Here's a question:

A storm rolls through the course the night (or morning) before a tournament and knocks down several big branches, some still good (alive and green) others obviously dead. Too many for the event staff to effectively remove them all. During the course of the first round, a player lands in the middle of a pile of dead stuff. The player may not move anything between his lie and the hole, but can he move or break off stuff behind his lie in order to establish a legal stance? Providing he doesn't move anything in front of his lie, 803.05 seems to indicate this would be allowed.

you can move whatever is behind your lie but nothing in front of it.

I think the answer is exactly correct. My question would be whether the TD would have the discretion to make an annoucement at the player's meeting taking into account the recent storm and advising that <font color="red"> any </font> dead branches on the gound could be removed. These would not have been intended to be hazards. It would seem to me that if the TD is aware of the situation and its as bad as the orginal poster mentioned, that he or she ought to make such an announcement or announce that he or she intends the course to be more difficult than advertised and that everybody should play 'em where they lie and just deal with it.

I believe tour officials made exception to this rule for this year's HOF tournament at the IDGC in Augusta, GA. Players could move unattached debris from the course/fairway, even if it was in front of their lie, as long as the players moved the debris to a better place off the fairway/hole. Several players who attended the event said numerous folks cleared debris as they played the rounds and that both courses looked significantly cleaner after the event was over.

I'm assuming the exception to the rule was previously approved by the competition director prior to the event.

If I had to deal with that issue I would call the Tour Manager, explain the situation and see if I could get a special condition for removing the downed branches regardless of where they are in relation to your lie. Really, just get his advice on what to do...even if the answer is different from my request.

It hasn't actually come up yet, but playing the other day after a wicked storm the night before, I could see it happening. We get some really crazy storms here some nights, and with the big, old Elms at our course, deadfall is a given. And I mean BIG stuff!

A week ago, a storm blew over (yes, blew it OVER!!!) a Cottonwood tree near the practice basket. Missed it by 6 feet! An otherwise seemingly healthy tree on the bank of the creek, just toppled due to high winds. :eek:

If that had happened the night of the Shootout, the temporary hole using the practice basket would have played a lot differently. Would a player be allowed to climb into the fallen canopy to take a stance at their lie and remove "recently living" branches from behind to allow for a stance or wind up/delivery? There is no way we could have removed it in such short notice, it took the Parks crews 3 days to get it out of the area.

Now I get a better picture of the scenario. And, I can totally see that happening in Amarillo. Thats a tough one. Of course, it would create one of those stance restricting 'sand traps' that you've been wanting to try ;)

It seems like 5 meters of relief is whats allowed according to the rules. If more than 5 meters is needed, maybe the Tour Manager could grant a special condition to allow as much relief as neccessary...given the circumstances regarding this kind of obstacle. That way, the player wouldnt have to climb inside the branch, saving scratches on the legs, maybe slipping and hurting themselves in some way. If its REALLY, REALLY big...maybe we just wish everyone good luck :D

The rules don't limit relief to 5m if TD specifies more. In 803.05 C(2):

If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player�s lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director).

All that is understood, but what if the tree **edit** (I mean branches) is situated so that backwards on the line of play takes you into (or over) the creek?

Well, there you go. So I guess no permission is neccessary if you want to use relief for this kind of scenario. As to the original quesiton, if the branches are connected to something thats between your lie and the hole I dont see where you could move/remove anything. Maybe I am missing something?

On the dead stuff, I could see where a player would be limited with range of motion on the wind up/delivery. If it's dead and no longer connected to the tree, why couldn't the player break off or remove enough to make a throw?

Has anybody ever thought of or attempted to make a video version of the rules to help with the written interputation?

The closest they got with video was a rules segment on each episode of the defunct disc TV that aired on cable several years ago.

An even trickier situation is when the tree tips over but is still alive. You can see that near creek banks here and there.

isnt it that nothing between the lie and the hole can be moved without incurring an instant penalty with no warning?

That's mostly true. There are some caveats (ie. A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as spectators, players� equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round.)

or branches that fell during the round


I've got a problem with this one. It's loaded with potential for abuse. I understand the premise that if group A played a hole without a big branch on the ground, then the branch fell, and then group B played the hole with the shot obstructed it'd be fundamentally unfair to B and beyond.

In many cases, however, a player could be in the schule with their flight path partially blocked by a big branch on the ground and honestly not know if it'd fallen during that round. I believe that an honest player, given no direct evidence that it did in fact fall during the round, would not take relief. The morally flexible player, however, would conclude that it may have fallen during the round and that's sufficient evidence to say that it definitely did fall during the round and remove the obstacle.

I think we want to minimize rules that require speculation. Maybe the rule could be re-written to say that "if the group unanimously agrees that a tree branch between the player's lie . . . " or something along those lines.

There really is no speculation in the current rule. If you didn't see it come down during the round, then you don't know and cannot move it under that premise. Then again, there is nothing to prevent a group of players from colluding to say that they saw it fall, but I think that would be unlikely.

You're right, my bad:

A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as spectators, players� equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round. Where it is not known if an obstacle has become a factor during a round, it shall not be moved.

There really is no speculation in the current rule. If you didn't see it come down during the round, then you don't know and cannot move it under that premise. Then again, there is nothing to prevent a group of players from colluding to say that they saw it fall, but I think that would be unlikely.



The rule is direct and clear. Don't move it! That is why I posted above querrying whether the TD would have the discretion to make exceptions in very weird conditions. Absent something from the TD and absent the TD being able to make surch a pronuncement you play it where it lies and the only thing you should pick up is garbage (former boy scout- always leave the camp site cleaner than you found it.)

Good one, Denny....

"morally flexible"

i might have this wrong, but i seem to remember relaxing that rule in certain cases where the course was brand new and had lots of clearing left to be done. the IDGC opening comes to mind, but i dont remember if that was for the casual rounds before the event, or for the actual event.

It was for the actual event. It was announced that players could move debris if they moved it off the fairway. A reasonable decision on a barely-finished, or not-quite-finished, course.

Good one, Denny....

"morally flexible"


hehe....yeah, I laughed out loud when I read that

[QUOTE]
There really is no speculation in the current rule. If you didn't see it come down during the round, then you don't know and cannot move it under that premise. Then again, there is nothing to prevent a group of players from colluding to say that they saw it fall, but I think that would be unlikely.

What about when you see the chains on a basket that are twisted. Must you assume they have been that way all day, or can you walk up and set them straight?

I think you can start from the presumption that the baskets were in their proper positions at the start of the round even if they weren't. So by default any changes would have occurred during the round allowing you to replace them. I think that applies to tee pads also. Brushing off the tee pads during the round when they get dusty or tree droppings of some sort fall on them would be presumed to have occurred after the round started allowing you to clear the tee. Since you can release from the whole teeing area (assuming a hard surface pad), you wouldn't be at fault for clearing something "in front of your lie" but being allowed to clear something that became a factor during the round.