You know how much I love to rock the ganja, but apparently some people are against my freedom of religion. To those that would seek to disqualify players for a wee bit of cannabis consumption, I say, phooey wit yoo. There is a far more insidious problem facing the PDGA as disc golf struggles to gain any sort of credibility: Illegal disc use by top pros!

What the heck is that dope smoking bug eyed avatar using shoulda been banned by now guy saying, you ask? Well, it's a little known PDGA rule that PDGA approved discs are supposed to only weigh a certain amount according to their diameter...and it's a well-kept secret that many discs, including those in use by sponsored professional players, exceed the maximum allowed weight of many models.

So I say, drop the urine bottle, and let's weigh the pros' discs on a scale before the next Major, then let's see the pros compete on a level playing field for a change.

Smoke em if you got em too!

I don't think most people want to become snitches.... I think at some point it is going to start happening more, as well as weighing plastic etc. With a larger more main stream association will come more control and more diverse player base than now. So as Mr. Smith said to Neo... It is inevitable! BTW that disc weight issue would make a much better pole than those recently asked. (except that I think it should be more fairly asked) So I will add it to this board

The secret is not well kept. We covered it just a couple of months ago, maybe while you were on vacation. Most discs marked at max weight are a couple of grams over, last I checked. I just got two new shipments of discs. I could check again.

So what was the conclusion...let me guess, sweep it under the rug with those syringes?

Like wow man, I must have imbibed some serious mushrooms. I posted this thread in PDGA topics, but it shows up under Rules & Standards, then when I try to post I have to hit reply way upthread, it's like totally freakin' me out man. So once I post then I see on the main index that I posted something to the PDGA topics section, like far out. Perhaps one of the moderators was trying to harsh my gig man, and they just totally screwed it all up, man, that's what they get for messing with my religious beliefs dude.

Oh wait, they fixed it all of a sudden like wow...the colors man, the colors, wait a minute, we're back in rules & standards again after all, oh wow, this stuff's the bomb wooooooooo man sometimes i'm so glad they don't drug test me man, it would really kill my buzz.

So what was the conclusion...let me guess, sweep it under the rug with those syringes?




I just looked at Carlton's email regarding the discussion on this topic from a month ago. I don't have his permission to post it directly so here's a paraphrase. The question was broken into two parts: safety of overweight discs and competitive advantage. The feeling was that even if some discs slipped thru that were 6-8 grams overweight, it wouldn't significantly change safety from being struck and there's no indication that heavier discs provide a specific competitive advantage with the exception of events with a specific weight limit for all discs like 150 class in Japan. Players' discs were weighed before the Japan Open. I think I read that 152g was the max allowed which is the manufacturing tolerance.

The issue of overweight discs being a problem comes up at least once every 6 months or so according to the Tech Standards group. It doesn't appear those involved with the rule feel more needs to be done other than excluding overweight discs when discovered. Seems like from a practical standpoint, manufacturers don't want to shoot any more plastic into the mold than necessary due to cost. It's not likely you would get a 200g T-Bird since not that much plastic could likely fit in the mold.

Thanks again Chuck. I for one always appreciate your voice of reason....

Yeah, the manufacturers aren't producing overweight discs so players can cheat. Many max weight discs are two grams over because to produce as many max weight discs as the market demands they have to do runs at max weight, which produces some overweight discs.

I have 200 new discs in the kitchen. I'll go scoop up some max weights and see what they average.

My scale is accurate to +/- 1 gram so I weighed them ten at a time. The first ten stack was 1 to 3 grams overweight total. The second stack was 3 to 5 grams overweight.

Actually, that's much better than what I normally get. In the past 10 to 20 grams overweigt for a stack of ten max weight discs was more common.

My scale is accurate to +/- 1 gram so I weighed them ten at a time. The first ten stack was 1 to 3 grams overweight total. The second stack was 3 to 5 grams overweight.

Actually, that's much better than what I normally get. In the past 10 to 20 grams overweigt for a stack of ten max weight discs was more common.


I think there is a +/- for discs, or did Garnett post way back when that infinitely accurate measurement devices were in use by the PDGA?

In any event, I think 3-5 grams heavy is still within spec, isn't it?

there's no indication that heavier discs provide a specific competitive advantage with the exception of events with a specific weight limit for all discs like 150 class in Japan.



I know what you meant, but ALL events have a specific weight limit, it's just not the same number for different diameter discs.

Here's an indication of an advantage, you give me a 20 mph headwind, and I will reach for my heavier disc every time. If the rules committee doesnt' see a problem with 185 gram teebirds, I guess I shouldn't either.

*disclaimer*
To my knowledge all my discs are within the legal weight range.

Considering that no world distance records were set with max weight discs, it's apparent there are more important aspects of disc design that come into play regarding performance. Many players play well not throwing max weight discs even in headwinds including myself. For example, give me a lighter T-Rex versus max weight Roadrunner into the wind. And, I don't need a max weight T-Rex to do the job. Players who study various runs of a specific disc have learned they would rather throw a lighter version of one run than any weight in another run.

The point is that while no one on the committee wants rules to be broken, a balance needs to be struck in terms of the cost of strict compliance for manufacturers and TDs weighing every disc versus the actual competitive benefit of throwing overweight discs and their potential safety hazards.

What I posted has been the committtee's judgment on the tradeoff each time it's been reviewed. Manufacturers do their best to not have overweight discs since it's in their best interest. They will replace any new discs found to be overweight by their customers and extra plastic costs money in production.

Frankly, I think many players would do better not throwing max weight discs so I'm fine if their macho tendencies lure them into throwing even heavier discs. It still doesn't mean they can putt any better. Now, if I could have a special 300g disc for 15 ft putts into the wind... now we're talkin' :D

And, quite frankly, I question the science (is there any?) behind the weight limit.

And, quite frankly, I question the science (is there any?) behind the weight limit.




There isn't any that I'm aware of. Likewise, I don't think any safety info is available. I doubt any disc company or the PDGA would want to touch it. I think the fact we have a weight limit implies an attempt to "be more safe" even though the specifics of what that means isn't known. Even the Japanese who restrict weight of any disc to 150g have to realize there's a difference getting hit by a 150g Valk 50 feet from the tee versus a 150g Aviar near the basket.

Bruce,

If you were weighing 10 discs at a time, is the 3-5 gram difference relative to the whole stack--or per disc? I would assume the former, and hence--on average--a 0.3 to 0.5 gram difference *per* disc. Unfortunately, by pooling the discs we have no idea if some were really heavy and a roughly equal number were really light. But I don't think you need to weigh each disc individually (although a scale with +/- 1 gram precision might do better with 175 g than 1.75 kg....)

Thanks for the data. Cheers,
Steve

So what was the conclusion...let me guess, sweep it under the rug with those syringes?




I just looked at Carlton's email regarding the discussion on this topic from a month ago. I don't have his permission to post it directly so here's a paraphrase. The question was broken into two parts: safety of overweight discs and competitive advantage. The feeling was that even if some discs slipped thru that were 6-8 grams overweight, it wouldn't significantly change safety from being struck and there's no indication that heavier discs provide a specific competitive advantage with the exception of events with a specific weight limit for all discs like 150 class in Japan. Players' discs were weighed before the Japan Open. I think I read that 152g was the max allowed which is the manufacturing tolerance.

The issue of overweight discs being a problem comes up at least once every 6 months or so according to the Tech Standards group. It doesn't appear those involved with the rule feel more needs to be done other than excluding overweight discs when discovered. Seems like from a practical standpoint, manufacturers don't want to shoot any more plastic into the mold than necessary due to cost. It's not likely you would get a 200g T-Bird since not that much plastic could likely fit in the mold.



Wow, that's great! Guess I can smoke weed and shoot smack all day long too, since it doesn't affect safety. Pass that coke mirror over here please. :D

You know, I'd hate to make another example of how having Innova-sponsored players on the Rules Committee is making that Rules Committee and the sport a complete joke, but since Innova seems to have such a hard time making LEGAL discs, why would the RC have the testicles to stand up for what's right? Why would the RC crack down and force Innova to lose a ton of money since they'd have to throw away so many of their overweight discs? LONG LIVE THE COMMUNIST REGIME!!!

If anyone finds they have any overweight discs they don't want to use, please send them to me. Since the PDGA won't test disc weight, I'll think I will not only shoot steroids to make my throws longer, I'll use illegal discs too. Any other suggestions on how I can get an edge?

The stack was overweight by that amount, not the average disc. In those stacks, the average disc would have been overweight by a few tenths of a gram. The scale is mechanically more accurate for weights in its midrange, and a stack of ten is in the midrange.

I don't weigh individual discs unless the manufacturer's weight mark is illegible or the weight sticker has fallen off or it is Cryztal Z with the unreasonably large weight range printed on the disc. I think the PDGA policy is "Don't ask, don't tell."

just imagine a conversation about the test results from a randomly selected sample of production discs. (not related to the weight issue, but other technical standards.)

Party A: wow, that batch of tests had like 40% failing this one technical test.
Party B: dang, thats gonna really mess up the stuff thats out there.
Party A: yeah it is, but its a safety rule. so, what do we do?
Party B: maybe we dont need that safety rule anymore.
Party A: what, you mean we can just relax or eliminate the rule?
Party B: sure! that way no disruption in the market will occur and we won't upset anyone.
Party A: what about the safety issues? i am assuming the rule was there for a reason. after all, a lot of money has been spent over the years developing the technical standards and testing discs.
Party B: forget safety issues. no one really remembers the science behind it anyway. we can always say the new plastic is safer if someone gets hit.
Party A: excellant dude! i am really digging our adaptability and progressiveness!

now, do you REALLY believe such a conversation could happen???

Discraft rocks!

just imagine a conversation about the test results from a randomly selected sample of production discs. (not related to the weight issue, but other technical standards.)

Party A: wow, that batch of tests had like 40% failing this one technical test.
Party B: dang, thats gonna really mess up the stuff thats out there.
Party A: yeah it is, but its a safety rule. so, what do we do?
Party B: maybe we dont need that safety rule anymore.
Party A: what, you mean we can just relax or eliminate the rule?
Party B: sure! that way no disruption in the market will occur and we won't upset anyone.
Party A: what about the safety issues? i am assuming the rule was there for a reason. after all, a lot of money has been spent over the years developing the technical standards and testing discs.
Party B: forget safety issues. no one really remembers the science behind it anyway. we can always say the new plastic is safer if someone gets hit.
Party A: excellant dude! i am really digging our adaptability and progressiveness!

now, do you REALLY believe such a conversation could happen???




Of course I believe it. I thought you were posting a transcript of the last Rules Committee meeting as a matter of fact. Yeah, that Rules Committee sure knows how to make our sport look great don't they?

So while the Rules Committee allows its technical standards to be broken, why stop there? The next time I get called for a foot fault, I'll follow our bought-and-sold-RC's example and say, it was close enough...rules after all, according to our RC, are just guidelines that were never meant to be strictly enforced.

What does a ruling from the Technical Standards Committee have to do with who is on the Rules Committee ?

Any other suggestions on how I can get an edge?



Yeah, get off the **** message board and go practice. You don't see Barry, Kenny or Dave on here much huh?

Any other suggestions on how I can get an edge?



Yeah, get off the **** message board and go practice. You don't see Barry, Kenny or Dave on here much huh?


That sounds like a personal attack against Schweb-nasty.

Considering that no world distance records were set with max weight discs, it's apparent there are more important aspects of disc design that come into play regarding performance.



First off, world distance records are set using TAILWINDS! That's when a lighter disc will benefit you. And the fact that they wait until the wind is in a favorable direction makes that whole thing whack.


Now, if I could have a special 300g disc for 15 ft putts into the wind... now we're talkin' :D



I think you just proved my point, weight does make a difference. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


All I ask is that the playing field is level. Factory sponsored players get the pick of the litter. I have to take whats left. I can deal with that. Just as long as their picks aren't 20 grams over. :mad:

Any other suggestions on how I can get an edge?



Yeah, get off the **** message board and go practice. You don't see Barry, Kenny or Dave on here much huh?


That sounds like a personal attack against Schweb-nasty.



Ha! I forget that mullet sometimes. He's too nice. smirk:

boooohooooo, I have been forgoTTen :(

boooohooooo, I have been forgoTTen :(



Just remember this, in order to be forgot you had to be good enough at something to be known in the first place. :D

I have stated this before in another thread, this is a standard and should not be a rule imposed on players. As for upper tier players getting the pick of the discs and intentionally cheating, that is non-sense.

Don't quote me on this... (BTY, I am whispering right now...) But I heard a rumor from a friend of a friend of my former college room mate, that all the top pros have secretly had a bionic arm installed, and thats why they throw so far and can handle all that extra disc weight! :p