Disc Golf is growing bigger every year and still we are nowhere in the big picture. The small amounts of tournament prize money comes from players and small companies, why are we not promoting this to the big companies that count. I want to know if the PDGA has a comity dedicated to promoting disc golf to the billion dollar companies like Toyota, FED X, Nike, or any large company who could throw us into the next level? We need to have NT tourneys with prizes over 100k+ added to the purse by now. Climo and all of those who have dedicated their time and live to the sport need to be rewarded. WHY ARENT WE THERE BY NOW? :mad:

Because there aren't enough of us.

Because there aren't enough of us.



and the amount of money spent on the sport is chump change.

I believe that's what John Duessler (did I spell that right?) is responsible for. He has made some really good progress in this field, so have a little patience.

The other angle on this is that there is still an image issue that will turn larger companies away from the sport. The issue is trying to be overcome, but it exists.

Once any company can see greater benefit (read: money) to being involved with the sport than other activities they sponsor, they will contribute.

The ways that we can contribute to the effort of mainstreaming the sport (if that is what everyone is looking for), we can all behave ourselves on the courses and treat them (and, more importantly, the other patrons) with respect. You never know when an executive of a major company may be taking a walk in the park!

SEnk

Hi, Jeff-

Grass Valley, eh?

The PDGA helps make available my TV show, which as it happens will play on your local access station, no problem:

http://www.nevadacountytv.org/

This station is available to cable viewers throughout the county, including Grass Valley, if I'm not mistaken.

If you'd like to boost awareness of DG in your own town, let me know and I'll get some episodes into your hands to submit at the station. The show DVDs are free to broadcast partners.

There might even be some Barsby footage in an upcoming episode or two, unless he hits the cutting room floor. He wants to be on ESPN. You want Nike and Toyota to kick in big bucks. High hopes in Grass Valley! Perhaps you can do your bit to grow awareness of the game, one community at a time.

So to answer your question - Is PDGA commited to the promotion of disc golf? I say yes.

Are you?

Best regards,

Joe

How many spectators do we have at NT events?

The big companies will show up when the spectators do.

what are you gonna tell Parks & Rec the monday morning after 50,000 disc golf fans enjoyed your local public park?

if we really need tons of spectators at events we are in serious trouble because our parks cannot handle that size load.

Nike/Toyota/etc aren't going to sponsor events in the big way unless lots of people are going to be there.

200 people (ie, players) doesn't cut it.


Right now, I'd settle for a couple hundred spectators.

I have discussed this situation with our Parks & Rec. Dept. a time or two. They are willing to give it a try (providing we can get those numbers of spectators). The park where our course is located is one of Amarillo's larger parks, and for many years there used to be a large festival during the Memorial Day weekend that drew huge crowds all 3 days. The course was basically unplayable during the afternoons on those days because of the number of people attending the festival and parking wherever they could find a parcel of empty park space.

In my talks with the Parks Dept., they indicated they would be interested in closing a portion of the park for the course (or courses as needed) in order to handle the large number of contestants and hopefully spectators. I believe our park would be a great place for such an event, and it could handle it with just a little prior planning.

Lets get the first 100 before we worry about 50,000....

I can't imagine disc golf ever reaching the lofty heights of ESPN and millionnaire players. Personally, I want to see growth in all areas---courses, casual players, tournament players, outside sponsors, pro purses for premier events, publicity, etc.----and consider it progress if we consistently grow in all categories. I doubt those who think we should focus on just one (TV, or grassroots, or Fly18, or whatever) have the answer.

Now, the image of 50,000 spectors on a wooded course in a public park IS entertaining....

Thanks for your thoughts. I understand what sponsors see on the course and this does need to change but right now they see the same thing in the skate board world and they still throw huge dough big time at these events. However we do need to enforce our rules during tounament play so the general public see conduct that of the professionals they are watching. Personally I think we have what it takes in our National tours to draw the numbers of people for the sponcers. For instance at Skyands (Warwick NY, or Beaver State Fling, Milo McIver park in Oregon, both of these awesome courses would be filmable and will hold as many people as will show up, plus there are courses in the works right now that are being made for such events as well. Ill tell you, If a sponsor throws $100k in the purse, news papers, TV and Radio will blast this news and there will be a Sonic Boom heard loudly in the Disc Golf world and we will never look back. This sport is about to pop big time as far as I see it.

Pipe dreams. Onee reason many of the newer sports have passed us by has to do with the cost and challenge of filming ball golf. And our sport is much more challenging and expensive to do live if we truly were showcasing the skill of threading shots thru and around the trees. We can't easily position cameras to capture this without interfering with the players or mounting cameras in trees along the route. And we don't have the production facilities to quickly switch among cameras to show the shot from different views as it's flying live to capture the 3D effect of the disc flight shape. Skateboarding and beach volleyball really only need a few fixed cameras and a rover to inexpensively cover the sport.

What video coverage we do have in disc golf has usually been edited and possibly done in slo-mo so you can actually see our putts. Putting in ball golf is much more interesting and easier to film than watching a ball against the blue sky in their drives. That's why you primarily see only the shot landing at the end of the drive. For disc golf, watching a drive for spectators is much more interesting than the relatively boring look of putting in our sport. Unfortunately that will translate into even bigger bucks than ball golf to film the drives and approaches to capture the most interesting parts of our sport and be comparable in coverage quality to ball golf.

i'll bet tha cameras need to film DG fairways are less than the blimp ya need to do BG :)

Maybe infrared cameras would work to see thru the trees for filming DG from the sky? :D

just another relatively boring putt (http://www.discgolftv.com/dgtv/223/2/10)

I think this makes my point. Arguably the most exciting part of that putt is the reaction from the player, the crowd, and the nature of when it was done, not the particular flight path of the putt, like most, which is straight in.

Sounds like more of an excuse than an actual "reason". I'm sure if we get the spectators there, the camera crews will find a way!

It's a challenge AFTER our sport ever generates spectators. Even our own players would rather play than watch most of the time and they get to watch free or are "trapped" by holding Final 9s to delay awards. I don't believe any DG event has shown very many players or non-players will pay to watch disc golf. Harold has come close at the USDGC but many of the tickets are handed out free in a variety of ways and paying people get a disc for a weekly pass with a value that's close to the cost of the ticket. No eyeballs. No sponsors. No matter how easy it will be to film any event.

I suspect TV sports audiences come from 2 sources. One is those who play or have played the sport, even casually. We don't have nearly enough of these people, yet. The other is those watching for excitement, such as extreme sports (a bit like watching the circus). Hard to see disc golf drawing many viewers from either at this time.

It would be great if a sponsor threw down $100,000 for a NT event, more thousands in promoting it, more thousands to advertise on a national broadcast, generating enough attention from millions who have never played that they watch the broadcast and buy enough of the sponsor's products to cover the sponsor's expenses.

I wonder what the threshhold would be? Perhaps when there are 100,000 tournament players and 500,000 casual players, there'll be enough audience?

In the meantime.....

I think this makes my point. Arguably the most exciting part of that putt is the reaction from the player, the crowd, and the nature of when it was done, not the particular flight path of the putt, like most, which is straight in.



The excitement doesn't come from the reaction, the reaction comes from the excitement.

I agree that, for example, a 50 foot turnover-stall putt around some trees with a big drop-off on the left side of the basket is a setting that naturally creates drama regardless of whether the putt is to force a playoff or not.

I don't think there's anything wrong with our "putting". The element that's missing on most of our courses is real "greens".

Too fast and too straight as it is right now. No drama like the slowly moving and curving putt in ball golf. Now that new Turbo putt disc might make it look cooler...

The drama's in the anticipation. Watching the player read the wind, go through their pre-shot ritual, and step up to a putt that they're dying to make, but that if they go at too agressively might leave them with an uphill 40 footer coming back.

True that we'll never get a chip shot like Tiger's on 16 at Augusta, particularly as they the swoosh slowly rolled into the center of the screen, before disappearing into the cup, but that was one of the rare moments in all sports of all time.

To create disc golf drama that is easy to digest for both the live spectator and a television viewer, we need to make the holes look like golf holes. The fairways need to be readily identifiable, the hazards obvious and well-defined and the choices apparent. (Either a player throws wide right off the tee on a par 4, but leaves 400 ft. home or they attempt the tighter route left to leave 290 ft. home.) Most of our park/woods courses won't translate well, in addition to the difficulty for the camera crews that you've already mentioned. There are too many things that can happen in the woods, the crews can't anticipate them all and/or react quickly enough, and it's impossible for an announcer to sumarize the options presented from the schule in 10 seconds.

I love the Marshall Street videos, they've built a huge event with a lot of buzz in large part because of the videos, but there's still a chasm to leap over to something that translates to mainstream entertainment. Non-discers watch something like that and have absolutely no idea what's going on. They can understand the USDGC.

I've been pondering this same line of thought for quite a while now. Over the years I've been playing Disc Golf, I've seen a lot of TV reporters come out to get some film and interviews. I've also seen a lot of players try to get video footage, and in the last 4 - 5 years we've seen some good attempts from people like Joe Wander, MSDCG, and others.

I believe one thing that is missing (from most of what I've seen) is the over-head angle. The camera angle from the blimp. Very heavily relied upon in Ball Golf broadcasts. Most disc flights are horizontal (sort of), so the over-head angle can capture the disc's flight easier than from the side (or tail view/front view).

How do we do that for our events? Doubtful the major $pon$or$ with the blimp$ will be intere$ted right now, but what if a major equipment rental company was approached as a potential corporate sponsor, and at all of the NT events they provided a couple of boom lifts that camera crews could rise up above the trees for the over-head view? Or perhaps on the local level (in areas that aren't overly windy) have a hot air balloon company tethered near tourney HQ for some high up angles?

The other aspect of Cale's putt is that the people watching cared about the players and understood the context of that shot. Unless we can produce media phenoms like Tony Hawk, Shaun White (snowboarding) or Tiger, no one will care about putts like Cale's. Tiger just has to be somewhere and the crowd watches him regardless what card he's on. Feldberg wasn't the star on Conan in comparison to the basket, the discs and Conan. There's a ways to go but at least it's a start.

I believe one thing that is missing (from most of what I've seen) is the over-head angle. The camera angle from the blimp. Very heavily relied upon in Ball Golf broadcasts. Most disc flights are horizontal (sort of), so the over-head angle can capture the disc's flight easier than from the side (or tail view/front view).

How do we do that for our events?



A lot of disc golfers work in the trades. Maybe someone knows someone who knows someone and this could be worked out once to see what happens?

You can bet I'm willing to try! I've already started the process with my contacts at our local RSC (Rental Service Center). What I'm running into is the fact that these types of operations are constantly being bought and sold on the corporate level, so having someone like Dr. John Duessler in our corner is extremely helpful. I'm sure he knows how to go about talking to the right people and asking the right questions. He probably even has a tie and suit, of which I have neither. ;)

Just an idea that I've been thinking about for a while and this seemed like a good oportunity to express it.

i agree with ya, john. i think there is a way to make dg exciting on screen and lessen the need to overflow our parks with huge crowds. a small group of us are working on a camera system/technique that combines the advantages of a blimp and cam tower into a dg-scale system. it's goal is to capture more of the excitement of flight than purely ground-based systems can capture. i'm not sure how/if it will end up working though.

What is the basis of the technique? Cams mounted on extendable poles? Small blimps (remote controlled dirigibles ;)) Scaffolding?

Most of the camerapeople I've talked to about this agree with what I'm saying, they just don't want to go up that high off the ground. We've even got a 5-story tower on top of the hill close by #11's basket (Fire Dept. training area - and they have given us permission to use it), but none of them are interested in filming from above. :confused: However, the last photographer that came out in May before the Shootout said that she would love to go up in a hot air balloon if we got one out there. Our problem with that is the need for more open field area and that "slight" possibility of the wind picking up. ;)

small blimps are indeed one of the components, good guess

Interesting.

How well do they handle wind? I assume they are tethered? I can see where this would work in areas with a lot of trees. Maybe not so much as courses cut out of super thick woods, but regular park spaces like a lot of courses are in.

Pat, do you own a suit & tie? ;)

I looked into RC blimps and planes last year and using wireless cameras but the low quality, difficulty to control them and likely shakiness seemed too many problems to pursue. I'm just too busy to deal with it at Highbridge before Worlds but eventually we'd like to mount cameras in trees above and behind some tee pads.

does a bolo tie count? :D

(actually, yes, but only cuz i was looking for a job a year and a half ago)

the best idea we've got so far is a small, highly maneuverable device that can track the disc as it flies. unfortunately the prototype budget was absurd, and we couldnt get the NSA or CIA to help fund it no doubt, elevation is a key to vid-ing dg. wind is an issue for the blimps so far, and a line rigging ala MNF and NBA-HD is a bit cumbersome and can be tough to fit in between fairway lines. the core component is relatively low-tech - extensible poles with an RC head that holds a high-end ccd camera. different course require different numbers of poles to get good coverage of course. and the fixed location of the pole takes it away from a lot of fairway action.

my utopian setup is:

basket cam - cam mounted inside every basket pole (or more exact, in a cut-out section of the pole), RC controls for head and focus; (think of watching an ace happen this way) controls and monitor off of green somewhere

tower cam - like bg, but not as tall and more per course. single pole, no stand, RC controls for head and focus, controls and monitor at base of uinit;

fly cam - blimp, cam-drone or wire-rig, completely RC, controls and monitor somewhere along fairway

When I read some of these posts I don't wonder why we aren't moving any closer to a goal. Hire the right people to get the money and there will be money. Don't worry about things you know nothing about, I mean you do go to movies right and they film crazy amazing stuff that you couldn't even begin to think how to do, and you pay big money to watch it. Small potatoes. Just think of the bigger picture and every thing else will fall in place, and it will happen. 2001 SkyCatz in Grass Valley, CA I found a man with a small company who added 10K to the purse and we had one of the biggest tourney in CA on 2 small courses. It can be done and some one who believes it will do it.

You're assuming your goal is THE goal and will help build the sport. Bigger purses result from a sport that is thriving, has the numbers AND has sound fundamental economic underpinnings. Our sport does not yet have them. Not enough players. Not enough courses to handle the number of players needed. No indication that sufficient numbers of people including players want to watch free at the courses let alone pay to watch. No indication that the sport can effectively be filmed live or if people want to watch it in sufficient numbers even if it can be done cost effectively.

This isn't gloom and doom negativity. This sport is growing fast as an amateur participation sport. Expending a lot of effort scraping and begging to boost purses from skeptical sponsors who can't truly justify the investment just to line the pockets of a few players is not the best way to advance the sport in my opinion. There are other ways that are currently more viable to advance the sport and build a strong foundation for the future.

I believe the next groups of people to make money in this sport, if it's possible, will be private entrepreneurs building pay-for-play courses in markets where it's viable. There are places like the Twin Cities, Dallas, Des Moines and Charlotte where the growth of public courses will soon top out and private pay courses will be the only way to handle the growth along with converting some public facilities into pay-for-play. Pros who wish to make money will increasingly be able to make it giving lessons, becoming PE teachers to teach disc sports or running pro shops at pay-for-play courses, not by cashing at events.

Jay and Des Reading are prototypes of this emerging economic activity. They are on the road giving clinics and promoting the EDGE program. We do not yet have the equivalent of a training center such as the Nick Bolleteri center where parents pay big bucks to send their kids for tennis instruction. Even without this, we need vastly more EDGE programs in the schools to continue to fuel growth and this will also greatly add credibility in all levels of society.

Pros should be giving clinics all over the country at their courses either on their own initiative or thru parks departments. It doesn't appear to be happening yet. If new players aren't willing to pay for lessons, it doesn't bode well for a strong economic future if learning how to play doesn't have sufficient value.

These types of activities produce grass roots growth and aren't as exciting for our current pros as cashing in big money events. However, the cash potential is more probable but involves work. Maybe the payoff in purses will come, maybe not. The sport is still awesome and will remain so for those of us who love to play.

Kennedy are you part of the PDGA? I mean are you on any comity with the PDGA?

I'm on several committees.

Hmm.. No wonder we sit in the cave waiting for someone to strike the flint into fire. GOYA!

If you didn't even know I was on one committee let alone several, it's apparent who's been in the cave...

Attacking the person or the PDGA indicates the hollowness of your arguments. At least make an attempt to persuade us why your approach is as worthwhile as the approach that's been steadily working to build the sport. Your ideas aren't wrong but just too early by 10-20 years. Dr. John Duesler has been knocking himself out for a few years now to land national sponsors with a few successes so far. So it's not like the PDGA isn't continuing to try this avenue.

I just expect better from someone who is in the main stream, than "PIPE DREAMS" I think that is a put down, not a positive spin and we will get no where with that thinking. IMO

I believe people need a reality check if they think big money has been sitting there for the taking for years and somehow the PDGA and TDs have been sitting on their butts not going after easy money from sponsors. Yes, here and there you'll hear about bigger hits like $10K. But those are few and far between. Those sponsors usually aren't doing it for any chance of a true return on investment because it doesn't exist at this point.

There are things that are working but they're not the sexy high profile purses people have been patiently waiting to see for a long time. If Innova hadn't developed their CFR program, with similar programs offered by others, some of the big events like Pro Worlds and USDGC would have barely paid back 100%. Getting money internal to the sport, in this case the players via CFR type programs, does not mean we've made much progress in attracting big time sponsorship. And it's not for the lack of trying.

We'll see.. If your on the ballot for this coming election, we need to vote in new blood, get rid of the burn outs;./ IMO

I've never run for office because of potential commercial conflicts of interest although small. Apparently you're not aware that elected Board members aren't specifically responsible to do the work unless they wish to (and some do) but paid staff and volunteer committee members do. If you'd like to volunteer to raise sponsorship money there are no burnt out volunteers standing in your way to help Duesler.

That's a relief... We need to locate people who raise this money for a living. (professionally) Ive said enough, if you don't get it move on to another board about putting around trees or some **** thing irrelevant to the discussion board your on. Good night

I think we understand what you want. And we would be thrilled if bigger money starts flowing in. In the mean time, we'll continue to do what's been working to grow the sport like installing better courses, running good events, publishing ratings and spreading the EDGE message.

That's a relief... We need to locate people who raise this money for a living. (professionally) ...



The PDGA did that a few years ago with a professional company called Sportsloop. The results were less than stellar, some may even say disastrous.

Chuck (and the PDGA) are committed to the promotion of Disc Golf. You apparently are as well. However, your version of promoting Disc Golf from the top down has been tried unsuccessfully for over 20 years. Chuck's version of promoting Disc Golf from the bottom up is working. The current growth of Disc Golf courses is steep and sustained. The amateur player base is also growing quickly. The Professional player base is another story. That may be where your disaffection lies. There is no money for professionals but lots of play for everyone else. This may change in the future as the player base continues to grow.

Apparently we have disc golfers with the vision to obtain major funds from major corporations, and either the ability to do so, or the ability to find someone who can and will do so. And none of these disc golfers with such vision are on the PDGA board.

Is there anything in the sanctioning agreement preventing these visionaries from running a demonstration event? A supertour or NT with such backing would surely draw top players and be a tremendous success.

If sanctioning presents a roadblock, will the PDGA board stand in the way of a non-sanctioned, showcase event with major sponsors? Perhaps those with the vision and abilities the PDGA board doesn't have can show the way with a non-PDGA tournament?

And since part of the problem is not having such vision on the board, I wonder what does the PDGA do the prevent such people from being elected to the board themselves? Then the PDGA would share this vision and we could be a high-profile, high-dollar sport in just a few years!

For myself, I don't have such vision or ability and don't see how it's possible, but I'd be extremely grateful if those who do would go ahead and do it. In the meantime, I'm thankful for all the volunteers who've done so much already to grow the sport from where I first saw it 11 years ago.

Sorry, David. Not meaning to step on toes, but...........

MSDGC - Stellar Non-PDGA event
Steve Dodge - visionary on the PDGA Board

This thread has somehow turned into an indictment that PDGA somehow doesn't want big money sponsorship or they are ignoring offers for help from gifted volunteers, or perhaps they are not getting the big money sponsorship that is apparently just waiting for them if they would only ask.



will the PDGA board stand in the way of a non-sanctioned, showcase event with major sponsors?



Anyone is welcome to run a non-PDGA event with major sponsors? Do you think the BOD has magical powers to shut down non-PDGA events?


Apparently we have disc golfers with the vision to obtain major funds from major corporations, and either the ability to do so, or the ability to find someone who can and will do so. And none of these disc golfers with such vision are on the PDGA board.



And just exactly WHO are these people you refer to with the vision AND ability to find big money? Why don't they call the PDGA and John Deusler and offer to help? They don't need to be on the BOD to help raise sponsorship. It is one thing to raise money for ONE event in ONE area of the country ONE time and quite another to raise money for multiple events around the country year after year.


And none of these disc golfers with such vision are on the PDGA board....I wonder what does the PDGA do the prevent such people from being elected to the board themselves?



Perhaps the PDGA BOD has magical brainwashing abilities to reach out and indoctrinate members to only vote for certain candidates? Maybe they send subliminal messages through the magazine and message board to prevent would-be candidates from running for a BOD seat?


The conspiracies continue to grow. People, please don't forget to put tinfoil on your head when reading the message board to block the brainwashing waves from entering your skull.

John:

There have been stellar non-PDGA events, and visionary events such as the first Players Cup, where folks have stepped up and shown what can be done. (At least this is my understanding, having not attended them). I hope I didn't imply that we've had no visionaries.

I simply wish those who's vision is that they, or we, can get $100,000 sponorships, major media publicity, etc., would do it. Do more than run around saying someone else should do it. Make it happen.

While I personally don't believe it's possible at this time, I've been wrong about enough things in my life to temper my certitude. I'd love to be wrong about our not hitting the big-time.

"People, please don't forget to put tinfoil on your head when reading the message board to block the brainwashing waves from entering your skull."

way ahead of you discette.

taking disc golf to a major sponsor is a tough sell right now. as others have noted previously, we dont have the audience. it is extremely difficult to show believable, attractive numbers to a potential sponsor. our competition is every other sposorship opportunity out there - and some of those guys are real good. i could probably get 10 meetings with marketing folks who have millions of dollars at the disposal... getting the meetings isnt the problem. its the fact that there are maybe 20,000 of us in the world. lets say you want $1M for a tour purse. using the 20,000 number as a maybe-somewhat defensible audience size means the sponsor is spending $50 per person. what product that appeals to disc golf's audience can afford to spend that kind of cash in a single year? i want mass-market paydays as much as anyone, but the reality is that our economics need further developing before thats gonna happen.

and then there is the fantastic question of how to recommend spending $3M if it were offered by a large consumer goods/services company along with a committment to go another $3M in a couple years "if it works".

random un-refined thought: a sponsored $100,000 purse is a failure if the sponsor does not derive a measurable return on that investement, regardless of how cool the event was or how many disc golfers got a big paycheck.

David
I believe this dialog we are having right now is what we need to make the move up word. If we had a goal to get sponsors to hit the mark of say $100.000 added to the purse, it will be done and the next worlds could be the target date. I believe it will happen. Think bigger! :DWe have an audience waiting, just plug in Disc Golf in You Tube and see what you find.

Discette---was I not clear enough?---I agree with you 100%

My post was gently mocking those who are bashing the PDGA. Perhaps I should sharpen my satire....or just stop using it.

Of course the PDGA is trying to promote the sport. In my opinion, doing a great job. I'm glad they're doing it. The volunteers on the board do far more than I do for the sport. And of course they want big money and would get it if they could find a way to. Of course the PDGA won't stop a sanctioned event from obtaining big sponsorship and publicity. Of course the PDGA won't stop someone from doing so as a non-sanctioned event.

I'm not bashing anyone---just needling those who are bashing the PDGA.

And, John, yes, the MSDGC is a good example of a stellar event, as well.

Sorry for any offense given by being too clever....or not clever enough.

I am seeing people "make it happen". Surely you aren't going to imply that the PDGA is ineffective and hasn't changed since you started 11 years ago? If that is your perception of what's happening, maybe you aren't looking at the bigger picture, only what you want to see. Maybe the PDGA is lacking in some areas that you are passionate about, but as a member of the org., shouldn't you be doing all you can to help in those areas?

The PDGA BOD is just a group of individuals (fellas like you and me) trying to work together to advance the sport the best they can. Each has their own ideas about what's important, and what's not. No single one of them can take the PDGA checkbook and do what they want to make their ideal come to reality. They have to work TOGETHER! They (and each previous BOD) have done the best they can with what is available, and if I'm not mistaken, they seek out means and individuals to try to get the job done.

To imply the BOD (or past BODs) aren't doing their jobs is assinine. Group decisions aren't always going to go the way each individual wants.

Well I apologize, David. My coffee hasn't made it past my stomach yet and I guess I didn't catch the "cleverness" of your post.

Well I apologize, David. My coffee hasn't made it past my stomach yet and I guess I didn't catch the "cleverness" of your post.



Apparently it wasn't that clever.

I think I'll pull the tinfoil off my head and cover my face.

Apologies to everyone.

Wow - I totally missed the satire/sarcasm too!! But it provided good fodder. Thanks :p

And, in what is hopefully a final plea to save what's left of my face, I had posted several times earlier in this board that I disagreed with the premise and didn't see how big sponsorships were possible.

Your subtle cleverness DID allow you to claim either side of the issue though, just like a good politician... :D

David, I caught your cleverness. :)

I, too, am happy for those who are spending the time working the deals to grow sponsorship dollars and think they're doing a great job considering our organized player base is so small and our spectator base is non-existant.

Your subtle cleverness DID allow you to claim either side of the issue though, just like a good politician... :D


....or anger both sides, like a politician with a very short career.

A good politician would have had a handler to review statements before releasing them to the media.

Maybe Mike K. should check into retaining a "handler"? :D

I've read a lot of responses about needing more spectators...which is very true. How do we get people to come to the tournaments?

offer a raffle drawing for gallery attendance.

How do we get people to come to the tournaments?


Here's how:
Put out a flyer saying that on sunday at 4pm the PDGA is shooting scenes for a huge hollywood "Disc Golf Movie" and they need extras to show the drama and galleries of disc golf. This is your chance to be in a real hollywood movie! One of the stars of the movie is Johnny Dep playing the part of "Cale Leviska".
Repeat every weekend in the next town with a tournament.
Instant galleries.

:)

think about what would happen to the typical disc golf park if 10 or 20 thousand people decended on it for the day. it would be ineresting to actually figure out what courses are capable handling that kind of crrowd and the logistics that come with it.

FYI

last weekend i had the misfortune of flipping by espn2 hd and seeing that the national "paper, rock, scissors" championship was on. they were sponsored by bud light. and the winner got 50,000 in cash!

if we can't get on, we aren't trying hard enough....

Did the finalists have to wear collared shirts? :D

Much easier to video, anyone can do it, no reason not to drink while doing it or watching it, and luck is involved.

no reason not to drink while doing it or watching it, and luck is involved.


and that differs from disc golf how? :)

Certainly an option at non-sanctioned events and depending on the baskets, format and course design, can certainly have more luck involved.

Yeah but can Bud make a Disc Golf Superbowl commercial that everyone will laugh at?

Rock, Paper, Scissors Commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV0B3maUK0E)

The big question is, which came first, the Commercial or the sponsorship?

THE PDGA IS DOING A GREAT JOB. PEOPLE FIRST OF ALL I AGREE WE NEED A NATIONAL SPONSOR. THE ORGANIZATION IS DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO PROMOTE THIS SPORT. THERE ARE SOME PROBLEMS YES I AGREE, AND THEY ARE BEING ADDRESSED PROFESSIONALY. FIRST OF ALL A LOT OF PLAYERS SAY WHAT IS THE PDGA DOING FOR ME. WELL ORGANIZED TOURNAMENTS IS JUST ONE PRIVILEGE YOU GET!! A SET OF RULES PUBLISHED AND ESTABLISHED TO MAKE AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD FOR ALL THE PLAYERS. I SAY ASK NOT WHAT THE PDGA IS DOING FOR YOU, I THINK ITS A LOT, ASK WHAT ARE YOU DOING FOR THE PDGA!!!!!!!!!!!
UNCLE BOB #3230 ACTIVE

As far as membership goes I think it is a big part of the equation to promote the sport.... But we lack the numbers needed to take it to the next level.

The majority of the players in my area are:

1) Not PDGA members
2) not interested in becoming members because of the cost and lack of interest in costly 2 day PDGA events.
3) Don't have enough positive influence or incentive to change and join....

I think it would be great if the PDGA created some kind of local representative program to recriut and get more players joining. Interested PDGA players could apply to represent an area or town and work under the State coordinator. If the PDGA backed up these individuals with informational membership packets and possibly with promotional reduced rate memberships, including stickers etc... maybe we could greatly increase member numbers and awareness.

Having alot more 1 day events would also help bolster interest and help add more rounds to the points and ratings pool. If the points and ratings system was was something that captured all the weekly/local events it would be more accurate, and more interesting to players.....Non-members could pay a smaller non-membership fee and could be offered the option to join... Families or individual Juniors and Women could be reduced even more than it is now and more affordable....

So the basic idea is to capture the resource of the recreational/weekly player pool. I think at this point in time, they are the majority of players in the world, not us....

Senior, you can put on a 1-day PDGA event. All it takes is someone willing to do it. "The PDGA" cannot legislate tournament formats. If 1-day'ers are what would work best in your local area, it's up to the locals to put 'em on.

I'm not aware of the PDGA as an organization trying to influence me into any set format or number of days or anything for the tourney I run, or for any of the tourneys I used to run in the past. The PDGA provides the framework for me to sancion my event and I choose how I want to do it. (Which, incidently, is a 1-day event. :) )

This is the second time in a month I've heard someone say "The PDGA should have more 1 day events", so I thought I should say that I haven't ever heard "the PDGA" even recommend how many days any tourney I run should be. :D

Granted there are requirements for NTs and Majors, and maybe even A-tiers, but Bs and Cs can be one day events no problem.

To add to this, take a look at Gimp's series that started in Houston and grew to the rest of the state. Some argue he was following what the Texan Aussie did. Nonetheless, these two series of one day events were hugely popular. Gimp's were sanctioned and showed how well the format works. A lot of people argue that one day events don't allow for the cream to rise to the top, they may be right. But that isn't the position of the PDGA, that is player perception.

BTW - I focus on Gimp's events because they were sanctioned. Himing's events weren't but they really set the standard for one day events. If you're really interested Senior, go to the international thread, Find Chris Himing's account and PM him. The series he ran was phenomenal averaging well over 150 players per event. Personally, I think he demonstrated that one day events are the best format for growing the sport.

Himing is a flat-out great promoter, so that helped, but you are right that he's shown there is a great demand for 1-day events. :)

We are also getting more PDGA sanctioned SoCal Series events that are 1-day'ers. Even though the SoCal Points structure punishes 1-day events, they are still increasing. Cliff Towne and Snapper have always had their 1-day Flings, and Cliff also added a dual sanctioned Ice Bowl a few years ago. My EIEIO is 1 day. Sylmar added a 1-day "Sylmar Open" and also still has 2-day Summertime Open. So the SoCal Series has five 1-dayers on the schedule this year.

That makes me think my point of view about lack of awareness is a valid concern... If I have been with my local club for the past 8 years, and the PDGA for the past 3 years and have been active with my club and with the NorCal tour and I haven't got a clue about getting events going and sanctioned, then the PDGA and the state coordinator, local TD's could do more with its current member base to bolster more/cheaper sanctioned events, membership and player awareness.....????? From my point of view, nothing is being done in my area to educate current members about the possibilities of the PDGA..... Maybe I am missing something?

Why don't TD's run sanctioned monthlies and report the rounds for points and ratings???

Why don't TD's run sanctioned monthlies and report the rounds for points and ratings???



What's the incentive? Cost would be higher for players, and alot of paperwork for TD.

Is PDGA committed to the promotion of disc golf?

Is PDGA committed to offering incentives for the promotion of disc golf?

Is PDGA committed to the lowering the cost of lower tier events to help with the promotion of disc golf?

Hmmmm???

That makes me think my point of view about lack of awareness is a valid concern... If I have been with my local club for the past 8 years, and the PDGA for the past 3 years and have been active with my club and with the NorCal tour and I haven't got a clue about getting events going and sanctioned, then the PDGA and the state coordinator, local TD's could do more with its current member base to bolster more/cheaper sanctioned events, membership and player awareness.....????? From my point of view, nothing is being done in my area to educate current members about the possibilities of the PDGA..... Maybe I am missing something?
Why don't TD's run sanctioned monthlies and report the rounds for points and ratings???



I think this is an excellent point. I've not looked, and it may be this is already available, but there needs to be a point by point document that outlines what you need to do, both in terms of the PDGA and other entities (parks etc.), to put on a PDGA event. Not rules based but hints based.

Is PDGA committed to the promotion of disc golf?

Is PDGA committed to offering incentives for the promotion of disc golf?

Is PDGA committed to the lowering the cost of lower tier events to help with the promotion of disc golf?

Hmmmm???



You have to be realistic about both cost and what TDs will be willing to do. It doesn't really matter if it would be the best thing since buttered bread, if TDs won't do it, it won't happen.

On the other hand, here's how it could be done efficiently.

1) standardized format spreadsheet developed by the PDGA and downloadable by any TD.

2) enter players info in spreadsheet as well as the results of the monthly

3) load spreadsheet to FTP site where a bat file or some such picks it up and runs through the data calculating ratings and other pertinent info.

4) use another routine to transfer the data to the SQL database where ratings and other info is maintained.

Such a setup would be easy to structure and would make the job of the TD relatively easy (not any harder than what they're currently doing) and would not involve staff to calculate and transfer data.

I believe those are good ideas... I also think (from personal experience) that players like the idea of belonging to a club and tracking their record as a golfer. They just see the PDGA as something for a more "serious golfer", not them. If they could get in the PDGA easier, and track there progress without as much time between events and the travel involved, they would possibly join....

Senior, the PDGA website provides all kinds of information about sanctioning events, how to run events, etc. etc. etc. Check out http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/2007tourinfo.php -- available from the home page of the PDGA web site. If you still have questions about how to run a (sanctioned) event, I'm sure that someone in your area, or someone like Rhett, would be able to provide advice and suggestions. And failing all else, you could email or telephone Mr. David Gentry, tour manager. (Phone number is at the top of this page, email available via the "Contact" selection at the top of the page.) My comment: I think the PDGA (and PDGA members) make this information pretty widely and easily available.

Some neat formats I've seen in my state (SC) just since MarchL
- 1 day match play! (PDGA sanctioned)
- several 1-day and 2-day PDGA events
- charity non-sanctioned events
- a 1-day non-sanctioned hugely sponsored event targeted at introducing new players to tourney play where EVERY single player left with a stack of 10 or so of donated discs
- a series of 4 *yes, 4!* one-day PDGA-sanctioned events in a row, running Thursday through Sunday (oops, that wasn't SC, that was in Charlotte NC, just over the state line!)
- a Juniors-only event that drew 75 kids or so, ranging from complete novices to experienced PDGA players
- plus local monthlies and local random doubles ...
- and I didn't even mention the NT event at the IDGC in Augusta, also just over the state line!

When I look back on the past few months, the variety of events available across this smallish state is really quite remarkable. And although I do strongly support the PDGA, I don't think that this occurred because the PDGA directed from above that things should be so. Those events occurred because they were invented by local folks who had a vision and went with it.

The tone of your question "Why don't TD's run sanctioned monthlies and report the rounds for points and ratings???" you seem to imply that the fact that they (usually) don't is because the PDGA is failing to do something. If this is your vision, the PDGA will support you in making it come true. Go for it!

Yes, the tone of my statement has to do with what I see as a lack of incentive, awareness, communication, representatives. How do we reach the thousands of players who are not participating in sanctioned events? It seems to me, not enough is being done to educate, entice and communicate to practicing prospective non-member/non-current disc golfers in my state. Leadership and news has to come from somewhere.... I think the PDGA (the current members) has to come up with a way to delegate the responsibility of communicating important topics in order to ensure that information gets passed on as far as possible... :eek:

So what I am suggesting is a program supported and standardized by the PDGA that is ran by the State coordinator, who supervises and supports a state team of volunteers who act as PDGA liaisons to local disc golf communities. These liaisons search out and assist local clubs with standardize practices, sanctioning, software, informational packets and promotional items. This program could help establishing 1 day D tier sanctioned monthlies in order to provide a reasonable active outlet for players who can�t find the rational to join an organization for just one or two events a year. Along with that we could hold bi-annual membership drive tournaments that showcase day-of lowered membership dues to make it easier for families, juniors and ladies to join and take the time to personally explain the benefits of disc golf and joining the PDGA. :D

Those are great ideas, Senior. Get on it and let us know how it goes in your area so we can all consider doing the same in ours. :)

One thing: I don't think all tournaments need to be PDGA sanctioned. When I go to a PDGA sanciotned tournament, I expect it to be more of a well planned event than a seat-of-your-pants style happening that is run out of the trunk of a car.

Monthlies and weeklies are informal get togethers and, IMHO, don't need PDGA sanctioning. As such they are also the perfect place for rec players to get introduced to organized competition. They are usually cheap enough to play that a newbie won't be discouraged from giving it a try. The ole pants-seat car-trunk organization model is perfect for this kind of event. If it starts late, it's no big deal. If the normal "TD" can't make it, it's usually an informal enough of an affair that someone or two can step and make something happen. No results have to be maintained and turned in and no fees usually have to be paid. If it doens't even happen at all, it's a little irritating if you went out there but it's not a big deal. You just go ahead and play a round and wonder what happened.

I expect more from a PDGA sanctioned event. One day PDGA tourneys in SoCal are well planned and well executed. They aren't just monthlies with sanctioning. You'll feel like you attended an event, and you'll be done in one day. :)

senior has a good point. there is a growing recognition that we could enhance the kind of programs he's talking about. reaching Parks Depts, city boards, and other authorities is a specific topic under discussion. like others have said, a good start with the resources is already online. with the new "green" division arriving in 2008, having a polished program, and people able to deliver it makes a ton of sense.

i really like your idea of an easy, lowcost Membership that gets you ratings and a basic set of core services. could we attract 25,000 new Members who are beginning/family/casual disc golfers over the next 3 years if we had a $15 entry Membership? i dont know, but it sure seems worthwhile to think it over.

It seems to me that drawing casual disc golfers towards being tournament players is mostly a function for local clubs. I'm not sure what the PDGA can really do here. I see a lot of casual players start playing local weeklies....then try a small tournament, perhaps a non-sanctioned one....then move into sanctioned tournament play. Usually with the encouragement of locals who've already traveled that path.

Then there are the many casual disc golfers who have no interest in organized competition, including some who play a lot and some who are rather good. Most of what the PDGA offers is geared towards tournament players, though there are benefits for the entire disc golf community (standardized rules & equipment, online course directory, etc.). These folks can join local clubs and take part in non-competitive events, such as club parties, course improvements, etc. But is there any kind of membership that the PDGA could offer that would entice this segment of the community to join?

I do agree with the comment that there is a place for non-sanctioned events, which can draw new players with lower fees and flexible formats, as well as 1-day and 2-day sanctioned events. Having helped run all of these, they all have their value in growing our sport.

I understand how it works now, and you have all expressed that well. We all like non-sanctioned 1 day events, but that is not what I am refering to.

The problem I encounter is that the Rec/Am players have a desire for what the PDGA offers, but lack the funds to travel and join or don't see enough benefit in joining. They love the idea playing events and tracking their rating and recording tournament scores. Some also use the PDGA website for resources such as course look-up etc.. But they don't take the step into membership just to track the single B-tier or C-tier event they attend each year.

If you consider serious Am Ball golfers, they can record every round they play and establish a handi-cap and track their rounds. I myself hate the fact that I only get to rate and track about 30% of the actual tournament golf I play thru the PGDA. I think if the PDGA came up with a way for golfers to track more events they would lure more golfers to join. I use www.discgolfstats.com (http://www.discgolfstats.com) to track my daily rounds, but I would much rather be able to run everything thru the PDGA because it would be a more realistic representation of my skill level when comaperd to the nation.

IMO the main thing the PDGA has going for it right now is the ratings system and event history. Players love to push themselves to higher standards and the ratings system lets them see and compare themselves to other golfers they know around the world! It makes it a personal connection....

The fact that most non-sanctioned annual series events track progress online and have handi-caps and points, shows that one dosen't need the PDGA to track their personal progress and skills. You can hang out with a club play non-santioned events, win actual cash as an Am and get lots plastic andother benefits and never need the PDGA for anything.

If the PDGA wants to compete in the growing market of tournament disc golf and capture the pool of non-member golfers it needs a product to sell. I think that product is the online services, event tracking and ratings sysytem. How do you offer it? Well right now you have run a sanctioned event and report the results etc... But the amount of recordable rated events offered is limited due to cost and redtape and lack of awareness and commincation...... So I say make a product that players want and they will buy it. That means getting salespersons and more events to sell at.... :DThe answer is out there................ :eek:

"But the amount of recordable rated events offered is limited due to cost and redtape and lack of awareness and commincation...."

I'm a little confused about this....or a little slow....or both. Or maybe it's a regional thing.

As for the amount of recordable rated events being limited, are you excluding sanctioned events? Around here there are sanctioned events almost every weekend---the calendar's full and scheduling conflicts are starting to be an issue. Lack of awareness or communication certainly isn't inhibiting the number of sanctioned events---or unsanctioned events, for that matter.

Or are you seeking ratings and recorded results for non-sanctioned events? I can see this being attractive to players who aren't PDGA members and don't play in sanctioned events, but it seems to me that this is a benefit of sanctioning, and that the cost of sanctioning and membership helps pay for these features.

As for ratings, as I (barely) understand it, it's far too complex for someone to be able to enter rounds themself and calculate ratings. Ratings are based on all players in a round, and their previous ratings, and the same score can produce different ratings in different rounds on the same course. So for non-sanctioned or local events, someone would still have to enter all results, and track all the non-PDGA players through time.

"If the PDGA wants to compete in the growing market of tournament disc golf and capture the pool of non-member golfers it needs a product to sell.....So I say make a product that players want and they will buy it."

Are you suggesting the PDGA does not offer enough benefits to their members, or that they need to offer more benefits to non-members? If the non-members buy this product, aren't they then members?

Sorry to be so dense---just curious about what, specifically, you're proposing.

I myself hate the fact that I only get to rate and track about 30% of the actual tournament golf I play thru the PGDA. I think if the PDGA came up with a way for golfers to track more events they would lure more golfers to join.



The PDGA ratings process is used to track your personal and league handicap by the Disc Golf United handicapping service so this is already available online: www.discgolfunited.com (http://www.discgolfunited.com)

I have proposed the concept of a lower cost PDGA league membership to the Board in the past that would produce ratings. They will hear more about it at the Fall Summit. They didn't have enough IT resources to pursue it at the time so it's been percolating in the background. No more details on it here but it's along the lines of your request.

I was responding to what I was hearing about TD's that don't want to sanctioned run monthlies because of the cost of sanctioning to them and players etc (reduce the cost somehow?)... What I am hearing from my local non-members is they would join if the system/benefits reached them locally without the traveling, time and cost.... If it did, they could build from there as a "member"

I think what the PDGA has now is good, but could work better and be more marketable... Maybe it is the addition of a round tracker for everyday rounds. But if there were enough local sanctioned events happening everywhere, Rec players could get into them without as much cost and commitment. They then would join the PDGA to reap the benefits of ratings and event tracking and at the same time increase the volume of sales and therefore help push down the cost for sanctioned events... Sort of a supply and demand problem.... Maybe I'm out in left field somewhere... Who knows...

I only know that Rec players who could get serious sooner than later wait waaay longer than we probably want them to. It also gives them time to shop around and buy eleswhere... Like becoming a regular in a non-sanctioned series year after year and realize they don't need the PDGA...

So the question is....what does the PDGA offer, and what could the PDGA offer, to the player who only plays events in his or her hometown, mostly weeklies/monthlies, to entice him or her to join?

That's a reasonable question.

Current benefits include posting privileges in this forum, quarterly magazine, and support of national organization to further the sport. Perhaps worth the cost, perhaps not.

Beyond that, will a reduced-cost, reduced-benefits membership get them in? Or are there more benefits the PDGA could offer, as Chuck mentions?

I don't have any answers, but do I at least understand the question now?