mbohn
Mar 30 2007, 05:59 PM
Do you know of playes using illegal disc during tournament play?

gnduke
Mar 30 2007, 06:04 PM
I do not know of any players that knowingly throw overweight discs.

Every one that I know has found their to be overweight have placed those overweight discs aside.

From the results of independent testing I have heard, I have little doubt that there are players of all skill levels that are throwing overweight plastic without their knowledge.

mbohn
Mar 30 2007, 06:12 PM
Me either... I have heard that you can sometimes get discs that do not match the weight label on the disc. I suspose it is possible to have discs that are illegal and not even know it....

wander
Mar 31 2007, 11:46 AM
Bowling has ball standards which they address via a check-in testing process at bigger events. (It's been years for me, though, so I can't say what the current practice is...some of the challenges of yesteryear in bowling are gone due to polyurethane. It's perhaps no longer necessary to check for ball hardness to keep illegal ones out. Weight and blocking are still important though, I guess)

For disc golf, if one is serious about this, a player could be required to subject their discs to testing prior to play. Lots of hassle, though. The cure might be more problematic than the illness. Might keep off-weights out of the tournament but not off the market. Any insistence on getting them off the shelves totally would burden manufacturers who in turn would pass that onto buyers.

Joe

ck34
Mar 31 2007, 12:30 PM
Rule 802.01E allows any player to question the legality of any disc which would require the TD to make a ruling. If overweight was the issue, I'm not sure we want the TDs to be required to referee this issue. I'm really not sure what I would do as a TD if faced with a request to confirm weight. It's not like I can check it later since it may involve payouts either with a 2-shot penalty or even DQ. I suspect a more likely case where the legality of a disc is brought in question is a disc with a hole in it or possibly someone using a proto of a disc yet to be approved.

jmo
Apr 05 2007, 09:11 PM
I nce had a Z-Crush marked 173. I wieghed it on a scale and it was in the mid 180's. When I asked around about this I was to understand that it doesn't really matter as long as the wieght on it from the manufacturer was what it really came down to. I also know someone who has, and throws, a CE Firebird that wieghs out to 183 marked 175 from innova

specialk
Apr 05 2007, 11:30 PM
Is this like a May Pole only using heavy discs instead of ribbons?

tommyb
Apr 06 2007, 03:54 AM
A few weeks ago me and a buddy of mine weighed out the discs in our bag with an electronic scale out of curiosity. We checked the electronic scale with a nickel before and after we weighed our discs and both times the nickel weighed out to five grams exactly as it should. The weights we found with our discs were shocking. Innova star plastic seemed to be the biggest culprit of being overweight. Every single star plastic disc that we weighed was at least one gram overweight, if not three or four. I came to find out that I have been throwing a 177 gram teerex and a 178 gram firebird. In fact almost every disc in my bag except the old discs that I bought on E-bay that were weighed and marked by the seller were at least a gram heavier than marked. I think that this is BS on the manufacturer�s part. When you buy a disc you should not have to bring a scale with you to the store to make sure that it is legal even though the manufacturer marked it as legal weight. What�s the deal with this? After weighing my discs I have a feeling that there is just someone in the factory merely weighing the discs by hand. The major disc manufacturers owe it to there customers to give them accurate weights not just for legality but also for consistency when buying discs

DSproAVIAR
Apr 06 2007, 11:21 AM
A few weeks ago me and a buddy of mine weighed out the discs in our bag with an electronic scale out of curiosity. We checked the electronic scale with a nickel before and after we weighed our discs and both times the nickel weighed out to five grams exactly as it should. The weights we found with our discs were shocking. Innova star plastic seemed to be the biggest culprit of being overweight. Every single star plastic disc that we weighed was at least one gram overweight, if not three or four. I came to find out that I have been throwing a 177 gram teerex and a 178 gram firebird. In fact almost every disc in my bag except the old discs that I bought on E-bay that were weighed and marked by the seller were at least a gram heavier than marked.



Too bad for you brah. Now you are aware that you are breaking the rules if you throw those discs in competition. THat is exactly why I have never weighed my discs. Ignorance is bliss.

august
Apr 06 2007, 12:11 PM
I think it may depend on which pole you are closer to when you weigh the discs. The North Pole may have a slightly different gravitational field than the South Pole, but I can't say for sure because I have not been to either of them.

accidentalROLLER
Apr 06 2007, 01:40 PM
good thing grams are not a weight, they are a mass. Weighing discs is pointless, you need to mass them with a balance.

gnduke
Apr 06 2007, 01:53 PM
I think someone mentioned that the plastics will absorb moisture from the air and gain weight.

Maybe the discs should be kiln dried prior to weighing.... :cool:

mikeP
Apr 06 2007, 02:05 PM
good thing grams are not a weight, they are a mass. Weighing discs is pointless, you need to mass them with a balance.



I'm pretty sure a disc's weight (measure of the force of gravity on the disc) will do since gravitational conditions do not vary from place to place on Earth. :D So...how many Newtons of force does gravity exert on your discs?

accidentalROLLER
Apr 06 2007, 02:13 PM
.....depends on the position of the moon and what altitude I'm at.

doot
Apr 06 2007, 02:21 PM
From a TDs perspective, what is one expected to do if a player claims a disc is overweight? The PDGA cannot expect all TDs to carry scales, right?

veganray
Apr 06 2007, 03:07 PM
I think the PDGA should expect exactly that. The TD is there to enforce the PDGA's rules, and a scale or balance is a necessary tool to enforce 802.01.

baldguy
Apr 06 2007, 04:02 PM
good thing grams are not a weight, they are a mass. Weighing discs is pointless, you need to mass them with a balance.


silly.

All I know is that my pole has plenty of mass. and weight. sometimes it affects my balance.

virtualwolf
Apr 07 2007, 09:09 PM
A few weeks ago me and a buddy of mine weighed out the discs in our bag with an electronic scale out of curiosity. We checked the electronic scale with a nickel before and after we weighed our discs and both times the nickel weighed out to five grams exactly as it should. The weights we found with our discs were shocking. Innova star plastic seemed to be the biggest culprit of being overweight. Every single star plastic disc that we weighed was at least one gram overweight, if not three or four. I came to find out that I have been throwing a 177 gram teerex and a 178 gram firebird. In fact almost every disc in my bag except the old discs that I bought on E-bay that were weighed and marked by the seller were at least a gram heavier than marked. I think that this is BS on the manufacturer�s part. When you buy a disc you should not have to bring a scale with you to the store to make sure that it is legal even though the manufacturer marked it as legal weight. What�s the deal with this? After weighing my discs I have a feeling that there is just someone in the factory merely weighing the discs by hand. The major disc manufacturers owe it to there customers to give them accurate weights not just for legality but also for consistency when buying discs



I totally agree with this...Why aren't the disc manufacturers held accountable by the PDGA for producing and then selling illegal weight discs? IMO if I buy a disc and it has been approved by the PDGA then it should be legal for play no matter what the weight...

anita
Apr 08 2007, 12:57 AM
5 grams over on a max weight disc (assuming that max weight is 175g) is less than 3% off. That's pretty good IMO.

Higher allowable weights would decrease the percentage overweight a tad.

Honestly, a few grams over isn't going to make a difference one way or another.

I say we fight a different fight.

rhett
Apr 08 2007, 09:29 PM
It all comes down to what the allowable tolerance is. If the allowable tolerance is 3%, then a 180g Firebird is legal and a 181g Firebird is not.

I don't know what the allowable tolerance is.

Mark_Stephens
Apr 09 2007, 09:13 AM
OK... Now, everyone needs to take into consideration the difference between scales as well. 2-5 gram difference can EASILY be on how two different scale are calibrated. You could weigh them with 2 scales, one right after the other and most likely not get the same result and that is to be expected. Slight varitions are going to occur and they are nothing to get upset about...

jparmley
Apr 10 2007, 03:18 PM
I think someone mentioned that the plastics will absorb moisture from the air and gain weight.[QUOTE]


True... If a disc is produced in a arrid climate... let's say Rancho Cucamonga CA for example, then it will wiegh the exact weight that is written on the disc (by the way, I wouldn't mind that job, where do I apply). When it's shipped to Humidtyville USA, the disc is pourous enough (on a microscopic level) to absorb minimal moisture ie 2-4 grams.

[QUOTE]
It all comes down to what the allowable tolerance is. If the allowable tolerance is 3%, then a 180g Firebird is legal and a 181g Firebird is not.

I don't know what the allowable tolerance is.



There's always an "allowable" tolerance b/c you're dealing with plastic. Even the most consistant plastic polymers expand and contract during the molding and cooling process'.

mmaclay
Apr 11 2007, 11:42 PM
Actually, if the disc is weighed closer to a pole (North or South) it will weigh more. If it's on the equator, it will weigh less because it's father to the center of the Earth due to the spin of the Earth causing bulging. A 150 pound person will weigh about 1 pound lighter at the equator compared to one of the poles.

With that in mind, realize that SC and Ranch Cucamonga, CA are relativley far south compared to the rest of the country. If the disc is played a latitude farther north, it will weigh more and thus it will seem like the person with the sharpie and scale are not doing their job as the discs pop out of the molds ;). Obviously, this is less of a problem with Discraft being manufactured in Wisconsin which is farther north. If anthing, it should appear they are over estimating the disc weights :D

Not sure where the other discs companies are located so i can't make up some BS about them. I do believe we as consumers should expect the discs weigh what is marked on them within a gram or two. Keep in mind that dirt is going to add mass as well as dye for fly-dyed discs.

laters,

MADMAX

ck34
Apr 11 2007, 11:52 PM
No, no no. Gravity is based on the amount of mass in the earth at that point and it varies based on maps like this: http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s911917.htm

Mountain ranges have higher gravity on average regardless whether closer to a pole or equator.

I always thought Discraft manufactured in Michigan?

DreaminTree
Apr 12 2007, 12:18 AM
Regardless, the amount that gravity changes as you move around the earth is hardly enough to make a measurable difference in weight, on something as small as a disc. We are talking about total fluctuations of thousandths of percentage points.

mmaclay
Apr 12 2007, 12:53 AM
LOL. yes yes yes
Gravity question (http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=465)

And if you read the previous questions you see my point about the spin of the Earth causing the bulge at the equator thus decreasing the effect of gravity. Also, as you increase altitude in the mountains, you also decrease the effect of gravity slightly by going farther from the center of the Earth. It's all right there on the web so it must be true ;)

You are right about the Discraft thing though. Was thinking Wixom and the thought "WI" and for some reason put it a state off in WI instead of MI. :o Oops...I hope Keith M. and company won't be too hurt by my mistake.

For all those unsure about these last few posts. I'm using actual science to make a mountain out of a molehill. Obviously differences of the effects of gravity on Earth are too minuscule to make a difference in how much a 175 grams disc weighs. Just having a little science teacher fun (there is no Einstein Graemlin with crazy hair but it should be inserted here).

LOL

MADMAX

accidentalROLLER
Apr 12 2007, 09:53 AM
That's why you should measure the mass (grams) of the disc and not the weight (N,lb.). Discs will have the same mass (for a given humidity) anywhere on earth, but not necessarily the same weight. If you take a disc in space, or on the moon, the mass will not change, but the weight will.

Boognish
Apr 16 2007, 07:03 PM
That's why you should measure the mass (grams) of the disc and not the weight (N,lb.). Discs will have the same mass (for a given humidity) anywhere on earth, but not necessarily the same weight. If you take a disc in space, or on the moon, the mass will not change, but the weight will.



Sure, that's the definition of grams, but these are just silly discussions of semantics. The point of this post is very simple.

The maximum legal weight of a disc is set by PDGA. The specs on the sheet for certification asks for "Maximum Weight (g)" and "Expected Weight Range (g)". These are not complicated measurements, and are determined at the production facility using an electronic scale that gives a readout in grams.

They aren't doing mass computations using balances. A guy puts the disc on the scale, and writes down the weight. The maximum weight for most drivers is 175. The problem is, the guy at the plant is putting a disc on the scale that comes up as 178, when the max. weight is 175. Now, shredding up that disc or removing it from production is costs money, so instead, the plant just writes 175 on the overweight disc and ships it out.

The disc is illegal. They are violating the document they submitted to the PDGA listing what the maximum weight of disc will be. Its illegal. Period. If a TD were to weigh the disc (for whatever reason), it would be found overweight and declared an illegal disc. No one would argue that scales vary (not an issue with a well made scale, which I hope these facilities are using), or that they aren't measuring mass, or that the disc took on moisture (seriously, this is plastic and won't take on 3 grams of moisture). The disc is simply illegal. Penalties will apply, disc can't be used.

I personally have weighed 10 discs in my bag in the last 3 days. 4 of the discs on two different scales. All the discs that weighed 175 or less were exactly the weight marked on the bottom, with zero variation. Two of the discs marked 175 were actually 178 and 179. So the only errors occurred on discs that were overweight. All the rest were dead on. This shows intention to mislead.

If you are going to be a producer of discs for PDGA play, then there should be an expectation that all discs meet those requirements. I haven't seen Innova step up and say that any overweight disc you purchase in error will be replaced. They could let you ship in overweight discs, and then send you a replacement.

This, however, is one of the many "suggested" rules that the PDGA has out there. It a rule, but no one really worries about enforcing it. If there are no consequences for violating weights during manufacturing, then the rule simply needs to go away. Or, enforce the rule and establish some sort of check on the production. Random weighing of discs is fine, and can be done cheaply by PDGA officials either at the plants or in stores. If companies are violating, then they are put on warning. Excessive violations, and their PDGA approval is revoked.

With enforcement, how long would it take to get plants in line? Until then, there is no incentive for the plants not to pass on their production errors to the consumer.

james_mccaine
Apr 16 2007, 07:17 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but as some others have mentioned, is the fact that some discs are overweight/"illegal" really that important? Do you ever feel that you lost because someone's teebird had five grams on yours?

I know nothing about the manufacturing process. I don't know if they are lousy at quality control, or some variation is unavoidable. For those people who feel that these discs are truly illegal and shouldn't be used, would you be happy with a rule that had a max weight per diameter, but allowed X% variation that was within manufacturing abilities? This way, you could put the responsibility on the manufacturers, but it would be a fairer responsibility, imo.

rhett
Apr 16 2007, 07:47 PM
Most players want max-weight discs. Injection molding is not a precise science. When shooting for (pun intended) max-weight, some come out over. There is some +/- room for a disc, so not all overweight discs are illegal.

Let's take a 175g "max-weight" disc as an example. There is some +/- allowable, so a 176g disc of that mold is legal. So is a 177g. I think 178g is legal, too, but I don't know what the allowable +/- is.

Does anybody know what the PDGA spec +/- is?

3g � 175g = 1.7%
5g � 175g = 2.85%

So a 180g disc in a max-wieght 175g mold is less than 3% out of spec. 3% would be pretty reasonable tolerance. It actually sounds pretty tight to me.

Maybe my math is wrong.

Does anybody know what the PDGA spec +/- is? Or is it just more fun to make up conspiracy theories and say "let the facts be damned"?

tbender
Apr 16 2007, 10:19 PM
Does anybody know what the PDGA spec +/- is? Or is it just more fun to make up conspiracy theories and say "let the facts be damned"?



Is that rhettorical?

gnduke
Apr 16 2007, 10:30 PM
Your numbers are wrong.

175g max weight discs are 21.2cm in diameter.
The rule is 8.3g/cm.
The real max weight is 175.96g.

It doesn't really change your percentages, but it takes about 1 gram off the overweight discs to start.

29444
Apr 16 2007, 11:48 PM
Couple tidbits to add:

1. I don't think the manufacturers weigh each disc separately. They weigh a stack of 10 discs, and put the average weight on each of them. Weighing each disc separately is way too time consuming.

2. Innova, and I hope the other manufacturers, WILL send you a replacement disc if you report to them that one of your discs is over the legal limit. Dave D. has said this to many folks in the past on this very DB.


-----
IMHO, discs that are a few grams overweight is a non-issue. We have bigger fish to fry. Or, we should...

:D

rhett
Apr 17 2007, 01:38 AM
1. I don't think the manufacturers weigh each disc separately. They weigh a stack of 10 discs, and put the average weight on each of them. Weighing each disc separately is way too time consuming.


I think there is one operator per machine, and that the plastic has to cool in the mold for some amount of time, and that amount of time is more than enough for the previous disc to be weighed and marked. Hence, I think they are all weighed individually.

discette
Apr 17 2007, 08:33 AM
1. At Innova, all discs have always been weighed and marked individually.

2. Innova has always offered to replace new overweight discs.

accidentalROLLER
Apr 17 2007, 09:37 AM
1. At Innova, all discs have always been weighed and marked individually.

2. Innova has always offered to replace new overweight discs.


If (1) is true, why is there a need for (2)?

sandalman
Apr 17 2007, 10:05 AM
dyslexia. 186 becomes 168, you know, that sort of thing.

Alacrity
Apr 17 2007, 10:44 AM
I am not sure that it is possible for TD's to weigh discs, especially since not all scales are created the same, however, would it be unreasonable to request players to weigh their discs at Worlds? Just asking and I know that it would probably take too much time.

As for weight differences, some plastics do retain water, but I find it hard to believe that it could be as much as 6 to 8 grams. This is about .3 cubic inches for 8 grams of water. For anyone finding their disc overweight try packing that same disc in desiccate for a week and see if that makes a difference. However, even if it does, it is still illegal if the disc is outside of the diameter to weight ratio specified by the PDGA rules. Maybe disc manufacturers should make all discs 5 grams under the max weight.

Boognish
Apr 17 2007, 11:20 AM
I haven't read the whole thread, but as some others have mentioned, is the fact that some discs are overweight/"illegal" really that important? Do you ever feel that you lost because someone's teebird had five grams on yours?

I know nothing about the manufacturing process. I don't know if they are lousy at quality control, or some variation is unavoidable. For those people who feel that these discs are truly illegal and shouldn't be used, would you be happy with a rule that had a max weight per diameter, but allowed X% variation that was within manufacturing abilities? This way, you could put the responsibility on the manufacturers, but it would be a fairer responsibility, imo.



I personally couldn't care less about the weight of the discs. I have never worried about other people's discs. My complaint is why have a rule that players can't control and isn't enforced at a production level? If I have an illegal disc, and someone weighs it at a tournament, I take it out of my bag. Next tourney, it can be right back in there until someone weighs it again. There is no way to enforce the rule, and it isn't enforced, so why is it there?

Since this is a rules thread, I suggest a rule change. Simply take out the weight requirement, since players aren't making the discs. Make the rule say that if the disc is marked PDGA approved by the manufacturer, and there have been no post production modifications, then the weight of the disc is legal, regardless of what the real weight is.

That makes the manufacturer responsible for weight, and if there is a rash of issues with overweight discs, PDGA can turn to them. Takes the responsiblity off the players. Of course, all rules about modifying discs, damage, etc still applies.

/obviously this is not ironclad language, just a suggestion

29444
Apr 17 2007, 12:15 PM
Thanks for clarifying Rhett and Discette.

I don't know where I go that misinformation, but I now know better.

:D

rhett
Apr 17 2007, 12:40 PM
The PDGA Tech Standards posted on this website do not mention any tolerances in the specified measurements.

I find that to be absurd.

In any event, per the wording of the standards there is no leeway on 8.3 g/cm so a 21.2cm disc is illegal if it weighs more than 176.0 grams. (175.96 rounded up to the nearest decigram.)

james_mccaine
Apr 17 2007, 12:50 PM
I didn't think there were acceptable tolerances in the rules. However, if you accept boognish's claim that the PDGA should either enforce it, fix it, or drop it, I do find the two proposals kind of interesting from a policy point.

We have a proposal to allow tolerances. In this case, I presume the players are responsible for their equipment, but can fight it out with the manufacturer if they get illegal discs. Alternatively, Boognish's proposal that the manufacturer's stamp is enough for TDs and players, but periodically, the PDGA should spot check discs and possibly punish manufacturers should they fail the spot check.

veganray
Apr 17 2007, 12:56 PM
I don't find it absurd. A rule (or spec) is a rule. The onus should be on tournament players (i.e., ensuring that their bags contain no "rogue" discs, not just relying on the pathetic "It's marked 175, so it is not my responsibility to if I'm throwing an illegal disc"), and TDs (i.e., having the equipment & fortitude to test & disqualify a disc when challenged) to work within the rules, not on the governing body to make rules with enough "wiggle room" to make things convenient for everybody (i.e., unenforceable).

As far as the manufacturers go, each disc should be very accurately weighed & labeled. It is a business decision for each manufacturer to make whether to shoot for max weight discs & discard the many "overs", or to shoot for maybe 2-gram under discs, happily accept & label the many max-weight "overs", and discard the relatively few overweight "overs".

doot
Apr 17 2007, 01:26 PM
As a TD, I find this slightly troubling.

What if a player reports that another player is throwing an overweight disc?

Again, are TDs expected to bring scales during PDGA sanctioned events? I've never seen it happen, but it's possible.

just curious..

doot

veganray
Apr 17 2007, 01:37 PM
Again, are TDs expected to bring scales during PDGA sanctioned events? I've never seen it happen, but it's possible.

just curious..
doot



TDs, when signing on with the PDGA to run a sanctioned event, are agreeing to be the PDGA's agents in enforcing PDGA rules. A decent scale/balance (certainly not necessarily an excellent scientific balance) is a necessary piece of equipment to enforce the rules, so I think every TD should absolutely have one at every event!

Imagine the opposite: you're the TD at an event &, between rounds, Player A complains that Player B is using an illegal disc. You have no scale/balance. What do you do? You either let Player B play on & screw Player A, or force Player B to remove the potentially offending disc (with no evidence except armfeel), thereby screwing him. I can't imagine a TD not wanting a measuring device handy to get him out of such a position with incredible, unimpeachable ease.

DSproAVIAR
Apr 17 2007, 01:48 PM
What do you do? You either let Player B play on & screw Player A,.



Why does this screw player A? His score is not determined by Player B's discs. What disadvantage does Player A have?

rhett
Apr 17 2007, 01:49 PM
As a TD in a sport that is desperately fighting for legitimacy, I do not want to have set up a triple-beam on a table at tourney central. :p

alirette
Apr 17 2007, 02:08 PM
Hmmmm.....where is my scale? :o

veganray
Apr 17 2007, 02:09 PM
It not only screws Player A, but every other player in the field. Let's rock an argumentum ad absurdum to illustrate the point a little bit better:

Gateway invents a new green dye that makes every shot within 50 feet of the basket 25% more likely to go in. PDGA recognizes that & shrewdly outlaws green discs. Player A complains between rounds that Player B is throwing a green disc. The TD just says, "Well, I'm red-green color blind & Gateway has marked the disc as blue, and it'd be too much trouble to gather any empirical evidence about the disc's 'green-ness', so we'll just let Player B play on with his disc whose color will be decreed indeterminate."

You're nuts if you don't think that that decision screws Player A and the whole rest of the field.

DSproAVIAR
Apr 17 2007, 03:08 PM
A disc that weighs 2g, 5g, or 10g heavier than their competitors is not going to have any effect on the competition, and is not going to have any better chance of being thrown well.
How does having a heavier disc put a disadvantage on the rest of the field?

veganray
Apr 17 2007, 03:21 PM
You don't know that (and I disagree), but, even if not, it is an illegal disc. (Maybe you also think it is absurd that a green disc has a 25% higher chance of going in from 50 ft., but Gateway has made it so :)) Allowing a player to use an illegal disc is no different from allowing a player to footfault by 6" every time. Refusing to (or having the inability to) check a disc challenged as overweight is akin to telling the players to keep their eyes shut every time the chronic footfaulter throws.

james_mccaine
Apr 17 2007, 03:37 PM
Not all rules are created equal; violations of some are much more egregious than violations of others. I think DPN's claim has to be addressed head on for this issue to have traction: is the extra weight really important?

DSproAVIAR
Apr 17 2007, 03:41 PM
I agree with you that it is a rule and rules should be followed.

But I don't see an advantage if one person's disc is marked the same as another's (175) and is 5 grams overweight. I don't think that a TD is screwing the rest of the field if one player has an overweight disc that the player does not know is overweight.

veganray
Apr 17 2007, 03:47 PM
I don't think that a TD is screwing the rest of the field if one player has an overweight disc that the player does not know is overweight.



Me either. But if another player complains, then it is the TD's responsibility to make both players aware of the disc's weight and, therefore, legality. If the TD is either unwilling or unable (due to the lack of a readily available, inexpensive measuring device) to let both the plaintiff & defendant know the legal status of a challenged disc, somebody's getting the short end of the stick.

Also a disclaimer: I don't really care if another player throws a dumpster lid out there, but if there is a rule on the books (and there is), it should be both enforceable & enforced!

veganray
Apr 17 2007, 03:58 PM
Not all rules are created equal; violations of some are much more egregious than violations of others. I think DPN's claim has to be addressed head on for this issue to have traction: is the extra weight really important?


What? Where is this "heirarchy of rules" defined? Or is it just that each TD gets to set his own "heirarchy", and the ones too shiftless to throw a scale into the trunk before leaving for the event get to put 802.01E at the bottom of their lists?

Apr 17 2007, 04:23 PM
Go play a tourney with 150-class discs. In the wind.

veganray
Apr 17 2007, 04:27 PM
I do, all the time, and it is a beeyatch sometimes!! So the "5g makes no difference" argument, while also spurious in form, is very dubious in content.

PS - I knew argumentum ad absurdum would bring out the Dodge-man. :DMissed ya at States, brutha. It was a cold, wet, windy, 150-class blast!!!!!

DSproAVIAR
Apr 17 2007, 04:40 PM
Go play a tourney with 150-class discs. In the wind.


No.

But I will play a tourney with 170g drivers and 175g mids if you would like.

bruce_brakel
Apr 17 2007, 04:40 PM
I think this whole debate is trumped by the Golden Rule: "He who has the gold, makes the rules." The PDGA can make all the rules they want. Innova has the gold. :cool:

james_mccaine
Apr 17 2007, 04:43 PM
How does comparing throwing a 150 gram disc on the beach imply that the "5 gram makes no difference" argument is spurious? The only relevant test would be to throw a 175 gram disc and a 180 gram disc, notice some huge variation, and then conclude the argument is flawed.

Whether we agree on the matter or not, I still feel it is apparent in disc golf, all with all other life rules, that some rules are more important than others. Pencil whipping vs. stepping on mini. Playing the wrong disc vs. calling out names when taking scores. Most reasonable people easily see the difference. Not surprisingly, most people understand why the formers are called more often than the latters.

DSproAVIAR
Apr 17 2007, 04:43 PM
I don't think that a TD is screwing the rest of the field if one player has an overweight disc that the player does not know is overweight.



it is the TD's responsibility to make both players aware of the disc's weight and, therefore, legality. If the TD is either unwilling or unable (due to the lack of a readily available, inexpensive measuring device) to let both the plaintiff & defendant know the legal status of a challenged disc, somebody's getting the short end of the stick.



But why? What disadvantages are there to the rest of the field if one player is throwing overweight discs?
I just don't think there are any.

veganray
Apr 17 2007, 04:50 PM
I'm really stressing the argument, "If it is a rule, it should be enforceable & enforced," but, since you asked, if there isn't an advantage (or at least a perceived advantage which, in a mental game like ours, might be even more important) to heavier discs, why is almost every joker out there clamoring for max-weight plastic?

DSproAVIAR
Apr 17 2007, 05:06 PM
I don't know about others. I throw 170+ because I've always thrown 170+, and I like more overstable plastic. A lighter disc would flip more, but is that a disadvantage?

veganray
Apr 17 2007, 05:14 PM
Suppose this:
I throw 190+ because I've always thrown 190+, and I like more overstable plastic. A lighter disc would flip more.

Are you contending that a TD refusing to (or being ill-equipped to) disallow me from throwing my go-to, illegal, discs is not a disadvantage to the rest of the field?

Seems like you're attempting to make my argument for me, only by using the back door instead of the front.

DSproAVIAR
Apr 17 2007, 05:26 PM
Suppose I am in the field.
Why am I at a disadvantage if the player is throwing a 190+ disc that he knows? I know my discs too. I would not be inconvenienced or at a disadvantage.

veganray
Apr 17 2007, 05:29 PM
Your score would not be at a disadvantage, but your score relative to his would be adversely effected by his ability to use illegal equipment. Therefore, your placing in the tournament would be adversely effected. Maybe his comfort level with his illegal discs put him 2 throws ahead of you instead of 2 behind.

Remember, though we always play against the course & ourselves, in tournaments, we are also playing against each other.

Alacrity
Apr 18 2007, 09:28 AM
I am not argueing for illegal discs, but just to stir the ants nest a bit more...... are we sure that throwing an illegal weight is better? In terms of stability, the heavier discs do often appear to be more stable, but I can pull out a 170 Firebird FX or maybe a 171 MAX (put your favorate overstable disc here) and have just as stable a disc. Now if the disc is of a mold that it doesn't flip with a good hard snap then since Force = mass * acceleration if the force I apply is equal, regardless of mass, mass is constant then does it not stand to reason that there is a greater amount of acceleration for the lighter disc? We then have components of mass, drag and lift that come into play during flight with accleration/velocity, lift keeping the disc in the air, drag and gravity/mass working to pull the disc back to the earth. The same lift component for a particular mold with differing mass will effect the distance a disc flies.

Anyone who has thrown a 150 class disc knows that regardless of the mold, you can make it flip, but when you get to the 160 to 170 range it is a different story.

A trick a lot of masters players use is moving down in weight to gain back some distance. So, is the overweight disc truely a better disc or is it simply in violaiton of the standard set by the PDGA? I believe it should be enforced, but at the manufacturers level, not at the players level. It is a standard more than a rule.

DSproAVIAR
Apr 18 2007, 11:58 AM
So, is the overweight disc truely a better disc or is it simply in violaiton of the standard set by the PDGA? I believe it should be enforced, but at the manufacturers level, not at the players level.



AGREED! TD's should not have to weigh any disc. If the manufacturer stamps "PDGA Approved" on the disc, then the manufacturer should be resonsible for making sure the disc is legal.
What a quandry tho. There doesn't seem to be any great solution.

accidentalROLLER
Apr 18 2007, 12:35 PM
Levy fines against manufacturers that stamp "PDGA Approved" on a disc that is illegal or has not been submitted and accepted for approval.

terrycalhoun
Apr 18 2007, 12:40 PM
I would love a 260-gram putter for when I play at Bowling Green on windy days. :)

my_hero
Apr 18 2007, 12:45 PM
We would all love a 200+ gram, small diameter putter for tornadic days.

I hate to admit it but i am in agreement with the others that say This rule should not exsist since it is never enforced.

colin-evans
Apr 18 2007, 01:35 PM
Somtimes a rule is needed just to keep things in check. Are you ready for a solid disc of plastic to putt with or razor sharp driver that could chop someones head off... these are rules not ment to be enforced mor to keep manufacturers in check. IMO

ce

Alacrity
Apr 18 2007, 02:35 PM
but as a standard the manufacturers should be held to, not as a rule to penalize players.


Somtimes a rule is needed just to keep things in check. Are you ready for a solid disc of plastic to putt with or razor sharp driver that could chop someones head off... these are rules not ment to be enforced mor to keep manufacturers in check. IMO

ce

seewhere
Jul 09 2007, 12:52 PM
what would the rule be on a disc falling through the side of a basket? :confused: other than that basket should not be used in PDGA play.

ck34
Jul 09 2007, 12:59 PM
Not in.

seewhere
Jul 09 2007, 01:20 PM
that suxs. thanks Chuck. are those type of baskets approved for PDGA events?

my_hero
Jul 09 2007, 02:17 PM
I have seen Mike Kennedy ace hole #9 at Porter but sadly the ROC (large diameter disc) came out through the side of the tray. One of the "squares" in side of the pan is more of a rectangle and the ROC had to be diagonal to fit through......too bad so sad.

sandalman
Jul 09 2007, 02:25 PM
it happened to my at Greenbelt #12 up on top the hill. yes, it rolled all the way down the hill :(

part of sanctioning should be an equipment condition statement

seewhere
Jul 09 2007, 02:44 PM
part of sanctioning should be an equipment condition statement

I could not agree with this statement any more. it is a sad day when PDGA events are played on equipment that does not meet standards. I bet you would never see a soccer goal being taken away because the ball went through the net!!! :mad:

mitchjustice
Jul 09 2007, 06:23 PM
Most putters can come out the side if at the right angle....Happened to me last week(on the most popular of basket designs)....The Champ was right, we need a better catcher

ck34
Jul 09 2007, 06:26 PM
I bet you would never see a soccer goal being taken away because the ball went through the net!!!



Of course, your putt doesn't count if it hits dead center chains on the pipe and bounces back out. Those shots would be good in soccer, hockey, lacrosse, etc.

losotd
Jul 09 2007, 09:09 PM
In the 2007 PDGA tour standards, PDGA approved targets are recommended, not required for "B" tiers.

One crappy basket out of 54 different baskets played cannot ruin anyone's tournament.

seewhere
Jul 09 2007, 09:24 PM
I never said my tournament was ruined. :confused: I played like [censored] and only blame myself.. I was wondering what standards or rules are in effect if this is a professional sport. sorry if I ruffled your feathers.