This came up at a tournament recently. During the final 9, I was walking with the second card. While watching them tee off from one hole, the top card was throwing on the hole we had just finished. One of the drives on the previous hole landed on the OB side of a painted line, touching the line but not the IB side of the line. The card I was watching asked me to stay there to make sure the disc was ruled OB. I waited with rule book in hand and told the player that his shot was OB. He asked if anyone moved it, to which I responded no. He stated it should be in because it was touching the line. I stated that it is out as the line is out. He asked where it is in the rule book, and I turned to 803.09 A and read the rule. He wanted to get the TD, and then another official walked up and stated exactly as I had that the disc was out because the line is out. The player asked about the rule, and the other official stated that it's been that way since the rules update released Jan 2006. The player then took the OB penalty, but stated that his cards had been playing that lie (OB but touching the line) as in all weekend.

Is there anything that could have been done in this situation? I couldn't come up with a rule that could be used, much less a reasonable implementation. There's no way to know how many shots were incorrectly ruled in. This is also not a willful circumventing of the rules, as the players apparently didn't realize the new rule.

Yet another reason we should all read our rule books when new rules come out!

It would be even better if you folks knew the rules.

Wow just reread it.. I thought I was right. Sorry.

First of all:

801.04 A. It is the responsibility of the player to play the course correctly. Before play begins, players shall attend the players� meeting and ask about any special conditions that may exist on the course, including extra holes, alternate teeing areas, alternate hole placements, out-of-bounds areas, and mandatories.

So not knowing an area is OB is not an excuse. Knowing an area is OB, but not knowing the rules is also not an excuse.

801.04 D. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the pertinent hole or holes have been completed (holed out), the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

AND

801.04 E. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the player has turned in his or her scorecard, the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

The first one applies if the error is found after the hole is played and the second is after the round is over. As best I can tell this would take effect throughout the tournament as there does not appear to be a time constraint on E.

When & IF I have an OB line I declare the OUTSIDE edge of the line as the OB line......WHY have an OB line be 2 or 3" wide as is the case when "painted"?

This eliminates the issue as you described, because the OUTSIDE edge of the line is OB NOT the line itself.....

;)

Kinda like IF you dont want a 2 meter penalty...then DONT throw in the tree... :p

Hey Mike,

That's an interesting solution! However, there is always a line demarcating IB vs. OB. At your discretion as the TD, you declare the outside edge of the painted or chalked strip as "the line", while the strip itself is IB. As in math, your line has a length but no width (i.e. 1 dimension). But there is still a line. And the PDGA rule is that the line (in your case, the outside edge of the marked strip) is OB.

With the recent rule change, I know that the line itself (no matter what is used to make it--rope, ribbon, paint, edges etc.) is OB, so I need to determine whether a scintilla of my disc is IB. Pretty simple.

As a TD, if you declare the marking strip itself IB I think it may cause more confusion, since we KNOW that not everyone pays attention during the player's meeting, and then you'll get the attentive guys citing "what they heard" arguing with guys that have a rule book. Not good. :o:D

But I get where you're coming from. :cool:

Hope all is well up North!
Cheers,
Steve

Magilla, I agree with Lonhart that you are causingmore confusion with yout method. You are consciously choosing your OB plane in such a way as to negate the OB line rule change and to effectively play it under the old rules.

I really don't see any good coming from that, especially if you are painting lines and then declaring the line in-bounds. It makes the statement that you as a long-time and well-respected TD do not agree with the PDGA rules of play and you will go out of your way to make sure that certain new rules are not implemented. That sets a tone that players can easily pick up on.

You can always paint the line 2 inches farther out and use the rules as written.

First of all:

801.04 A. It is the responsibility of the player to play the course correctly. Before play begins, players shall attend the players� meeting and ask about any special conditions that may exist on the course, including extra holes, alternate teeing areas, alternate hole placements, out-of-bounds areas, and mandatories.

So not knowing an area is OB is not an excuse. Knowing an area is OB, but not knowing the rules is also not an excuse.

801.04 D. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the pertinent hole or holes have been completed (holed out), the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

AND

801.04 E. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the player has turned in his or her scorecard, the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

The first one applies if the error is found after the hole is played and the second is after the round is over. As best I can tell this would take effect throughout the tournament as there does not appear to be a time constraint on E.


The players all knew which areas were OB. Apparently they were not aware of the rule change to the line itself being OB. I agree, not knowing the rules is not an excuse.

I didn't think to look up "misplay" in the rules. Thanks for these two rules. I agree 801.04 E would be the proper rule to use in this situation, but then there is still the question of how to implement it. How can one determine exactly how many misplays a player had during a round? And how to determine which players were affected by a misplay? A sweeping 2-stroke penalty for all players on a card discovered to have misplayed a rule doesn't make sense, as most likely not all players on the card actually misplayed a lie and/or a single player may have more than one misplay. Who, especially on the top card in a final 9, is going to own up to a misplay (or worse x amount of misplays) anyway?

Again, the lie I witnessed was played correctly, but the player stated that during the three previous rounds such a lie would have been deemed in by his groups. At least that's my interpretation as the exact quote was "we've been playing that as in all weekend." There's no way of knowing how many instances of a misplay occured "all weekend," at least not that I can think of. So how would any of you TDs out there handle this situation?

I believe that since there is no time limit, the player could go to the specific players that played incorrectly and explain the rule to them. His next option would then be to go to the TD, assuming the player did not, and explain what happened. I would not say the whole card would have been penalized, only the player that misplayed the hole.

Best way to avoid these mistakes in the future is obviously if people would actually read the rules. But realistically, the TD should state at the players meeting the OB rule as those seem to always be the confusing rules that get most arguments.

Which tournament was that Marsha?

Steel City. Check your Pm

It would be even better if you folks knew the rules.





Wow just reread it.. I thought I was right. Sorry.



Thanks for further proving Marsha's point :D