I was just wondering what everyone considered a championship course. If you can shoot a 13-14 under would it still be considered one? Or every hole but 3 of them duecable? Yes you would have to have a great controlled shot or if you have a 325ft thunber, you would be golden and have no problem at all at shooting the -12 to -13. If you are a tourning pro going to big tourny's would you want to go to a duece or die course? What do you think.

OR would you want holes threw woods that you have to throw placement shots and lay up just to get a 3. From open 350ft to 100ft in woods. Of course there will be a few holes were you have to duce in order to have a great round. Would you want to hope to shoot a -2 to -4 to have the hot round for the day. What are your opinions. I would love to know!!!

If you were the designer of a course would you listen to tourning 1000 rated pro's and top Am 1's or listen to locals that never go out the the region to play tournys and want to make the course around their game.

IMO, a championship course should force you to have to throw a multitude of different throws well. There should be good risk/reward decisions on the majority of holes. There should be good variety.

Bottom line, a championship course should test a whole range of skills...rewarding the most skilled and punishing the less skilled.

Lisening to top level players is one thing. Watching what they can actually do is more important for designers to understand their capabilities. I've seen several designs where the inexperienced designer didn't realize that certain (cheater) routes were available to big arms.

A Championship course doesn't have to be long if the holes are the proper length for gold level players. However, if you're going to the effort of designing a gold level course, there should be at least four legit gold level par 4 holes, preferably more, including some par 5s if space available.

Any course with an SSA under 49 is not championship level any more for Open and at least a 53 SSA or more is preferred. That would mean an average round for Ken would be 5-6 down at 1040 rating or so (depending on how par is set) and a course record round of maybe 10 down at near 1080 or so. The SSA for the course layouts being played this weekend at the IDGC is about 59 on the "short" Steady Ed course and close to 68-70 on Houck's course.

What constitutes a "championship course", and whether a designer should build one, are quite different questions.

I'm a duffer, and like courses that push the limits of my skills, with a variety of interesting and exciting holes. I'd assume a championship course is the same---that for 1000+ rated players, it challenges the limits of their skills with a variety of interesting and exciting holes. It seems to me that this could range from a lot of deuceable holes---if the deuce took extreme skill---to a par-72 design, if the holes are not just long, but challenging to that skill level. As a 900-rated player, I can only guess at exactly what holes meet this criteria.

As for who a course designer should listen to, surely it depends on who the course is being designed for.

I think for a course to be labeled a Championship type course, it must be worthy of a holding a "Championship type Tournament" exp: amenities,layout,groomed,lack of dumb holes, fun factor, exc..

However, there are plenty of Championship style tournaments held on less than Championship quality courses.
The word championship gets used way too often...like in this post for example.

I think a championship style course has an SSA and par near the same.

Withrop Gold and Renny Gold jump in my head, especially Renny Gold.

I once shot a 71 there (+1) and it was rated 997. And every shot on the course is fair.

A championship course is one which challenges you to execute a variety of shots, has good risk/reward, and shows a spread of scores on each hole. A championship course should have 9 holes that are NOT par 3's to reward course management. We have to start establishing that birdie does not=2! To expand a previous statement, I feel it is important for the player to feel like he may gain or lose a stroke on each hole. It is hard to keep that feeling on a course with 18 par 3's as you really never feel like you gain strokes; usually you just feel like you leave them with every 3. Lastly, quality concrete or other well-made tee boxes complete a championship course.

concrete or other well-made tee boxes complete a championship course.


You must be talking about Round Rock!! :D

Happy B-day Chris --- does RR have concrete boxes now?

****, it's been a long time since I was out there...

Happy B-day Chris --- does RR have concrete boxes now?

****, it's been a long time since I was out there...



affirmative on the concrete boxes... :D

thanks Rooster and yes concrete 4 x10 need to make it out for the may 5 WWF fund raiser..