Player is in the bushes, and needs to chip out to a limited space, e.g. just clear of the bushes, and short of an OB line. To aid him, he places something on the ground in his landing area to aim at.

Various possibilities:
1a. Aiming point is no closer to the basket, he throws his hat on the ground
1b. Aiming point is no closer to the basket, he pushes a stick into the ground

2a. Aiming point is towards the basket, he throws his hat on the ground
2b. Aiming point is towards the basket, he pushes a stick into the ground

For 1a and 2a, the player could fall foul of 803.07 A "Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur.", But only if he actually hits his hat, then he gets penalised on "C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc". 2 shots?
Would the same apply for the stick, if he hits it, 2 shots?

But on 2b, if he uses a stick from in front of his lie, does he fall foul of 803.05 B "Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole"? But he could use a stick from behind him?

I have had a similiar issue..I was on hole 7 at renny gold...After a bad first shot, I knew i needed to land in a certain place in order to get a clean shot to get up and down for par...I used my foot to stack some leaves high enough to see from my lie...this was a casual round of course....I saw a player do this once...It was Ken JArvis?...he had a long put that hid the basket from his view...he went to the crest of the hill and dropped his towel there...He went back and threw the disc up and over the towel, using it to guage his left and right...I thought it was an awesome move...he missed the putt, but it was a great golf move.

I've done this before, putting a spare mini on the hill crest.

I'd say that if I hit the mini I would have to issue the penalty on myself.

Spotting at Am World Doubles I saw someone move a branch lying on the ground to make a point to shoot across.. I made them move it back.

I've seen this several times at Renny Gold. The player that I saw use it would stick a stick in the ground giving him a spot to aim for, but also potentially stopping his disc at that spot. At the time, I didn't know the rules well enough to call him on it, but you shouldn't be moving anything between your lie and the hole. A good player should be able to focus on a spot and aim for that, making a judgment call that that spot is the correct spot, and that they can get there and then hope to get up and down.

I actually read a ball golf article recently about a player using another player's ball to line up the green for his shot. The player shooting was halfway down the fairway, while the second player was in the fairway just short of the green. By the rules, the player whose ball was being used for the line up is allowed to mark his spot and remove his ball so as not to aid the other player in their aim. I found that interesting that it would even come up and there would be a rule covering it.

As long as the stick used was not originally between the lie and the hole, you can move it and place it between your lie and the hole. The only thing the rules disallow is moving an obstacle that was between the lie and the hole. Of course, if you hit it, one could argue that it was a player's equipment and subject to the interference rule.

I dont know how much a mini would slow down a disc...i think this should be fine strategy...I like all these outside the box ideas....

In ball golf caddies are not allowed to stand on the green in a location that aids the player in lining up their putt, or use the flagstick as a pointer to mark a spot to putt towards.

I like that rule. Pick out a naturally-occuring spot to aim towards.

maybe we should limit the alignment device to one centimeter?


http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1383205#post1383205

at the risk of encouraging you further... that was funny

Every time I've done that it has always felt like cheating. On holes with a blind basket tucked in the edge of the schule that cannot be seen from the tee, I've walked up to see if it was clear and then dropped a towel in the fairway at the opening.

Why aim for an object you placed on the ground? Why not just aim at that spot of the ground?

...snip...

Dang, unclemercy...talk about necro-posting!

Why aim for an object you placed on the ground? Why not just aim at that spot of the ground?Sometimes that spot on the ground lacks a distinguishing feature from 300 feet away. Unless you leave one there!

I think this type of marking is cheating and should not be allowed. An argument could be made that it is covered by Artificial Devices. A mini is an artificial device used to aid in throwing if you use it to mark a spot on the ground to throw towards. Even a stick could be construed as an artificial device if you place it in a certain spot to where it did not fall naturally.

An artificial device used to aid in throwing covers devices that extend the levers of the body used in throwing, not aiming devices. The most likely rule against this action would be 801.03 (excessive time).

How about the rule about messing with casual objects in front of your lie? Are we allowed to put items in front of it, just not remove them unless it ended up there during the round?

Leaving an object on the fairway is littering. Even if only temporary.
So no littering please.

You CAN ask your caddie to stand out there. No rule against that yet.

Bob

Temporary placement of equipment on the ground is not littering unless it is left on the ground when the player leaves the area. Otherwise leaving your bag on the ground while you putt and retrieve your putter would be littering.

The rules do not address placing casual obstacles in front of your lie except to prohibit doing so when the obstacle is likely to interfere with the flight of the disc. Placing your bag ahead of your lie would be questionable, placing a towel on the ground (for a non roller shot) would not. The rules also give the player the authority to ask that equipment be moved, but does not require that the player ask for it to be moved.

If you can find something different I would like to hear it. I do not like the process and feel it is somewhat against the spirit of the game. However, most groups will have players that will help you align your shot from a blind area in the rough. In the spirit of fairness, you should be allowed to provide similar alignment if no one on your card will help. I thought this was addressed in a Q&A at one time, but I cannot find anything that applies.

An artificial device used to aid in throwing covers devices that extend the levers of the body used in throwing, not aiming devices. The most likely rule against this action would be 801.03 (excessive time).

That's only one part of the rule. If you actually read the opening statement of the rule, any artificial device that may assist in making a throw is prohibited. Exceptions are enumerated for abrasion protection, prevention of slipping on the tee pad, and measuring distances less than 10 meters with a tape measure. I see no exception in the rule for using an artificial device to aid in aiming.

Aiming is part of throwing and if you use an artificial device to aid your aim, then you are violating this rule.

The basket is an artificial device and we're allowed to use it as a means for lining up our throw. Is the intent of the rule to make sure blind holes are more challenging? If so, then we shouldn't use flag pole extensions on baskets so their location can be seen, right? Take away those painted dots you sometimes see on a tree indicating where the route doglegs into the woods.

I can see the reason for not allowing gizmos on your body to assist in throwing. But it doesn't seem right to prevent anything that allows you to aim when the basket isn't visible unless we also require players to wear a blindfold for throwing when the basket can be seen.

That's only one part of the rule. If you actually read the opening statement of the rule, any artificial device that may assist in making a throw is prohibited. Exceptions are enumerated for abrasion protection, prevention of slipping on the tee pad, and measuring distances less than 10 meters with a tape measure. I see no exception in the rule for using an artificial device to aid in aiming.

Aiming is part of throwing and if you use an artificial device to aid your aim, then you are violating this rule.

Better hand me that pair of glasses then... I can just see that during a round; "Are you wearing contacts? CHEAT!"

Better hand me that pair of glasses then... I can just see that during a round; "Are you wearing contacts? CHEAT!"


I have a prescription for my glasses which makes it a medical item and allowable by 802.04A.

Two rules are being violated. The most important is 803.01A. Play the course as you find it. You did not find it with a towel in the fairway.

Rule 802.04. You may not use any artificial device to aid in throwing. Why would you put a towel down, if not to aid your throw?

As Gary points out, there really doesn't seem to be specific wording preventing placing an item "already being carried by a player" like a towel for aiming or asking another person to stand on the line of play. The artificial device rule is specific to objects connected with the player near their lie either on their body (medical/abrasion) or touched by their body before the throw (rangefinders) or during the throw (pad on ground).

Moving something already on the course from any other location on the course to use for aiming would be against DDs highlighted rule of playing the course as it is. But if the player is carrying something that can be used, it appears it could be placed for aiming as long as it's picked up after the throw. After all, we put down mini markers and a case could be made that these are part of the aiming process.

Hi Gary,
I was making light of the topic with littering. I have sometimes described the sport as competitive littering. Least number of throws into the receptacle. :)

Visual aids are cool in my thinking. Not everyone has the advantage of knowing the course. Or good eyesight. Or a caddie.
It's just good sportsmanship to allow equalizers.

Bob

As Gary points out, there really doesn't seem to be specific wording preventing placing an item "already being carried by a player" like a towel for aiming or asking another person to stand on the line of play. The artificial device rule is specific to objects connected with the player near their lie either on their body (medical/abrasion) or touched by their body before the throw (rangefinders) or during the throw (pad on ground).

Moving something already on the course from any other location on the course to use for aiming would be against DDs highlighted rule of playing the course as it is. But if the player is carrying something that can be used, it appears it could be placed for aiming as long as it's picked up after the throw. After all, we put down mini markers and a case could be made that these are part of the aiming process.

No way Jose. Again, 803.01A. You must play the course as you find it. This is fundamental to golf. You may not put a towel, a net, a log, a postage stamp, a picture, paint, or any marking. I suppose this needs to be specifically addressed, but playing the course as you find it is fundamental.

Exactly. You can't change elements already on the course but you can use things you bring with you such as discs, markers, golf bag, towels, abrasion tape, medical devices, etc. There's no ban against those items or where they are placed. Right, Jose?

Exactly. You can't change elements already on the course but you can use things you bring with you such as discs, markers, golf bag, towels, abrasion tape, medical devices, etc. There's no ban against those items or where they are placed. Right, Jose?

Wrong again. The use is not prohibited. The placement on the course such that it changes how you "find the course" is. You may not add, subtract, or alter anything on the course except in your stance as allowed.

Dave, you're reading things into the rules that aren't there. State the exact rule that prevents you from placing your bag on the ground, place and sit on your portable seat, pull your cart over the terrain, ride your bike from hole to hole or have a player move in position to show your line. There is no rule preventing that. You can even adjust the chains on the basket if desired. All of those temporal (word o' the day) actions are allowed because they don't materially change the course and items/people are presumed to be taken or move with the player and are not left there. The only factor to consider is that some would need to be done within the 30 seconds allotted to the player for their throw.

As an aside, when a player loses a disc, should they also get a courtesy warning for littering?

Dave, you're reading things into the rules that aren't there. State the exact rule that prevents you from placing your bag on the ground, place and sit on your portable seat, pull your cart over the terrain, ride your bike from hole to hole or have a player move in position to show your line. There is no rule preventing that. You can even adjust the chains on the basket if desired. All of those temporal (word o' the day) actions are allowed because they don't materially change the course and items/people are presumed to be taken or move with the player and are not left there. The only factor to consider is that some would need to be done within the 30 seconds allotted to the player for their throw.

As an aside, when a player loses a disc, should they also get a courtesy warning for littering?

I am not reading anything into the rules. You may do all the things you said, except for what I have been talking about, and you have not addressed, and that is the area in front of your lie. Most specifically, as I already stated, you can't put a marker towel down ahead of your lie. That is not playing the course as you find it. 803.01A was specifically written so that you can't change, improve, decorate, or "anything" the course, as you find it. You may not lay a towel down ahead of your lie. You may not park your cart in the fairway ahead of your lie. You may not put your bike ahead of your lie. I think you need to talk to Harold. Apparently I am not making myself clear or you don't understand what playing the course as you find it means. This is fundamental to golf.

Maybe that was the intent but the rules say nothing about items you carry with you being placed in front of versus behind your lie. Only objects not carried with you are discussed such as obstacles on the course when being moved or not depending on if they were there before or after the round started. In fact, since you have the option to move objects that became a factor during the round, it indirectly implies you can temporarily put items anywhere on the course while you're playing the hole.

If the original intent was to prevent doing those things, then it needs to be written. But it's not there as it is. As Carlton regularly noted, if the rules (local laws) don't say you can't do it, it's probably OK to do.

Adopting some of the ball golf rule wording along these lines might be helpful. USGA rules (8-2) state anyone can indicate the line of play when off the green and even the caddie can indicate the line on the green. However, they can't remain in position or place a mark on the ground. The player has to remember it once indicated. That could be perfectly fine for disc golf if it eventually got written in the rules. That would allow other players to rattle the chains or stand on the line for blind shots then move aside for the throw.

I would have to agree with gnduke about 801.03 which states:

A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:

1) The previous player has thrown; and,
2)The player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie


Running down field to place a towel or a mini is not taking reasonable time to arrive at yourdisc unless you're VERY fast.

Maybe that was the intent but the rules say nothing about items you carry with you being placed in front of versus behind your lie. Only objects not carried with you are discussed such as obstacles on the course when being moved or not depending on if they were there before or after the round started. In fact, since you have the option to move objects that became a factor during the round, it indirectly implies you can temporarily put items anywhere on the course while you're playing the hole.

If the original intent was to prevent doing those things, then it needs to be written. But it's not there as it is. As Carlton regularly noted, if the rules (local laws) don't say you can't do it, it's probably OK to do.

Adopting some of the ball golf rule wording along these lines might be helpful. USGA rules (8-2) state anyone can indicate the line of play when off the green and even the caddie can indicate the line on the green. However, they can't remain in position or place a mark on the ground. The player has to remember it once indicated. That could be perfectly fine for disc golf if it eventually got written in the rules. That would allow other players to rattle the chains or stand on the line for blind shots then move aside for the throw.

It has been written, (803.01A) but apparently it needs its own section in the Q&A. Nonetheless, I really have a hard time believing you don't understand "playing the course as it you find it". That is so fundamental to the game. If I understand you correctly, I can bring a net with me to place behind the target any time I want, so I can go for putts and have the net catch me if I miss. Apparently, according to you, as the rules don't specifically state that I can't do that, I can. According to me, rule 803.01A says I can't. There is no other rational position to take. I should not have to explain this to anyone, let alone someone as intelligent as you. You can't change the course to suit yourself.

Actually it has been discussed on here before regarding a caddie being able to throw up a net behind the pin and that was not refuted as illegal. It's a big loophole in the rules as it's written right now. I understand your words and what you think the intent is. But as an official, I'd be hard pressed to call Bruce on his towel gambit if he picked it up after using it to mark the line.

I doubt you've never had someone point out a line to a blind hole or rattle the chains in sanctioned play. Even simply walking back to your lie like Bruce mentioned thru high grass is allowed which could not only provide the line but knock down some high grass in front of your lie.

Actually it has been discussed on here before regarding a caddie being able to throw up a net behind the pin and that was not refuted as illegal. It's a big loophole in the rules as it's written right now. I understand your words and what you think the intent is. But as an official, I'd be hard pressed to call Bruce on his towel gambit if he picked it up after using it to mark the line.

I doubt you've never had someone point out a line to a blind hole or rattle the chains in sanctioned play. Even simply walking back to your lie like Bruce mentioned thru high grass is allowed which could not only provide the line but knock down some high grass in front of your lie.

As an aside, Bruce's towel gambit is not legal for two reasons. The second is that it is an artificial aid to throwing. If it were not, he wouldn't be doing it.

Rattling the chains is not altering the course. A spotter pointing out the way is not an artificial device.

I think you are looking at this backward and still don't quite get the enormous importance of playing the course as you find it. Maybe there should be an extra phrase that states.....unless otherwise specifically stated. That would include stuff that got changed that you are changing back. Stuff like twisted chains.

The point here is that you can't do anything to the course unless the rules specifically allow it. You think that you can do anything the rules don't specifically prohibit. That is very very wrong. That seriously is the kind of thinking that goes on in the mind of a sociopath or child. You are neither and should never take that position with fundamentals. Your position, especially as an official, should be to always do what is within the spirit of the game; absolutely not what "appears to you", to be the letter of the law. You should not be backing loopholes, you should be using judgement to uphold the spirit of the game.

When something is inherently and fundamentally wrong, all the ways of being wrong should not have to be spelled out. I understand other areas like courtesy, the use of alcohol, dress code, etc are not fundamental, but are social agreements. These need to be spelled out.

While I agree with all that you are saying (except calling a long-time member of the RC a sociopath), I thought as you did until this thread came out and I opened the book to quickly refute the practice. The RC has drilled it into my head on many occasions that what is not prohibited by the rules is allowed. Not my words, not my sentiment.

I could find no rule that clearly addressed this issue. I then had to think about when a player would bother to do this, and the only instances I could think of were when a player had the misfortune to be on a card where no one would hep them out by giving them a line on the basket. I have never been on a card where this was the case, so feel that it must be a rare problem. Fair play is in the spirit of the game this levels the field.

Unless the RC puts out an official statement otherwise, I do not see it as materially altering the course.

I think you're missing the distinction between the course elements as designed that are there before the round starts versus all of the items that players bring with them and are allowed to use. The existing elements should not be moved. 100% agreement. But I don't believe the rules automatically extend to items brought with the players because they already temporarily or permanently have altered the course for a long time as part of play.

Many things can be done with the items a player brings with them except where specifically restricted in the rules such as marking the lie and use of artificial devices. Otherwise, we can walk on the ground including rub in a spot for our plant foot, put our bags and stools where we want if they don't interfere, throw discs that are lost with no additional penalty for littering besides the lost disc penalty.

The rules are simply silent on doing certain things with the items we bring with us except where noted. If we want to allow or disallow doing more things with those items, then it needs to be addressed like ball golf has done - in writing.

(long time former member of the RC)

And if we disallow using items to mark a line out of the shule, we need to also disallow using another player or caddy to mark or point out a line out of the shule. If one player has to play blind, all players should have to play blind.

The basket is an artificial device and we're allowed to use it as a means for lining up our throw. Is the intent of the rule to make sure blind holes are more challenging? If so, then we shouldn't use flag pole extensions on baskets so their location can be seen, right? Take away those painted dots you sometimes see on a tree indicating where the route doglegs into the woods.


I sure hope this was tongue-firmly-in-cheek, Chuck. Check??

No tongue. Just follows if we aren't going to allow options for aiming. Why should it make a difference if the aiming reference like a dot or tall tree is permanent versus temporary like a towel or person? Why does one player or situation get an aiming reference and the other not? Ball golf allows help for aiming before the shot. I would guess they also have fewer blind lies than DG and that tall flag is there to make it easier to see from most lies.

My first thought when reading this thread, and especially with what Dave said, was what Gary said. It has been drilled into me as well that what is not prohibited by the Rules is permissible.

re: 803.01A. It does says to play the course as they find it unless allowed otherwise by the Rules (like to move obstacles that occurred during play, such as a branch may have fallen on a basket), but a literal interpretation of that would mean that a player would NEVER be able to walk past their lie until after they throw, since the course, which in this case would be the area between the lie and the basket, would have been changed, however imperceptably, by the player's walking on that area.

As long as placing that towel does not materially alter the area under it, and does not directly aid the disc (for example, the towel helped smooth an area that the disc might roll over), I would be hard pressed to cite 803.01A being violated.

I got a "Oh, C'mon, Bill" from a former World Champion (not necessarily Open), when I made a comment that he putted out his drop in before I putted out my almost drop in ( I was out, of course), so I would expect a similar response from someone if I mentioned to them that they should not put their towel on the ground to aid them in lining up their throw.

But, Dave, I respect your position, and I think that you are literally correct, and if you want to take it to the RC, I understand completely, but when I cannot get a second when I call a foot fault on a tee, not because the others in the group thought that there was no violation, but because they were not watching, well, I just think that we have bigger fish to fry.

And, as far as the towel being an artificial aid (802.04) I agree with Chuck that it is not is an artificial aid to the throw, since it does not assist in the actual mechanics of the throw, and does not indicate distance. It does assist in the direction of the throw, which the target itself does, and Chuck stated.

While I agree with all that you are saying (except calling a long-time member of the RC a sociopath), I thought as you did until this thread came out and I opened the book to quickly refute the practice. The RC has drilled it into my head on many occasions that what is not prohibited by the rules is allowed. Not my words, not my sentiment.

I could find no rule that clearly addressed this issue. I then had to think about when a player would bother to do this, and the only instances I could think of were when a player had the misfortune to be on a card where no one would hep them out by giving them a line on the basket. I have never been on a card where this was the case, so feel that it must be a rare problem. Fair play is in the spirit of the game this levels the field.

Unless the RC puts out an official statement otherwise, I do not see it as materially altering the course.

This may go to the heart of the problem here, but, for the record please reread my comments about sociopathic behavior. I immediately stated Chuck was neither. Please do not state that I called him a sociopath. I did not and would not.

And if we disallow using items to mark a line out of the shule, we need to also disallow using another player or caddy to mark or point out a line out of the shule. If one player has to play blind, all players should have to play blind.

Two different issues. Any item used or anything seen would be a different hole. A spotter who is safely out of view is not a different hole. That is the fundamental issue that no one seems to understand.

I do understand your issue of fairness, and I agree that it should be taken into account for any allowances.

I don't know where you guys get this "materially altering the course" language, but it is poop. Who gets to judge what is "material", and what is not? I absolutely think a towel on the fairway materially alters the course.

While I don't have any objection to being able to use a spotter or even a towel in a place that absolutely couldn't be hit by a thrown disc, it needs to be specifically allowed and defined. It should not be assumed because someone deems it to be unmaterial.

For the record, I would allow laser markers, range finders, spotters as long as they were specifically allowed and not assumed.

No tongue. Just follows if we aren't going to allow options for aiming. Why should it make a difference if the aiming reference like a dot or tall tree is permanent versus temporary like a towel or person? Why does one player or situation get an aiming reference and the other not? Ball golf allows help for aiming before the shot. I would guess they also have fewer blind lies than DG and that tall flag is there to make it easier to see from most lies.

Temporary, unless it is identically temporary is different for different players. Permanent is the same for everyone.

As an aside, I dislike blind holes. They are not safe, require spotters, and engender things like putting stuff in the playing area that doesn't belong. I personally think it is poor course design. That aside; if someone absolutely can't live without this design, maybe a permanent marker should be provided such that players are not tempted to leave their own.

For the record players may not use any artificial device which "assists" in determining distances. It does not say "determines" or "measures". It merely says "assists". If that towel in the fairway in not assisting determining the distance to the blind alley, what is it for?

I don't want you guys to hear me as angry or anything. I'm not and I believe you guys are great and I respect you and your efforts toward the rules and the sport.

I believe Carlton, (who is a friend of mine) was dead wrong with his take on the rules saying if it wasn't specifically prohibited, it was okay. Carlton is not wrong too often, but he blew it here. Spirit of the game trumps everything.

Altering the course in any way, that is not specifically allowed is fundamentally wrong. Adding the word materially doesn't make it right.

While I agree with all that you are saying (except calling a long-time member of the RC a sociopath), I thought as you did until this thread came out and I opened the book to quickly refute the practice. The RC has drilled it into my head on many occasions that what is not prohibited by the rules is allowed. Not my words, not my sentiment.

I could find no rule that clearly addressed this issue. I then had to think about when a player would bother to do this, and the only instances I could think of were when a player had the misfortune to be on a card where no one would hep them out by giving them a line on the basket. I have never been on a card where this was the case, so feel that it must be a rare problem. Fair play is in the spirit of the game this levels the field.

Unless the RC puts out an official statement otherwise, I do not see it as materially altering the course.


Okay, my bad. I thought you were referring to Chuck. Apparently you were referring to Carlton by implication. I do not think Carlton is a sociopath. I don't like sociopaths. I do like Carlton, but his reasoning was like a sociopath. I sorry if I gave the impression that I thought Carlton was a sociopath.

There can be many places where a player can land where the line of sight to the basket is blind even if the hole is well designed and not blind from the tee or preferred landing area. Several spots on holes 4, 8, 11 & 18 at USDGC for example.

Dave,

I sensed no anger in your posts, just a spirited discussion of this situation, which I think that we all enjoy. And I am enjoying see you posting in a rules thread, given your background and experience in the sport, oh sub-1000 member.

That being said, let me get back to your interpretation of 803.01A, and more specifically, what you previously said, "Altering the course in any way, that is not specifically allowed is fundamentally wrong." You said, correctly, that the rules do not mention the word "materially" when addressing playing the course as it exists, so, I am inferring, perhaps correctly, that since you said that, and since you said "any way", that immaterial alterations should be in violation of 803.01A. And as I said before, any progress of the player between the lie and the target always results in some sort of immaterial alteration of the course, be it blades of grass bent in a different direction, or a slight change of wind currents due to the player's movement. I sure that we have seen a player readjust the chains on a target before putting, placing the chains in the "correct" position, by that, the position that they are normally in, or were designed to be in. But, according to the rules, he should not do that, for we do not know that the chains were not in that position at the start of the event.

If you are stating that those are a violation of 803.01A, I understand completely, because that would seem to be consistent with what you have stated. But if you believe that those are not a violation of 803.01A, but laying a towel flat on the ground ahead, and seeing the player's subsequent throw not touch the towel, is a violation, then you are defining a very fine threshold of what alters the course.

Again, it is not my intent to belittle your position, I am just trying to see if my interpretation of what you have written is the same as what you are trying to express, or if I am misinterpreting your words, which I have been known wont to do.

Also, I am glad to read that Tim is doing better, and I assume that he won't be in KC, so I am sorry I will not see him there. And I was looking forward to competing against you, but, just like I have improved with age to be able to play in another division for the first time, it appears that you have as well. You have the be one of the favorites for the SGM title.

And, as far as the towel being an artificial aid (802.04) I agree with Chuck that it is not is an artificial aid to the throw, since it does not assist in the actual mechanics of the throw, and does not indicate distance. It does assist in the direction of the throw, which the target itself does, and Chuck stated.

Once again, read the rule and you will see NO requirement that the artificial object be an aid to the mechanics of the throw. It very simply says "aid to throwing" which is very broad. Granted, the rule does go on to clarify that included in this rule is the specific prohibition that you can not use devices that lengthen your throwing levers, but that does not negate the broad nature of the opening statement in the rule.

If the device aids in making your throw and is not something enumerated in the exceptions, namely, abrasion control, prevention of slipping on the tee pad, or measuring distances less than 10 meters, then placing a mark on your line of throwing is an artificial device used to aid your throw and is not allowed.

And Chuck, the basket is the target of our game. It is not defined as an artificial device. I suppose shoes are artificial devices technically, but common sense would seem to dictate that here they are footwear, not artificial devices.

And if we disallow using items to mark a line out of the shule, we need to also disallow using another player or caddy to mark or point out a line out of the shule. If one player has to play blind, all players should have to play blind.

I agree and feel that this is in the spirit of the game.

Here is something a good friend shared with me:

Something small that is in the fairway can materially affect a shot. A twig or a pebble or a towel may not materially alter the course when taken as a whole, but these small items can significantly impact a throw. That is why there is no materiality threshold in play the course as you find it.

I believe they are fundamentally misinterpreting the phrase play it as you find it. They are reading this is as
"not altering the course." By the traditional standard of altering the course, e.g. moving or breaking a pre-existing obstacle, they would be correct. The rule, however, does not say do not alter the course. It says play it as you find it. Of course there are common actions that technically break this rule, e.g. walking up the fairway in the high grass and breaking some, but this is incidental and non-intentional. The towel on the other hand, is an intentional addition to the course.

There is also the false notion that failing to do a prescribed action is different than doing something that is prohibited. They are both the same. Both are breaking the rules. The rule indicates that the player should play the course as he finds it. By adding a towel, he has failed to play the course as he found it. He has broken the rule. 803.01A.

Again, if this is not clear enough, there is 803.01F - The Fairness Rule - which indicates that any point in dispute should be resolved by a logical extension of the closest existing rule. As stated above, 803.01A "Playing the course as you found it" appears to preclude the placement of a towel. 802.04 A also appears to preclude the use of the towel where it says: "A player shall not use any artificial device that may assist in making a throw." 803.07 A also indirectly precludes the use of a towel when it says: Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur. To varying degrees, each of these can be logically extended to prohibit the use of a towel to mark the line. In contrast, no rule can be logically extended to allow the use of a towel in this fashion. The Fairness Rule in my opinion would therefore preclude the use of the towel for marking the line.

For emphasis: I believe this hits the nail out of the ballpark - so to speak.



Again, if this is not clear enough, there is 803.01F - The Fairness Rule - which indicates that any point in dispute should be resolved by a logical extension of the closest existing rule. As stated above, 803.01A "Playing the course as you found it" appears to preclude the placement of a towel. 802.04 A also appears to preclude the use of the towel where it says: "A player shall not use any artificial device that may assist in making a throw." 803.07 A also indirectly precludes the use of a towel when it says: Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur. To varying degrees, each of these can be logically extended to prohibit the use of a towel to mark the line. In contrast, no rule can be logically extended to allow the use of a towel in this fashion. The Fairness Rule in my opinion would therefore preclude the use of the towel for marking the line.

OK, if you want to go the Fairness route, why is it that some players get to see the pin or route to it and others don't? Ball golf recognizes this fairness issue and specifically allows the line of play to be identified by others but doesn't allow a mark or towel to be left to continue to provide the line. Since we don't have this progressive rule in writing, players who may use a towel to mark the line are just leveling the playing field when there's no written rule against it, and could cite the Fairness rule as additional justification. It would seem fair play for seeing the line would trump the minor and temporary modification of the course with a towel if fairness is being called into question.

Just asking that our rules clarify this issue. It's apparent that experienced rules people disagree on the current interpretaion. How would we expect our less experienced players to be able to determine what is correct with the way things are currently worded?

OK, if you want to go the Fairness route, why is it that some players get to see the pin or route to it and others don't? Ball golf recognizes this fairness issue and specifically allows the line of play to be identified by others but doesn't allow a mark or towel to be left to continue to provide the line. Since we don't have this progressive rule in writing, players who may use a towel to mark the line are just leveling the playing field when there's no written rule against it, and could cite the Fairness rule as additional justification. It would seem fair play for seeing the line would trump the minor and temporary modification of the course with a towel if fairness is being called into question.

Just asking that our rules clarify this issue. It's apparent that experienced rules people disagree on the current interpretaion. How would we expect our less experienced players to be able to determine what is correct with the way things are currently worded?

Good points Chuck, although I think the answer to the first question is obvious. I can't think of any course where a route to the target can be seen from every possible landing spot on the course. Part of the test of skills of this game is placing the disc in locations that are conducive to holing out and I would think that includes being able to see the pin and a route to it from your lie. If you have a lie from which you can't see the pin or a route to it, then that's a bad shot and you have been appropriately rewarded.

I agree that clarification would help and would suggest adding "artificial device" to the definitions section and word it to include items used to aid in aiming and throwing. There could be an exception written for using humans in this manner if we want to emulate the ball golf rule.

Embodied in the principle of fair play is allowing the player to make their best effort to do well. Ball golf confirms this with their allowance for others to show the line. Just saying we should embrace that same concept but do it more clearly in writing.

I agree with DD that allowing rangefinders seems like it is in line with that principle. While it's surprising ball golf doesn't allow them, from a practical standpoint, the caddies have every hole mapped out and know the distance from key points anyway.

The argument against rangefinders in our RC had more to do with cost and speed of play ("Hey Dude, can I borrow your rangers") than fairness. But with sponsored players and some discs being more expensive than others, I think the cost factor doesn't make sense. We decide to buy what we need to be competitive. Having a rangefinder provides only marginal improvement that's meaningful only at the highest levels where they can decide to invest in that technology.

So if a towel is considered an artificial device here is a related question.

If I reach down and tear off a chunk of grass on a windy day and toss it in the air to determine wind direction should I.....

a - be penalized for using an artificial device (802.04 Artificial Devices)
b - be DQed for intentional destruction of the course (803.05F Obstacles and Relief)
c - both

No Dave, I neither thought you were upset or considered anyone here to be a sociopath. I always thought a sociopath would not care whether a thing was allowed, but proceed in the manner that best served their purpose. Everyone here was trying to determine whether things were disallowed by the rules or not.

If we are to reverse the current mindset on how the rules are to be applied, there are many recent rulings and interpretations that need to be looked over. I would prefer that the rules be more strictly interpreted, but there are a lot of things commonly done that are not explicitly allowed.

So if a towel is considered an artificial device here is a related question.

If I reach down and tear off a chunk of grass on a windy day and toss it in the air to determine wind direction should I.....

a - be penalized for using an artificial device (802.04 Artificial Devices)
b - be DQed for intentional destruction of the course (803.05F Obstacles and Relief)
c - both

1 - Penalized for littering if the grass was dead, not attached, and not between the lie and the hole.
2 - Penalized for moving casual obstacles between the lie and the hole if the grass was dead, not attached, and between the lie and the hole.
DQ'd for intentionally damaging the course if the grass is living and attached.

I used to call my friends on the grass thing for a laugh. :)

I agree we need to revisit some of the rulings

But I believe the Message board members worked well at reversing the "No towel behind mini" issue.

I know the rules committee has final say, but if working an interpretation to it's understood meaning is desired. They don't have to look far.

Bob

i see everyone talking about setting items down to help aim but didnt see any mention of what i've done... go out in the fairway and use my shoe to scuff a dirt spot or box that I want to land in/near (thinking for pitch out shots when I get in the shule). would that change some people's opinions since you aren't leaving anything laying around that could be hit or changing the course?

really interesting topic though

You are actually changing the existing course in front of your lie which is breaking a rule versus temporarily leaving a towel.

What's the difference between leaving your towel on the ground to mark the spot to aim for vs asking your caddy to stand at the same location (presumable with your towel) and spot for you?

You are actually changing the existing course in front of your lie which is breaking a rule versus temporarily leaving a towel.

seriously?... i'm not talking about digging a rut with your heel... literally scuffing the dirt about as much as you would if you dragged your feet when you walked.

if you are serious about 'changing the existing course' then I guess i'll bring a broom to sweep away foot prints behind me when I walk :P

The difference has to do with changing the existing course intentionally versus modifications that occur as a result of play such as walking, standing on high grass to run-up and play your lie, bending a limb during your follow-thru, breaking a branch with your disc as it flies thru a tree, your disc moving twigs and stones on the ground as it slides to a stop, etc.

What's the difference between leaving your towel on the ground to mark the spot to aim for vs asking your caddy to stand at the same location (presumable with your towel) and spot for you?

The towel can't get out of the way and could alter your shot for the better or worse. I believe leaving things in front of your shot is allowed but at a chance to cost a stroke. If you hit your object then you should be stroked for it. In ball golf you do not see this type of action except for the caddy holding the flag. In disc golf the desired only thing not natural between you and the basket should be other players mini's if they already marked there disc. Hitting the mini's does not cost a stroke but other player placed objects during a round to the player that placed the item. If your friend or caddy placed the item then the player shall take responsibility for their actions and be stroked if hitting the object. In my own play I choose not to risk it and keep the game as simple as I can.

Player is in the bushes, and needs to chip out to a limited space, e.g. just clear of the bushes, and short of an OB line. To aid him, he places something on the ground in his landing area to aim at.

Various possibilities:
1a. Aiming point is no closer to the basket, he throws his hat on the ground
1b. Aiming point is no closer to the basket, he pushes a stick into the ground

2a. Aiming point is towards the basket, he throws his hat on the ground
2b. Aiming point is towards the basket, he pushes a stick into the ground

For 1a and 2a, the player could fall foul of 803.07 A "Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur.", But only if he actually hits his hat, then he gets penalised on "C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc". 2 shots?
Would the same apply for the stick, if he hits it, 2 shots?

But on 2b, if he uses a stick from in front of his lie, does he fall foul of 803.05 B "Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole"? But he could use a stick from behind him?

NO to 1a & 2a.

803.07 A Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur.

My interpretation is that leaving the hat there is forbidden. I would not do it myself and would stop another player from doing it before he throws. It does not matter whether the throw would actually hit the hat or not; a player shall not leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur. Just the chance alone that the disc could hit the hat is enough.

NO to 2b.

803.05 B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A player may not move, alter, bend, break, or hold back any part of any obstacle, including casual obstacles, between the lie and the hole.

By placing a stick in the ground between his lie and the hole, he is clearly moving a casual obstacle between his lie and the hole.

I am torn however on 1b, where the obstacle is not between the lie and the the hole. While there is seemingly no rule against it, I am bothered by the potential of a disc hitting an object that was placed there by the thrower. What if this was on a hillside, and the chipout hits the stick and causes the disc to stand up and roll all the way down to underneath the polehole? What if it rolls OB?

Intuitively, I don't think this should be allowed.

I agree that leaving equipment ahead of the lie presents the opportunity to be penalized if the object affects the flight (or roll) path of the disc, but the rules only give the thrower the power to require other players to move their equipment. If you are not the thrower, the rules do not give you the authority to require another player to move their equipment.

I would stress another portion of the rule: a player shall not leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur.

I've dropped a towel many times to give myself a line on those blind approaches.
In fact, I'm pretty sure it was used on this hole (http://conchovalleydiscgolf.org/e107_plugins/autogallery/Gallery/Texas%20State%20Championships%20%2709/DSCF3151.JPG) at Texas States. It's hard enough to approach a basket on the side of a hill, but approaching from the opposite side of the hill without a clear direction to the basket is really difficult.

We're not talking about hanging towels from trees, or laying them in the path of a roller. If you're throwing your disc in the air, and your towel/marker is on the ground; interference will not easily occur.

Jeff - I would opine that if a player takes a stick that is not between the lie and the hole and places it as a mark to aid in throwing, the stick becomes an artificial device under 802.04, because the stick was artificially placed there. This could also be considered altering the course, even if momentarily/temporarily.

gnduke - Technically, the rules don't give the authority to require anything; you can always opt out. That being said, they do give the authority to make requests and assess penalties. You can always request that a player move the equipment they just placed in front of their lie, to aid in throwing, in lieu of being assessed a penalty under 802.04. Nonetheless, I agree that it would be out-of-place for someone who is not the away player to ask someone to move equipment prior to a throw.

I would stress another portion of the rule:

I've dropped a towel many times to give myself a line on those blind approaches.
In fact, I'm pretty sure it was used on this hole (http://conchovalleydiscgolf.org/e107_plugins/autogallery/Gallery/Texas%20State%20Championships%20%2709/DSCF3151.JPG) at Texas States. It's hard enough to approach a basket on the side of a hill, but approaching from the opposite side of the hill without a clear direction to the basket is really difficult.

We're not talking about hanging towels from trees, or laying them in the path of a roller. If you're throwing your disc in the air, and your towel/marker is on the ground; interference will not easily occur.

I am dismayed that we now have to argue the interpretation of easily in this rule. I know the original example deals with a pitchout to where the disc might land on the hat. But it would be totally bogus if in a tournament someone tried to argue that a hat placed 10' in front of the teepad does not violate the rule because it's highly unlikely that their normal 300' drive is going to end up hitting the hat. Griplocks happen. Worm-burners happen. Tree hits which turn into re-directions and rollers happen. Other stranger things have happened. Bottom line is that players shall not leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could occur, easily or not.

Thank you for posting a link to a picture of Wilmont#14 which just proves my earlier point perfectly. You place your towel to give yourself a line of sight, but let's say you end up throwing low by accident; you hit the the towel and it directs your disc up on edge at which point it rolls all the way down the hill and to the OB wetlands. Alternatively, your low shot (which might have skipped up underneath the polehole) is now stopped short and leaves you a kneeknocking downhill 25 footer which if missed will surely roll to the bottom of the hill. Both examples show explicitly why players shall not leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could occur.

gnduke - Technically, the rules don't give the authority to require anything; ...

Actually the rules do allow the away player to require it.


803.07 Interference

A. A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes to rest. A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. Alternatively, for intentional interference only, the thrower has the option of taking a re-throw. Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur. The away player may require other players to mark their lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could interfere with his or her throw.

Forcing a noncooperative player to obey the rules is another matter.