OK - So there's endless discussion on our divisional structure, whether it needs fixing, how to go about it, etc.

After reviewing the PDGA's documents on "player classifications", and the rule book (which basically defers to this document for any required clarification), I don't see anything specific that would preclude a player from entering in multiple divisions. (The one thing that alludes to precluding this is the rule that states players in different divisions will not be grouped together - but like I said - I do not see any specific language addressing this issue).

So how about it? Is it wrong to enter in multiple divisions? If a TD would allow it, I would be willing to pay entry fees for both divisions just to highlight the absurdity of our divisional structure. If we wish to reward the best over 40 player in our events - hey I want that prize!! But hey - I also want the biggest prize possible on the days I show up and shoot the best score. If there's no rule against it - would you allow a player to enter multiple divisions that they are eligible for?

if there is no rule against it, sure i would. especially if they are AMs :) if they are pro, at least it inflates the tour purse statistics, so everyone wins, right?!? (j/k)

playing in two divisions proves the absurdity of our structure, thats for sure. yes, it may be lots of fun. i have no problem with fun.

we need a competition track and a social track!

I'm not sure where it is in print but players can't enter two divisions where a single round score counts in more than one division (other than side bets). However, players can enter two divisions when one plays on Saturday and the other on Sunday in the same event.

I'm not sure where it is in print but players can't enter two divisions where a single round score counts in more than one division (other than side bets). However, players can enter two divisions when one plays on Saturday and the other on Sunday in the same event.



and this happens often....technically, it's not the same event. (It's reported as 2 separate events, even though financially the TD may have run it as one event.)

Chap

I'm not sure where it is in print but players can't enter two divisions where a single round score counts in more than one division (other than side bets). However, players can enter two divisions when one plays on Saturday and the other on Sunday in the same event.


Chuck,

What I have pasted below is the only portion of the rules that deals with the subject and it appears from this that playing in multiple divisions is not addressed. If such a rule exists, why then is it not addressed in our rulebook? I am not agreeing or disagreeing with playing in multiple divisions, but I would like to know how it will be addressed from the PDGA's Official standpoint. Obviously, there will be some who will test the waters.

804.06 Grouping and Sectioning:
A. Professional and Amateur players
should not be grouped together, and all
players from different divisions shall be
segregated from each other during play as
much as practicable.
B. All players within a division should
be randomly grouped for the first round
and grouped by cumulative score for each
round thereafter.
C. Groups shall not be less than three
players, except under extenuating
circumstances, as deemed necessary
by the director, to promote fairness. In
cases where fewer than three players are
required to play together, an official is
required to accompany the group and
may play as long as this does not interfere
with the competing players.
D. When there are more entrants than
can play together in one round, the field of
competitors may be split into sections or pools.
E. If conditions differentially affect
play among sections, the director may
consider using a sectioning procedure
for cut and advancement. Under this
procedure, a proportionate number of
advancing players are taken from each
section by score and the scores are not
carried forward.

Perhaps it's not in writing at this point. However, just like any deviation from accepted practice, best to run it by the Tour Director before proceeding. I'm pretty sure our database and online uploading will flag the PDGA number duplication such that the player can't be displayed in two divisions on the same day. Kind of interesting that that player's rating would potentially get counted twice to calculate the course SSA for each round if it were possible to upload the name in two divisions.

You're such a nerd, chuck! Always with the ratings!

OK - So there's endless discussion on our divisional structure, whether it needs fixing, how to go about it, etc.

After reviewing the PDGA's documents on "player classifications", and the rule book (which basically defers to this document for any required clarification), I don't see anything specific that would preclude a player from entering in multiple divisions. (The one thing that alludes to precluding this is the rule that states players in different divisions will not be grouped together - but like I said - I do not see any specific language addressing this issue).

So how about it? Is it wrong to enter in multiple divisions? If a TD would allow it, I would be willing to pay entry fees for both divisions just to highlight the absurdity of our divisional structure. If we wish to reward the best over 40 player in our events - hey I want that prize!! But hey - I also want the biggest prize possible on the days I show up and shoot the best score. If there's no rule against it - would you allow a player to enter multiple divisions that they are eligible for?



Its has happened at the MAsters Cup BEFORE they went to tee times.
Back when they did 2 Pools, Pete Sontag, Jim Oates, Jeff Lissaman and others would enter BOTH Open & Pro Masters (and pay BOTH entry fees)

Not possible now that they run tee times....

Perhaps it's not in writing at this point. However, just like any deviation from accepted practice, best to run it by the Tour Director before proceeding. I'm pretty sure our database and online uploading will flag the PDGA number duplication such that the player can't be displayed in two divisions on the same day. Kind of interesting that that player's rating would potentially get counted twice to calculate the course SSA for each round if it were possible to upload the name in two divisions.



The PDGA database flagging such a thing and being a deviation of accepted practice do not make it against the rules. While I do not intend to try it, as a TD when someone comes up to me on a Saturday morning to register and does so twice in separate divisions, do I stop the registration and say "Chuck says this is against accepted practice, so you can't do this."? So, my point is, that it either is or is not against the rules. I do not find anything in the newest addition of our rulebook to show that it is against the rules, so why would it not be allowed?

I am not intending to slam you or the rules, but I do see this happening in the near future as purses grow and we allow age protected divisions instead of using the ratings you and others have spent so much time to create.

Thanks for your responses guys - and the fact that it is not "per se" against the rules is only part of my point. The other part of course is to highlight what it is our divisions are supposed to actually do. If the goal is to reward a player for being the best in a category (in this case an age based category), but still compete on the same course at the same time as other players shooting similar scores, why shouldn't a player be able to pay and play for EVERY category they "qualify " for?

If the goal instead is to provide separate and distinct competitions for different categories, well then perhaps we need to be looking at a different structure for our competitions (insert CG's broken record here :) )

I'm not sure where it is in print but players can't enter two divisions where a single round score counts in more than one division (other than side bets). However, players can enter two divisions when one plays on Saturday and the other on Sunday in the same event.



As I said - I can't find it in the rules, the Player Classification, or Tour Standards documents. If it actually is in print - someone please find it for me!! Because I'm not willing to just take CK's word for it as if it were gospel ;)

You don't have to take my word for it because it has no weight in this matter. I'm just pretty certain that Dave will throw out the results for the player in one division or the other if it is done and results submitted that way. Nothing wrong with trying it and seeing what happens. It will likely just result in another rule if that's the purpose.

I was looking at the Orienteering rulebook yesterday and they specifically disallow players entering more than one category. In our first one or two PDGA World Championships, I believe they awarded titles to the best players over 35, 45, and 55 when they only offered the Open division. I'm not sure an additional entry fee was charged.

You don't have to take my word for it because it has no weight in this matter. I'm just pretty certain that Dave will throw out the results for the player in one division or the other if it is done and results submitted that way. Nothing wrong with trying it and seeing what happens. It will likely just result in another rule if that's the purpose.

I was looking at the Orienteering rulebook yesterday and they specifically disallow players entering more than one category. In our first one or two PDGA World Championships, I believe they awarded titles to the best players over 35, 45, and 55 when they only offered the Open division. I'm not sure an additional entry fee was charged.



In the case Im refering too.....(2001 Masters Cup is the last I found thaT IT HAPPENED)...WHY?? would it NOT be allowed??? They play at different times...with different scores.. :)

It seems more common NOW to have a "Side" division..ie Japan Open, Canadian Open..with an added entry fee.......

Not sure on that one...but why not...If thats what the players want & the TD promotes it..NO POINTS though.. ;)

:D

I, as well, could not find anything against someone signing up for more than one division in a tournament, so I suppose it could be done.

BUT, as a TD, I would put that person's name on two separate cards. If the 2 divisions were playing at the same time, this person would get all par plus 3 or DNF for one division. If the 2 divisions were playing at separate times, and the logistics worked out, the player could play both divisions.

Again, this is assuming that no one could find anything in the Rules, or any competition document precluding this.

...this person would get all par plus 3 or DNF for one division. ...


You're still a little rusty, Bill. Par +4. :)

OK Bill, while an interesting twist - if there's no rule precluding participation in multiple divisions, why would you force someone to post multiple scores? If "divisions" are intended to categorize a means for awarding a prize - why isn't one score good enough?

You don't have to take my word for it because it has no weight in this matter. I'm just pretty certain that Dave will throw out the results for the player in one division or the other if it is done and results submitted that way. Nothing wrong with trying it and seeing what happens. It will likely just result in another rule if that's the purpose.



While logistics and reporting are a legitimate concern - I would not intend to want a single score posted for multiple divisions to count for more than one set of rated rounds. That is not my intent. My intent is to highlight the inequity and absurdity of dividing two groups of similarly skilled men where no division needs to be. If I can convince any local club or TD to allow me to do this, I will gladly donate any Masters winnings (less entry fee of course) back to the host club. Either that - or I will set up a fund to get a local EDGE program started. Greed is not a part of my equation.

As a piece of our historical record, Tom Monroe played in two divisions at the World Championships in Rochester in 1984 -- Open and Masters pools played at different times of the day, and he was the "Ironman". He played in both divisions and as I recall, finished exceptionally well.

Craig,

You have an e-mail

"I'm not sure where it is in print" "Perhaps it's not in writing at this point." and you do what with the PDGA? :eek: :confused: :(

Try to help people find information when they ask. Don't always have the answers. But then you're allowed to make them up on the D-Board... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

So then, why provide comments that are your own not the PDGA as you would have us believe? I think it should be fine to play in any division you are qualified to play in being that you have paid the fees. Why should any one care its more money in the pot and you don't have to add any one else to the roster. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

If you read what I said, it's not in writing and players may proceed to enter multiple divisions on the same day if the TD lets them at their own peril. I have no say in it but Dave does. Maybe he'll allow it but I doubt it unless there's a demand for it and the database updated to handle it.

With all of the debate that has occurred over the years about how different the pressure is in one division over another, how can anyone put forward the idea that a score made in one division is applicable to the scores made by players in another division. As a TD, I would have nothing against you paying and playing in multiple divisions, but would insist that you actually play in those divisions. One round played equals one score posted.

"but would insist that you actually play in those divisions. One round played equals one score posted" BRILLIANT BRILLIENT!! LOL :D

I'm not sure where it is in print but players can't enter two divisions where a single round score counts in more than one division (other than side bets). However, players can enter two divisions when one plays on Saturday and the other on Sunday in the same event.


Chuck,

What I have pasted below is the only portion of the rules that deals with the subject and it appears from this that playing in multiple divisions is not addressed. If such a rule exists, why then is it not addressed in our rulebook? I am not agreeing or disagreeing with playing in multiple divisions, but I would like to know how it will be addressed from the PDGA's Official standpoint. Obviously, there will be some who will test the waters.

804.06 Grouping and Sectioning:
A. Professional and Amateur players
should not be grouped together, and all
players from different divisions shall be
segregated from each other during play as
much as practicable.
B. All players within a division should
be randomly grouped for the first round
and grouped by cumulative score for each
round thereafter.
C. Groups shall not be less than three
players, except under extenuating
circumstances, as deemed necessary
by the director, to promote fairness. In
cases where fewer than three players are
required to play together, an official is
required to accompany the group and
may play as long as this does not interfere
with the competing players.
D. When there are more entrants than
can play together in one round, the field of
competitors may be split into sections or pools.
E. If conditions differentially affect
play among sections, the director may
consider using a sectioning procedure
for cut and advancement. Under this
procedure, a proportionate number of
advancing players are taken from each
section by score and the scores are not
carried forward.



Wouldn't section B (highlighted above) prohibit a player from entering two separate divisions within the same event?

The use of the word "should" versus "must" probably provides the wiggle room to play in more than one division under current printed wording. Still it ought to give TDs pause to allow it if a player asks.

As a piece of our historical record, Tom Monroe played in two divisions at the World Championships in Rochester in 1984 -- Open and Masters pools played at different times of the day, and he was the "Ironman". He played in both divisions and as I recall, finished exceptionally well.


He was the Ironman in '84, and I don't think he was the only one who played in multiple divisions (I think Slaz also did it). But in '83 in Huntsville he (and others) were allowed to play once and have the scores count towards multiple divisions. I remember that the TD's decision to require separate play for each division resulted in some heated discussion. I think the PDGA Executive Director was also involved in the decision.

With the change in overall size of the organization, and development of ratings and such, perhaps that would be a discussion worthy of revisiting.
If the BOD has ANY interest in addressing the kinds of divisional issues discussed in this forum - seems this might be a piece that should be addressed.
I'm not sure that there is much hope of the BOD changing ANYTHING about the divisional structure - which really is a sham(e).

OK Bill, while an interesting twist - if there's no rule precluding participation in multiple divisions, why would you force someone to post multiple scores? If "divisions" are intended to categorize a means for awarding a prize - why isn't one score good enough?



I am assuming that the player paid 2 entry fees - one for, say, Open and one for Pro Masters. That person has signed up and paid for 2 divisions, so, by gum, that person has paid for 2 spots in the tournament and therefore 2 spots on scorecards! Now here's the tricky part! A rule previously quoted stated that the on the first round, IIRC, groupings did not have to be strictly by division. So, after finishing the first round, the player could, again, in my opinion, decide to which division to apply the first round score, and by default, which division would get the DNF or DQ. [edit - the TD could mark the division on the scorecard to try and circumvent this from happening, but the player could just change the designation after the round, if he was devious enough]But, in no way, would I allow one score to count for two divisions. That player _should_ be grouped with other players in the same division after the first round, and how can you do that if the player is playing 2 divisions simultaneously?

With the change in overall size of the organization, and development of ratings and such, perhaps that would be a discussion worthy of revisiting.
If the BOD has ANY interest in addressing the kinds of divisional issues discussed in this forum - seems this might be a piece that should be addressed.
I'm not sure that there is much hope of the BOD changing ANYTHING about the divisional structure - which really is a sham(e).



i believe the "pure" ratings-based format is returning from the dead as an option for next year. (at least i think chuck said that somewhere on the board)

A tournament has two session on a day, the first session is Intermediates and then the second session is Juniors, these are two different start times. Can a Junior play Intermediate in first session of the tournament and then later in the day play again in the Juniors portion of the tournament.

There is no rule against it. If the junior does that, the PDGA's computer program will not be able to process the TD report. That is why split-weekend tournaments have to be reported as two different tournaments.