Interesting revelation from Am Nats this last weekend - Innova's SL (Starfire L) isn't legal in PDGA tournament play. I don't play this disc, but it came as a nasty shock to some of the competitors when this bit of news was announced at the player's meeting. Even though I was pretty sure the guys at Discraft did their homework, I thought I'd check the list when I got home, sure enough, no SL. Is this an oversight? or has the disc even been submitted for approval? Anyway, heads up to anyone who's got it in their bag.

The SL (Starfire-L) was submitted to the PDGA for recertification this week and should appear on the approved disc list soon.

Good shooting with you this past weekend Patrick, congrats on the strong finish!

The SL issue came about on another forum which was where Discraft learned of it not being included on the list. A few things that they didn't mention though was that the Buzzz GT and Buzzz SS are also not on that list either, so those are also not legal for play.

I was told by a Discraft rep that the Buzzz SS is approved and legal. Not sure about the GT.

Anyone else think an apology from Innova is in order?

no

I had 4 SL's that I had to take out of my bag at AM Nats..pretty big void there.

I checked with the Tech Standards committee after learning at the DGLO that the SL was not on the list of discs legal for PDGA tournament use. Tech Standards a/k/a Jeff Homburg confirmed that the SL was not legal for PDGA tournament use.

When someone brought up the issue of the Buzzz GT and Buzzz SS and Avenger SS, I checked again with Tech Standards. Those discs are approved.

The PDGA rules for what has to be submitted are arcane. Innova may have legitimately thought that the SL did not need to be submitted because it is just an abbreviation for Starfire-L and the Starfire had been approved. Whatever, when the PDGA told them otherwise, they could have just paid the fee and submitted the disc, rather than waiting for some TD to get wise and enforce the rules.

Anyone else think an apology from Innova is in order?



I wouldnt think it was out of order, but wouldnt expect it either.

I don't understand how you can change the mold and not have to recertify the disc as long as you don't change the name. That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It explains why these discs are changing and they don't change the name. Pretty soon every disc will have the same name.

Isn't the SL the same mold as the Starfire-L (pro plastic)? If so then it's the same disc and they just shorted the name to distinguish it from the Starfire-X. Seems stupid to me if the mold already exists that they would have to get approval. But if the Starfire-L (pro plastic) is the same mold as the X then I guess it should be approved. Of course after I read what I just wrote it doesn't make any sense. New names for new discs would be much easier.

Interesting revelation from Am Nats this last weekend - Innova's SL (Starfire L) isn't legal in PDGA tournament play. I don't play this disc, but it came as a nasty shock to some of the competitors when this bit of news was announced at the player's meeting. Even though I was pretty sure the guys at Discraft did their homework, I thought I'd check the list when I got home, sure enough, no SL. Is this an oversight? or has the disc even been submitted for approval? Anyway, heads up to anyone who's got it in their bag.



Just to clarify the situation. I don't work for Discraft.
And there were 2 other discs, one from Discraft that was not legal as well.
I was not picking on any company in particular, just enforcing the rules that had been brought to my attention. :D

What were the other 2 disc?

The One Disc Challenge prototype Pulse-Surge spawn was ruled not legal because it has never been submitted. The third disc is on the list of approved discs and is legal as far as I know, so I won't repeat the libel that it is not.

Someone more adventurous will, I'm sure.

They said it was legal and on the list, but there weren't 1,500 available yet in the general population which made it illegal for play.

The third disc is the Great and Mighty Turbo Putter of Awesome Justice from QuestAT.


-Chris.
extensive name elaboration my own

the banning of the SL at the amNats provided an incredible moment of disc golf hilarity for my buddy who knew that (was) my go to driver
cackling while the blood drained from my face...

hope they can push it through soon

Dave-

Is the SL approved for PDGA tournament use? This quote was taken from another board:

I think I would tell them that the SL is not approved for PDGA tournament use, if I saw anyone throwing it. I think I will announce it at IOS 3.

This is not an oversight on Innova's part. They know that the SL is not on the list because they never submitted it, and that it is not approved for PDGA tournament use.

The rule that a disc must be on the approved list to be used in a tournament is in the rule book.





Dave D from Innova responded with this.
The Starfire L, Firebird L, and TeeBird L were all approved and in production before we shortened the names to the abbreviations SL, FL, and TL. At this point Homburg decided this was a name change and the discs, which were already certified, had to be recertified. We market the Starfire L, the Firebird L, and TeeBird L as the original models with a shortened designation, not a name change like Sniper to Gremlin, which was a name change. Regardless, we have already recertified the FL, TL, and Gremlin. We will recertify the SL soon. In the meantime, if you play with a disc called Starfire L, it should be legal, as it was before the name abbreviation. If you play with a disc called SL, it may not be.



This is from the Ask Dave D topic it might help some people out . Basically it was not a mold change just a name change. And they are working it out with the PDGA .

[QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
We will recertify the SL soon. In the meantime, if you play with a disc called Starfire L, it should be legal, as it was before the name abbreviation. If you play with a disc called SL, it may not be.




Where can I find the stamp removal thread again? :p

This just in:


Subject: Approval of Starfire L (SL)



Innova-Champion Discs, Inc.recently submitted the Starfire L (SL)for PDGA testing. This disc passed all PDGA tests, so I've added it to the list of PDGA-approved discs (attached).Test measurements are listed below.



DISContinuously,
Jeff Homburg (#1025)


Technical Standards Chair



It now shows on the Approved Discs List (http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf)

Sweet so it is legal now .

The reality of the situation is that there are 3 different versions of the Starfire mold. The original, the L and the X. The original mold was used exclusively as part of the CFR program and was short lived as it evolved into the SL mold fairly quickly, which also for a short time was part of the CFR program. In fact I remember getting CFR Starfires for the Sarasota tournaments a couple years ago and receiving half in one mold and half in the other. Last to arrive was the X mold which I believe debuted at the USDGC in 2004 and had a cool "flaming" Star Stamp. The stock Champion and Star Starfires use the X mold, the Pro Starfire and Star SL use the L. The Champion SL still exists as a custom/CFR disc only.

In addition to the confusion already mentioned, Monsters and Firebirds have 3 different molds, Gators have 2, Classic Rocs 2, Beasts 2, Eagles 2, Teebirds 2. These are all recent modifications and doesn't include the multiple versions of some of the older molds like Gazelles and Birdies. I've wondered why Innova and other companies have ignored this issue, but no one seemed to care a whole lot about this issue or take it seriously until recently. It's about time in my opinion.

I agree that anytime a manufacturer tweaks a mold, it needs to be resubmitted, but not if your just shortening the name from Teebird-L to TL for example, that's a bit ridiculous. Consider this, how many tournaments have been won in the last few years with illegal discs, including some of the major titles? Way more than anyone thinks...

Champion Starfire-L (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=968)
Champion Starfire (Original CFR) (http://sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=825)

The whole rule seems backward. If you re-tool a disc but keep the name, that's okay. If you leave the disc alone and change the name, it needs to be resubmitted? Ridiculous.

Just an FYI, we received a stack of Champion Monsters in yesterday and they were all the Monster-X (http://sunkingdiscs.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1050) mold. Prior to this, only the second run of Monsters were made with the more overstable bottom half.

Could we be looking back at this calling it the "Resubmission Era" the same way Baseball is calling
the last 15 years the "Steroid Era?"