What if you were a good advanced player, playing in the advanced division in a PDGA tournament. Lately you were getting good enough that you had considered moving up to open. If you shot very well for that tournament and happened to beat most of the open field, should you be able to accept cash for that open position that you would have finished in???...of course realizing that you are now an open player because you had just accepted the cash.

moving him/her to open.

The only reason I voted no is cause I believe the am player should be able to move up and down the scale of the PDGA events and for example at a lowely C tier probably in his hometown be able to accept cash but of course at HIGHER EVENTS stay an AM .
His lower rating uhm 957ish ( lets say at a lowely C tier on his home course he cashes 4th place in OPEN and gets $50 ) But at a B tier or an A tier his 957 ability will get him CRUSHED and he is just a donator .
IF the question would have read , HE could keep his am status if he so desires for higher tiered events , I would be all for it .
Maybe that is an answer to the question .
IF you cash at a CERTAIN LEVEL OF COMPITITION then you must stay pro at that level of compitition .
HUMMMM ........ There is a thought there .

Anyhow it is pretty evident that we need somehow or someway to allow players to be competitive but protected all at the same time .

i agree with lafsaledog if he cashes in a lower tier then that should be ok...but what about all of those pros that have been pros for a while and still havent won any open events??? in an a tier do you think all of the weaker open players would sand bag and stay in adv?? that would take away from the bigger payouts for the open winners!!!! that would steer better players away from our hometowns!!!! i dont know about yall but ive been playing for 1 year and i love to see the local pros in the dfw play like jd ramirez and nolan grider, but also to watch coda and sprague and schultz and climo and doss and all of the other big names is such a treat!!! those are the ones that make this game so great!!!!!! so what ever it takes to get those big names in my town is what should be done!!!! in my opinion i dont think the dfw area has enough a tiers!!!! we need more a tiers to get the bigger names here!!!!!!!!

i misunderstood the question... i voted no, but after that realized the acceptance of cash moves the player to open in the question's scenario. it seems to make sense to move to open after cashing

If the player has been playing good lately and has considered moving up, I think being able to accept the cash would be a motivating factor. Of course, like stated above, because they accept cash at a C tier event, they are forced to play open at the next A or B tier event. But then again, if they accept the cash, hopefully they would consider the consequences.

I understand what you are saying but really if the NT or A tier is big enough ( assuming you also get the masters to play in the same division ) then the compition will take care of itself .
My ideas just make the same level of person play together .
IMPO those lower level pros most of them would not bag anyhow but it is important to give them a place to play competitivly if they choose to do so without gettting creamed and no chance to place .

Camerelli's idea wouldn't work because there isn't any cash to give that guy. The TD spent it on your amateur player pack, amateur payout, pdga fees, sanctioning, insurance, lunch, added cash for the pros, lodging, gas, whatever his expenses happen to be, etc., etc. Plus it offends all sensibility. If you paid to play for prizes, you're playing for prizes. You can't change your bet after the horses are out of the gate.

But lafsaledog's idea is interesting. If i understand him correctly he's suggesting a gradual transition from pro to am where you are a pro only at the level where you've cashed. So if you cash at a C-tier, you can still play B-tiers and above as an am. So Am Worlds would be dominated by 1000 rated A-tier pros who've never cashed at Majors because they don't go to Majors? I cannot see that happening.

evreyone that the player beat in the open div would be bumped down a spot, forcing 1 open player that would have cashed, to not cash. I understand your reasoning though."You can't change your bet after the horses are out of the gate." Playing for prizes and playing for cash are two different games.

I agree with Bruce... I think we all look at the scores and think... Wow, I would have placed in the _______(fill in the blank) division... But it does not make sense to allow someone to choose thier division after they have already played the event with the division they reg'd for... I always have believed that who you play the round with has an effect on your game. So if you play in Adv. and think your score would have been exactly the same had you played with and against open players... I think you are kidding yourself. There is one reason why it is not fair, because the level of competition would be different from group to group and division to division.. IMPO

Yeah, that would never happen either. Given the way I play trophy-only versus for-prizes, there has to be a huge difference between the pressure in advanced for a top advanced player versus the pressure he'd feel in open against the best local pros. You have to choose when you pay in the morning.

If you are looking for a gradual transition up, go to rating based divisions. Offer each division the option to play for either cash or prizes. This way the guys rated say 955ish don't play against the guys that are say above 980. The 955 guys have a chance to cash and when they feel their game has advanced, they can move to the next rating division and play against the big dogs. That way you don't have a 940ish pro/pro master that has to play against 980 and higher pro/pro masters unless he chooses to "play up".

If you are looking for a gradual transition up, go to rating based divisions. Offer each division the option to play for either cash or prizes. This way the guys rated say 955ish don't play against the guys that are say above 980. The 955 guys have a chance to cash and when they feel their game has advanced, they can move to the next rating division and play against the big dogs. That way you don't have a 940ish pro/pro master that has to play against 980 and higher pro/pro masters unless he chooses to "play up".



If the TD doesn't know who is going to take cash and who is going to take prizes before the round begins, then he won't be able to do his payouts and accounting during the first round.

If you are looking for a gradual transition up, go to rating based divisions. Offer each division the option to play for either cash or prizes. This way the guys rated say 955ish don't play against the guys that are say above 980. The 955 guys have a chance to cash and when they feel their game has advanced, they can move to the next rating division and play against the big dogs. That way you don't have a 940ish pro/pro master that has to play against 980 and higher pro/pro masters unless he chooses to "play up".



If the TD doesn't know who is going to take cash and who is going to take prizes before the round begins, then he won't be able to do his payouts and accounting during the first round.



All players must chose whether they play for cash or prizes at registration.

What if you were a good advanced player, playing in the advanced division in a PDGA tournament. Lately you were getting good enough that you had considered moving up to open. If you shot very well for that tournament and happened to beat most of the open field, should you be able to accept cash for that open position that you would have finished in???...of course realizing that you are now an open player because you had just accepted the cash.


Looking at your record and experience I would suggest moving to Open to push you to the next level.

As for your question. I believe your player rating should dictate your division eligibility, and you should be able to "bump" back and forth, with restrictions maybe on the amount won. It presents an interesting challenge to TD's though. (keeping up to date on player ratings)

Open = Open to anyone who wants to compete for cash.

It's not wether your a pro or not, it's wether you belong in the "amatuer" divisions or not.

Wouldn't mind seeing a reduced rate similiar to trophy only, except the player can win a % of the purse equal to the discounted % of the entry fee. This would help players who find the higher entry to be to much of a risk. 100 entry 50 entry / 1st = 500 1st = 250 / remaining $ amounts are figured into the purse for all full fee Open players... with some details to iron out.

just a thought for the guys who want to mix it up in the open once in awhile.

Hey Phillip, thanks for finding my 10x TeeBird! Bet your Still BOOM'N 500ft! Need to play catch with a friend more to get your player rating up (just like baseball - and you know that) Keep it going!

The DFW welcomes with open arms, MaceMan, Flesner, Lee Letts, that crazy dude Landon. You guys make it feel like home!

Thanks Again

Ok but if there was ratings caps on all divisions that would solve the problem .
Just cause you cash at 1 or 2 low level tourneys does not really make you a "pro" IMPO .
What makes a person a "pro" is to compete at the highest level a sport has to offer .
YES I REALIZE the dictionary says a pro competes for cash , but really that would as I am sure most of us realize
PROS .
I would like to know of one person rated about 900 or higher who has NOT taken money at some NON PDGA event .
I CAN GUARENTEE there is NOT one person .
THEREFORE the definition of " pro " in webster dictionary goes out the window .
Going back to capping am worlds divisions
I would guess if you can play this sport at a level above 980 ( even though your chances of cashing at an A tier are pretty slim ) I would consider you a PRO .
THEREFORE
979 and lower could play advanced at am worlds
955 and lower could play advanced masters at worlds if eligible
915 and lower could play advanced grand masters OR intermediate
and on down from there in some sort of fashion

What if you were a good advanced player, playing in the advanced division in a PDGA tournament. Lately you were getting good enough that you had considered moving up to open. If you shot very well for that tournament and happened to beat most of the open field, should you be able to accept cash for that open position that you would have finished in???...of course realizing that you are now an open player because you had just accepted the cash.


Looking at your record and experience I would suggest moving to Open to push you to the next level.

As for your question. I believe your player rating should dictate your division eligibility, and you should be able to "bump" back and forth, with restrictions maybe on the amount won. It presents an interesting challenge to TD's though. (keeping up to date on player ratings)

Open = Open to anyone who wants to compete for cash.

It's not wether your a pro or not, it's wether you belong in the "amatuer" divisions or not.

Wouldn't mind seeing a reduced rate similiar to trophy only, except the player can win a % of the purse equal to the discounted % of the entry fee. This would help players who find the higher entry to be to much of a risk. 100 entry 50 entry / 1st = 500 1st = 250 / remaining $ amounts are figured into the purse for all full fee Open players... with some details to iron out.

just a thought for the guys who want to mix it up in the open once in awhile.

Hey Phillip, thanks for finding my 10x TeeBird! Bet your Still BOOM'N 500ft! Need to play catch with a friend more to get your player rating up (just like baseball - and you know that) Keep it going!

The DFW welcomes with open arms, MaceMan, Flesner, Lee Letts, that crazy dude Landon. You guys make it feel like home!

Thanks Again



In theory that's an interesting idea. I think it would be difficult for a TD to actually pull off correctly. Of course this is coming from a TD who likes to get the awards going within 5 minutes of the last card coming in...we like to have things as streamlined as possible.

I am in favor of ratings based events but there is still too much " potential for overlap " and " not enough protection affforded " just by saying you belong here .
I still beleive the ratings based version should be more flexible for the level of event you are playing
Once again a C tier event with a low turnout, low entry fee might yeild a 930ish ratied player getting a 4th place win in open and get that person $50 in cash
HOWEVER if he now is " pro " and goes to an A tier and pays LOTS Of money has NO REAL CHANCE AT getting even his money back . he is going to loose interest real quick .

Allow this person to play some sorta of AM divisions at HIGHER LEVEL events .

Yeah Jon, great event by the way - very professional and organized!

I know the logistics are the challenge - Hats off to all the TD's who can go the extra mile - I realize it's not an easy job. Thanks again Brakel's

Corey Phillips ran his first tourny in Belle Plaine, IA this weekend and he pulled it off like a vet. Nice maps and course details! Your a players TD Corey!

As I read the original post, it's not about the current division structure, abuses thereof, alternatives to, etc. It seems to be asking about a player playing in the advanced division in a particular tournament, scoring well enough to have cashed had he/she entered as a pro instead, and seeking cash.

It seems that in our current structure, where most players have a choice of which division to enter in a particular tournament, a player should live with his choice and not claim prizes for divisions he could have entered, but didn't.

There's also a question of whether such a player would have shot the same score if he was entered in, grouped with, and completing against, the open division. More pressure?

Exactly... Thats what I was pointing out. I myself would bend to that pressure. I don't know if that goes for everyone, but we don't play disc golf in a bubble, do we?.. JMPO

The pressure is definately a BIG factor. Making a comeback in open is quite a bit harder then in the am divisions. That's why you see the pros that are out of contention running at aces on most holes come the 3rd & 4th rounds. This was just a late night thought, wanted some other opinions. With 4 young children and just starting a new business, my disc golf days are dropping more and more each week.

You can't change your bet after the horses are out of the gate.



Unless you're an am playing pro and you don't cash high enough to justify taking cash.

You can't change your bet after the horses are out of the gate.



Unless you're an am playing pro and you don't cash high enough to justify taking cash.

There's no law that says you have to cash a winning ticket.

I would like to be able to play in the open division at local tournements since I know the courses and could compete for cash, we do it all the time at league. You would have to enter the open class before playing. If you cash at C-tier your a C-tier pro, if you cash at B-tier your a B-tier pro etc. I could have cashed at C-tier before but played ams because I would be DFL at an A-tier tournement so I don't want to give up my am status at a higher tier. It sucks to hear people calling me a sandbagger at a local tournement so I can keep my am status. This would also increase the prize money for all open players at lower tier events and make lower tier events more competitive since the better local ams that play like a pro on their home course could play up and allow the true am players on that course a chance to win.

I'll have to hire Mark Ellis to read the poll question for next time.

misunderstood - thanks

Iafsaledog - I don't think I disagree on too many of your points. When I mentioned the Open division, I was just trying to separate the division with the predominant participants Pro vs Open. These are two different things, that get intermingled loosely - not saying you are - just in general. Good thoughts.

Once we pay our entry fee, we start the tournament as equals, until it's over. And because it's golf, it's ever-changing. We shouldn't define "players/people" on a rating system that has Tim Mackey 1019 (love Tim, but he's not producing that kind of average).

Every round is an opportunity to elevate your game, get focused, and realize your potential - your ratings will change - it doesn't define you. If your a borderline Am/Pro your probably better off playing an A-NT level in the Open division, because of the amazing energy that will surround you and your game. Not to mention that you'll be able to play entire rounds with higher rated players (in the heat of battle), and watch how they manage their game, and see where they are NOT loosing strokes (if you don't know where you take your strokes you can't improve).

Sure you can get that finishing top 10 out of 80 in the advanced, but it doesn't produce a hot enough fire to forge a real SWORD.

At those A-NT events the main reason players don't cash is due to low turnout(it's not necessarily the quality of your play). the more players the more spots paid. Glassblown Open 06 vs Memorial 06 - big turnout difference - same quality of players.
- I may not have cashed at the Memorial if I played like I did at GBlown.

Just a thought

Thanks again Jon - it's all in the logistics. Great job!

i like the idea of allowing players competing in Open to accept merchandise in lieu of cash and retain am status. Open players seem to like the idea cuz it builds the Open purse. Am players seem to like it cuz they can test the waters in a top field, but retain their status by accepting what amounts to 50 cents on the payout dollar. TDs seem to like it cuz cashing Ams only take 50 cents on the payout dollar :) is it as much of a win-win-win as it appears?

Its a win-win-win unless you consider that this scenario blurs the already fuzzy distinction between Professionals and Amateurs.
My personal belief is that if you want to be a Professional, then commit yourself and your money and ignore the consequences. Not everyone is supposed to make it, in any sport. Sometimes rookies make it, sometimes they don't. But I don't agree with being able to be a pro sometimes and an am sometimes. I know the PDGA wants to make everyone happy so they keep playing and renewing forever. But, reality says that in other sports, this only happens if you are one of the best of the best. If you get your touring card in the PGA and don't make any cuts, you have 2 choices:
1. Keep trying to get your card until you cash or go broke.
2. Quit and do something else.
I think the integrity of our sport from every aspect would be improved if we adopted a similar philosophy.
That's my $0.02 and most people in the PDGA don't agree, but hopefully I can reach people with my bold ideas.

colin, i totally agree with that assessment. my opinion is based on my sense that very little in our current competitive structure has anything to do with "pro". its basically an admission of the obvious... an attempt to make some lemonade. a real pro initiative needs its own program. what we do in the existing structure seems overwhlemingly geared for Ams, regardless of their "classification" with the Association. we might as well recognize that fact, and proceed to give those players what they apparently want. it doesnt need to affect the development of a new structure that meets the needs of actual Pro competition.

i like the idea of allowing players competing in Open to accept merchandise in lieu of cash and retain am status. Open players seem to like the idea cuz it builds the Open purse. Am players seem to like it cuz they can test the waters in a top field, but retain their status by accepting what amounts to 50 cents on the payout dollar. TDs seem to like it cuz cashing Ams only take 50 cents on the payout dollar :) is it as much of a win-win-win as it appears?


would somebody please remind us why they took away this option. it seems to me to be the biggest mistake our organization has made. (even worse than the initial approval of the "turbo".)

no idea about the history of the policy, but very sure the idea has found (re)new(ed) favor.

blurs the line between am and pro ???
What do you think we have now ??
An am lets say rated at 965 ish can walk into an A tier , pay $75 and win first place and get a basket worth $200
Second place gets a stack full of plastic worth let say $125
NO matter what way you look at it that am is MAKING A PROFIT ( lets leave the arguement out of he sells this stuff in the parking lot ) .
I know there are alot of us who at least turn around and sell that same stuff we win as prizes at the next tourney down the line we run .
I may not be much profit but it is profit .

ON the flip side a 965 rated " pro " gets to donate and maybe once or twice get his money back at a C tier event

As I said before the definition of "pro" maybe to accept cash but I am sure as was said earlier there are LOTS of players who have accepted cash just not a PDGA TOURNEY .
THEREFORE are we all NOT PROS ?????

Ok then what about all the MINOR league players who make a pittance compared to the big boys in the major leagues .
They are still "pro" ball players or semi pro as it were .
Our sport is small but there are enough players in the middle of the pack to allow some ebb and flow between the lines of pro and am .

Ok then what about all the MINOR league players who make a pittance compared to the big boys in the major leagues .
They are still "pro" ball players or semi pro as it were .
Our sport is small but there are enough players in the middle of the pack to allow some ebb and flow between the lines of pro and am .


Semi-pro ball players don't have age-protected divisions. Your example would work if we eliminated the "semi-pro" age-protected divisions.
IF we eliminate age-protected divisions and have all ratings based divisions, we could have a system similar to baseball with:
OPEN = Major leagues (highest entry fees, all added cash)
Pro = Triple A (high entry fees, no added cash)
Semi-pro/Advanced = Double A (choice between cash or prizes)
Am = Single A, Farm leagues, etc. (prizes)
Lower divisions same

colin, i totally agree with that assessment. my opinion is based on my sense that very little in our current competitive structure has anything to do with "pro". its basically an admission of the obvious... an attempt to make some lemonade. a real pro initiative needs its own program. what we do in the existing structure seems overwhlemingly geared for Ams, regardless of their "classification" with the Association. we might as well recognize that fact, and proceed to give those players what they apparently want. it doesnt need to affect the development of a new structure that meets the needs of actual Pro competition.


That's only because the policies and decisions are re-active instead of pro-active. The integrity of the players dictates the policy. I just happen to believe that the players should strive to live up to the integrity of the policy.
If the policy is driven by the status quo then what is the goal? The goal has already been met!?!
I think its a cop-out to say "yeah, those goals are great eventually, but right now we'll just be mediocre." Instead, if we all have the visions of what we can be, why make those steps BOLDLY?
[The reason is because you can't make everyone happy AND change the status quo. People, in general, loathe change, even if the future will be better.]

which is EXACTLY my point and has been for sometime .
That small system that you llisted allows protection for the lower players from the higher players .
The only problem with that is the cutoffs would always be the same and really would benifit a few people who are at the top of each cutoff
That is why , taking that system you said , and combining it with the Tiered pdga tourney system we have now .
At A tiers , your system would be in place
At B tiers , you could lower the PRO level rating cutoff to the AAA level since there are not as many MAJOR LEAGUERS who show up to B tiers
AT C tiers , you could lower the PRO level rating to AA level since there are VERY FEW MAJOR LEAGUERS who show up to C Tier events . NOT only that you can CAP what the MAJOR LEAGUERS would win since they are WAY ABOVE the normal compitition that would show up at a C tier event .

And to add to this
Then a lower tiered player could have a good potential to cash at that lower tiered event but BE PROTECTED at the higher tiered events ( crossing the line between AM and PRO )

blurs the line between am and pro ???
What do you think we have now ??

* * *
As I said before the definition of "pro" maybe to accept cash but I am sure as was said earlier there are LOTS of players who have accepted cash just not a PDGA TOURNEY .
THEREFORE are we all NOT PROS ?????

Hey, I cashed last night! Drew a good partner and played three down at Holly. Won back my entry fee, diana's entry fee and a little money for Subway! :D

Therefore by definition of the PDGA had that been a PDGA tourney you would be a "pro " and have to compete in EVERY TOURNEY YOU PLAY IN FROM NOW TILL YOU DIE A " PRO "
in my idea you would only have to compete as a "pro" in local random draw doubles tourneys
and be able to stay am at lets say C tier events since you have never cashed at a c tier event

Thanks for proving my point

Actually there are a lot of age protected sports that pay out money. I've seen my brother-inlaw make some serious cash playing old timer league softball and bowling. I like to play aginst guys my own age because they suffer the same age problems as me, you will too someday. I'm 44 and in a long tournement if I play against young guys they begin to have an advantage over me and it isn't form a lack of skill on my part.

I read your post and thought immediatly that you were a lower rated player and was right .
In my ideas I have no plans to take away age protection from LOWER RATED players .
At 917 rating you deserve protection due to the fact you have proven you need it even at the lowest levels of compitition of PDGA events .
Even me at 934 needs protection ( age maybe ratings definatly ) from the 1000 rated golfers , and that is MY POINT .
People who have the ability to HIDE OUT in a division even though they have proven thru ratings that they can not only compete but WIN at the higher PDGA events , DO NOT NEED THE protection .
As I have said in the past age protection should be about those of us WHO cannot compete at the top level not about a top level player hiding out just cause he is over 40 .
Once again I will use GEORGE FORMAN
HE won the boxing world championship
NOT THE WORLD over 40 championship
he was able to compete against the best the world had to offer at that time AND WON
AGE for some is NOT a limiting factor , and for those of us who it is ( which is most of us ) we should have the ability to have protection , and have that protection from those who can compete at the top of the top class ALSO .

Even me at 934 needs protection ( age maybe ratings definatly ) from the 1000 rated golfers , and that is MY POINT .
People who have the ability to HIDE OUT in a division even though they have proven thru ratings that they can not only compete but WIN at the higher PDGA events , DO NOT NEED THE protection .




OK, William, we've all been listening as you've SHOUTED OUT YOUR IDEAS!

Now for a little reality check:
In the four PDGA events that you've played this year you've been the highest rated in the Am Masters division every single time. On average your next closest rated player has had a rating 19.5 points less than yours. On average your rating has been 39.4 points higher than the average of the rest of the field.

Here's your opportunity to explain to the rest of us how, contrary to the evidence, you've actually been practicing what you preach.

Well first things first
sorta proves my point that with so many divisions that allows people to hide out ( INCLUDING MYSELF ) that the ideas need to be looked at .
Second ,
I would LOVE to play a C tier PDGA event as a pro master if 2 things would be avail to to us who could compete . ( even though in my idea about ratings breaks and pdga tiers the lowest anyone would be forced pro is 955 at a C tier and FYI I have played pro master in the last 2 weekend at NON PDGA events and competed fairly well , basically winning my money back )
1. Be able to go back to am at B and A tiers when the compitition gets better and those of us who would need the protection get it . ( because with a 934 rating I would be squashed at an A tier event )
2. The caps would be in place to protect lower rated players from higher rated ones based upon what I have said in past .

To answer your question directly ,
I have played advanced master at EVERY event that offered it since I have turned 40 . Right wrong or indifferent that is the way I have done it . In other words I dont slide from one division to another .Under the current system I have basically 2 choices Advanced or Advanced Master . I stay put in advanced masters , even if I knew I could play advanced and possibly "bag" my way to a disc golf basket or more prizes . If I am not mistaken if you look over my scores and compare them to what I would have taken home in prizes in advanced I seem to always come out about the same to be honest with you .
I have played lots of C tiers since most of the tourneys here in PA are one day C tiers that I can make cause of working saturdays . The only reason I have played the other tourneys is I am forturnate enought to have a job that sends me to NORMAN OK for extended periods of time that allows me to play in most of them .
Maybe possibly I should play advance at some all C tier events I would concede to you on that one . ( cause realistically by your account I have an almost 2 stoke lead per round )
With that being said when I did play in AM worlds at Tulsa OK last year came in 62nd place in advanced masters
HARDLY a CONVINCING place considering you are trying to say whenever I step out on the disc golf course I am just dominating my compitition from the get go .

To sum up my ideas , there has to be a way to allow someone like me ( and there are plenty of us ) to slide up and down a scale and make ALL tourneys we play in a chance at something good if we play well .

After rereading my orig post 2 things came to mind .
First , With my ideas about tier and divsion caps , I would probably have to play advanced at C tier events . THAT is fine by me cause I would play open or masters if the caps were initiated anyhow ( see how the caps would allow people to MOVE UP and take a chance )
Second ,
My rating is 934 . IT has been as high as 944 and as low as 900 I think .
IF you would research all my rounds EVER you would see that I have NEVER shot a 1000 rated round ( 992 is the closest )
This is my whole basis upon capping divisions at events .
If I have NEVER shot a 1000 rated round ever , just how am I expected to compete against a person who averages 1000 rated rounds . ( cause if you know anything about ratings to put it basically it is an average of what you can shoot on a day , sorta like your bowling average which mine is about 135 fyi )
Now I realize this is just me and maybe just maybe I am a statistical anomoly , but if there are soo many people bunched in the middle as I am assuming and those people are in the same boat I am , I cant believe there is more yelling about the system , and how to make it more fair to everyone .

And this yelling by the way is coming from a person who in your eyes is hiding out in a division .
The system we have now has some major problems and I would like to see them fixed , even if it would force me to play up sometimes .

I have not read anything but the first post...so excuse me if I repeat points.

The answer should be No for the following reasons

- Pressure - whether people think there is or not, there is an added pressure playing for cash rather than prizes
- Nerves - most people get nervous, especially at the beginning, during pro events.
- Playing factors - it can be frustrating watching someone play a really good round (meaning 1040+) when you are struggling. To me, when I'm struggling (950 range) and someone is killing it, I play worse b/c I feel I am getting destroyed by the golfer and it just builds up more pressure
- Open and advanced, even in same layout, play a different course - let's say 1-9 are all easy and 10 - 18 are tough. Personally, I feel that good rounds come when a golfer plays really well on the easy part of the course. Imagine if the beginning of the round is bad weather and the 2nd half it calms down. The open started on the easy part, the ams on the hard part. Now, in the calm, the open is on the hard, the ams are on the easy. This basically adds a different course feel to the round.
- after bad rounds, on lower card - this can be a huge deal. A bad round in open (940 or less) is almost always on the last card. A 940 round in advanced could be top 10 or even the lead. Playing on the last card could hurt the players spirit.

Hey, MTL. Perhaps the roughly 1-shot difference between ratings that Pros get vs Ams for the same score on the course is due to the factors you mentioned? If so, then we shouldn't make any adjustments and let pros get better ratings than ams on the same layout?

you know I've never thought of that....

but I still say ratings should be based on the course rather than whos playing it and how everyone shoots....but that is a whole different discussion.

HARDLY a CONVINCING place considering you are trying to say whenever I step out on the disc golf course I am just dominating my compitition from the get go .


I wasn't really saying that I don't think a 934 player should play advanced masters. Just based on the PDGA events that you've entered this year it's possible to look at those fields and conclude that you're a bagger. Similarly, one could look at a tournament and conclude that a 1000 rated Pro Masters player is a bagger.

In either case, my argument is that neither yourself playing Advanced Masters nor the 1000 rated player playing Pro Masters are baggers. Now, if the 1000 rated player was playing Advanced Masters, then that'd clearly be bagging.

I agree that at all but the biggest of events it's better for the sport if the 1000 rated 40 year old plays open. I think tournament entry/payouts should be structured so that that player has the financial incentive to play open. I also like your ideas for having sliding divisional caps depending on the tier.

I wasn't really saying that I don't think a 934 player should play advanced masters. Just based on the PDGA events that you've entered this year it's possible to look at those fields and conclude that you're a bagger. Similarly, one could look at a tournament and conclude that a 1000 rated Pro Masters player is a bagger.

I'd agree with you to an extent , however lets take this idea to the bigger picture .
If you were to take the scores I posted and slide them into the next division up ( advanced ) at the 4 tourneys I played this year , I would have finished 5th,15th,11th,14th respectively .
IF you would take any 1000 rated master ( choose any B,C tier event you want ) and slide his scores into the open divsion I would bet he would finish in the top 5 almost every time .
I think this is mainly cause a 1000 rated player ( no matter how old he is ) has proven that he is a TRUE PROFESSIONAL in this sport .
You do mention this in your statement about 1000 rated players ( all of them ) should have no protection but it goes bigger then that . ANY player who plays in a division when he could WIN in the next division up does not deserve the protection . ( this is why they instituted caps on the lower levels of the am tiers , and conversly I will never understand why it did not follow up all the way to the top )
NOW , I am not saying I in some instances do not take advantage of being over 40 , but it is not like I would be walking away with a top 3 finish in the next division up either .

What if you were a good advanced player, playing in the advanced division in a PDGA tournament. Lately you were getting good enough that you had considered moving up to open. If you shot very well for that tournament and happened to beat most of the open field, should you be able to accept cash for that open position that you would have finished in???...of course realizing that you are now an open player because you had just accepted the cash.



I'm late to this but isn't the scenario that a player enters Advanced in a PDGA event, paying the <u>advanced entry fee</u> who wants to be paid cash prize as if he paid the <u>larger Pro entry fee</u> and played in the pro division thus jumping division somewhere along the way? So he pays Advanced and accepts Pro cash thus moving the others that paid pro entry down in prize money.
How about if an Intermediate player played great and wants the Advanced prize for the score he threw?
Or a first time player in the Recreational division stomps the field and wants the top Intermediate prize? Top Advanced prize?

Did I miss the premise?

I agree with most of this..

But I do disagree with one statement. My rasting is 940 or so and when i enter advanced I hope to finish well. If I played Open I would have ZERO expections to cash and maybe I could play better. So there are definately two ways to look at it. If I am playing advanced I might think every 30 foot putt could be the difference in a couple of spots whether top 10 or not. However, if I were playing open it might be oh well I am donating anyway,.

I do speak from experience because in a fun non sanctioned event I plaed open and surprised myself because i had ZERO expectations. Then when I compared them to the advanced scores I saw I would have won. BY 1 stroke. Don't you think the pressure of the final couple of holes might have been different if I knew I had a chance to win?

Sorry just being the devil's advocate.

I would agree normally.

I think we should quit argueing about players being forced to play Open and instead limit players being in the open division. We water down our top division when we should be limiting it. If only players with a 980+ rating could play open, we would have fewer players in the open ranks and the added money would actually work out to higher payouts. For those under 980, they can opt to play semi-pro, but no money should be added to the semi-pro division. I would then suggest age protected divsions at the Open division, but once again, you must keep a certain rating to be able to play that division. The end result will be 1000 rated players wanting to play in open, because there will be more in that division and the payouts will be higher, if payout is their goal. :p ;)

This should stir some people up.....

But I do disagree with one statement. My rating is 940 or so and when i enter advanced I hope to finish well. If I played Open I would have ZERO expectations to cash and maybe I could play better.

I do speak from experience because in a fun non sanctioned event I placed open and surprised myself because i had ZERO expectations. Then when I compared them to the advanced scores I saw I would have won. BY 1 stroke. Don't you think the pressure of the final couple of holes might have been different if I knew I had a chance to win?




Excellent point, I look back to my first years in open and I had no expectations and found myself very relaxed. I kept saying "steady as she goes" and "keep breathing" I had nerves, but they forged the sword I wield today. If you do play open, pay attention and learn. Don't get caught up in trying to match their game, just be aware of the differences.

I like the idea of allowing people breathing room to go back and forth between divisions, as long as they haven't produced a high scoring average (rating). Ultimately players will find (believe it or not) that they play to the level of their competition, and if they are mentally tough, will become better players in the process. It occurred to me (after playing a round with Barrett White in Mokena, IL) that many players are unaware of the shots being thrown by open players, Barrett was cheering for (in our minds) terrible shots. Her thought was that they looked like great shots, and she enjoyed watching us throw. Reality is that her perspective wasn't fully developed, due to lack of exposure to 1000 rated play (during competition).

I won't respond to "limiting" the "Open" field (Open to everyone not professional field)

When the PDGA is ready to make a Pro Division it will be a separate program with a corporate backing (6-10 week tour) with a showcase feel.

Pete May and I discussed this for some time, and now he's lauched the NCAA Collegiate Championships, it's not Pro, but it's a step in the right direction to develope a true Professional Circuit. Until then consider Open, as an open opportunity to compete with very high rated players, and consider the benefits first (maybe your game will improve).

This is to the guys that make excuses for winning or cashing top 5 in advanced or Adv Masters every weekend, but don't want to mix it up with people they'd be more competitive playing with - Gary Moore in Iowa was a huge bagger in Adv Masters (and a very good friend of mine) he was winning by double digits all the time, recently he played Pro Masters and was leading after the first, finished 2nd and said I'll never go back - plus I've always told him not to wait until these great masters turn grandmasters - or he'd miss out on an amazing opportunity to "learn".

Just some my thoughts - Thanks :)

Chris,

You are right, Open is supposed to be "Open to all players", but the preceeding arguments are now argueing that it should be called "Forced". Really what I am knocking around is an Open division, open to all players with no restriction to ratings and this would in effect become a semi-pro division. Which is pretty much what we have right now. Then we should create a true Profession division that requires high ratings, honorable conduct, letters of recommendation, historical preformance and a proven knowledge of the rules to become a touring member. This Professional division should then be the recipiant of all added moneys. Face it, sooner or later we are going to have to move somewhat in this direction. We will never get ESPN to consistently report on our events if payouts are still so low. We will also never have a true professional class unless we can get to the point where our professionals truely are making their living at this sport. Let us let the semi-pro divisions play with the pro divisions in our struggling years, but added money ONLY goes to the profession division. Once we get this going we can pull semi-pro out. This will spur 1000+ rated players, regardless of age, to work toward getting their Pro Card.

<font color="yellow"> just stirring up the hornets nest</font> ;)

great points.

great points.



I second that. Good articulation of some things I haven't quite been able to get my head around.

I am in agreement with Jerry for all his points .
My ideas ( player ratings cutoffs per divisions and PDGA tier level ) are all IMPO stop gap ideas from Jerrys idea to what we have now ( which IMPO is a total disaster ) .
Maybe the semi pro class he speaks about could still have my ideas since Jerry states he would think the semi pro class is what we have now ( no limit disc golf gambleing to put it bluntly )

IT seems also there is going to be a push to allow ams to compete in pro divisions and accept cash in the future ( as it was in the past )
I have no real problem with this cause it sorta solves problems for the 925-950 rated players who have a tough time choosing am or pro .
I still believe it would be cool to allow ams to get cash at lower tiered events and then they would be " pros " just at those tiers .

This all ties into what Jerrys says about a semi pro class
which if anyone would really look at it
this is what we have NOW just not in terminology

IT seems also there is going to be a push to allow ams to compete in pro divisions and accept cash in the future ( as it was in the past )
I have no real problem with this cause it sorta solves problems for the 925-950 rated players who have a tough time choosing am or pro .
I still believe it would be cool to allow ams to get cash at lower tiered events and then they would be " pros " just at those tiers .


It sounds like it's a done deal for 2008 to allow am's to receive merch in lieu of cash in pro divisions. Very good thing.

I'll repeat myself, unless you're talking senior grand masters or women, 925-950 rated players ARE NOT PROS!

It sounds like it's a done deal for 2008 to allow am's to receive merch in lieu of cash in pro divisions.



Details regarding this and other competition proposals will be forthcoming as soon as the Board approves minutes of their last teleconference meeting.

It sounds like it's a done deal for 2008 to allow am's to receive merch in lieu of cash in pro divisions. Very good thing.


It's only a good thing for TDs who are also merch sellers or clubs who have a rolling inventory at their tourneys. Individual TDs who plan ahead so that they can minimize being stuck with excess inventory won't be able to easily provide this option.

I'm thinking some sharp Internet marketers might offer a national program for merch handling to TDs in need of this service should the proposal become a reality.

tds are already fulfilling online, either directly or in partnership with online stores. this could certainly encourage the trend by extending the market to Pro Only events. if this supports the development of new Pro Only events possible, then its a really good thing!

tds are already fulfilling online, either directly or in partnership with online stores.


Some are. But the best way to maximize your event as a TD is to deal directly with the disc manufacturers in order to get the lowest prices on merch and the best wholesale/retail markup margins for your event. There is a price to be paid in using someone else to provide merch for your event.

I guess an enterprising TD could just send a merch certificate after the event to the ams who cash in Pro divisions and want merch, and then the TD could just pocket the wholesale/retail difference. I guess that would be fine, but since I know that I can't make enough money running a tourney for it to be a worthwhile business venture, I prefer to not even try to make any money and make the tourney as good as it can be. Having the ams play Am where I can plan for it put that money back into the tourney is the best thing, IMHO.

Actually, that's how I used to do it. For my one tourney a year these days I hold it at a ball golf course with a fully plastic-n-beer stocked pro shop where I pay dollar-for-dollar for the am prizes and Ams cost me the same as Pros. So it wouldn't be hard at all for me to merch out ams in the Pro divisions if they cash.

But if anybody runs tourneys the way I used to it could be a problem.

if the costs of carrying inventory exceeds the cost of hookinging up with an onliner, then outsourcing makes sense. its low hanging fruit and great brand-building for the onliner, so sharing the whoesale/retail would make sense..

if the costs of carrying inventory exceeds the cost of hookinging up with an onliner, then outsourcing makes sense. its low hanging fruit and great brand-building for the onliner, so sharing the whoesale/retail would make sense..


I guess you didn't read my post. :)

i did, over and over, and it was still confusing :)

I'm thinking some sharp Internet marketers might offer a national program for merch handling to TDs in need of this service should the proposal become a reality.



That's a great idea Chuck. I own an advertising business here in East TN and have considered doing some things with disc golf, but disc golfers are among the cheapest people on the planet. They'd rather fill their pipe and grab a six pack for $10-$12 then to buy an embroidered hat or T-Shirt. The way to do it possibly would be to supply the major disc manufacturers and have the TD's hand out certificates to be cashed and shipped via online merchandise???

I own an advertising business here in East TN and have considered doing some things with disc golf, but disc golfers are among the cheapest people on the planet. They'd rather fill their pipe and grab a six pack for $10-$12 then to buy an embroidered hat or T-Shirt.


It's a good thing you didn't tell me that before I promoted a disc golf cruise last year. The 200 people that ponied up $400-$800 each for cabins sure would have missed out on an awesome week if I'd listened to that dinosaur wisdom.

"It's a good thing you didn't tell me that before I promoted a disc golf cruise last year. The 200 people that ponied up $400-$800 each for cabins sure would have missed out on an awesome week if I'd listened to that dinosaur wisdom."

Come to East Tn and see. In this area folks are very cheap. Other places aren't so bad. Something like a cruise is a totally different idea. As soon as you announced your cruise dates, I guarantee half of the people on this board were ruled out instantly. WOW, 200 people, thats a great percentage of the disc golfers that could have gone. Imagine if I could sell 200 hats a year, I'd really be living the high life /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

U must stay within the guidelines of the division you are registered in..... There are no if's and's or butt's you cannot move into another division once the tournament begins.
Uncle Bob