Ok, I have a very good friend who told me last week that all putters are just modeled after the aviar. He says they are simply the best and everyone tries to make thier disc throw like the aviar. I tried the aviar and it wasn't for me, i opted for the Soft Challenger, by Discraft. So i was wondering your thoughts on a)what my friend said and if its true, and b) what your favorite putter is and why

to each his own. whatever feels good and makes you feel confindent is the right putter for you. I personally putt with KC aviars but they don't work for everyone.

I have used an Aviars, and Rhinos and went back to the aviars. Never tried a different brand. So I would say at the time I am all about my avairs

I don't know about Aviars. I can't grip them comfortably (or the majority of putters for that matter). I putt with an old mold Hydra, and, in my opinion it flies nothing like an Aviar. It does however make a great small diameter putter, and a heck of an approach disc as well. Come on folks, how about a little love for the mis-understood Hydra.

:cool:

pastor keith

In the wind I putt with my Classic Roc, low wind conditions SS Omega or JK Aviar-X.

I'm sorry to disagree with everyone who has posted, but, yes, the aviar is the only putter. I put with the dx, don't bother with anything else, it's nonsense. Oh yeah, and it has to be black (I've been influenced too much by the Borg).

(a) Challenger, Wizard and Warlock are awesome putters that sure seem to be modeled after the Avair. I'm pretty sure the Discmania P1 is an avair. The Omega line from Millinium is an Avair. I also believe that several Innova discs, that might be someones favorite putter, share a top or bottom mold with the Avair.

(b) Dave D's favorite disc period, is the Avair. My fav putter is the Avair. Also fav putter of Ken, Barry, Dave, Avery, Juliana, Des, Val, Angie...

I'm sorry to disagree with everyone who has posted, but, yes, the aviar is the only putter. I put with the dx, don't bother with anything else, it's nonsense. Oh yeah, and it has to be black (I've been influenced too much by the Borg).



Funny thing is Borg only uses the black Aviar when Jump Putting.......But Borg doesnt jump putt he does his walk threw putt so if your trying to be like him you should use a super beat 10X with the bead and stamp worn off for all your putts inside the circle and then the black one for everything outside the circle!!!

You see Borg taught me how to putt so I know what he uses and when he uses it!!!

oh and PS........The Challenger is a much better putter and the bead when its there is less intrusive on the hand!!!

My fav putter is the Avair. Also fav putter of Ken, Barry, Dave, Avery, Juliana , Des, Val, Angie...



I believe that Juliana won all of her world championships putting with a magnet. :eek:

Don't get me wrong, though, I think the Aviar was a great rough draft for the Wizard! ;)

I'm sorry to disagree with everyone who has posted, but, yes, the aviar is the only putter. I put with the dx, don't bother with anything else, it's nonsense. Oh yeah, and it has to be black (I've been influenced too much by the Borg).



Funny thing is Borg only uses the black Aviar when Jump Putting.......But Borg doesnt jump putt he does his walk threw putt so if your trying to be like him you should use a super beat 10X with the bead and stamp worn off for all your putts inside the circle and then the black one for everything outside the circle!!!

You see Borg taught me how to putt so I know what he uses and when he uses it!!!

oh and PS........The Challenger is a much better putter and the bead when its there is less intrusive on the hand!!!



I know exactly what you speak of. But, since I'm relatively new to the sport, I use a beat 11x KC aviar inside the circle. He's definitely my inspiration. He can putt like crazy. I love playing with that guy.

I'm sorry to disagree with everyone who has posted, but, yes, the aviar is the only putter. I put with the dx, don't bother with anything else, it's nonsense. Oh yeah, and it has to be black (I've been influenced too much by the Borg).



Funny thing is Borg only uses the black Aviar when Jump Putting.......But Borg doesnt jump putt he does his walk threw putt so if your trying to be like him you should use a super beat 10X with the bead and stamp worn off for all your putts inside the circle and then the black one for everything outside the circle!!!

You see Borg taught me how to putt so I know what he uses and when he uses it!!!

oh and PS........The Challenger is a much better putter and the bead when its there is less intrusive on the hand!!!



I know exactly what you speak of. But, since I'm relatively new to the sport, I use a beat 11x KC aviar inside the circle. He's definitely my inspiration. He can putt like crazy. I love playing with that guy.



He is my putting Mentor.........Lets see if my Challengers and I can keep up with him this weekend @ Warwick :D:D:D

Ok, I have a very good friend who told me last week that all putters are just modeled after the aviar. He says they are simply the best and everyone tries to make thier disc throw like the aviar. I tried the aviar and it wasn't for me, i opted for the Soft Challenger, by Discraft. So i was wondering your thoughts on a)what my friend said and if its true, and b) what your favorite putter is and why



It dosent matter. Aviars, Challengers, Wizards, I would agree come from the same deighn concepts. However, they are not all aviars. they are putters. Remember we play disc golf not Innova Golf, : look at how manny discs they try to copy from Discraft and Gateway. You wont here brand loyal Innova throwers talking about that ;)

My fav putter is the Avair. Also fav putter of Ken, Barry, Dave, Avery, Juliana , Des, Val, Angie...



I believe that Juliana won all of her world championships putting with a magnet. :eek:

Don't get me wrong, though, I think the Aviar was a great rough draft for the Wizard! ;)


Juliana may have won her first couple of world championships with a Magnet, but the last few were with an Aviar.

Not trying to argue, but what discs are copies of Discraft and Gateway?

Where I play everyone uses aviars of some sort. When I was getting advice from local players they suggested I use them as well. I had a couple JK pros and my putting went to crap. It was something about the rim being too thin for me. I use a couple of bright green (yes color is important because white is wimpy) X putt'r.

I'm glad they really aren't the only putter cause I can't use em. I guess thats a me-problem, or at least coulda been but there is my "probably not worth 2 cents."

I am sure there are some discs that discraft came out with that innova was like, hmm...maybe we should try that?....

But, as far as putters go, Most people i play with use the Aviar.... Personally, i can't stand them. Soft challenger is the only way for me. I just think you need to find something that feels comfortable to you and stick with it. For example, a very good friend of mine started using a soft APX. after a couple of holes, he got so mad at it that he thumbed it at the basket from about 5 feet away. It warped his putter so bad that it made a "groove" for his thumb on top of the disc. Since then, i have never seen him put so good. He will not switch to anything else

heres a bit of information that may be helpful for those who think all putters are copies of Aviars!

If you really want to get that technical the Aviar is a spin off of a kitty hawk which is a scaled down version of a whammo!


Besides the obvious difference in shapes, its the polymers in a putter that make a player go OOOOOOH and AHHHH!!!!


heres the link:
http://www.gdstour.com/gateway_wizard_in_depth.php

Innova's Polecat and Birdie are very different from the Aviar.

I can't speak about Challengers since I haven't ever thrown them, but whoever thinks an Aviar and a Wizard are the same haven't held the 2 up side by side and really looked at them. The main difference is the lower wing (the bottom half of the edge). An Aviar has a flat to slightly concaved lower wing while the Wizard's is convex to the point that the outer edge is almost semi circular. Not a huge difference visually but tiny differences in mold can have dramatic differences in flight. For anyone that doesn't believe that try any of Innova's drivers vs. the L-mold of the same driver.

It dosent matter. Aviars, Challengers, Wizards, I would agree come from the same deighn concepts. However, they are not all aviars. they are putters.


These are three great putters. I used to putt with beaded aviars but then I tried the wizard and realized two things. 1, the rim is more shallow so I could release it more consistenly with my small hands and 2, the wizard is way more consistent putter in the wind, not because it's more overstable but because its profile is more narrow. The aviar, i think, has more glide (or float) than the wizard making the speed of the wind more of an impact on its flight properties.

Swirls, Wizards, Aviars, & Challengers are all Awesome. Pick one, learn it, sink putts.

I'm a shallow rim putter kinda guy, so for me it's a 167 classic roc dx ftw

Swirls, Wizards, Aviars, & Challengers are all Awesome. Pick one, learn it, sink putts.



I agree!

Swirls, Wizards, Aviars, & Challengers are all Awesome. Pick one, learn it, sink putts.



I agree!



Me too!

In fact, I've used all of the above in the past, and use both Wizards and Aviars currently.

Yellow dx Aviar til i die baby!!!

Swirls, Wizards, Aviars, & Challengers are all Awesome. Pick one, learn it, sink putts.



You may have missed a few ...............

Latitude 64

1080
www.1080discgolf.com (http://www.1080discgolf.com)

Whamo

Super Puppy

Discmania
https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/vie...dd300bb28c1a4cd (https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/view_product.php?product=P1_D&PHPSESSID=247a4c06b5 f83bb03dd300bb28c1a4cd)

Swirls, Wizards, Aviars, & Challengers are all Awesome. Pick one, learn it, sink putts.



You may have missed a few ...............

Latitude 64

1080
www.1080discgolf.com (http://www.1080discgolf.com)

Whamo

Super Puppy

Discmania
https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/vie...dd300bb28c1a4cd (https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/view_product.php?product=P1_D&PHPSESSID=247a4c06b5 f83bb03dd300bb28c1a4cd)



I only recommended QUALITY putters that i've actually used.

Swirls, Wizards, Aviars, & Challengers are all Awesome. Pick one, learn it, sink putts.



I agree!



add the warlock to this list.

Swirls, Wizards, Aviars, & Challengers are all Awesome. Pick one, learn it, sink putts.



You may have missed a few ...............

Latitude 64

1080
www.1080discgolf.com (http://www.1080discgolf.com)

Whamo

Super Puppy

Discmania
https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/vie...dd300bb28c1a4cd (https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/view_product.php?product=P1_D&PHPSESSID=247a4c06b5 f83bb03dd300bb28c1a4cd)



I only recommended QUALITY putters that i've actually used.




Ha, LOL that is the quote of the week for me!

The Aviar has been copied by All , but never Duplicated !!!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Aviar is still # 1 :D

Have you thrown the Super Roc Plastic Version yet ?

The Putt & Approach Version , you can throw turnover Putts with and the New Big Bead Version is really overstable !!!!!! :D

I still carry the Aviar X. One new one that's really stable and one really beat one for turnover shots !!!!! The X version seems to stick it the chains better , even when I'm slightly off line !!!!!

donny donny donny,
Good thing we weren't trying to copy or duplicate the Aviar, because we wouldn't have been very good tool builders.

I understand you love your Aviars and can admire your passion for your favorite putter, but you have to be realistic when it comes to the geometry of the part shape and the engineering of the polymer blends and realize there are so many differences.

I know Ive posted a link to this already but hey maybe posting the differences here will help you understand that we didn't copy the Aviar with the Wizard.
If you cant see the obvious differences in the Wizard and Aviar, then the Aviar should really be considered a copy of the Kitty Hawk in your eyes!!!!.

reading time below 2 minutes:
Take the time and read it twice ( 4 minutes ) :)

I will try to address some of the scientific or aerodynamic differences between the Wizard and Aviar.

First of all I believe the Wizard is a bit longer in flight than either the Aviar and just about all putters.
Most guys who can throw big with a putter will agree!

It is more based on gyroscopic effect, balance of air deflection and the materials on the surface of the discs.

The more matted the finish on the discs the less contact the air makes with the actual surface. We do this with the high end rubber that is dry blended in our batches. The rubber molds to the surface of the part making it a bit porous on the surface and it causes less surface friction and a reduction of drag!
The Wizards balance of air under and over the leading edge is much closer to Equal than the Aviar and that certainly adds to glide on decelaration. The Wizard has better stability for a wider range of Speeds.
A P & A will flip pretty quick when thrown hard and a KC will fade left more than a Wizard at low speeds.
Keeping in layman�s terms the wizards stability covers a much larger velocity range than either Aviar p&a or a big bead.

As for the technical reasons why, most are based on the angles of the deflection {wing vs. top or dome VS bead)!.

Here are a few others:
1) The Wizard is smaller in mass around 125 cubic CM and the Aviar is around 140 maybe 145.
This equates to less over all space taken up by the object.
If both discs were to weigh 175, the wizards� density would have to be 1.4 while the Aviar is only 1.2. Even with both discs weighing 175g the plastics in ours is heavier and even distributed much differently.

2) Besides the shape of the nose which is quite different the rim is still close in mass or size, to the Aviar.
The wizard has a .068 thick flight plate though and the Aviar is over .075. At 1-1/2" in from the outer edge of the Wizard, the flight plate begins to thicken and by the time it gets to the shoulder, (where the inside rim meets the flight plate) our thickness is up to .125 heading into the rim! Even soft wizards feel beefy at first, but you can break them in by flexing them. Because we use such high end rubbers the rebound resiliency( memory) is greater as is the abrasion resistance, so they come right back to shape only a bit more flexible.
The surface, even on firm wizards is still very grippy and tacky for grabbing chains.

The added thickness in the outer part of the rim helps tremendously in 2 different ways over the Aviar.
1st,, it adds structure stability to the over all shape of the disc by reinforcing it, because of the added thickness. Even a very used wizard will remain close to perfect roundness)
The 2nd function is adding to the gyroscopic-nature of the disc, Flat out a more gyroscopic disc will spin longer. The longer the spin, the longer a disc can hold a flight pattern. Bottom line, The Wizard is straighter and flies with a much tighter "S" pattern and will hold just about any line you put it on for a longer period of time whether its 30 feet or 300 feet, 20 mph or 70 MPH!!!!.

3rd)The thickness of outer part of the flight plate thins down quickly at the 1-1/2" mark to the thinner .063 ( compared to the .075 of the Aviar) This allows for a much better feel between your thumb and fingers when pinching the flight plate for putting, because they are closer together. You can get better touch with a thinner flight plate.

Besides all the technical mumble jumble, the real reason we feel our putters are more successful is the range of grips and feels. Its like buying a good micro brew compared to the same old bud light! (No offense Dave D, but we spend hours dry blending formulas for 200-1200 disc batches and I'm sure your way past that stage for the putters)
It takes up a lot of time and causes funky weights and blended colors!
We may run a 60 disc batch and make it softer or firmer and then blend and run a 300 lb batch.

Every player seems to like a different aspect of a putter.
You wind up using it on every single and sometimes more than once, so you better really like it!!!!
A lot of people are playing with and liking the wizard for all shots under 300 feet!
We sell a lot of them and will soon be selling a lot more!

We are working on some packaging for the wizard and they should wind up in some of the big box retailers and more existing disc golf outlets.
!!!

for those of you who would like to see our discs on shelves in your area, please send any new store contact information to [email protected] and we will send you out some free Putters for the leads.

BTW,
While the Aviar may still be #1 in overall sales, in the stores where we are selling Wizards and Warlocks head to head and have close to equal shelf space, we are out selling Aviars in almost all cases!

If you're saying that the Wizard is not a COPY of the Aviar, I might believe you. If your saying that it's your improvement of the Aviar, I might believe you. But you will never convince me it is not BASED on the Aviar. With all your years of playing, I'm sure you never threw or even held an Aviar. You never saw the improvement over existing discs of the early 80's when you decided to start making your own discs. Just because a disc was based on an existing disc from another manufacturer, does not make it a bad disc. I guess you believe Discraft made completely new discs when they released the Wasp and Challenger, (after Cam Todd went with them and told them he needed a Roc and a BB Aviar) because the geometry and enginering are SO different. I wish Cam had kept playing long enough for Discraft to come out with a Teebird!

If you're saying that the Wizard is not a COPY of the Aviar, I might believe you. If your saying that it's your improvement of the Aviar, I might believe you. But you will never convince me it is not BASED on the Aviar. With all your years of playing, I'm sure you never threw or even held an Aviar. You never saw the improvement over existing discs of the early 80's when you decided to start making your own discs. Just because a disc was based on an existing disc from another manufacturer, does not make it a bad disc. I guess you believe Discraft made completely new discs when they released the Wasp and Challenger, (after Cam Todd went with them and told them he needed a Roc and a BB Aviar) because the geometry and enginering are SO different. I wish Cam had kept playing long enough for Discraft to come out with a Teebird!



Im guessing this is all sarcasm.


From what I understand, McCormack was once a big Innova fan and threw an Aviar as far or farther than anyone. Im also told he was a pretty good player, good enough to understand what changes could be made to certain discs to enhance thier performance.

I guess people that have gone over the wheel and made improvements over time really have ruined it, as we should all be riding around on rocks. Small differences can make a drastic change.

If you dont, wont, or cant see the differences between an Avair and a Wizard, your in denial.( It sucks, I know, Ive been there.) Hold them up to each other, then take them out and put them to the test. Your arguement would hold more weight if you were talking about the Warlock, and even then its iffy. Warlocks, imo, perform better than DX Aviars in every aspect except 20-25ft putts,( which is huge, but really is based on my putting style, not an overall. ) which for some reason the Warlocks like to bounce too much. The SSSs could cure that though.

I use both a Wizard and an Aviar, and when the seasons over Ill spend more time with the Warlock, as to me its a better feeling putter than the Aviar. I dont putt much with the Wizard, I use them mainly for approach....and they produce. The only disc that can hang with them is a KC 10x Aviar that has been seasoned. If its new it has way more fall off at the end, unless you want that, which is just a little more hyser on the Wizard.

At Iron Lion, David is correct...Wizards are and have been outselling Aviars...but so are the Warlocks.

BTW, this isnt a post to knock on Aviars. Ive used them since I started and have tried all kinds of other putters out there, always coming back to an Aviar of some sort. I still have 2-3 in my bag at any time. A beat flippy DX, a 9x for straight short approachs, and a Star for putting. I have a whole box full of Aviars and the store sells lots of them. But other discs are replacing them.

It's not all sarcasm...

I didn't say that the Wizard is an exact COPY of the Aviar, it's not. BUT, as you say, hold them up to each other. If you can't see that they are similar (NOT EXACT), that the concept for the Wizard or any other Aviar-like putter did not come from the Aviar, then maybe you are the one that is in denial. I think it's great that there is more than one disc company. It's great that there are people that are trying to improve disc golf discs. Competition between disc companies will only improve the game. I'm really not knocking Gateway or Discraft or any company. It just seems odd that someone who, as you said, threw the Aviar as well as anyone, would make a disc that has "small differences" and try to convince everyone that it is SO different and not even remotely based on the Aviar. What's wrong with saying that he made an improved version of an already great disc?

As I stated before, I actually like the Wizard. And like you, I've tried many different putters, but always come back to the Aviar. It just works better for me.

If you're saying that the Wizard is not a COPY of the Aviar, I might believe you. If your saying that it's your improvement of the Aviar, I might believe you. But you will never convince me it is not BASED on the Aviar. With all your years of playing, I'm sure you never threw or even held an Aviar. You never saw the improvement over existing discs of the early 80's when you decided to start making your own discs. Just because a disc was based on an existing disc from another manufacturer, does not make it a bad disc. I guess you believe Discraft made completely new discs when they released the Wasp and Challenger, (after Cam Todd went with them and told them he needed a Roc and a BB Aviar) because the geometry and enginering are SO different. I wish Cam had kept playing long enough for Discraft to come out with a Teebird!



They did Trackers ;)

Tracker is more of a TL ;)

Of course the inspiration for the wizard was the Aviar.
I think they used to call me Daviar :)
At one time I had 40 bead-less Aviars that I used for training and when the big beads came out, I could throwm them with full power and have no fear of them turning over.
I also begged Dave D to make BB in a softer putter type plastic. This was in 1988, but the soft BB didnt come out until about 1994 with the NEW DX and the small innova bar stamp I got from Bob Dodge in texas at worlds), now they are much softer and called the JK!

In case you didnt know I sold Whammo, DGA, Destiny, innova, Discraft and lightning discs for 14 years before we started making our own discs.

Anyway back on topic,,, my responses were to Donny or others who felt like we ( Gateway or Quest) just tried to copy our competitors discs:
Its just not true!

Here is the quote:
"The Aviar has been copied by All , but never Duplicated !!!!! and Aviar is still # 1 "

If I were Donny I would have probably written;
Many companies have tried to improve on the Aviar but in my opinion have fallen short, The Aviar is still #1 and I have no use for anything else!

He makes a statement that seems like its based on some sort of unbiased facts. Its his opinion, and I say its not accurate or based on facts!
I'm pretty sure Donny emailed me at one time telling me how kick [censored] the Wizards were and he really liked the feel and that even he was throwing them farther!!!

We have done a pretty good job of designing discs that are not "just copies" of other discs.
So it gets kind of old hearing we are copying discs when its far from the truth.

You dont see me on here claiming the Tee-tex and Max are just copies of the Illusion and Blurr, which could be a somewhat accurate statement.
Check the rim width of the Illusion to other discs before it came out and check out the rim width of the discs they are releasing now. I think you will see that possibly others are copying our discs now.

With the new dimple technology discs we are producing, Innova is caught in a catch 22.
If they make DT discs they will have to admit they fell behind in new discs technology (BTW,,,, THEY HAVE). If they dont make them, they will start losing sales to new players who can tell after just a few throws that DT discs will go farther for them and again we are matching or ahead in sales in stores that are giving us shelf space.

The industry of discs golf is getting ready to get very competitive where it counts the most, with new players at retail stores.
This will only benefit everyone involved in disc golf as the market is getting ready to REALLY expand. Currently there are about 6000 places that sell discs ( if you count clubs, events, and trunks) Its going to jump to 12,000 within a few years and then to 50,000 stores once Nike starts making discs!
It would be of all disc golfers best interest to embrace new companies ( especially those who are still making products in the good ole USA) and support anyone that is helping grow the game of disc golf through advertising and marketing of their products and the game of disc golf in general.



off topic rant, but might be worth reading!

What really needs to happen is that the industry of disc golf course design and installation needs to exist as a profitable part of the equation.
As the demand for disc golf grows it would be better if a company could make money designing and installing disc golf courses without having to compete with people, clubs, etc that are out there doing it for no profit and in some cases even free.
Our local club and I have been responsible for designing and installing many courses around the ST Louis area for free and now park departments here as well as around the country sometimes just wait around for someone to put one in for free, which is holding up the amount of courses that are going in.
This starts and stops with those who just sell baskets and not course design and installation.
A parallel example would be some of this new cool play ground equipment. These companies just don't start start selling these products to the Parents of kids who are going to use the playground as its pretty important that the equipment is installed correctly, same goes for disc golf courses.
Besides the money is not in the hardwarefor the playground but in the installation or built into the "whole package" of hardware, design and installation.

My next high horse would be on pay to play.
If the 1st and every subsequent disc golf course installed were to cost a player $2-$5 per round and the rounds thems sleves would actually be revenue generating I am guessing there would be well over 20,000 disc golf courses in the ground today instead of the 2,600 or so.
Don't get me wrong I really appreciated the fact that I was 16 and could go play disc golf for free all day long!!!
Its really hard to turn back the hands of time, but I truly believe there are a lot of players who are willing to pay a few bucks for the experience of a disc golf facility in terms of benches, carts, club houses and little hotties driving out ice cold beers to you while on the course instead of lugging around coolers!!!

sorry to ramble on off topic, I just couldnt stop typing!..
I better get out and finish off the final stages of a new course design before it gets too dark!

Thanks for reading!

Thank you. How very refreshing to read someone actually admit that one disc was the inspiration for another!
I think when most people refer to a disc being a "copy" of another, they really mean it's their "version" of said disc. I'll try to remember to use "version" in the future.

Back to the question: Aviars, are they the ONLY putter?
No, of course not. But they are the best for me :)



So, how many other discs have you copied? J/K! :)

You dont see me on here claiming the Tee-tex and Max are just copies of the Illusion and Blurr, which could be a somewhat accurate statement.
Check the rim width of the Illusion to other discs before it came out and check out the rim width of the discs they are releasing now. I think you will see that possibly others are copying our discs now.

With the new dimple technology discs we are producing, Innova is caught in a catch 22.
If they make DT discs they will have to admit they fell behind in new discs technology (BTW,,,, THEY HAVE). If they dont make them, they will start losing sales to new players who can tell after just a few throws that DT discs will go farther for them and again we are matching or ahead in sales in stores that are giving us shelf space.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...And if they start making them, they become the best thing since sliced bread? Its as if you imply that if they follow suit or admit someone else jumped them in technology that they will crumble. I think you know thats incorrect as , in reality, the only people who care about things like that are in here on this message board. Disc Golf Joe doesnt care about who released what disc first, as they are either directed towards a certain product due to word of mouth or advertising. How the disc can immediately effect thier performance is a selling point for dealers, but for the most part, disc golf is still a popularity contest.

This board doesnt sell enough discs for the manufactors to really give a **** what we think. The truth is, they dont even need the PDGA or its players in support of thier product, and as you said, the marketplace is heating up, but its not just PDGA members making purchases. Those numbers are extremly small, and although the info we provide to them on this board could be viewed as important, we are basically a very small portion of what people wanting to sell discs figure on.

So they have to admit they arent the leader in disc technology, big deal, the impact on sales isnt going to put a big enough dent in to not make a dimpled disc. Right now it seems the consensus form Innova backers is that the DT is gimmicky, and Im sure its a stance they will keep until Innova releases a similar "but better" version....and Im sure thats how it will be marketed.

My fav putter is the Avair. Also fav putter of Ken, Barry, Dave, Avery, Juliana , Des, Val, Angie...



I believe that Juliana won all of her world championships putting with a magnet. :eek:

Don't get me wrong, though, I think the Aviar was a great rough draft for the Wizard! ;)


Juliana may have won her first couple of world championships with a Magnet, but the last few were with an Aviar.



I could be wrong, but once a player is sponsored by a disc manufacturer, don't they have to throw their plastic? Or is it just cheaper? All the players mentioned above are Innova sponsored players and I'd expect them to throw Aviars.

That said - it's a great putter, but as others have mentioned, there are other great putters as well. Just like in golf, it's all about the feel and the confidence the disc inspires in the player. Could be color, weight, feel, a great shot - just about anything that works.

I've read before that if you're having a bad putting streak, the quickest way to improve your putting again is to use a different putter.

I started out with the Aviar, and I recommend the Aviar P&A to new players, but my main putter for the past several months has and will now continue to be the Wizard. With Aviars, I needed one for short drives, and one for putting, and sometimes a beat one for turnover short drives, and then a Rhyno for windy putts but when I started throwing the E Wizard I got the whole package in one disc!

The Wizard boosted my confidence in my putting game almost immediately because I didnt need to fumble through my bag looking for which Aviar I needed for each particular shot.

But there's the case of one of my friends who started with Aviars, but for months now as well he switched to the Soft Challenger and he's one of the best putters in all of BG, and one of the best putters I've seen period. With Aviars and Wizards his putting game goes to crap.

Then there's my other friend who throws KC Aviars, and has tried the others but found the KC to be the best fit for him. While I personally love the Wizard and will forever live and die by this disc, it's more about personal preference and experimentation. Find what works for you, buy a stack and putt away!

Pardon the thread drift, I know we should start a whole new thread for where this is going!

Chase,
Not sure I was implying any company would crumble, I'm a realistic person.
Innova products are great, their players are great and their customers are pretty dang loyal!

The pie of disc golf products is about $25 million a year and Innova has about 80% market share, probably more like 90% if you are just counting discs!
If the pie increases to $50 million they wont really be able to hold onto the 90% market share so easy, especially if some or most of the new stores don't even sell Innova.

If you think admitting to being " jumped a bit in technology" is no big deal for them think again, your way off base.
It means a lot to Dave and Harold to be number one in innovation, its part of their slogan!
If your not number one in disc technology the slogan is just not as effective.
Of course they will remain # 1 in sales, at least until Nike makes discs and you will see Abercrombie and Fitch kids turn to Nike like the head of a 21 year old ( guy or girl) at a strip club! Like you said, its a popularity contest now and will be even more if Nike gets in!

Hey, The Nike plant is just outside of St Louis County and I have been talking to them for about 10 years. They always listen to what I have to say and at times seem rather interested in what I have to say about disc golf. I could sell my company to Nike tomorrow and go to work for them full time recruiting players and installing disc golf courses. Just might call them and see if they are interested in what I have to offer!
You need a job on the traveling, design and installation crew?? :)

Let me ask you straight up Chase, do you feel players who can throw less than 400 feet are able to throw discs with dimple technology farther than discs without?


I know the answer and have witnessed the extra Distance from several new and experienced players first hand over the last year. In fact almost every player that has thrown discs with dimple technology say they are their longest flying discs, the word of mouth marketing doesn't get any better than that!!

Many players are very excited about our discs with Dimple technology and its far from gimmicky, don't you think dimples on a golf ball make them go farther with more control?
If they were just on there for a gimmick they would have been off a long time ago!

Why in the world wouldn't this apply to golf discs?
Spinning projectile with lift and drag,,,, ummmm!
Seems to make sense to me!

Its the natural evolution of the golf disc as is the fact that disc golf will be played on ball golf courses in the future!

There is a huge need for competition in this industry at the retail stores, which will result in the need for more advertising and marketing of your products to be and stay competitive. This will help grow the exposure of the game and the demand for more courses will increase as well.
A disc golf course is the best bang for the buck that a park department can spend their money on these days.
Its getting harder and harder to allocate 70K for a tennis court, 150 K for an amphitheater, 500 K for a swimming pool or skate park or a few million for a paved trail.

$12k-$20K for a disc golf course that can be played year round with almost no additional significant spending in the future will be really in demand over the next,,,,,,oh lets say 20 years to forever!!!!!