right?
I have included a picture of the outside chains (I have shown it using wire instead) showing a curving /crossing layout.

cross chains photo (http://flickr.com/photos/tjm_22/827024915/)

There would be another offset set of chains inside that can be shorter, to catch those discs that get through the first set.

Each chain crosses another 3 times, and as it gets lower, the firmer it is going to act against discs - ie good, low, centre putts would be consistently caught, which is what we seem to all want.

Note that I haven't tested it - just theory at present.

Thoughts?



That looks like it could work very well. Making the inner set of chains in a heavier chain/smaller link also adds to the catching ability and slows discs down before they hit the pole.

I have got to say that I have seen and had many "perfect putts" come out for one reason or another not involving excess speed or missing the mark. That being said, not getting what should be a good putt is one thing, rolling away after is another. That amounts to a 2 stroke fluke penalty. I must also say that 95%, (maybe more, of the spit outs or cut throughs I have seen were not the good putts they were claimed to be by the putter, and could have been avoided by better technique. I am definitely an advocate of a small 10 ft across apron around the basket to help prevent good pukes from rolling away afterward. Shots that bounce off will probably miss the apron, and slice throughs that were too fast might also. That's okay IMO. Putting should be risky, but not too flukey IMO.



Thanks Dave, I haven't received as much support on this topic, mainly because of misunderstanding my point, and you've stated it quite well. Nice to not feel alone in this

By the way, I love fast greens. Just not hardpan sloped pin placements.

Bring back the saucer cone baskets.



Moir Park baby!!!! Could you imagine the whinning that would take place from the sport's best... :D



I've played Moir park and those basket are actually pretty straight forward, you either hit center or you miss.

Also played the Redwood Curtain in Humboldt California - tone poles in a tournament - 3 putted my first hole :p

My-Hero - love ya man - see ya soon

Good Basket (http://www.gdstour.com/gateway_titan_portable_disc_golf_basket.php)

I'm not sure I'd agree with your statement Chuck. Maybe I'm missing your point.



I think you are. I'm saying players shouldn't be forced to change putting speeds for targets with a different number and pattern of chains. At least for NTs and Championships, the baskets are now required to all be the same for one course and have inner chains.

Players do not have the knowledge to adjust their putting speeds and angles based on the chain pattern facing them because that kind of data isn't available.



I see your point. However, I think experience has a lot to do with knowing what the chances are that a putt will have an extra chance at missing based on what the target looks like. And changing the configuration of the chains can effect this.

For instance, some baskets around the area I play in have chains that at certain angles have a hole or area that exposes the full width of the pole that is a good 3"-4" tall. I've found that when I see this I putt much softer because many times I've seen the disc hit the pole and bounce right back out.

That still comes back to adjusting to the course and conditions. Having all of the same baskets doesn't really change this. Each target type will have it's own uniqueness that requires the player to learn to read the conditions.

I think the same sort of problems can be argued even if all the targets were tone poles. And I'll used the old guys as an example because I am one. :) What if a putt just grazed the tone pole but the sound of it was in a frequency that no one in the group could here? Was it a missed putt? The one putting it could see the slight deflection of the disc as it went by but maybe the others couldn't because of their angle of view. Can you imagine the arguments that could happen over that one. And then later we start the discussion on how can we improve the target.

So overall this whole discussion intrigues me. Because I really think anything that is developed will still have the potential for a spit out or miss when it looked like everything should have been perfect.

As for the data side. Dave Pelz has a ton of data on the short game for ball golf. And even going through his data one quickly learns that there is no such thing as perfect. It's all a matter of percentages and knowing what you can do to increase your odds goes a long way to lowering your scores.

I really can't imagine what a round would be like if someone in the group didn't have the opportunity to say, "Dude, you got robbed!!". :D

It all makes for good discussion and presenting ideas. That in the end can only help makes things better overall.

I've played Moir park and those basket are actually pretty straight forward, you either hit center or you miss.

Also played the Redwood Curtain in Humboldt California - tone poles in a tournament - 3 putted my first hole :p


After going back and rereading this whole thread I'm sort of surprised there hasn't been MORE discussion of tone poles. It seems like DG already has a device where good putts always succeed and bad putts always fail. No spits, cut-throughs, or bounce backs on tone poles. Of course, they do tend to be harder to hit... ;)

Also in response to Rookie_Mullet; no offence taken, I am a crappy ball golfer :D(though I still enjoy it a great deal). But I certainly wasn't saying my fast ball golf putts were GOOD putts. I was simply commenting that it is possible to have a very poor putt that is "dead-center" of the cup.

nanook

Tone poles are easier to hit than baskets. A pole 4" in diameter with a 21" inch high target area is about the same target zone for a disc thrown level, as is a basket. Most object or tone poles are at least 6"-8" in diameter. All we need to do is have a touch/motion detector inside the tube tone with a sound device that makes a good chain sound and an LED light or several around the rim that stay lit until someone touches a protected touch plate to turn them off. (Kind of like removing your disc from the basket.) This way old folks plus deaf and/or blind would have a way to know they holed out. The LEDs remaining on until touched would allow aces to be confirmed.

I like the idea that adds some electronic confirmation. The pole target removes catching issues too. I just worry about the frequency with which electronic devices fail and require maintenance more often than a metal pole with metal basket and metal chains.

I like the idea that adds some electronic confirmation. The pole target removes catching issues too. I just worry about the frequency with which electronic devices fail and require maintenance more often than a metal pole with metal basket and metal chains.



Wer don't need new devices we just need to improve the ones we have......it isn't hard to do.

BASKETS NEED TO CATCH THE PUTTS IN THE HEART AND SPIT THOSE THAT ARE NOT!!!~!!!!


You might be surprised to find that the vast majority of disc golfers in San Diego, particularly the top pros, disagree with you on that point. :)

The original DFA baskets that were installed at Emerald Isle had the heavier chains and little horizontal cables connecting the vertical chains. I never once saw a dead center putt spit out on those baskets, but you could also count on anything that was "not dead center" not going in. I didn't mind them, but the [censored] and complaining about them was enough to make Skip replace them all with DisCatchers.

Those things caught dead center putts and rejected all others. And the players hated them.

Tone poles are easier to hit than baskets. A pole 4" in diameter with a 21" inch high target area is about the same target zone for a disc thrown level, as is a basket. Most object or tone poles are at least 6"-8" in diameter.


Wow, maybe I was speaking out of turn, 'cause 6"-8" diameter tone poles are a lot bigger than the ones I have played on! All the ones I have seen are more in the 4" diameter range. Plus, I was thinking about all the putts I have seen that sneak into the side of baskets with out ever touching the chains. That kind of putt would definitely miss the tone poles I've seen.

nanook

Tone poles are easier to hit than baskets. A pole 4" in diameter with a 21" inch high target area is about the same target zone for a disc thrown level, as is a basket. Most object or tone poles are at least 6"-8" in diameter. All we need to do is have a touch/motion detector inside the tube tone with a sound device that makes a good chain sound and an LED light or several around the rim that stay lit until someone touches a protected touch plate to turn them off. (Kind of like removing your disc from the basket.) This way old folks plus deaf and/or blind would have a way to know they holed out. The LEDs remaining on until touched would allow aces to be confirmed.



So would the tone pole require a certain level of pressure to activate? That is, what if I just nudge the pole but the sensor goes off, but you nudge it slightly harder etc. etc.

I think the technology (and the little person inside each pole) would be able to tell if you touched the target part or just the pole. If you set it off, you would also be in position to reset it anyway. If you're that close, you're either not putting or so close to just tap the pole anyway.

Why not just make the current baskets catch more effeciently??????????

Velcro putters on a velcro pole...or velcro chains, too?

fly paper

how about we set the baskets on fire and the putters will melt into them on contact. no bounce outs.

Maybe it's me but I think knowing and understanding this is part of the game and art of holing out. Taking a good look at the target and judging where the chains are and where you need to put the disc in order for it part of reading a putt. I don't think there is anyway there should be a target that catches 100% of all putts just because 60% or more of the disc catches chains. What's the British Open this weekend and you'll see a lot of putts with 60% of the ball catching part of the hole only to spin out and leave a nasty combacker.



I dont think that Scooter or Myself of Sprague are talking about putts where 60% of the disc is in the chains.......To me unless your on a big hyzer putt and the disc is coming left into the chains 60% of the disc inside the chains is NOT a good putt by any means.........You are either much to far left or much to far right and in that respect it is EXACTLY like a lip out in ball golf......You putt to hard and didnt have the entire ball in the cup so you lipped out........You putt hard at the left of right side of the chains of a basket and your most likely going to get kicked out either side.........I think all of us are talking about the putts where 100% of the disc is in the chains and its kicks up vertical and blows threw the back of gets stuck on the chains all the way to the pole and stay there and gets trampolined back out at normal speed..............Those are the putts that should stick........I dont want a basket that catchs everything that tickels a chain and niether do any of the other pros in this sport..........What we do want is a basket that catch all good and great putts every time........I dont consider myself spit out of I hit left or right side and dont stay.......In my opinion that was a bad putt.......I do however consider myself spit out if I cash a 50 ft jump putt at a normal pace and it hits chains pole and comes right back in my face..........Or when I hit a nice 30 footers and get kicked vertical and blow out the back side............or even worse when I just tap in a 6 footer only to pick up my mini and have the disc almost hit me in the face because it hit chains and swung in but didnt drop only to stay on those chains and get pushed back out in my face.

100% of Disc in chains and decent pace shoudl stick every time......Thats all we want.........We just want all of our good putts to stick........We dont want to have to let a putt go perfectly only to have the basket says HAHAHAHAHA not this time pal!!!

One more thing.

Earlier in this thread did we really have an 878 rated player say that he is such a good putter that he never gets spit out???

i like most of our baskets, not trying to argue, just saying i like how they work. and the titans sound better although i havent had the chance to put on one yet. overall id rather have baskets over tone poles.

Tone poles would ruin our current Ace~Pot system as we now know it. No more '51' either. :mad:

Just say NO...to tone poles.

Tone poles would ruin our current Ace~Pot system as we now know it. No more '51' either. :mad:

Just say NO...to tone poles.



They would be better than some of the current baskets.

I don't think we need tone poles but we do need to have improved baskets.

I saw a putt from 50 plus feet hit center pole and sit on the rim of the basket for a full one count. I was 90 degrees from the putt so it looked pretty cool. A slight breeze tipped it in. I looked over at the guy that threw it with a smirk on my face he looked horrified for a split second it was great. The baskets are fine. If you watch ball golf you can't tell me the hole which is about 240% the size of the hole could be improved. A bit of luck happens.

I agree....say no to tone poles, but they are an interesting alternative...IMHO tweaking the basket would be a much better alternative....If we increase the size of the chains, would this solve everyone's problems with bouncing off the pole? Or would the heavier chains increase soft putts chance of hitting chains and falling out? What about making the size of the top of the basket smaller help to eliminate this problem?

I agree....say no to tone poles, but they are an interesting alternative...IMHO tweaking the basket would be a much better alternative....If we increase the size of the chains, would this solve everyone's problems with bouncing off the pole? Or would the heavier chains increase soft putts chance of hitting chains and falling out? What about making the size of the top of the basket smaller help to eliminate this problem?




Heavier inner chains help all kinds of putts because the soft putts aren't pushed out by the outers and the firmer putts don't go striaght to the pole.

If Climo thinks we need a better mousetrap, then we should listen. He is the best putter in the history of our sport in terms of consistency and pressure. His putting technique takes every single variable into account. His disc comes in on the right side of the pole, bottom 3rd of the basket, slight hyzer, low spin, and dropping nose down EVERY SINGLE TIME. He has such control of this that I have played rounds with him where he did not miss from 70' and in. He KNOWS what causes every single one of his misses, believe me. In HIS opinion the basket design causes a significant percent of his misses (it doesn't even have to cause a high number to be significant when you play to feed your children). How can so many who do not have the amount of technical precision to really judge the viability of our trap have such strong testimony to its effectiveness? I have my own opinions and experiences regarding the basket, but I'll trust the Champ on this one. He certainly has nothing left to gain personally by a change in basket design.

tone poles are def. not the answer.

To many people are thinking about the us rather than the growth of the sport. I think that its much more marketable and "cool" to throwing the disc into the basket rather than just throwing into some chains and picking it up off the ground.

"GOOOOONG..." or "CHING!"

You make the call...

One more thing.

Earlier in this thread did we really have an 878 rated player say that he is such a good putter that he never gets spit out???



No you didn't, you had an 878 rated player say he has never bounced off the pole. To bounce off the pole and come out of the basket you have to use a push putt... a very physical push putt. I use a lift putt, that putt tends to fall down into the basket at such an angle that it is very difficult to bounce off the pole. The point being that the right style of putting for the situation can help mitigate bounce outs.

You also heard an 878 rated player say that he understands the concept that if you hit the chains high you can get a bounce out on a soft putt. You also had an 878 rated player say that the speed, angle, and position of the the putt relative to the chains determines whether you get a bounce out or not. Are you denying these things or saying that I'm incorrect about them? If so let me refer you to a good physics text and a materials scientist who can explain momentum, angles, and reactive forces to you.

Have you ever seen Matt putt? I have, his home course is my home course, or used to be. Matt putts a bullet. He's very accurate and he's putting way too hard. Now, he claims he's softened his putt but I've not seen that yet (i.e. I've not seen him putt in some time). When I have seen him putt I've seen him bounce out frequently. He literally goes at the basket full volume from every distance (or at least he used to). Now given how his rating has climbed in the past couple of years, I'm guessing that Matt's putting style has softened. That doesn't change the possibility that what Matt wants is a basket that requires no finesse. One that will eat up power putts. That is to Matt's benefit and should surprise no one.

The concept that a skillful putt from the right distance will leave you in the basket isn't one that you have to be a 1000 rated player to understand.

I played with Matt at DGLO and he didnt seem to putt insanely hard.........Sure he takes a more direct line at the basket than I do with my hyzer style pitch putt but I didnt think many Matt should spit out alot because of his putt and due to his rating I would say either 1 of 2 things............He doesnt spit out as much as you say or think he does because if that the case it would be nearly impossible to become a 1000 rated player........Or that he has changed his putt and now nows that cut threws and bounce backs and spit outs still happen and just wants what all of us want..........A basket that catches putts at a resonable speed when 100% of your disc is in the chains. I could care less if a putt kicks out either side if im not 100% in the chains.......Thats the players fault not the baskets but when Avery Jenkins spits from 10 ft @ Warwick 1st round a a normal speed putt that hits the heart and then again on a great jump putt that was coming in maybe just a tad faster than his 10 footer something is wrong..........I mean he won Warwick by a single stroke..........What if he had lost and those 2 seemingly perfect putts that came out cost him the tourney??? I say not fair and so should you.

Bottom line is someone needs to copy the SpiderWebs setup and make it production so anyone can buy it and use it.

Is anyone out there listening the basket is already made someone just has to keep making it or reverse engineer it so everyone can putt on one!!!

If Climo thinks we need a better mousetrap, then we should listen. He is the best putter in the history of our sport in terms of consistency and pressure. His putting technique takes every single variable into account. His disc comes in on the right side of the pole, bottom 3rd of the basket, slight hyzer, low spin, and dropping nose down EVERY SINGLE TIME. He has such control of this that I have played rounds with him where he did not miss from 70' and in. He KNOWS what causes every single one of his misses, believe me. In HIS opinion the basket design causes a significant percent of his misses (it doesn't even have to cause a high number to be significant when you play to feed your children). How can so many who do not have the amount of technical precision to really judge the viability of our trap have such strong testimony to its effectiveness? I have my own opinions and experiences regarding the basket, but I'll trust the Champ on this one. He certainly has nothing left to gain personally by a change in basket design.



I think this is the best comment to why baskets should possibly change. However, you... well I guess Matt and Milz, might find that Ken's notion of what's wrong with baskets might be different than their own. I've looked at a lot of footage of Ken putting. I've seen two kinds of misses. Those off target where he hit the chains well off center and bounced out. I don't think Ken would claim those should have gone in. The other type I've seen bounce out for him were ones that bounced off the bottom of the basket and slid out (remember, Ken is not a push putter, he's a lift putter). Ken may be more interested in basket structure than chain structure.

Oh, and by the way, as with Matt, obviously, Ken would be interested in that change because, yep, it's in his best interest based on his putting style. Now, I happen to agree with Ken on this, a putt that falls into the bottom of the basket should not slide out. However, as with the chain argument, these putts slide out because of distance, angle and velocity. A better upshot with a shorter putt and better angles will still leave you in the hole.

The real question becomes what's our goal, if I am able to hit a chain should I be in? If I hit three chains should I be in? If that is your argument then you need to accept Chuck's proposal. You want a tone pole. If you hit the target at any angle under any condition you want that to be a made putt. I like the challenge of playing the basket and it's angles.

That isn't the same as saying that baskets shouldn't be better or more uniform. I do agree that there should be a standard of quality, number of chains, weight etc. But hitting the basket, even dead center shouldn't mean you're in. Hitting the basket with the right velocity, angle and position should mean you're in.

I played with Matt at DGLO and he didnt seem to putt insanely hard.........Sure he takes a more direct line at the basket than I do with my hyzer style pitch putt but I didnt think many Matt should spit out alot because of his putt and due to his rating I would say either 1 of 2 things............He doesnt spit out as much as you say or think he does because if that the case it would be nearly impossible to become a 1000 rated player........Or that he has changed his putt and now nows that cut threws and bounce backs and spit outs still happen and just wants what all of us want..........A basket that catches putts at a resonable speed when 100% of your disc is in the chains. I could care less if a putt kicks out either side if im not 100% in the chains.......Thats the players fault not the baskets but when Avery Jenkins spits from 10 ft @ Warwick 1st round a a normal speed putt that hits the heart and then again on a great jump putt that was coming in maybe just a tad faster than his 10 footer something is wrong..........I mean he won Warwick by a single stroke..........What if he had lost and those 2 seemingly perfect putts that came out cost him the tourney??? I say not fair and so should you.

Bottom line is someone needs to copy the SpiderWebs setup and make it production so anyone can buy it and use it.

Is anyone out there listening the basket is already made someone just has to keep making it or reverse engineer it so everyone can putt on one!!!



I completely disagree with you. Any player that spits a putt through from 10 feet pushed their putt way to hard. Frankly, Avery did himself. A ten foot putt is a lob. It takes an adjustment from a hard push putt to a finesse drop in. The fact that Avery, or Matt does this doesn't mean there is a problem with the basket, rather that they need to ease up a bit from 10 feet. Someone once wrote that a good putter should be able to use both a push putt and a lift putt. That someone was right.

I'll bet you 10 bucks that Ken doesn't slice through from 10 feet or even more so that the classic old time putters don't slice through. They understand that if you go hard at the basket from 10 feet you'll slice through.

Putting is a high tension moment. Going from a hard throwing motion to a soft touch requires a change in mental attitude and approach. It's a skill...

I agree....say no to tone poles, but they are an interesting alternative...IMHO tweaking the basket would be a much better alternative....If we increase the size of the chains, would this solve everyone's problems with bouncing off the pole? Or would the heavier chains increase soft putts chance of hitting chains and falling out? What about making the size of the top of the basket smaller help to eliminate this problem?




Heavier inner chains help all kinds of putts because the soft putts aren't pushed out by the outers and the firmer putts don't go striaght to the pole.



No truer statement was ever made. This will do exactly what Matt says it will. It means that you can bomb away at the basket from 10 feet out and the disc will stay in. It means you can make a weak shot that is high on the chains and it will stay in rather than punish the putter for making a weak shot. Personally, I prefer a game where you're required to make a good firm shot into the basket. Neither too hard or too soft.

If Climo thinks we need a better mousetrap, then we should listen. He is the best putter in the history of our sport in terms of consistency and pressure. His putting technique takes every single variable into account. His disc comes in on the right side of the pole, bottom 3rd of the basket, slight hyzer, low spin, and dropping nose down EVERY SINGLE TIME. He has such control of this that I have played rounds with him where he did not miss from 70' and in. He KNOWS what causes every single one of his misses, believe me. In HIS opinion the basket design causes a significant percent of his misses (it doesn't even have to cause a high number to be significant when you play to feed your children). How can so many who do not have the amount of technical precision to really judge the viability of our trap have such strong testimony to its effectiveness? I have my own opinions and experiences regarding the basket, but I'll trust the Champ on this one. He certainly has nothing left to gain personally by a change in basket design.



I think this is the best comment to why baskets should possibly change. However, you... well I guess Matt and Milz, might find that Ken's notion of what's wrong with baskets might be different than their own. I've looked at a lot of footage of Ken putting. I've seen two kinds of misses. Those off target where he hit the chains well off center and bounced out. I don't think Ken would claim those should have gone in. The other type I've seen bounce out for him were ones that bounced off the bottom of the basket and slid out (remember, Ken is not a push putter, he's a lift putter). Ken may be more interested in basket structure than chain structure.

Oh, and by the way, as with Matt, obviously, Ken would be interested in that change because, yep, it's in his best interest based on his putting style. Now, I happen to agree with Ken on this, a putt that falls into the bottom of the basket should not slide out. However, as with the chain argument, these putts slide out because of distance, angle and velocity. A better upshot with a shorter putt and better angles will still leave you in the hole.

The real question becomes what's our goal, if I am able to hit a chain should I be in? If I hit three chains should I be in? If that is your argument then you need to accept Chuck's proposal. You want a tone pole. If you hit the target at any angle under any condition you want that to be a made putt. I like the challenge of playing the basket and it's angles.

That isn't the same as saying that baskets shouldn't be better or more uniform. I do agree that there should be a standard of quality, number of chains, weight etc. But hitting the basket, even dead center shouldn't mean you're in. Hitting the basket with the right velocity, angle and position should mean you're in.



I don't think that Kenny would consider either of the putting scenarios that you mentioned to be basket flaw. He knows how the disc is going to behave in the bottom of the basket. He may make a face when this happens, but I'm pretty sure that he is talking about cut throughs and the occasional bounce out off the pole. Also, about changes benefiting Kenny's personal syle: Of his 12 world championships, the early ones I'm pretty sure played on baskets shoddy by today's standards, and Kenny has tweaked his putting style intentionally to give him the highest percentage of makes on most pole holes.

I agree....say no to tone poles, but they are an interesting alternative...IMHO tweaking the basket would be a much better alternative....If we increase the size of the chains, would this solve everyone's problems with bouncing off the pole? Or would the heavier chains increase soft putts chance of hitting chains and falling out? What about making the size of the top of the basket smaller help to eliminate this problem?




Heavier inner chains help all kinds of putts because the soft putts aren't pushed out by the outers and the firmer putts don't go striaght to the pole.



No truer statement was ever made. This will do exactly what Matt says it will. It means that you can bomb away at the basket from 10 feet out and the disc will stay in. It means you can make a weak shot that is high on the chains and it will stay in rather than punish the putter for making a weak shot. Personally, I prefer a game where you're required to make a good firm shot into the basket. Neither too hard or too soft.




Lyle I would appreciate it if you would shut up! I don't want a baskets that catches 100MPH putts I just want one that catches the putts in the heart at a reasonable speeds consistantly!

If you think I statred this thread because of me you are nuts because I started it after talking to a lot of Pros at KCWO about what needs to be done to improve the baskets.

Lyle, Heavier inner sets would do nothing to keep the high soft putts in it would only decrease the amount of cutthroughs/bounce outs.

I agree....say no to tone poles, but they are an interesting alternative...IMHO tweaking the basket would be a much better alternative....If we increase the size of the chains, would this solve everyone's problems with bouncing off the pole? Or would the heavier chains increase soft putts chance of hitting chains and falling out? What about making the size of the top of the basket smaller help to eliminate this problem?




Heavier inner chains help all kinds of putts because the soft putts aren't pushed out by the outers and the firmer putts don't go striaght to the pole.



No truer statement was ever made. This will do exactly what Matt says it will. It means that you can bomb away at the basket from 10 feet out and the disc will stay in. It means you can make a weak shot that is high on the chains and it will stay in rather than punish the putter for making a weak shot. Personally, I prefer a game where you're required to make a good firm shot into the basket. Neither too hard or too soft.




Lyle I would appreciate it if you would shut up! I don't want a baskets that catches 100MPH putts I just want one that catches the putts in the heart at a reasonable speeds consistantly!

If you think I statred this thread because of me you are nuts because I started it after talking to a lot of Pros at KCWO about what needs to be done to improve the baskets.

Lyle, Heavier inner sets would do nothing to keep the high soft putts in it would only decrease the amount of cutthroughs/bounce outs.



FIGHT!!! FIGHT!!! FIGHT!!! KICK HIS ***** C-BASS!!

FIGHT!!! FIGHT!!! FIGHT!!! KICK HIS ***** C-BASS!!



http://amigry.moon-station.us/gryhtm/mortal_kombat2_fight.png

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/brycdavis/mortal_kombat2_fight.png

When I talked with Climo and Feldberg about this just before the Majestic, I think both were more concerned about the vertical slide thrus than bounce backs. I don't think anyone likes bounce backs, but they are more like a 'too fast putt' missed in ball golf. No one can really judge what the right amount of rebound effect should be to be "fair" on our baskets.

When I talked with Climo and Feldberg about this just before the Majestic, I think both were more concerned about the vertical slide thrus than bounce backs. I don't think anyone likes bounce backs, but they are more like a 'too fast putt' missed in ball golf. No one can really judge what the right amount of rebound effect should be to be "fair" on our baskets.



The only baskets I see a lot of slide throughs on is the Mach 3's and the disc goes through the gap in the high right and left portion of the basket. When I have one of those I don't really fret because I do know that is a weak spot on the basket and it was off center anyway.

I completely disagree with you. Any player that spits a putt through from 10 feet pushed their putt way to hard. Frankly, Avery did himself. A ten foot putt is a lob. It takes an adjustment from a hard push putt to a finesse drop in. The fact that Avery, or Matt does this doesn't mean there is a problem with the basket, rather that they need to ease up a bit from 10 feet. Someone once wrote that a good putter should be able to use both a push putt and a lift putt. That someone was right.

I'll bet you 10 bucks that Ken doesn't slice through from 10 feet or even more so that the classic old time putters don't slice through. They understand that if you go hard at the basket from 10 feet you'll slice through.

Putting is a high tension moment. Going from a hard throwing motion to a soft touch requires a change in mental attitude and approach. It's a skill...




Im not going to argue with you because you obviously dont know what your talking about........The putt was perfect and it cut threw and out the back.......All we want are putts that are 100% in side the target at a reasonable height and speed to stick.....Hell im all for making the basket smaller if its going to catch all the putts that are 100% inside it at a reasonable height and speed!!!

We dont want baskets that catch everything.........We want baskets that catch everything that is 100% inside the target at a decent height and rate of speed!!! Thats all!!!

And if anyone out there is listening this basket already exists!!! So I dont understand why someone doesnt copy it for high level tournaments!!! Heck the PDGA could just have 50 of them made and install them at every SuperTour NT and Major we have during the season and then pull them when the tournament is over!!! Then there will be NO fuss about oh we had to putt on Mach 3s last weekend and this weekend Chainstars which love to spit dead center putts but catch EVERYTHING that hits the pro side........Or thank god we are putting on 24 Chain Discatchers this week.......It will be the same basket at every high level important tournament everywhere........Then and only then can someone say well they just need to learn to putt better and their putts will stick.........Because at that time you will be putting on the same basket all the time and actually be able to learn how and when and where it will catch what putts.........But untill that happens what is every pro supposed to do??? Get 1 of every single basket ever made and figure out where they are putting on the next week and practice that basket right before that tournament??? Only to show up and throw a seemingly perfect putt that slides threw the back???

If you stand directly looking at a Mach 3 with the number plate facing you, you can very clear see two holes in the chains just left and right of center.

That is not good.

OK, another suggestion for alternative chain arrangements that I thought of today.. another chain arrangement (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tjm_22/845372742/)

There is only the outer sets shown - the inners could be vertical or offset to the outer set.
Note that this only uses 5 fixing points at the top and is meant to show the concept, not be a fully detailed chain arrangement. 9, 11, 13 or 15 would be better.
Again only theory at present, but something like this may be an answer to the problem.
Can you see any way of a disc at any angle getting through that layout from front to back without deflecting off something?
It also looks like it will work well for accurate on-line putts, & deflect ones off to the side, out.

I guess it depends upon what the players want.
Unfortunately up until now, it has been what the manufacturer's have been willing / able to give us.
And that seems to have stemmed from who owned the patents. (let's not get started on Intellectual Property)

Any thoughts?

Spiderwebs are made by Allen Pier in Peru, Indiana. He makes them in his shop during the winter months. I frequently play on these baskets and they are my favorite. They are very consistent catchers, but I have had dead center putts hit the ring on the innermost set of chains and bounce right back out - proper speed, heighth and dead center on the pole. This is a fairly rare occurence, but it shows that even well-designed baskets have flaws. I will say that I can not recall ever having a cut-through on a Spiderweb.

I dislike the Mach2New baskets the most. One of my local courses has them - they are a less expensive permanent model! Cut-throughs, spit outs - I have experienced all of these during a single tournament round on the Mach2New baskets - very frustrating.

so dont hit there. there is always a way to make a putt stick. just cuz yours cut thru or spit back and you cant figure out the physics doesnt mean your putt was "perfect". whats next, indoor courses so the wind doesnt wobble the disc?

so dont hit there. there is always a way to make a putt stick. just cuz yours cut thru or spit back and you cant figure out the physics doesnt mean your putt was "perfect". whats next, indoor courses so the wind doesnt wobble the disc?



please find in my post where I said I have lots of cut throughs on Mach 3's or anything like that.

I very very rarely have cut throughs or bounce backs b/c I putt a straddle lob putt.

I really thinkg improving the baskets would hurt me as a player b/c I am one of the better putters in my area and rarely get those spits and cuts and if they were improved, more players would be better putters b/c of the lowered ammount spits and cuts. Improving the baskets in no way benefits me. However, it needs to be done.

I will say that I have the least problems with double chained disccathers and while it sounds like other baskets are better, that disccather is probably the best basket on the market that is seen on courses everywhere.

In the DGW interview, Climo said the one thing he'd like to see improved is the basket because too often a good putt doesn't stick. When you look at it from Climo's perspective, one putt can mean the difference between a lot of income. Naturally, the champ wants skill not luck to be the determining factor.

It is easy to make the argument like Pat and Lyle do (do they really agree on something? :eek: ) that a putt that doesn't stick by definition was not a good putt.

but when a very good putt bounces out or spits through, it points to improving the basket. it's the 21st century people. lets improve the d@m thing and decrease it's size if we have to...

I will say that I have the least problems with double chained disccathers and while it sounds like other baskets are better, that disccather is probably the best basket on the market that is seen on courses everywhere.


Word.

robert, you pointed out the gap in the chains. i was saying to anyone who was worried about that gap, to simply not hit there.

decreasing the size is gonna add to the spitout problem, not solve it.

as far as skill v. luck - prove, really prove, that the putt laying on the ground "should" have stuck. when you can do that, we'll have something actionable.

I have actually use the cross over type chain arrangement for the inner chains on my instep. I do not have cut throughs after adding those.

The one problem with mesh type arrangements of chains is that their resistance to movement from the additional weight can cause more putts to bounce back. If you look back through the various patents, the top assembly that allowed sliding chains was key in improving the ability of a target to catch. This is the problem with chain arrangement on the instep. The top assembly has a simple circle to hold the chains which has no give. In addition, the bottoms of the chains are connected in such a way that they give less that ones attached with a ring at the bottom. If you want try a mesh arrangement, lighter weight chains will need to be used. This then starts getting into making sure they are still durable.

Keep in mind that not everyone throws max weight putters. A target needs to handle weights between 95g to 180g.

as far as skill v. luck - prove, really prove, that the putt laying on the ground "should" have stuck. when you can do that, we'll have something actionable.



Prove, really prove that the chain pattern over the 30 degree angle of repetition catches the same. Or provide the data that shows how to play the chain pattern from different angles to not have slide thrus and make sure players can actually see what angle the pattern is at so they can adjust accordingly.

all the baskets at highbridge are mach 3's right chuck?

all the baskets at highbridge are mach 3's right chuck?



Yeah but they are the newer ones and catch pretty decent.

decreasing the size is gonna add to the spitout problem, not solve it.





You must think we are talking about spits on putts that aren't that good then! If you decrease the target size but have it catch the shots that hit the target how will that increase spits? If you don't hit 100% in the chains you shouldn't stick. If you do hit 100% on a reasonable pace in the chains it should stick ,

I agree....say no to tone poles, but they are an interesting alternative...IMHO tweaking the basket would be a much better alternative....If we increase the size of the chains, would this solve everyone's problems with bouncing off the pole? Or would the heavier chains increase soft putts chance of hitting chains and falling out? What about making the size of the top of the basket smaller help to eliminate this problem?




Heavier inner chains help all kinds of putts because the soft putts aren't pushed out by the outers and the firmer putts don't go striaght to the pole.



No truer statement was ever made. This will do exactly what Matt says it will. It means that you can bomb away at the basket from 10 feet out and the disc will stay in. It means you can make a weak shot that is high on the chains and it will stay in rather than punish the putter for making a weak shot. Personally, I prefer a game where you're required to make a good firm shot into the basket. Neither too hard or too soft.




Lyle I would appreciate it if you would shut up! I don't want a baskets that catches 100MPH putts I just want one that catches the putts in the heart at a reasonable speeds consistantly!

If you think I statred this thread because of me you are nuts because I started it after talking to a lot of Pros at KCWO about what needs to be done to improve the baskets.

Lyle, Heavier inner sets would do nothing to keep the high soft putts in it would only decrease the amount of cutthroughs/bounce outs.



:D:D:D

No really! WoW!

[droll voice on] Funny how no baskets are sufficient except two, one made by your sponsor... [droll voice off]

Matt, it seems that every time you bring up an important issue to "make" the sport better it relates to you.

Matt, you're being overly sensitive. It is a rare exception that comes on and says "hey do this, it's going to hose me but do it anyway." There's nothing wrong with taking a position that benefits yourself.

As for my shutting up, so what you're saying is you want a world in which you're able to spout off but no one should question you. Well, when you get to President, apparently you can have that. Until then you're stuck with me! Sorry... :(

I agree....say no to tone poles, but they are an interesting alternative...IMHO tweaking the basket would be a much better alternative....If we increase the size of the chains, would this solve everyone's problems with bouncing off the pole? Or would the heavier chains increase soft putts chance of hitting chains and falling out? What about making the size of the top of the basket smaller help to eliminate this problem?




Heavier inner chains help all kinds of putts because the soft putts aren't pushed out by the outers and the firmer putts don't go striaght to the pole.



No truer statement was ever made. This will do exactly what Matt says it will. It means that you can bomb away at the basket from 10 feet out and the disc will stay in. It means you can make a weak shot that is high on the chains and it will stay in rather than punish the putter for making a weak shot. Personally, I prefer a game where you're required to make a good firm shot into the basket. Neither too hard or too soft.




Lyle I would appreciate it if you would shut up! I don't want a baskets that catches 100MPH putts I just want one that catches the putts in the heart at a reasonable speeds consistantly!

If you think I statred this thread because of me you are nuts because I started it after talking to a lot of Pros at KCWO about what needs to be done to improve the baskets.

Lyle, Heavier inner sets would do nothing to keep the high soft putts in it would only decrease the amount of cutthroughs/bounce outs.



:D:D:D

No really! WoW!

[droll voice on] Funny how no baskets are sufficient except two, one made by your sponsor... [droll voice off]

Matt, it seems that every time you bring up an important issue to "make" the sport better it relates to you.

Matt, you're being overly sensitive. It is a rare exception that comes on and says "hey do this, it's going to hose me but do it anyway." There's nothing wrong with taking a position that benefits yourself.

As for my shutting up, so what you're saying is you want a world in which you're able to spout off but no one should question you. Well, when you get to President, apparently you can have that. Until then you're stuck with me! Sorry... :(



<font color="blue"> personal attack deleted</font>

When I talked with Climo and Feldberg about this just before the Majestic, I think both were more concerned about the vertical slide thrus than bounce backs. I don't think anyone likes bounce backs, but they are more like a 'too fast putt' missed in ball golf. No one can really judge what the right amount of rebound effect should be to be "fair" on our baskets.



The only baskets I see a lot of slide throughs on is the Mach 3's and the disc goes through the gap in the high right and left portion of the basket. When I have one of those I don't really fret because I do know that is a weak spot on the basket and it was off center anyway.



But wait Matt, this isn't the same issue you have with baskets. Kenny is concerned about exactly what I predicted he would be concerned about. An issue that occurs in part because of his putting style. Similarly to the possibility that some of your issues occur due to your putting style.

I completely disagree with you. Any player that spits a putt through from 10 feet pushed their putt way to hard. Frankly, Avery did himself. A ten foot putt is a lob. It takes an adjustment from a hard push putt to a finesse drop in. The fact that Avery, or Matt does this doesn't mean there is a problem with the basket, rather that they need to ease up a bit from 10 feet. Someone once wrote that a good putter should be able to use both a push putt and a lift putt. That someone was right.

I'll bet you 10 bucks that Ken doesn't slice through from 10 feet or even more so that the classic old time putters don't slice through. They understand that if you go hard at the basket from 10 feet you'll slice through.

Putting is a high tension moment. Going from a hard throwing motion to a soft touch requires a change in mental attitude and approach. It's a skill...




Im not going to argue with you because you obviously dont know what your talking about........The putt was perfect and it cut threw and out the back.......All we want are putts that are 100% in side the target at a reasonable height and speed to stick.....Hell im all for making the basket smaller if its going to catch all the putts that are 100% inside it at a reasonable height and speed!!!

We dont want baskets that catch everything.........We want baskets that catch everything that is 100% inside the target at a decent height and rate of speed!!! Thats all!!!

And if anyone out there is listening this basket already exists!!! So I dont understand why someone doesnt copy it for high level tournaments!!! Heck the PDGA could just have 50 of them made and install them at every SuperTour NT and Major we have during the season and then pull them when the tournament is over!!! Then there will be NO fuss about oh we had to putt on Mach 3s last weekend and this weekend Chainstars which love to spit dead center putts but catch EVERYTHING that hits the pro side........Or thank god we are putting on 24 Chain Discatchers this week.......It will be the same basket at every high level important tournament everywhere........Then and only then can someone say well they just need to learn to putt better and their putts will stick.........Because at that time you will be putting on the same basket all the time and actually be able to learn how and when and where it will catch what putts.........But untill that happens what is every pro supposed to do??? Get 1 of every single basket ever made and figure out where they are putting on the next week and practice that basket right before that tournament??? Only to show up and throw a seemingly perfect putt that slides threw the back???





Go back and read my post. If Avery cut through the chains from 10 feet he putted way to hard. The fact that you think there is an issue is based on the desire that the basket should catch whatever you throw at it. Again, I'm betting if you count the number of cut throughs that Kenny has vs. other "top" Pros, you'll find a difference.

Now, let's review a little history. Even though as you pointed out I don't know any thing because I'm not a 1000 rated player, when Ed H. developed the pole hole, his stated goal was that he felt we should be more able to putt as we throw. That is, he felt the catching device should not require a lob into the basket per say. However, a device that can readily catch any thing thrown at it is as easy to develop as a pole hole. A vertical hoop with a net for example, and yet that isn't what Ed made. I'm guessing his notion was a compromise. Something that allowed you to go harder at the basket with some discretion.

As for your idea that the overall quality of baskets could be improved by going to a better made more consistent basket. I agree. Good idea, I think everyone would agree. However, 50 x $500 is $25,000. We already have plenty of carping going on about the high cost of the PDGA and our fees. That $25,000 is just the cost of the baskets, the shipping to and from NT events would at least double the price. While the idea isn't a bad one, I'm guessing it is cost prohibitive.

Oh great, a teenager thinks I'm a moron. Man, my feelings are so hurt. :D

As of yet Matt, you've not addressed one of the issues I've raised about your argument and possible weaknesses in it. On the other hand I've pointed out numerous flaws with your position. I'm guessing in that high school you got out of, that they had a debate class. When I took high school debate they pointed out that you have to answer the other guy's points before you can call him a moron. Of course etiquette, would tell one that just because someone disagrees with you isn't a good reason to call them names. :D In fact, it sort of suggests that you can't answer those charges so you're resorting to name calling. I know you can do way better than that.

all the baskets at highbridge are mach 3's right chuck?



We got new Innova Discatchers for the Gold course as part of the Worlds fundraising. The other three courses have DGA Mach IIIs with blue ones on Blueberry, "hunter gold" (orange) on the special Woodland Bear layout for Worlds and natural gray ones on Granite.

$500 a basket? There are baskets on the Market that cost $350 and catch pretty darn well. Then again there are $450 baskets that haven't been improved in 15 years. :D

$500 a basket? There are baskets on the Market that cost $350 and catch pretty darn well. Then again there are $450 baskets that haven't been improved in 15 years. :D



There is no question that the variability in basket types is not good. I'd definitely agree with a tighter set of rules on how baskets should be produced. The problem is, as you well know, that maintaining that is rough. Look at the Willy, every time they mow out there the baskets take a beating. As long as that happens, you're never going to have consistency.

Given that, I would argue that for NTs Chuck is correct. I'd develop an easy to move and install Tone Pole that you could ship to every NT (AKA Milz' suggestion) and you'd have a tough to hit much more consistent target. As has been pointed out, I think that detracts from the game but it would be fairer.

as far as skill v. luck - prove, really prove, that the putt laying on the ground "should" have stuck. when you can do that, we'll have something actionable.



Prove, really prove that the chain pattern over the 30 degree angle of repetition catches the same. Or provide the data that shows how to play the chain pattern from different angles to not have slide thrus and make sure players can actually see what angle the pattern is at so they can adjust accordingly.

as far as proving the 30 degree angle of repitition catches the same, i dont need to cuz i'm not the one claiming a problem exists. proof is the burden of those who feel it is messed up.

providing the data that shows how to best attack a given basket would be a worthy exercise. i would think that the top pros would already be doign that sort of thing, in order to finetune their game for a particular course. kinda like top pro ball golfers look at every aspect of the green prior to an event.

In the DGW interview, Climo said the one thing he'd like to see improved is the basket because too often a good putt doesn't stick. When you look at it from Climo's perspective, one putt can mean the difference between a lot of income. Naturally, the champ wants skill not luck to be the determining factor.

It is easy to make the argument like Pat and Lyle do (do they really agree on something? :eek: ) that a putt that doesn't stick by definition was not a good putt.

but when a very good putt bounces out or spits through, it points to improving the basket. it's the 21st century people. lets improve the d@m thing and decrease it's size if we have to...



Pat and I agree all the time, we just don't let anyone know about it. :D

I've watched Pat play and Pat has an intense focus on skill IMO. I appreciate that. I may not often agree with Pat but I acknowledge his game and his intelligence.

I don't remember the name but one of the old time players was reported to be able to drop shots through a basketball net consistently from half court. That is skill!

I don't remember the name but one of the old time players was reported to be able to drop shots through a basketball net consistently from half court. That is skill!



Crazy John Brooks did that in exhibitions. He banked it off the backboard in the video clip I saw.

OK, OK.....I'll settle the debate with a simple solution! :eek:

Rubber chains baby!!! :D:p :D

as far as proving the 30 degree angle of repitition catches the same, i dont need to cuz i'm not the one claiming a problem exists. proof is the burden of those who feel it is messed up.




Since the sanctioning body of our sport has no standards for basket deflectors, let alone the requirement for them, why would manufacturers have to worry about proving their deflectors are radially fair for catching percentage at all angles? If we want to eliminate bouncebacks and slide thrus for competition, the obvious solution is to remove the chains, cut down the center pipes to basket bottom level and just have open baskets. No bounce backs (maybe bounce outs), no slide thrus and amazingly enough, all existing baskets would still be PDGA approved if this was done. Imagine how much cheaper baskets would be to get courses installed with a basket that's more fair, almost like a ball golf hole. Perhaps we should test this at Worlds on a course...

the wisdom of disc golf's founders did not include a concern that "deflectors are radially fair for catching percentage at all angles". we must honor their foresight.

I'd say street light poles are radially fair and most tree trunks in their marked target areas are closer to round with more consistent in/out performance than the vagaries of chain devices from different angles. Now park benches are another animal. You can get blow thrus without touching the bench if the back and seat aren't connected. However, the wisdom of our early disc golf TDs in Minnesota made a rule that allowed shots that go between them and don't touch the seat or back to count as "In." So, I'd say the founders did a better job for fair targets with what they had versus the "advances" that have been made.

understanding that the founders ideas, while worthy of great honor and tribute, can still be improved will be critical to resolving the disc definition issues. i'm glad you have an open mind.

I think a precept for all sports should be to have overall guiding principles and guidelines with a wide range of creativity operating within the bounds of these principles such as discs being round on the outside diameter. Within that particular principle, let the imagination of inventors go wild to make discs more versatile and better. I think the guiding principle for Ed on baskets was to make them work like object targets such as trees where they have a cylindrical target area. That's why DROTs don't count and Mach baskets don't allow discs to drop thru the top.

The fact we don't have a guideline for our current basket that defines a cylindrical target area is rather surprising on one hand considering the history of our sport. On the other hand, part of that history was the series of basket patents that have now expired. I suspect that defining the cylinder would have been a touchier issue several years ago with patent protection on chain patterns still active. But now, it's something to be pursued and I suspect patentable ideas in that area might still be available, even if they might be the less constraining design patents.

I think there have been a lot of great comments and suggestions in this thread.
Any kind of change/improvement is going to take time. Someone has just got to step up and make the ideas/improvements happen. Only time will tell if it can be done well enough to change courses that are already in existence and improve future courses.
In the mean time ... we've got what we have, and for most of us, it's all good.
I will say that although I don't get to play on courses often that have Gateway Titans installed ... they are probably the best catching basket I have experienced.

Go back and read my post. If Avery cut through the chains from 10 feet he putted way to hard. The fact that you think there is an issue is based on the desire that the basket should catch whatever you throw at it. Again, I'm betting if you count the number of cut throughs that Kenny has vs. other "top" Pros, you'll find a difference.

Now, let's review a little history. Even though as you pointed out I don't know any thing because I'm not a 1000 rated player, when Ed H. developed the pole hole, his stated goal was that he felt we should be more able to putt as we throw. That is, he felt the catching device should not require a lob into the basket per say. However, a device that can readily catch any thing thrown at it is as easy to develop as a pole hole. A vertical hoop with a net for example, and yet that isn't what Ed made. I'm guessing his notion was a compromise. Something that allowed you to go harder at the basket with some discretion.

As for your idea that the overall quality of baskets could be improved by going to a better made more consistent basket. I agree. Good idea, I think everyone would agree. However, 50 x $500 is $25,000. We already have plenty of carping going on about the high cost of the PDGA and our fees. That $25,000 is just the cost of the baskets, the shipping to and from NT events would at least double the price. While the idea isn't a bad one, I'm guessing it is cost prohibitive.



Listen to what im telling you........I was there I watched the putt and by no means was it to hard............All his other putts were almost the exact same speed and they stuck........His jump putt was coming in nice and soft as well and it hit 100% in the chains at a reasonable height and it got turned vertical and slid out the back. It was a putt that should be caught every time.........100% in the chains at a reasonable speed and height........Thats all we are asking for............A basket that catches 100% of the putts that are 100% in the chains at a reasonable height and speed!!! Nothing more nothing less.........And if anyone is still listening this basket already exists!!! And im sure Discraft or Innova would be willing to donate 27 baskets to the PDGA if they would cart them around to the high level tournaments. And im sure at the high level tournaments there would be some people who would be willing to help install them. Just and idea but I do understand it would be quite costly to transport them to and from all the high level tournaments.

Pat and Lyle do (do they really agree on something? :eek: )



Pat and I agree all the time, we just don't let anyone know about it. :D

I've watched Pat play and Pat has an intense focus on skill IMO. I appreciate that. I may not often agree with Pat but I acknowledge his game and his intelligence.




wow, reading that created more disbelief than a soft putt that hits low and bounces out. :eek:

let's just tweak the design a little and reduce the bounce outs and spit thrus that seem good. :p while we're at it, a dome on top to minimize DROT's would be nice and would act like a rain guard for the chain assembly. it could also have the hole number on it and be color coded (a la Highbridge)

what pat are we talking about here?

Oh and another thing.........If this sport every does get on TV how are we going to explain to the viewers why the players are putting on different baskets every weekend???

I mean you dont see the guys on the PGA putting into bigger and smaller cups depending on what course they are playing.

same way baseball does when viewers ask why baseball fields are all different sizes and shapes.

you dont hear major leaguers saying "oh, that would have been a roundtripper if i had hit it a the Ballpark" its part of the charm.

However, the equipment itself isn't different, only the "course" they are playing on. The distance between bases is the same, they are the same size, home plate is the same size, they use the same ball specs. It's not like someone could say they would have beat out that infield hit if they played in the Cleveland stadium where it's only 57 feet to first base.

However, the equipment itself isn't different, only the "course" they are playing on. The distance between bases is the same, they are the same size, home plate is the same size, they use the same ball specs. It's not like someone could say they would have beat out that infield hit if they played in the Cleveland stadium where it's only 57 feet to first base.



Indeed...its Disc golf, not base-ball-golf Not such a good comparison to baseball.

the distances to the wall are different, arent they? the outcome of the same hit is different in different ballparks. if you sanitize and mandate every last little detail, golf will lose its meaning as a metaphor for life and "the journey".

the distances to the wall are different, arent they? the outcome of the same hit is different in different ballparks. if you sanitize and mandate every last little detail, golf will lose its meaning as a metaphor for life and "the journey".



The distances to the wall in baseball are like the distances to the baskets in Disc Golf..........The same length drive on one hole (hit in one ballpark) isnt anywhere near as beneficial as it is on the next hole.

It doesnt lose its meaning it loses in frustration of how much luck is involved and makes "the journey" as you call it more enjoyable even though its still just has hard, but a little less lucky!!!

Let's be practical. 100% sounds a lot like perfection, so let's back it down to 99%. How many spit outs (%) do you all have now? I seriously doubt it is 1/10 (just my humble opinion), so 90%+ are made/stick. What is a reasonable percetage of putts that DO NOT stick?
I realize that all strokes count...and one stroke can really make a difference cash-wise. And so is meeting these #s in the middle somewhere, wherever that is.

it should be 100% There is so much luck involved in our game as it is if you get that putter 100% in the chains at a reasonable height and speed it should stick every single time.

the problem is that you cant identify the differences in the basket that create the difference between 99.9% and 100.0%. no matter what, someone is gonna say "that shoulda stuck"

I agree that it would be nice to have a standardized basket by the PDGA for all NT and ST events...maybe even have the players vote on it every couple years of which to use. Then it would create some serious R &amp; D (aka more $) focus by the major basket manufacturers to win that vote.

But on a more realistic note to all the whiny players out there...quit putting hyzer!!!! I know for a fact 8 of 10 people I hear whine about this issue are putting hyzer and as a result you increase your percentage of a spitout every degree it is more hyzer than straight. The only issue then is hitting the poles on some of the older baskets...and being a newer sport; sometimes those old baskets are all we have, it happens. But the new discatchers, Titan, and Machs don't have that problem just the hyzer putt issue. That is also why Ken made that comment....he putts slightly hyzer

I agree that it would be nice to have a standardized basket by the PDGA for all NT and ST events...maybe even have the players vote on it every couple years of which to use. Then it would create some serious R &amp; D (aka more $) focus by the major basket manufacturers to win that vote.

But on a more realistic note to all the whiny players out there...quit putting hyzer!!!! I know for a fact 8 of 10 people I hear whine about this issue are putting hyzer and as a result you increase your percentage of a spitout every degree it is more hyzer than straight. The only issue then is hitting the poles on some of the older baskets...and being a newer sport; sometimes those old baskets are all we have, it happens. But the new discatchers, Titan, and Machs don't have that problem just the hyzer putt issue. That is also why Ken made that comment....he putts slightly hyzer



Almost ALL the great putters in the sport putt hyzer.........Its a more consistant more replicable putt.........Its stays on a better line and unless its windy is a much more consistant putt than a flat putt............Plus hyzer putts tend to hit the chains a a lower rate or speed since they are hyzering and dying into the heart of the basket rather than being forced flat at a higher rate of speed..........Either way if your 100% in the basket at a reasonable height and rate of speed it should stick..........Thats the point........Flat, Hyzer, Anhyzer, Upsidedown or whatever.........If its 100% in at a reasonable speed and height it should stay!!!

Thats all I or anyone else is saying or asking for and in this day and age it should not be that hard to accomplish or produce.

A chain basket is a mechanical device. As such, it is prone to some malfunction and imperfection. You're never going to have 100% infallibility.

the problem is that you cant identify the differences in the basket that create the difference between 99.9% and 100.0%. no matter what, someone is gonna say "that shoulda stuck"



That's funny
and true

I say we make all baskets identical, and nobody gets to play until they are all the same.
We should put little chain swastikas on them. ;)

Almost ALL the great putters in the sport putt hyzer...



All the Open World Champions except Ken Climo, Barry Schultz and maybe John Ahart are NOT hyzer putters!!! Des and Juliana are not hyzer putters either.

The rest of what you said about hyzer putting is basically true.

OK, OK.....I'll settle the debate with a simple solution! :eek:

Rubber chains baby!!! :D:p :D



That only works if you use whips baby!

Almost ALL the great putters in the sport putt hyzer...



All the Open World Champions except Ken Climo, Barry Schultz and maybe John Ahart are NOT hyzer putters!!! Des and Juliana are not hyzer putters either.

The rest of what you said about hyzer putting is basically true.



I'm not sure Barry would qualify as a "great" putter anyway. :D

I'm not sure Barry would qualify as a "great" putter anyway.




I don't think you can win a World Championship unless you have a solid putting game.

I'm not sure Barry would qualify as a "great" putter anyway.




I don't think you can win a World Championship unless you have a solid putting game.



Too true, but in every tournament where I've ever watched him play, he's muffed at least one gimme putt. Most notably in last year's USDGC where he lipped out a 2 footer, much to his embarrassment. On the other hand, if pushed I would admit to splitting hairs. :D

Barry is a great putter, just not on the list of elite putters.

Barry is a great putter, just not on the list of elite putters.



exactly what I was about to say. I can think of about 10-15 people I would put before him off the top of my head

A chain basket is a mechanical device. As such, it is prone to some malfunction and imperfection. You're never going to have 100% infallibility.



okay -- 100% is out -- but that's no excuse to throw in the towel on improving functionality :p

If you think I statred this thread because of me you are nuts because I started it after talking to a lot of Pros at KCWO about what needs to be done to improve the baskets.



I say hogwash. I think this thread has everything to do with the fact that Matt's putting style is to rifle it in at 100 mph. He tacos Wizards on the pole. Of course his putts knife through or bounce out.

Don't let him fool you, folks. This is about a guy who putts full bore.

If you think I statred this thread because of me you are nuts because I started it after talking to a lot of Pros at KCWO about what needs to be done to improve the baskets.



I say hogwash. I think this thread has everything to do with the fact that Matt's putting style is to rifle it in at 100 mph. He tacos Wizards on the pole. Of course his putts knife through or bounce out.

Don't let him fool you, folks. This is about a guy who putts full bore.



That's not a provocative post or anything... :eek:

Matt, you should post a link to a video of you putting so we can all decide for ourselves if you putt too hard. ;)

If you think I statred this thread because of me you are nuts because I started it after talking to a lot of Pros at KCWO about what needs to be done to improve the baskets.



I say hogwash. I think this thread has everything to do with the fact that Matt's putting style is to rifle it in at 100 mph. He tacos Wizards on the pole. Of course his putts knife through or bounce out.

Don't let him fool you, folks. This is about a guy who putts full bore.



That's not a provocative post or anything... :eek:

Matt, you should post a link to a video of you putting so we can all decide for ourselves if you putt too hard. ;)



Good idea! I'll try to get some at worlds.

Are the Discatchers at USDGC different than normal Discatchers? I was told these catch all the dead center putts and was also told they were different.

You're [censored] about a JUMP PUTT that slid through?

So, it was from at least 33 feet. Given unknowns such as wind, weight of the disc thrown, angle of release, it would be a good bet you still can't see that things happen.

As an argument for reforming basket design, this really doesn't cut through...or, maybe it DOES cut through, and not count.


Listen to what im telling you........I was there I watched the putt and by no means was it to hard............All his other putts were almost the exact same speed and they stuck........His jump putt was coming in nice and soft as well and it hit 100% in the chains at a reasonable height and it got turned vertical and slid out the back. It was a putt that should be caught every time..

I had a vertical slidethrough today that stuck me at -16 VS -17. Its all good though since its part of the game. :o

At least most baskets are better than this...

Best Basket Ever (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbF-e2boXlg)

At least most baskets are better than this...

Best Basket Ever (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbF-e2boXlg)



That is hilarious!!!! :D

Certainly a good argument for Tone poles...

I think this thread has everything to do with the fact that Matt's putting style is to rifle it in at 100 mph. He tacos Wizards on the pole. Of course his putts knife through or bounce out.



if that's your take on this thread, to what do you attribute Ken Climo's statement that the thing he would most like to see improved about our sport is that the targets should catch a higher percentage of quality putts? (see Ken Climo interview from the most recent DGW magazine)

From what I saw, Matt doesn't putt that hard. We have a guy here that putts extremely hard. If he airballs a 20 footer he usually ends up being 20-30 from the basket. I guess he likes to make a lot of noise when he sinks one.

I played with Matt 2 rounds of the KCWO. Pretty sure I saw a couple of his "robberies". One was at BV, he had about a 35 footer to birdie, and his shot was good, went vertical and went out the other side.

Can't remember any at Swope Gold, but he should have seen my 18 footer that was perfect height, speed, and level on the correct side of the pole that hit and swung back out. Taking me out of the top 10. Only double bogey of the weekend. But you know what, while I remember that putt and how perplexing it was, I don't think that anything really could have improved it's chances of going in AND withstand the elements AND not just turn the target into a catchall for any putt, or rejecting other seemingly good putts. There's a give and take on target design, and if you catch more from one section, you may lose a balance of catching quality elsewhere in the zone.

Matt, the USDGC targets are no different than any other DISCatchers. They just get put away during the year so they look shiny and new at championship time.

At least most baskets are better than this...

Best Basket Ever (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbF-e2boXlg)



That guy is obviously putting too hard and missing the sweet spot!

I've lost 100s of dollars worth of ace funds this year because of spit outs from the teepad!

Soften-up those drives...maybe a lil more nose-up...! :D

If you hit that same shot on a golf course, what would your percentage of aces be? A disc hitting the basket at 40 miles an hour should not be expected to stick. Not saying your disc was going 40 mph when it hit, but in general, aces are lucky shots that hit the target. In golf, very few aces are going fast except the ones that hit the pole and drop in on the fly or off a hop.

I should have added a :Dto my post. I don't expect tee shots to stick, but it is crazy how they sometimes do. Yesterday I hit one from 273' that came in on the front side of the basket barely hitting the chains and slamming down into the bottom of the left side of the basket. It slid up the left side of the basket like a skater on a half-pipe and balanced vertically on the side of the basket before falling back in.

so you disagree with Matt and Mr. Climo :eek: or just with Matt? :p

Anyone here about Markus' cutthrought in the final 9? Well it didn't really matter I guess since he only lost by one. :confused:

markus got robbed....

this is why I yelled "fix the baskets"

I hope that makes the video.

It was the Discraft banner waving that affected the wind on Markus' putt...

It was the Discraft banner waving that affected the wind on Markus' putt...



hahahaha now thats funny!

markus got robbed....

this is why I yelled "fix the baskets"

I hope that makes the video.



Yeah right in my ear you [censored]. :D

markus got robbed....

this is why I yelled "fix the baskets"

I hope that makes the video.



Yeah right in my ear you [censored]. :D




[gross overstatement on] Markus got ROBBED! I bet if there'd been titans out there he'd of won! [gross overstatement off]


I've seen some footage of both Markus and Nate, and Markus throws a lot longer with more accuracy at distance. Given that those final nines tend to be open to accommodate spectators, I'd have thought Markus would have an advantage; yet Nate won. Could it be that Nate relied on superior putting skills thus avoiding cut throughs and thus won. Nah! it was just that Markus got robbed!

markus got robbed....

this is why I yelled "fix the baskets"

I hope that makes the video.



Yeah right in my ear you [censored]. :D




[gross overstatement on] Markus got ROBBED! I bet if there'd been titans out there he'd of won! [gross overstatement off]


I've seen some footage of both Markus and Nate, and Markus throws a lot longer with more accuracy at distance. Given that those final nines tend to be open to accommodate spectators, I'd have thought Markus would have an advantage; yet Nate won. Could it be that Nate relied on superior putting skills thus avoiding cut throughs and thus won. Nah! it was just that Markus got robbed!



I don't think a single one of those holes favored Markus more than Nate. All the reachable holes were reachable by everyone and the longer ones were placement holes. Lyle, why must you talk about things you don't even know about?

I played with Nate at the Masters Cup and he can boom.

I've seen some footage of both Markus and Nate, and Markus throws a lot longer with more accuracy at distance.



I wouldn't agree with that. On average, Nate throws almost as far as Markus, and Nate outdrove him a few times on the Highbridge Gold course on Saturday afternoon.

I've seen some footage of both Markus and Nate, and Markus throws a lot longer with more accuracy at distance.



I wouldn't agree with that. On average, Nate throws almost as far as Markus, and Nate outdrove him a few times on the Highbridge Gold course on Saturday afternoon.



I'm going based on the footage I've seen from years past. I'd be foolish to say things don't change. BTW - you'll notice that you said almost as far on average. Obviously such things are hard to judge, but then that wasn't really the point I was trying to make.

On the other hand, one might argue that it would be foolish to say that Markus was robbed because the baskets were inadequate, as opposed to the possibility that Nate was a better player.

Matt, I'm pretty confident that from exactly where Markus stood, many players could drop a putt. I'm also confident that If Markus had taken something off his putt with the right angle, that he'd of made his shot. I'm also pretty confident somewhere in the next few posts you will tell me to shut up because I don't know donkey. :D

Matt, I'm guessing the baskets were pristine, actually, since I've seen a number of pictures I know they are. So what you're saying is that you want a different style of basket than is currently accepted; I disagree. You've also made it clear that the titan is "adequate" presumably because it will catch a harder thrown putt due to it's heavier inner chains and lighter outer chains.

Now what about this topic is it that you think I don't understand? Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they don't understand.

The sad thing was that they were Discatchers but these are the ones that don't catch as well. The reason for this is that they have a different configuration.

I guess I can't talk bad about the baskets considering I only had one weird spit and the other one i had was in the dead zone on the Mach III's

The sad thing was that they were Discatchers but these are the ones that don't catch as well. The reason for this is that they have a different configuration.

I guess I can't talk bad about the baskets considering I only had one weird spit and the other one i had was in the dead zone on the Mach III's



Hosed! I won't deny that your position has merit, I just like giving you pucky! BTW Congrats on your finish, you did Houston proud! Next year, when they have titans in, you can whoop up on those Cali boys!

in my humble opinion a put that spits is fault of thrower not the basket otherwise no putts would stick .i have been spit plenty of times. not continuously from any one basket only. therefore i believe good putts stick bad ones do not.

The sad thing was that they were Discatchers but these are the ones that don't catch as well. The reason for this is that they have a different configuration.

I guess I can't talk bad about the baskets considering I only had one weird spit and the other one i had was in the dead zone on the Mach III's



Hosed! I won't deny that your position has merit, I just like giving you pucky! BTW Congrats on your finish, you did Houston proud! Next year, when they have titans in, you can whoop up on those Cali boys!



Don't let the ratings fool you Lyle! I think I only had 2 rounds that felt like AVG golf or better and yet all but 2 were rated above my rating. Bratten on the otherhand played really good except the last round.

Nonetheless, both you and Robbie played sweet and it was nice looking at the results and seeing Houston and Texas well represented! I can't wait to see both you's guys in the top 10 or even 5!

i usually do a lot more reading posts than interjecting, but I have to agree with Matt and Climo on this one. There needs to be a change made to help provide a better catching device for our sport.

Recently, i was out at a local DFW course and had three different puts that were right in the sweet spot turn vertical and spit right out the back. It is frustrating and ultimately after it happens to a player during a round it takes and mental toll on you.

I am only an advanced level player and not a top notch pro, but all the same it gets frustrating to putt in right where it belongs only to see it shift and fall out. There needs to be a consistency in our sport. If we plan to eventually be on a level like the PGA, we need that consistency in our equipment.

Just my 2 cents. :D