I can't believe this is a new topic, but I did a keyword search for "speed" and couldn't find anything.

Could someone give me a brief (technical or layman's terminology is fine) explanation of what "speed" means when attached to a disc rating?

The only thing I can figure is that speed means if you throw to discs equally hard, one will get there faster if it has more speed....but does that mean one will go longer? (Isn't that "glide")?

Example: At Innova's sight a "Monster" has a Speed of "10" a Glide of "3" a Turn of "0' and a Fade of "5" while a "Firebird" has a Speed of "9," a Glide of "3" and Turn of "0" and a Fade of "4." These seem to be very similar discs in terms of characteristics, with the key difference being that the Monster is "faster." Okay, so how does that translate to flight characteristics? If I make the exact same throw with a Monster and a Firebird (under the same conditions), will the only difference be slightly more fade? (If so, when and why is speed relevant?)

Do you have to throw a faster disc harder to get the same amount of distance, or does the speed just mean it won't turn? If there is no difference in distance, when do you want to throw a "faster" disc? (I note in Innova's site that they have distances attached to the flight characteristics of the Monster but not the Firebird.)

I'm not trying to be obtuse or anything...it just seems like Fade/Glide/and Turn all describe things the disc will do differently whereas Speed just describes how fast it will do it. (Perhaps if you are shooting out of an enclosed space and want your drive to clear quickly before it turns or fades you might want it to "jump" or get through its flight quicker?)

--(I don't throw a Monster or a Firebird, I just picked them because their listed characteristics were so similar.)

Thanks for any explanations.

Ken

Increase of speed will decrease stability.
decrease of speed will increase stability.

A faster disc will have to be thrown " faster " to achieve its desired flight characteristics. Translation : if you have a big arm, throw fast plastic.

If you have a weaker arm, faster plastic will act more stable for you.

Now , if you have a big arm, and throw slower rated plastic, you will experience a decrease in stablilty.

Simple enough?

I'm not sure if I can give you a satisfactory definition of Innova's speed ratings, but I think a lot of players consider speed as a factor in how far they can throw the disc on a line at various heights. The distance a very fast disc (i.e. firebird or monster) travels is almost a factor of how far it can get in the few seconds before gravity takes over... there is very little glide involved. Slower discs (an extreme example would be a putter) tend to have more float and glide, but must be thrown much higher to achieve distance. In short, plenty of people can throw a slow disc 300 or more feet, but few can do it 10 feet off the ground like they can with a driver. One advantage of a slow disc, however, is that the slower speed makes them more forgiving of a misjudgement or misthrow distance wise.

I don't know if that helps. I'm sure someone else can explain it better.

according to just speed, a monster should go further than the firebird. glide is how long a disc will still fly after losing alot of its initial speed. speed is simply how fast it will penetrate the air, a putter will slow down fast because of its low speed, wherear a wraith will keep flying really fast for hundreds of feet and can get more distance on a low line drive shot.

You should ask Dave Dunnipace on the thread for asking Dave Dunnipace stuff. I think "Speed" really means "Aerodynamic" or the opposite of "Drag." A high speed disc has a low profile. It's beadless. The wing is pretty flat underneath. So it does not have features that slow it down quickly like a putter or beaded midrange might have.

An 11 speed disc is like a 18 speed bicycle. Neither one is that fast if its owner doesn't have what it takes to get it going.

My interpretation of speed is more along the lines of "distance potential."

I think "Speed" really means "Aerodynamic" or the opposite of "Drag." A high speed disc has a low profile. It's beadless. The wing is pretty flat underneath. So it does not have features that slow it down quickly like a putter or beaded midrange might have.

An 11 speed disc is like a 18 speed bicycle. Neither one is that fast if its owner doesn't have what it takes to get it going.



Speed is related directly to drag. This is most notable when throwing upwind. Speed is not related to stability. Speed is indirectly related to distance. Downwind, speed per se is not much help compared to glide. Upwind, speed is everything. Speed discs need a fast thrower to make them effective. The heavier a speed disc is, the more effective it is into the wind, provided the thrower is strong enough and fast enough. This is also true of overhead shots and rollers. Distance throwers rarely use speed discs unless it is in a combination with glide (like a Pro Wraith), and usually then in lower weights.

things to take into consideration about speed.

faster discs are generally more nose angle sensitive.
if you cant get the disc to its "cruise speed" it will act more stable.

Shots that require more penetration (thumbers, knife hyzers and other shots that dont rely on glide) faster discs will generally go faster will generally go further.

that and everything dave D said, of course he knows his stuff.

Thanks. These are all helpful. To summarize, what I take from the replies is:
1) A higher speed disc must be thrown harder (actually "faster", i.e. with more spin) to get its intended flight path.

2) If an "8" disc is thrown such that it follows its intended flight path, a "9" or "10" disc thrown with exactly the same amount of spin/force will go into a fade quicker (assuming you are right handed throwing backhand)...therefore a higher speed disc will rarely get a player more distance unless he or she is throwing it harder.

3) Throwing into a headwind is an exception to #1 and #2 above.

It appears to me that faster rated discs skip more when they hit the ground (perhaps because they are still spinning when they hit the earth), so sometimes a Wraith and a Whippet might have very similar flight characteristics for me, with the exception that the Wraith will go into a hyzer and then skip for even more fade...I'm assuming this means that I am not throwing the Wraith fast enough to use it as a distance driver. (I normally throw Leopards, Sidewinders, or Roadrunners).

I have to disagree with your equating throwing harder and faster with "more spin." I think it is possible to throw with more spin without throwing faster. If you've ever watched freestylers throw to each other with lots of spin for nail delays, you'll see that they throw relatively slow in terms of speed, but with lots of spin.

I'm wondering if "Speed" as a rating is not purely airspeed, but is somehow a ratio of airspeed to spin? I have noticed that if you throw at similar velocities but with different rates of spin, the throw with more spin will have greater stability, while the throw with less spin will be less stable (or "flippy"). Feedback?

I think "Speed" really means "Aerodynamic" or the opposite of "Drag." A high speed disc has a low profile. It's beadless. The wing is pretty flat underneath. So it does not have features that slow it down quickly like a putter or beaded midrange might have.

An 11 speed disc is like a 18 speed bicycle. Neither one is that fast if its owner doesn't have what it takes to get it going.



Speed is related directly to drag. This is most notable when throwing upwind. Speed is not related to stability. Speed is indirectly related to distance. Downwind, speed per se is not much help compared to glide. Upwind, speed is everything. Speed discs need a fast thrower to make them effective. The heavier a speed disc is, the more effective it is into the wind, provided the thrower is strong enough and fast enough. This is also true of overhead shots and rollers. Distance throwers rarely use speed discs unless it is in a combination with glide (like a Pro Wraith), and usually then in lower weights.



This is very interesting, I had always assumed speed meant rotational speed. I always assumed that speed meant more distance with lower flight paths, that is if you have two discs with the same glide, the one with more speed would travel further. Your definition makes it appear that speed has one real value, distance into the wind. Is that correct?

Akin to car aerodynamics, I see a disc's speed rating as a measure of frontal/profile area. The less space a disc takes up, the faster its potential in that it should/would slow down more slowly...and the less drag there would be given a nose down flight attitude. Here is where wing~width can make a big difference...but it also complicates this issue by being more temperamental.
.02

This is very interesting, I had always assumed speed meant rotational speed. I always assumed that speed meant more distance with lower flight paths, that is if you have two discs with the same glide, the one with more speed would travel further. Your definition makes it appear that speed has one real value, distance into the wind. Is that correct?



Yes, essentially. For overheads, it allows the disc to hold speed through the air longer, for longer shots. And it is less affected by cross winds and micro bursts. Speed discs are more ballistic and are operated properly by more force.

Akin to car aerodynamics, I see a disc's speed rating as a measure of frontal/profile area. The less space a disc takes up, the faster its potential in that it should/would slow down more slowly...and the less drag there would be given a nose down flight attitude. Here is where wing~width can make a big difference...but it also complicates this issue by being more temperamental.
.02


This would suggest then that speed in general would lead to more distance, less drag/more distance; that doesn't seem to be what Dave is saying but I may be wrong. Also, why would you call it speed given this definition? I would refer to it as aerodynamics. I'm still having trouble with the concept. Speed is often used as a measure of value, i.e. there's no question people bought the heck out of Wraiths and T-Rexs because of their higher speed. What were they getting?

Finally, the Firebird is one of the bluntest drivers (on the edge) on the market, yet it's speed is relatively high. I'm still missing something. Dave, how is speed measured on a disc?

Akin to car aerodynamics, I see a disc's speed rating as a measure of frontal/profile area. The less space a disc takes up, the faster its potential in that it should/would slow down more slowly...and the less drag there would be given a nose down flight attitude. Here is where wing~width can make a big difference...but it also complicates this issue by being more temperamental.
.02


This would suggest then that speed in general would lead to more distance, less drag/more distance; that doesn't seem to be what Dave is saying but I may be wrong. Also, why would you call it speed given this definition? I would refer to it as aerodynamics. I'm still having trouble with the concept. Speed is often used as a measure of value, i.e. there's no question people bought the heck out of Wraiths and T-Rexs because of their higher speed. What were they getting?

Finally, the Firebird is one of the bluntest drivers (on the edge) on the market, yet it's speed is relatively high. I'm still missing something. Dave, how is speed measured on a disc?



Higher speed is basically lower wind resistance. Glide is the element you are missing. Glide is what allows the disc to fly. Glide is lift. Speed with glide certainly does equate to more distance provided the disc can be thrown at the same initial velocity. That is not a certainty as many people cannot properly grip the wider rimmed discs. Wraiths, TeeRexes, and Maxes are all fast discs, but the Max is a speed disc, because it doesn't have the lift of the other two. The lift allows a disc to be thrown at lower velocities. It can then fly like a wing. Speed discs penetrate through the air more like a stone than a wing. This is all relative of course. A Max does have lift, but not enough to be operated at slow speeds. A Max can be thrown very well at high speeds, but at lower speeds it crashes and burns.

Thanks Dave! That really helps alot.