What, if any, is the penalty for a twosome that plays 6 holes in a tournament before they are discovered? Rule #804.06C
This was in second round and one round on Sunday to follow this one.
Thanks any help would be appreciated
Uncle Bob

804.06C. Groups shall not be less than three players, except under extenuating circumstances, as deemed necessary by the director, to promote fairness. In cases where fewer than three players are required to play together, an official is required to accompany the group and may play as long as this does not interfere with the competing players.



The rule as written neither specifies a player's responsibility nor a penalty for playing in a group of two.

There is no case with similar circumstances in the Rules Q&A.

In such a case the TD would have to determine whether
A) The players were not aware of the rule.
B) The players were aware of the rule and made an attempt to get an official to address the issue before the round began, but an official was not available.
or
C) The players were aware of the rule and decided, "forget about it, we'll just play anyway."

Under scenarios A&B I'd argue absolutely no penalty. Under scenario C, a case could be made that the players should be DQ'd under:

804.05A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:

(3) Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play.



I would think that the vast majority of people that have experienced this situation would fall into category B. In case C, I'd be very hesitant to DQ the players unless it was aparent that not only did they know the rule and not make an effort to alert an official, but that there was further evidence that they colluded to take liberties with the rules, if not outright cheat.

On the whole I agree with the response, but are you saying that ignorance is an ok excuse for breaking a rule?

Example A) I've been pulled over for speeding without knowing the speed limit before (open back country roads typically don't post them very often) and that's not an ok excuse for the police.

Example B) If a player in a tournament adds her card incorrectly, should we not give her the correct score + 2 stroke penalty that it should be and rather just tell her that "next time you must take the penalty but it's ok this time"?

I realize that a DQ is much harsher than a stroke or two penalty, but there are rules that must be followed in tournament play. I do agree though that the wording of 804.05A indicates that there must be some intent in violating the rules rather than incidental violation in order for a DQ, but it's often very difficult to prove intent. That's why most of the kids I TA for who we catch cheating aren't sent to honor court. I also agree that there is no other specified penalty, but I don't like the notion that ignorance is an ok excuse. Perhaps this is a good one for the rules Q&A.

I think that every tournament player should have a current rule book they always carry on the course and should have read through it at least once so that unusual situations, like a twosome, would spark something in their mind to maybe check the rules. Wouldn't that be a nice wonderland?

are you saying that ignorance is an ok excuse for breaking a rule?



As in law, some crimes/rules have an intent element and some do not. If you threw from OB, but didn't know it was against the rules, you'll still be penalized.

To DQ a player for cheating, however, requires a "willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play". Without knowledge of a particular rule, there can be no such attempt.

I agree that all players should carry a current rule book in their bags and have read it at least once. I'd be in favor of a rule requiring every player to possess a rule book.

If there are only two players in a division, it could be ok to send them as a twosome. In this area, most of the ladies are well versed in the rules and probably would not have any problems that would require a third to settle. If they did, they would take provisionals and consult with the TD when the round was done. I would always recommend an adult accompany a twosome of Juniors. (For that matter, I always try to send an adult with younger Junior groups no matter how many players.)

I thought the whole point of having at least three players in a group is so that there is someone else to second rules calls when needed.

Since practically "no one" calls rules violations in PDGA play, its a moot point really. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

So what SHOULD the players do?

I've seen this occur when a threesome is scheduled for a hole....and one player is late or doesn't show up at all. The two remaining players aren't sure they're a twosome until the horn blows to start the round---or even later, if they think the missing player may just be "late". This can occur a long way from tournament headquarters, any official, or on some courses, any other hole.

At this point, other groups have started, so they will be "late" or even miss a hole if they join other groups. Would it be best to stay put, join the group behind them when they reach the twosome's starting hole, then finish their missing hole at the end (with an official joining them for that one hole)?

I've only been in this position once, for a final round when the two of us were the bottom of the division, so we just played as a twosome. But I've known of people scrambling to work this out, especially on early Sunday rounds when a few players may have slept late, misunderstood the starting time, or even rudely gone home without telling anyone.

If there are only two players in a division, it could be ok to send them as a twosome.

...except that it violates tournament standards and rules. A twosome can play when accompanied by an official.

So what SHOULD the players do?

You should wait for the group behind to catch up. Then you either play as a fivesome, or if they are already a foursome you form two threesomes. At the end of the round they are going to finish before you, so whoever wound up on your card needs to accompany you and the other guy while you finish your last hole or two.

If you don't know to do this, you have not broken any rule that you can be penalized for. 804.06(C) is the rule. It is written passively and specifies no penalty. It says twosomes should not happen but does not say whose fault it is if they happen anyway. 804.06(C) is written more like a tournament procedure than a rule.

At 2000 Worlds they explained this procedure to us, I think, or maybe at some A-tier I played in 1999. I remember talking about it at 2000 Worlds at the Monster with a guy on my card after the two minute warning when the other two were nowhere to be seen. But they came jogging into sight just in time and it became moot.

"You should wait for the group behind to catch up. Then you either play as a fivesome, or if they are already a foursome you form two threesomes....."

Makes sense to me. Of course, Murphy's law would have the missing player(s) show up after we've played two holes, so we can start a new discussion on what group they should join and how many holes they should be penalized for missing......

On second thought, let's not.

What, if any, is the penalty for a twosome that plays 6 holes in a tournament before they are discovered? Rule #804.06C
This was in second round and one round on Sunday to follow this one.
Thanks any help would be appreciated
Uncle Bob



2005 DGLO the TD put a twosome out on the course with no consequences. Players complained but no action was taken.

Kevin McCoy can tell you more.

I'm going to put a twosome on the course with no consequences, too, if the situation merits it. If I'm running threesomes in open and I have two "Breaking Away" players who are 20 and 30 strokes off the lead, I'm not wasting anyone's time sending an official with them. If I have two junior girls and one is beating the other by 30 throws, same thing.

It is a rule without a penalty. I don't think the PDGA is going to suspend me for breaking this rule. I'll do what makes sense for the tournament I'm running.

I can see why someone might seperate out two players, but the problem still exists in that there are no supporting calls and a group majority cannot be reached. I came across a group of players that only had two once and they knew the rule, but were stymied. The group behind them had 4 players and the group ahead of them had 4. I was not in their division so I acted as an official and took one player from the group behind them and made two threesomes.

I'm going to put a twosome on the course with no consequences, too, if the situation merits it. If I'm running threesomes in open and I have two "Breaking Away" players who are 20 and 30 strokes off the lead, I'm not wasting anyone's time sending an official with them. If I have two junior girls and one is beating the other by 30 throws, same thing.

It is a rule without a penalty. I don't think the PDGA is going to suspend me for breaking this rule. I'll do what makes sense for the tournament I'm running.



At the 2004 Worlds they told us TDs that we could send twosomes out if it would speed play (i.e. avoid a fivesome)if they two players were well behind the rest in their division.

What if they claim an ace?