So here is an interesting question and is only a question because I saw something like this a couple of weeks back. Here is what happened, the player threw a drive and it went across the street. On this hole the street ran parallel to the fairway and during the players meeting the TD stated that if you have to cross a road it is not OB, however if you have a street parallel to the fairway it is then crossing the street is OB. I didn't make the rule, I just played the tournement. Anyway the player did not play it as OB and even asked the group if it was OB and was told by the group it was not. They were wrong by the way. He finishes the hole and after the round, before the card was turned in, though I don't think that makes a difference here, he was told of his misplay, and later received the 2 stroke penality. The rules:

801.04 D. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the pertinent hole or holes have been completed (holed out), the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

AND

801.04 E. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the player has turned in his or her scorecard, the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

So here are the questions

- Can the penality be applied at any time? I believe the answer is yes since this does not give a time restriction.
- Since the group said it was in, technically they instructed the player to mis-play the hole. Should they have also received a penality? My answer is no because the player was just as responsible for knowing the rules and course layout as the rest of the group, but then again.......
- There does not appear to be a number of players needed to make the call, could one player alone make the call? What if a player on the second card sees a misplay and reports the whole top card for the error?

Player is responsible, therefore play a provisional and ask the TD later if in doubt!

Agreed

Player is responsible for being at the players meeting and understanding the course rules. He got bad information from the group who equally understood the rules wrong (or, were in colusion together to gain an advantage over him? Doesnt sound like it in this case) But, he made the misplay...he gets the penalty. Unfortunate that the rest of the group cant be penalized some how. If there were ANY questions in his mind, he should have played a provisional.

If a whole card plays a temp hole, that is NOT being used THAT round, are the extra strokes practice strokes? or should the card only get a 2 stroke penatly?

This happened this weekend. The TD gave them 2 strokes. In my opinion, since the hole was NOT a part of that round, they are practice throws, and should be counted on the scorecard.

IMO The TD was being kind. Reading through the misplay rules, the general theme is count every throw. If the mistake is caught early enough, count the toss as a practice throw and correct the mistake. If not caught early enough, count the throws as acceptable and add 2 for the misplay.

In this case, the simplest reading says count the throws as practice throws and move on. I could see a TD adding +2 on top of that, but I believe that to be excessive.

Closest equivalent:

801.04 B. (3) (3) Wrong Target: If a player holes out on the wrong target for a given hole, he or she will continue play from a lie directly beneath that target, without penalty. If the player holes out at the wrong target, and believes the hole is completed, and proceeds to play the next hole, a two-throw penalty will be added to that player's score for misplaying the course.

If they then played the temp hole as extra, the scores could then be corrected to remove the extra hole. However, as I review the rule I don't see anything that allows the extra hole score to be removed. Did they skip a hole? I think another problem comes in if they skipped a hole that is significantly more difficult then the temp hole played instead. The rule does not allow the "missed hole" to be replayed. What if the players skipped a par 5 hole and played a temp hole that was par 3 instead? It is quite possible that the missed hole could have yielded scores significantly higher.



If a whole card plays a temp hole, that is NOT being used THAT round, are the extra strokes practice strokes? or should the card only get a 2 stroke penatly?

This happened this weekend. The TD gave them 2 strokes. In my opinion, since the hole was NOT a part of that round, they are practice throws, and should be counted on the scorecard.

The rule does not allow the "missed hole" to be replayed.



Reread 801.04.B(5) slowly. Missed holes are still played.

The hole was NOT part of that round. It was to be played the following round. They finished that hole, went to score it and realized it was NOT to be played. IMO it's a stroke for every throw, and possibly a penalty as well.

From your description, it seems the course was played correctly (i.e. hole 1, then hole 2, then hole 3) plus the card threw a bunch of shots on an area that was not in play during the tournament. All of those throws should count as practice throws since none of them was from a valid lie or on a valid hole.

I don't see a need for an additional penalty if the rest of the round was completed correctly.

Go back and re-read 801.04 E. even more slowly ;)



The rule does not allow the "missed hole" to be replayed.



Reread 801.04.B(5) slowly. Missed holes are still played.

Gary,

I am guessing that depends. If they turned the card in and said, well we made this mistake, they would get a 2 stroke penality and maybe the TD would ignore the extra hole played as a misplay. If they corrected the score first, they would need to stroke themselves (no pun intended) to the amount of the throws as practice throws. So, unless everyone got an ace, or a two, it would probably behoove them to turn the card in under a misplay rule. I understand why you say it would be counted as practice throws, but in effect they played a Mis-Tee which is considered a misplay and Wrong Target, which is also considered a misplay. Both are defined in 801.4


From your description, it seems the course was played correctly (i.e. hole 1, then hole 2, then hole 3) plus the card threw a bunch of shots on an area that was not in play during the tournament. All of those throws should count as practice throws since none of them was from a valid lie or on a valid hole.

I don't see a need for an additional penalty if the rest of the round was completed correctly.

This is one of the things we have to deal with that ball golf doesn't have to. They play 18 holes on the same permanent holes that are there. Not only that, they are allowed to practice after completing holes if it doesn't slow play.

Even though our players are responsible for knowing the course in our rules, I've seen many situations where the TD is as much culpable for routing or tee errors as the players. It's hard to know in this situation how well marked the holes were and what was in writing. While I agree that strict interpretation of the rule would count their shots as practice throws, perhaps guilt on the part of the TD led to the 2-shot penalty. If you look closely, you'll see that the RC is pretty much of the opinion via our curent version of the rules that a 2-shot penalty is the max anyone should get for a specific infraction with DQ being the next level of penalty.

Chuck,

This is pretty much what I was argueing, 2 strokes for misplay, but what if the misplay results in the players playing a much easier hole. As an example, a final 9 for the top of the field in a new design of monster holes. Not uncommon, I have seen it at several events. One group does not listen carefully and manages to bypass a par 5 hole with a miss-tee/wrong traget. Maybe even one of the 'normal' holes. They then finish out the round correctly and someone notices that they got a couple of threes and twos on a hole the rest of the field took fives and sixes. With a two stroke penality, they manged, through misplay, to get a one stroke better average. As I read 801.04 E., they do not replay the hole. I agree that 2 strokes appears to be the max penality, but what do you do in the above situation?


This is one of the things we have to deal with that ball golf doesn't have to. They play 18 holes on the same permanent holes that are there. Not only that, they are allowed to practice after completing holes if it doesn't slow play.

Even though our players are responsible for knowing the course in our rules, I've seen many situations where the TD is as much culpable for routing or tee errors as the players. It's hard to know in this situation how well marked the holes were and what was in writing. While I agree that strict interpretation of the rule would count their shots as practice throws, perhaps guilt on the part of the TD led to the 2-shot penalty. If you look closely, you'll see that the RC is pretty much of the opinion via our curent version of the rules that a 2-shot penalty is the max anyone should get for a specific infraction with DQ being the next level of penalty.

As an example, a final 9 for the top of the field in a new design of monster holes. Not uncommon, I have seen it at several events.



Again, have you ever seen this in ball golf where they create a safari course? As soon as the TD varies from existing holes and sequences, I believe they take on much more of the responsibility for players to play the layout correctly. In your scenario where an easier par hole was played, if were I were the marshal or TD in that situation, I would likely make those players play the correct hole, give them a 2-shot penalty and throw out their scores on the wrong hole. Nothing like having a gallery watch them as they correct their mistake. :)

I think I would consider this appropriate even if the hole they played was the same par as the one missed. Since Final 9s fall in a grey area (i.e, special versus standard rounds) and are more part of the Competition section 804 of the rules, most of that section will be taken over by the Competition Committee in the future and rules for these special endings may directly deal with this situation.

I don't see that there is any real option.

You are to count all throws made from the start of the round to the finish except for those provisional throws made in accordance with the rules.

I can see Chuck's point, but must raise the point that all of those decisions are two strokes in addition to whatever throws the players made. I just don't see how to remove actual throws made during a round and be fair to those players that paid attention at the players meeting and didn't play the temp hole during the round.

If the infraction happened in a regular round, then it has to be score on the hole plus 2, even if the hole was easier than the one they were supposed to play. If it was proven to be an intentional misplay, then a DQ.

I believe even under current rules, TDs have more flexibility for dealing with misplays in safari Final 9s as I suggested. I would certainly inform the Competition Director of an approach such as playing the correct hole at the end and throwing out a score. Another alternative to consider would be to have the players in the group take the last four places among those in their division who played the final.

Go back and re-read 801.04 E. even more slowly ;)



The rule does not allow the "missed hole" to be replayed.



Reread 801.04.B(5) slowly. Missed holes are still played.





If the score card was turned in with a missing hole, then the players who did not card a score would be DNF'd and may be DQ'd at the TDs discretion. If they notice when adding up the scores that a score is missing, they can go back and play the hole with +2. If we're going to argue, at least we should be talking about the same thing.

If the infraction happened in a regular round, then it has to be score on the hole plus 2, even if the hole was easier than the one they were supposed to play. If it was proven to be an intentional misplay, then a DQ.



Are you saying that a card can substitute a hole that was not supposed to be played for one that was supposed to be played.

I think the rules are very clear in stating that as soon as a misplay is discovered all of the missed holes are to be played. When you get to a hole that you have already played, you skip to the next one that you haven't played. I don't think it allows for a hole to be missed or substituted with another.

That is how I read it as well. The rules accounts for holes that are played incorrectly, but in that case the understanding is that you have to have at least played at least some part of the actual hole to actually be considered (correct tee or correct target) playing the hole. If a hole is missed, you have to go back and play it.

I suppose I could see someone reading that wrong tee 801.04.B(1) + wrong target 801.04.B(3) = actual throws at made up hole + 4, but that's stretching it. Count em as practice throws and make em play the hole.

Go back and read the thread more carefully :)

The players played an extra hole...they did not miss any holes they were supposed to play. They played an extra hole they were not supposed to play that round.

Background: This tournament had 26 holes set up in total. You played 21 of them in the first round, then you played 20 of them in the second round. They were not the same holes both rounds entirely. The order of the holes to be played was printed on the scorecard only. You would go from hole 1 to 2, to E4, back to 3, etc... You had to be REALLY careful so that you didn't misplay the course.

I wasn't asked to make the call on the groups in question, but I don't have a problem with the call. The TD bears some responsibilty here for the misplay, with the rather circuitous course being played, and some holes omitted one round, and different holes omitted the next round. I actually called it before the event....I knew someone would misplay the course the way it was set up. It's my belief that 803.01F was properly applied here. The players were penalized 2 throws for misplaying the course. Having them take practice throws when the course set up as helter-skelter as it was was far too Draconian a penalty.

Chap

Mike,

I am not trying to argue with you, just debate the point and come to a common agreement. We have several discussions going on here, my assumption was the card was turned in and the mis-play was determined. From this standpoint there was no missed hole according to the score card, there was either an extra hole played or a hole played incorrectly. There are no rules that govern a hole played incorrectly in the manner discussed so we have to determine the closest fit. I can see your point for practice throws, but a much closer fit would be mis-play, at least from where I see it.

If we follow your line or reasoning, then if it was practice throws it would be a full count of throws, as was put on the card, no mis-play occurred. However, if the players played the hole believing the hole was part of the course layout then a much closer fit would be mis-play. If the card was turned in, then the rule very clearly states the hole cannot be replayed. There are no allowances for replaying the hole. Period.

If you are going to debate with me, make sure that we are addressing the same points. You were the one who called out the point without determining the basics of the discussion or the assumptions made.




If the score card was turned in with a missing hole, then the players who did not card a score would be DNF'd and may be DQ'd at the TDs discretion. If they notice when adding up the scores that a score is missing, they can go back and play the hole with +2. If we're going to argue, at least we should be talking about the same thing.

So the ruling was right? Omit the score on the hole not played that round and just add 2 stroke penalty to the round score?

Was there ever a better reason NOT to have added holes on a course?

Keeping what appears to be a strange round setup, it would have behooved the TD to bag the targets not used during the round to eliminate confusion.

Keeping what appears to be a strange round setup, it would have behooved the TD to bag the targets not used during the round to eliminate confusion.




Ding, Ding, Ding!!!! Folks we have a winner!!!!!

You could also put a trash barrel or a huge X in duct tape on the tee pad. There are a number of ways this situation could have been avoided in the first place. This falls under Course Set-up 101.

Agreed.


Keeping what appears to be a strange round setup, it would have behooved the TD to bag the targets not used during the round to eliminate confusion.

I am not sure that a majority has been reached, but it appears that is what John Chapman has stated and he is the closest to the rules committee.


So the ruling was right? Omit the score on the hole not played that round and just add 2 stroke penalty to the round score?

The prerequisite to Course Setup 101 is Common Sense 100 :D

TD's - Please include this in your schedule this semester.

So the ruling was right? Omit the score on the hole not played that round and just add 2 stroke penalty to the round score?



Was the ruling correct? I think the arm chair quarterbacks are not in complete agreement. Much of the ruling here requires more information (e.g. were all holes played, when was the problem caught, how clear was the course routing instructions, etc.) than any of us has (except maybe John Chapman as it sounds like was there.) Since the TD could partially be to blame here, +2 might not have been right, but it was the right thing to do.

So the ruling was right? Omit the score on the hole not played that round and just add 2 stroke penalty to the round score?



Was the ruling correct? I think the arm chair quarterbacks are not in complete agreement. Much of the ruling here requires more information (e.g. were all holes played, when was the problem caught, how clear was the course routing instructions, etc.) than any of us has (except maybe John Chapman as it sounds like was there.) Since the TD could partially be to blame here, +2 might not have been right, but it was the right thing to do.



If I've followed the thread correctly, this question refers to a group that played a hole not on the course and missed a hole that was on the course. (as opposed to the case of playing all the holes on the course plus one extra that was not on the course.)

If I were the TD, I'd use 801.03D(5) and have them go back on the course and play the right hole. I think, particularly since the TD is partially to blame, that using the ROF to make the penalty 2 strokes and not all the practice strokes would be best. I would not be inclined to accept a scorecard as complete where one or more of the holes on the course were not completed, unless there was a condition such as darkness or weather not affected the entire field.


801.03D(5) Where a group�s or official�s decision is overturned on appeal, the official or director may, in the interest of fairness, allow the thrower�s score to remain the same or adjust the thrower�s score to reflect the correct interpretation of the rules. Only in a case where a replay is the most fair solution, at the discretion of the director, shall a hole or holes be replayed.

Based on the statement that they realized what they had done when they went to score the hole, I thought that every hole had been played in the correct order plus one additional hole that was not scored on the card.

As in:

p1) OK on hole 13, John got a ... wait a minute, we weren't supposed to play hole 13 this round.
p2) what do we do now ???
p3) Play the next hole on the card and tell the TD later.
p4) what's the penalty for this ?
p1) A course misplay is score +2, otherwise it's practice strokes for every throw on that last hole. Really bad for you with that 6 you took.
p4) let's just not put the score down and tell the TD that we misplayed an extra hole.

that's pretty much how it went.

Based on the statement that they realized what they had done when they went to score the hole, I thought that every hole had been played in the correct order plus one additional hole that was not scored on the card.

As in:

p1) OK on hole 13, John got a ... wait a minute, we weren't supposed to play hole 13 this round.
p2) what do we do now ???
p3) Play the next hole on the card and tell the TD later.
p4) what's the penalty for this ?
p1) A course misplay is score +2, otherwise it's practice strokes for every throw on that last hole. Really bad for you with that 6 you took.
p4) let's just not put the score down and tell the TD that we misplayed an extra hole.



Except for that last imaginary quote from p4, you're pretty close. I don't think the players in question ever denied playing the hole, nor they did they withhold information from the TD, such as what they shot on the extra hole they played. Gary, your imaginary scenario above implies the players tried to hide something...that's simply not the case. They just simply played the rest of the holes, and came and told the TD what happened, as they should have. I also believe there were multiple groups that misplayed at least one shot in a similar fashion....it was not an isolated incident.

Chap

If I've followed the thread correctly, this question refers to a group that played a hole not on the course and missed a hole that was on the course. (as opposed to the case of playing all the holes on the course plus one extra that was not on the course.)



Incorrect.

The players played ALL of the holes they were supposed to play, plus one more that they weren't supposed to play.

Chap

Sorry, the last quote was added to show how the idea of a misplay could be misused. The quote also doesn't say that anything will be hidden from the TD, just states that the information wouldn't be written down on the card.

I just don't think the wrong tee or wrong target are the closest fits.
I don't see it as a misplay because all of the stipulated holes were completed in the correct order.
I don't believe that players should ever have real throws made during a round erased from their score (except where specifically allowed by the rules).

I would feel this way even if I was on the card that was penalized.

In the end, the TD made a decision.
I don't think the rule is clear enough on either side to say he made the wrong call.
It's just not the call I would have made.

IMO, a 2 stroke penalty was the correct call given the scenario. If I were there (and I almost was) that is what I would have lobbied for.

Oh, if the 2 stroke penalty rule was in place 12 years ago, I'd have an extra piece of hardware on my shelf. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
As it was, we took "practice strokes". ARGH! :mad:

See, this is alot of the problem...we lobby for rulings. Everyone on that card threw at least 3 extra shots that round, on a hole that wasn't to be played, and were only penalized 2 strokes. Yes, the TD made things confusing.

The group in front of mine is who we are talking about. As my group stood on that same tee pad about to make the same mistake, the group in front was running down telling me not to throw. We called the TD. He came out, moved these guys to the proper hole, and we waited for the back up to clear.

Now if I had thrown that first drive, would I have gotten the 2 stroke penalty? or just the one for the practice throw? I guess my lobbying powers would have been the determining factor... :rolleyes

Gary's point about "ignoring" extra throws doesn't seem fair to me either. And wrangler, you have a good point, but rule book clarifies with it's before or after "subsequent throw" scenario:

801.04
B. Specific Types of Misplay and Penalty Procedures for Each:
(1) Wrong Tee: Teeing off from the wrong teeing area. If the misplay is discovered after the player�s throw from the incorrect teeing area, but before a subsequent throw, the player shall re-tee from the correct teeing area and treat the initial throw as a practice throw (one throw added to the player�s score). If the misplay is discovered after a subsequent throw, the player shall proceed to complete the hole and receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

Here's one for you guys - hadn't seen a situation quite like it before. How would you make the call?

Set up to start the first round in mostly threesomes on the course (this was a C-Tier event). My group plays the first hole and moves to the next tee where we find the group in front of us as a twosome - wondering how to play because their third person went to the "wrong hole". We had them join our threesome so we played as the only fivesome on the course. We told the pair to keep score for the missing player and issue 7's as a matter of course. The missing player had hooked up with another threesome and played the round normally.
After the round we made the discovery that the missing player had gone to the correct hole (as was posted on the scoreboard), while the pair we played with went to the hole that was circled on their scorecard (but not as was posted on the scoreboard).
So who played incorrectly, and what penalty (if any) should be issued? Or is this situation just an anomaly, and an unfortunate mistake? As a matter of record, I believe no penalty strokes were issued to any of the three players.

The TD should be stroked... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

if the scorecard was marked one way and the cards on the board were posted differently my tendency would be no penalty- td error.

I have seen a similar thing happen where the staff was in a hurry to get the cards out and circled the wrong hole. Since all three players played as was either posted or noted on their card there should not be a penality for the group breaking up.


Here's one for you guys - hadn't seen a situation quite like it before. How would you make the call?

Set up to start the first round in mostly threesomes on the course (this was a C-Tier event). My group plays the first hole and moves to the next tee where we find the group in front of us as a twosome - wondering how to play because their third person went to the "wrong hole". We had them join our threesome so we played as the only fivesome on the course. We told the pair to keep score for the missing player and issue 7's as a matter of course. The missing player had hooked up with another threesome and played the round normally.
After the round we made the discovery that the missing player had gone to the correct hole (as was posted on the scoreboard), while the pair we played with went to the hole that was circled on their scorecard (but not as was posted on the scoreboard).
So who played incorrectly, and what penalty (if any) should be issued? Or is this situation just an anomaly, and an unfortunate mistake? As a matter of record, I believe no penalty strokes were issued to any of the three players.