May a player turn in someone for breaking rule 804.05 after waiting to see how their final score stacks up against the offender (without making the call at the time of the infraction)?

804.05 makes no mention of time frame.

Because of the strong reaction of some offenders, it may be in the best inerest of the reporter to not directly approach the offender at the time of the offense.

Selectively granting amnesty to players just because you are beating them is not right. The rule should be equally enforced without regard to how poorly the offender played.

Oh, wait - I think you may have meant that the other way around. :cool:

I say the answer is no, you may not. That could be considred poor sportsmanship, which in the eyes of many is worse than the original offense.

I say the answer is no, you may not. That could be considred poor sportsmanship, which in the eyes of many is worse than the original offense.


In my experience in PDGA events, calling *any* rules infraction is considred worse sportsmanship than the breaking of any rule, 804.05 or not.

So, what's a TD supposed to do?
If they don't make the call immediately, either by stopping play and finding a TD or Official, or at least making sure the other members of the group are aware of what is happening and noting it on the score card, in my mind they are giving the offenders a friendly chance to "Don't get caught with that". Same as with any other rules violation, you can't save them up to see if you are going to win without the call.

Calling a rules infraction after you see how your score stacks up, is spineless and in poor taste. I don't care what rule it is.

What were they doing, smoking grass or breaking tree limbs?

Either way, it's something that should have been called the moment it was witnessed don't you think? Waiting until much later kind of makes it a 'he said, she said' thing.

Call the offense immediately.
Waiting until after the whole event is over leaves the possibility of the offender breaking the rules again the next round, when it might distract even more players.

Many players might think that reporting rules violations is uncool and unnecessary.
They are wrong.
It is uncool to break rules and put others in the uncomfortable spot of "snitching" or "not snitching".

Playing by the rules and keeping sanctioned rounds "clean" is essential in bringing the sport to a truly professional level.

Using your score as a determining factor of whether or not you report someone under 804.05 may be spineless and in poor taste. BUT - the practicality of stopping play to search out an official at MOST PDGA events (where there are seldom more than one non-playing official) could be more trouble than just waiting til the end of the round to report to the TD.
Whether this is "allowed"? I would say reporting such an infraction after a round is perfectly legit. If the players motivations for reporting are dictated by his score - well that may be unfortunate, but not against the rules. "SHOULD" the player have acted a different way? Easy for us to say - could be quite a few factors influencing the ability to do so.

The rule should be brought to the TD's attention immediately, or if you have an official available at the time it occurred. I have seen this called after the fact and no other player was willing to back it up. The saving grace was the player admitted his error and was dq'd.

May a player turn in someone for breaking rule 804.05 after waiting to see how their final score stacks up against the offender



Did they wait until the end of the round, or end of the tournament? If the infraction was cited at the time it happened, then addressed it w/ the TD immediately after THAT round, then I would say it was handled correctly. If the person who called the infraction waited until after the subsiquent round(s), I think the infraction in question is null and void. It is your responsibility as a player to CALL rules infractions when they happen, discuss w/ individuals on the card, come to a consensus, and report the infraction to the TD at the end of THAT round...I still don't understand why it's so hard for people to call rules infractions....oh wait, the majority of competitive disc golfers don't know the rules /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

While I agree with you, it should be called ASAP, unlike quite a few rules, there is no time limit on 804.05 and I am afraid that it can be called up until the awards ceremony. After that it would be the PDGA Ruling committees responsibility and I doubt they would follow up on a call that late that had not been brought to the TD's attention.



Did they wait until the end of the round, or end of the tournament? If the infraction was cited at the time it happened, then addressed it w/ the TD immediately after THAT round, then I would say it was handled correctly. If the person who called the infraction waited until after the subsiquent round(s), I think the infraction in question is null and void. It is your responsibility as a player to CALL rules infractions when they happen, discuss w/ individuals on the card, come to a consensus, and report the infraction to the TD at the end of THAT round...I still don't understand why it's so hard for people to call rules infractions....oh wait, the majority of competitive disc golfers don't know the rules /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The infraction happened during the 3rd round (the final round for this division), reportedly on the 14 Hole. The group started on the 6th Hole. 2 Holes after the alleged infraction, the group passed by Tournament HQ (between Holes #16 & #17). Nothing was mentioned to anyone at HQ at this time. No mention to the group that there had been any infraction. Nothing was brought up until the scores for that round had been added, and being the leader card for the INT. division, everyone then knew where they were standing scorewise.

The infraction happened during the 3rd round (the final round for this division), reportedly on the 14 Hole. The group started on the 6th Hole. 2 Holes after the alleged infraction, the group passed by Tournament HQ (between Holes #16 & #17). Nothing was mentioned to anyone at HQ at this time. No mention to the group that there had been any infraction. Nothing was brought up until the scores for that round had been added, and being the leader card for the INT. division, everyone then knew where they were standing scorewise.


It's a tough spot.

Personally, I have resigned myself to the fact that our rules just won't be called. It is a sad state of affairs, but that is how it is. I enjoy disc golfing and competing in tournaments, so it is a real shame that I cannot count of a level playing field to compete in. That being said, I am not willing to quit playing tournaments over it, although I must admit that for me this is one of the things that has really taken some of the "shine" off of tournament competition for me.

So I applaud anyone who is willing to actually call any rule at a PDGA tournament, and I would hate for them to end up where I am, disgusted with the whole process and unwilling to call rules infractions anymore. So good job, whoever, for whatever reason you had to make the make the call.

People in this thread are calling the action cowardly because the caller waited until the scores were added. Well, I have mixed feelings about that as I would like to see all infractions called when they happen, but since currently almost no infractions ever get called, I am okay if egregious rules violations that damage the sport get called for any reason.

And think about it: if you are on the leader-card of any division at a PDGA sancitoned tournament, you should expect more scrutiny and you should act accordingly. Don't act all surprised that you are held to a higher standard (pun intended) when you are leading the division. It comes with the territory. Don't violate 804.05 and you won't get called or DQ'd. If you are on the leader card and have a chance to win, why jeopardize that by DQ-able behavior? If the guy in 2nd really wants to win, you just gave him the opportunity. Tough [censored] for you, congrats to him for making the call.

I agree with Rhett on everything except the part about the monkeys.

I disagree. In this case Rhetts solution is part of the problem. If the parties involved are not going to make the call unless they get beat, then that is just as bad a not making it at all. If the offending player would not have won, then he would not have gotten called on the rules.

Rhett is endorsing a double standard on rules calling with the better late than never attitude. What a bunch of BS.

Rhett,

Fellow DGRZ, say it ain't so!!! Please don't give up the good fight! Remember, the rules are defenseless, and we are called upon to defend the defenseless.

Yes, you pay a price when you defend the Rules, but you are and can continue to be an example to others of how Disc Golf can be honored and respected by adhering to the Rules, and, with respect and encouragment, admonish others who are not adhering.

If not for me, and if not for the Rules of the Game, then fight on to honor the memory of Scott Wolfe!

Please!

Rhett is endorsing a double standard on rules calling with the better late than never attitude. What a bunch of BS.


I firmly believe a "better late than never" attitude that holds the winners and potential winners to a higher standard than the last place finishers is *FAR* better than what we have now, which pretty much holds NO ONE to any standards.

It's a start.

In a frickin' ideal world we all follow all the rules, and no one gets mad when they are called on a violation because we all try hard to follow all the rules so we want to know when we mess one up, and all violations that are noticed get called.

I know for a fact that we don't live in that ideal world. The double standard would, to me, be a welcome positive movement towards the ideal.

I think that in the Olympics all the medal winners are immediatle tested for stuff the rest of the field isn't. It seems fair to me. They are all there to win a medal, so if they cheat and win they have a better chance of getting caught than the guy that cheated and didn't win. Sure it's a double standard, but so what?

The infraction happened during the 3rd round (the final round for this division), reportedly on the 14 Hole. The group started on the 6th Hole. 2 Holes after the alleged infraction, the group passed by Tournament HQ (between Holes #16 & #17). Nothing was mentioned to anyone at HQ at this time. No mention to the group that there had been any infraction. Nothing was brought up until the scores for that round had been added, and being the leader card for the INT. division, everyone then knew where they were standing scorewise.


It's a tough spot.

Personally, I have resigned myself to the fact that our rules just won't be called. It is a sad state of affairs, but that is how it is. I enjoy disc golfing and competing in tournaments, so it is a real shame that I cannot count of a level playing field to compete in. That being said, I am not willing to quit playing tournaments over it, although I must admit that for me this is one of the things that has really taken some of the "shine" off of tournament competition for me.

So I applaud anyone who is willing to actually call any rule at a PDGA tournament, and I would hate for them to end up where I am, disgusted with the whole process and unwilling to call rules infractions anymore. So good job, whoever, for whatever reason you had to make the make the call.

People in this thread are calling the action cowardly because the caller waited until the scores were added. Well, I have mixed feelings about that as I would like to see all infractions called when they happen, but since currently almost no infractions ever get called, I am okay if egregious rules violations that damage the sport get called for any reason.

And think about it: if you are on the leader-card of any division at a PDGA sancitoned tournament, you should expect more scrutiny and you should act accordingly. Don't act all surprised that you are held to a higher standard (pun intended) when you are leading the division. It comes with the territory. Don't violate 804.05 and you won't get called or DQ'd. If you are on the leader card and have a chance to win, why jeopardize that by DQ-able behavior? If the guy in 2nd really wants to win, you just gave him the opportunity. Tough [censored] for you, congrats to him for making the call.



Not everyone is scared to call the rules. If you end up on my card, expect the rules to be called when I see them and I expect the same if I happen to break them.

In my oppinion it is not that people do not know the rules, it is that people are scared to call the rules, because of the stigma that comes with it.

Richard

Aside from not being a very good player, the main reason I stopped playing tournaments is because too many players do not know the rules, and when an infraction is pointed out, people get nasty. Since there doesn't seem to be any organized effort to change this, I don't play in tournaments.

It doesn't matter whether it's 804.05 or any other rule. Infractions are generally not called and enforcement is inconsistent when they are called. When the PDGA takes the lead in consistent enforcement of the rules, things will change. Until then, we have the current state of affairs.

This may be a bit of a stretch, but as a new player (rec level on a good day) I don't mind having rules called and explained. To read the rules is one thing, but until you are actually faced with a violation during a round of play, it might not sink in or may have little meaning on paper. I understand that this statement had more to do with rules pertaining to mandos or ob or footfaults and the like, but I thought it was an observation that was close enough for the discussion.

804.05 doesn't seem to be one of the rules that needs a whole lot of experience to understand. It seems to be the "don't cheat and don't be an a$$hole" rule.

Thanks for letting me get involved!

Sweeps

It doesn't matter whether it's 804.05 or any other rule. Infractions are generally not called and enforcement is inconsistent when they are called. When the PDGA takes the lead in consistent enforcement of the rules, things will change. Until then, we have the current state of affairs.


I think holding the lead card to a higher standard for rules compliance is a good first step. We can't afford marshalls on every hole making calls, and that would just foster a "if you aren't cheating then you aren't trying" attitude found in other sports where they try to "get away" with things without the ref seeing them.

There could be a trickle-down effect, too, where people who wish to end up on the lead card start adhering to the rules better and maybe even are willing to make some calls, especially if they had been called for stuff while on the lead card.

In any event, it would be better than it is now. I really do not see a downside.

For those who would give Rhett grief, I've argued with Rhett on rules calling and seen him take a beating here on rules calling and on rules he's called. He's correct, the problem is endemic and it is more hassle than it is currently worth. I found this out the same way Rhett did by actually calling rules violations and being harrassed on the course to the point where it was easier to keep my mouth shut.

Here's the solution; when a rules violation is called, any argument is a courtesy warning/violation, period. It doesn't matter if you're right, arguing is prohibited. If a rule is called on you and you feel the call is incorrect, you record the call and make a notation on the card, then discuss it with the TD after the round.


A hard and fast rule like this will make it a lot easier to make calls. If you're given any grief, simply call a courtesy violation and ask for the card to record the violation.

I know this solution has some risk to it for abuse, but as it currently stands, calling a rules violation simply puts you in the way of whatever anger and frustration the rules breaker decides to unleash on you.

Those sound like great solutions and they would probably work if an organized effort to implement those policies was supported. But when a player can verbally abuse others on the card, damage the course, and still be crowned a world champion, the problem is huge and needs to be addressed by the organization at large rather than a few well-intentioned individuals.

Perhaps starting with the state coordinators can produce some results.
IMHO, SCs in general can do a better job of holding TDs accountable for enforcing the rules as well as reporting tournament results on time.

But we all know that a TD cannot be everywhere and do everything, so maybe they can enlist Certified Officials to help during events.

Has anyone actually called upon all Certified Officials to be "on" during an event? This might be one of the most overlooked possibilities, but I'm not quite sure of how they would be utilized or if they can be coaxed into this responsibility.

Be careful of the urge to let "somebody else" deal with this problem. If you care about rules being followed, don't cop out and make it someone else's responsibility (Certified Officials, PDGA, TD's SC's). Do it yourself. I admit that I haven't been one to call violations in the past, but I am seeing that I have been part ofthe problem. I'm going to give myself a new challenge: when I see an infraction, in the least I will give a verbal warning, to help educate players and let them know that the rules are being watched. That's a start.

You are absolutely correct!
What I wasn't clear about was that a more structured method of calling/reporting violations needs to be in place IN TANDEM WITH players stepping up and doing the right thing.

In tournament play I have discovered that I no problem calling a rules violation. My reasoning goes like this; I have given up a weekend, dropped the bucks to be there, driven several miles and/or reserved a motel. So...... I expect grown men (and women) to behave with some honor.

If I let a card partner willingly violate the rules, then it is a given that they have no respect for me from the get go. I have nothing to lose.

If I let a card partner UN-willingly violate the rules, then I have disrespected them by allowing them to compete with an unfair advantage by not telling them.

In summary, Nope, I got no problem calling dem der rules.

More later on some approaches I have used that usually work in keeping the game friendly.

Ron Pittman

Last weekend our group called a player on another card for 804.02A violation. His first tourney, but I bet he won't be late for another round. His card was half way to the tee when he showed up and threw his drive :eek:.

Call the rules in all PDGA sanctioned events and these rule breakers will be fewer :cool:

Here's an example of the level of rules enforcement from our parent game:

Players in Q-school (PGA qualifying tournament) are not allowed to use multiple brands of golf balls. A player reaches in and accidentally grabs a ball of a different brand than that with which he has been playing and hits it. He realizes his mistake and reports himself to a PGA official. With regrets, the official informs him he is disqualified. No PGA tour this year for this player.

Integrity is part of what golf is all about. Disc golf has a long way to go.

Mike,

You were listening to NPR this morning too, huh? It made me want to read Feinstein's new book about Q School - it might give some on here more of an appreciation about our rules, as well as our sport.

Here's an example of the level of rules enforcement from our parent game:

Players in Q-school (PGA qualifying tournament) are not allowed to use multiple brands of golf balls. A player reaches in and accidentally grabs a ball of a different brand than that with which he has been playing and hits it. He realizes his mistake and reports himself to a PGA official. With regrets, the official informs him he is disqualified. No PGA tour this year for this player.

Integrity is part of what golf is all about. Disc golf has a long way to go.


I wish y'all would quit trying to compare disc golf to The PGA Tour. Frickin' knock it off already. :mad: There is no comparison.

If you insist on trying to make the denigrating comparison of the pathetic non-integrity disc golfer with the wondrous halo wearing ball golfer, at least frickin' try to do an apples to apples comparison.

Go down to the local muni with the cheapest greens fees for your ball golfers fo the comparison. There you will find beer chugging, loud swearing, ball-kicking, mulligan taking ball golfers that make your typical disc golfer look quite virtuous.

There's an old saying in business about how watching how a man acts on the ball golf course says a lot about the man, and that can help you get on read on how he will act as a business partner. That saying isn't there because everyone that ball golfs is a saint.

The PGA Tour players, and those players Q School hoping to be PGA Tour players, are a completely different animal. A guy on the PGA Tour who screws up and breaks a rule has every financial incentive in the universe to self-report quickly. Sure it might cost him $10,000 this week and many people seem to thing that makes him virtuous. But the fact of the matter is that next week he won't have the opportunity to win hundreds of thousands of dollars in the that tourney if he is suspended, so not calling himself this week would be stupid.

Disc golfers and 99.99999% of the rest of the ball golfers on the planet have no such financial incentive to be so virtuous, and they aren't.

So PLEASE leave PGA Tour players out of it!

Well, I for one enjoy the ball golf/disc golf analogies.

I think that comparing tournament playing PDGA members to PGA professionals is like comparing granny smith apples to red delicious apples...they are close. The twilight ball golfer that you speak of (beer drinking, mulligan taking, no sand trap raking SOBs) are easily compared to our pot smoking, beer drinking course destroying casual disc golfers. The similarities are abundant.

Everyone that I know wants disc golf to be as popular, lucrative, and well-respected as ball golf. I do not see what is so wrong with comparing the two? Just because we will NEVER be like ball golf does not mean that we cannot model ourselves around the things that they do right.

Especially whith regards to calling ourselves on rules, we can't even call each other on rules violations let alone ourselves. Rules violations are definately a page that should be taken from the book that ball golf has written.

Keep it coming there are more of us that would like to hear ball/disc golf comparisons. ;)

I wish I didn't have to listen to pleas to stop comparing ball golf and disc golf.

The comparison is between pro disc golfers and pro ball golfers. The loud-mouthed ball-kicking folks who chug cheap yellow beer that you can see through are not part of the comparison, at least from my viewpoint. Those folks generally don't play tournaments and there are plenty of folks like that in disc golf that don't play tournaments either.

Let's compare Tiger Woods to Brad Hammock. If Tiger flipped out like Hammock did at last year's Worlds, he would be done because it would not be tolerated. From all reports, Hammock was allowed to stay in the tournament despite his extremely poor behaviour because no two players would stand up to it and an official did not witness it.

There's your comparison.

If Tiger gets mad its on TV, if Brad gets mad it makes it in the minds of those present! I understand the importance of rule integrity and proper callling, but you would never have the situation you are presenting as a comparison reversed in ball golf, there are far more officials on the course, players will loose out financiallly with these kinds of outburts from sponsors and the media will hold them to a higher standard.

If Disc golf had the media coverage that ball golf enjoys we would not have issues like Brad's meltdown at a High Caliber event like Worlds, regardless of whether or not an official or fellow golfers came forward. The pressure of film exposure would provide the governing force!

The whole Brad thing is even unclear to most golfers at this point, most have heard 3rd and 4th hand recaps of the incident and it has become so twisted and distorted even on this message board that is hard to even consider it fact. If the media was in our sport we would at least have an entitiy that through presenting would have to have the integrity to put forth a proper representation of the incident. Something far less people would shrug off, including our governing body!!

Until we get there, the PDGA could request of local clubs to present more PDGA certified officials on site at major events, enough to ensure things like this will not continue in the future, we should also take our sport and standards more seriously and implement a weigh in requirement for competitors disc at majors. The more professionalism we require and show at larger event, the more we can expect to trickle down to smaller events.

do pdga officials have to be retested?

I took the test years ago and really don't feel confident/qualified to.....

the pdga retests officials when a new edition of the rule book comes out, i believe.

Each time the rules are updated, they ask the question and decide whether to retest. I don't believe they've retested for any updates since about 1997.

Sounds accurate. I've been an official since 1998, and I've never been retested.

Each time the rules are updated, they ask the question and decide whether to retest. I don't believe they've retested for any updates since about 1997.



well being a top 10 official (by date cetified):D
i can verify that there hasn't been a retest, even though we have had 2 revisions to the rules book ('02 and '06)

keith(is that really lightning? :eek:)johnson

keith(is that really lightning? :eek:)johnson



Always good to see my friend Keith(doesn't want to find out 'cause it can kill you :eek:) Johnson

And take my word for it, it don't feel good!

Calling a rules infraction after you see how your score stacks up, is spineless and in poor taste. I don't care what rule it is.



After 30+ years in the "Frisbee Family"...

Good old Frisbee games had no officials. If you saw an infraction you called it and decided with the offender (and the other players) if it was a valid call. Then you went on with the game. Your personal honor and respect for the "ideal of Frisbee play" were paramount.

This ideal seem to be gone, although I still pass it on to those who have never heard it. Sad.

If a player is in violation of 804.05 it should be called at the time and noted by the group. If the offending (DQed)player wants to continue playing, I don't think that the group could force him/her to quit. Let them play. At the end of the round the TD should/will nullify the round score anyway.

If the infraction call was made, as it seems to be in the first post, to gain an advantage over the offending player at the end of the event (this may be hard to prove), then the person who made the call also is in violation of 804.05 A(1) and A(3). DQ both players.

Craig #9103

So, if a possibly DQ'd player continues their round, can they then make calls on other players for the remainder of the round? What if this happens to a 3-some card?

Blah, blah...I know!

I knew that if I didn't list all of the consequences of allowing the offending player to stay with his/her group someone else would.

Since the group knew and applied the rules they would also know how to proceed with the DQed player in their group.

Craig #9103

The group can not DQ a player (unless the TD happens to be in the group), only the TD can DQ a player.

If a player stops playing when the call is made, they are withdrawing from the event. If such is the case, it is likely that the TD will not go through the motions of DQing a player that has already withdrawn. Stopping play could be a good way to keep the infraction from being reported to the PDGA.

well being a top 10 official (by date cetified):D



Did you really say that? After your "foray" into the rules at the VAO - I wouldn't be touting your skills as an official :(

well being a top 10 official (by date cetified):D



Did you really say that? After your "foray" into the rules at the VAO - I wouldn't be touting your skills as an official :(



sorry craig, barking up the wrong tree there my friend....

maybe one day i'll be as perfect as you are

...and maybe one day the rules will adequately address all situations.

...and maybe one day the rules will adequately address all situations.



Not Likely...not sure I would even want that. I prefer qualified TD's that can make swift, congruous, and consistent judgements based on the pdga rules and how they apply to the particular circumstances.

I hope you are feeling better Mike! We missed your "spotting" and your "drumming" (both late night and at the awards ceremony) at the VAO 07 :cool:

Not Likely...



True dat.