I have heard many times, that us am. women play too slow. I have contended that it is the grandmaster men ahead of us. I recently heard a TD say that he observed the older guys slowing down play, not the women. Nice to know and see that he took time to go out and track it.

T.D.'s take note - it is not always the am women who slow down play. Perhaps you should have the grandmasters behind the women, instead of in front.

-Katie :eek:

Here are results from a time study at Am & Pro Worlds in 2002. Of course, this is just two events:

Pro Conclusions:
1 MPM takes longer than MPO. Estimate 10%
2 Estimate that MPG takes about the same as MPM
3 MPS takes 10-15% longer than MPM
4 FPO takes 5-10% longer than MPM
5 FPM takes about 20% longer than MPM

Am Conclusions:
1 FW1 takes about 5% longer than MA1
2 MM1 takes about 15% longer than MA1
3 FM1 takes about 10% longer than MG1
4 Juniors (under 13) about the same time as MG1

Based on this, I would say the Am Women might be 5-10% faster than the Adv GM.

From pure observation, the women's cards at the Red Rock Show were slower than every other card on the course. On the hole I spotted in the 2nd round, there were two empty holes in front of the open women and there was a two and half hole gap in front of the advanced women.

The rest of the cards came one right after the other which included pro and advanced masters. There weren't any MG1s.

I think it's pretty obvious that the amount of time to play is more related to the number of throws taken (skill level) than a gender or age issue. MG1 and FW1 are typically in the same ratings range. About the only case I've seen otherwise would be junior players where 5 of them shooting worse scores than anyone else can keep up with a threesome of pros.

Slow play definitley is effected by the number of throws taken but it is most effected by how fast the group walks. I'm fanatical when it comes to walking at a good pace and usually end up "dragging" the plodders with me. There are players that walk at a ridiculous pace from tee to drive to upshot to putt etc. It's amazing the difference walking at a walking pace and not the "stroll" that most tournament golfers have learned to walk does to the time of a round.

I think, in general, MPM play slower than FPO and the same for the respective am divisions. However, I was frustrated at a recent tournament. My group was stuck behind the MPM, who take a while in their own right, but they were waiting on every whole for the FPO card, which had about a 5 hole gap in front of them on an otherwise full course.

I would not mind this if it was simply due to them taking more shots, but the group seemed to be playing like it was a casual round, stopping to talk for minutes on end when nobody else was shooting, or stopping by TC on their way to the next hole for about 5 minutes.

I don't mean to say this is the rule, but rather is the exception in my experience. Still frustrating either way.

Lou...That card was not ONLY women.

Sat. afternoon & Sunday morning there were several times our card had to wait on the group(s) in front of us.


Yes, more strokes/throws=more time, but the automatic knee-jerk responses that ALWAYS bottom-line the women's card as being the problem need to stop. It's not ALWAYS the case.

Most of the time the cards in back don't see that the card in front of them had to wait. They just walk up, see players still on the hole, & assume that card must be the problem.

I've seen it happen so often over the years. Even to the point that the MPO leader card was allowed to 'play through' the FW1 leader card just so they (MPO) could then wait on the old guys who were in front on the FW1 card, and the FW1 card then had to wait on the MPO card that just got to 'play through' them.

Who is it? It's different every event, and it's NOT ALWAYS the ladies.

In the tournaments I have ran, 9 tiems out of 10 the slowest group is the advanced masters.

Who is it? It's different every event, and it's NOT ALWAYS the ladies.


Word!

I played an event where the 3 pro women (my card) ended up waiting on probably 2/3 of the holes. It was because the advanced guys ahead of us refused to spot for each other on the woodsiest part of the course. When asked why they didn't send someone down to spot, they said that they were all close to the pin. Yeah, sure....in the tall grass or the bushes by the pin. :mad:

We sent one person down every time there was a chance of shule. It was one of the longest tournament rounds I've ever played. It was also one round where I wasn't tired at the end as I had to sit around so much.

Slow play is more a function of skill level than sex. I know some sssslllllooooowwwwww pro men. They just take the whole 30 seconds every time.... even in casual rounds. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

If one group is taking WAY longer to play than others, it's obvious that they are playing tees that are not for their skill level. That's the TDs problem. TDs around here have learned to keep the lower skilled players on the short tees when the higher skilled players move to the longs. Keeps things moving.

As an Am woman, I can see both sides - I have been held up by the grandmasters who move slower. I've also been in groups when the women play slow due to conversation, and I have felt compelled to get them going.

I think it might be wise of T.D.'s to observe play and think about which group should be ahead on the course. I think it all depends on the people in a tourney.

SLOW PLAY........just because you might play faster then me,and my group might throw more shots then your group
we still have the right to play at our pace not yours.
it doesn't matter just play the your game ,some of us tend to play slower. heck i don't walk that fast(and won't) just to please others that are in a hurry
remember have fun shoot good and enjoy the day

SLOW PLAY........just because you might play faster then me,and my group might throw more shots then your group
we still have the right to play at our pace not yours.
it doesn't matter just play the your game ,some of us tend to play slower. heck i don't walk that fast(and won't) just to please others that are in a hurry
remember have fun shoot good and enjoy the day



It is your duty to keep up with the group ahead of you! :cool:

Here are results from a time study at Am & Pro Worlds in 2002. Of course, this is just two events:

Pro Conclusions:
1 MPM takes longer than MPO. Estimate 10%
2 Estimate that MPG takes about the same as MPM
3 MPS takes 10-15% longer than MPM
4 FPO takes 5-10% longer than MPM
5 FPM takes about 20% longer than MPM

Am Conclusions:
1 FW1 takes about 5% longer than MA1
2 MM1 takes about 15% longer than MA1
3 FM1 takes about 10% longer than MG1
4 Juniors (under 13) about the same time as MG1

Based on this, I would say the Am Women might be 5-10% faster than the Adv GM.



Chuck, do you use these stats to determine in what order to place the different divisions on the course for a tournament with a shotgun start? Something for efficiency that minimizes wait times for the faster groups and leaves less open space on the course?

I don't use them precisely but they certainly guide my decisions for grouping and positioning for starting holes. Sometimes you also know a specific player is slow possibly due to disability so you adjust for that when it occurs. While pros are typically faster players, the top group in some divisions play slower after the first round when the grouping is more random.

It's something that's more important at times than it might seem. At Pro Worlds in 2005, a slow group that couldn't be prodded to go faster cost three or four MPG groups several shots because they didn't get done before a storm delay due to this group. All groups in front of them were completely off the course before the storm delay. The delayed groups could hardly see the baskets as the light disappeared at Nockamixon. I missed making the semis by one shot. I know others have similar stories where it really mattered how the TD set the groups and followed up to maintain speed of play.

I like putting Top MPO card on hole 1 and the Am Women on hole 18-17-etc. That way the chicks are chasing the MPO lead card, and the chicks usually have to wait. :)

Same here. Although I'm more likely to have a four or fivesome of guys over 40 on hole 18 than a full Adv Women group around here.

I like putting Top MPO card on hole 1 and the Am Women on hole 18-17-etc. That way the chicks are chasing the MPO lead card, and the chicks usually have to wait. :)



Exactly my point ... then we get blamed for slow play and lose our rhythm!

But, we're AM women, so maybe it just doesn't matter.