On a recent thread, a disc golfer made the insinuation that those who take unplayable lies, such as when a putt hits the cage and rolls down 100 feet into some schule, are 'dirtbags.' When taking an unplayable lie, you are counting the stroke just made, assessing a one-stroke penalty, and rethrowing from the previous lie, which is quite a punitive action! Why would that make you a 'dirtbag?'

I saw alot of folks this weekend that make it obvious to me very few read and understand the rules. Nobody did anything that I would percieve as circumventing the rules just missing opportunities within the rules. Putts rolling OB and thoughtlessly picking up the marker. Unplayable lies as well. Worst shot (doubles)that could have been played better
or worse depends on which side you are on. Oh, and the non rule of a disc hitting another player/spotter/equipment being a stroke..Well if it isn't a basket ask it to move or don't hit it.

I wouldn't go so far as to name names or call somebody a dirtbag, but this is a far cry from the spirit of 'play it where it lies.' If DG wants to gain legitimacy, I think this is a step backwards. It's a "do-over" (with penalty, but still). It's like on the playground when someone tries to mimic a (insert name of NBA player of the moment) dunk and misses, so they take a do-over.

Sorry, but ball golf has more flexibility than the disc golf unplayable rule. Ball golfers may call any lie unplayable at the player's choice and replay from the original lie with a one shot penalty, identical to our current disc golf rule. They are also allowed to move back from the unplayable lie more than just our 5m and also go sideways no closer to the hole up to two club lengths which we can't do (Rule 28). So, from a credibilty standpoint, we've one upped ball golf in having less liberal options for unplayable lies.

I read some where once about a player making a hole in one and not wanting to buy the traditional round..Took an unplayable lie and a drop.. putted for three. I could research but this is from memory.

i've had people try to tell me that taking the unplayable lie in a situation that the lie is not physically unplayable goes against the intent of the rule. i completely disagree. in fact, if that were the intent of the rule, no lie ever could truly be called unplayable. if the disc got there, so can you. it may take a ladder or some obscene interpretation of verticality, but the lie could always be playable in the mindset of a stubborn group. fortunately, this rule is clearly written.

the intent of this rule is more clearly stated than most rules. by stating that the player is the sole judge of playability, the intent is obviously to eliminate the subjectivity of a group decision. the only way to do that, is to allow the player to take a penalty and be able to declare ANY lie unplayable.

i can only shake my head when someone trys to to tell me "that's not the intent of the rule". then why is it so clearly written?

803.06 Unplayable Lie
A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player�s score.

I had this discussion with a long time Pro and HoF member this last weekend. I told someone on our card who shanked one WAAAAY into the woods on an easy deuce hole that he could just re-tee for 1 penalty stroke after calling his lie unplayable. The Pro disagreed with me, but looked it up and changed his mind.

A 4 would have been the best score the shaker could have gotten with a 5 a very high probability, so odds were in his favor that re-teeing would save him a stroke. But if he felt comfortable he could get a 4 from his lie and did not feel comfortable getting a deuce on his re-tee, using the rule would have been a bad idea.

I think the penalty is punitive enough to not call the user of it a dirtbag. But instinctively, I personally feel it is the honorable thing to try hard to play it where it lies unless there is a high risk of injury.

Sorry, but ball golf has more flexibility than the disc golf unplayable rule. Ball golfers may call any lie unplayable at the player's choice and replay from the original lie with a one shot penalty, identical to our current disc golf rule. They are also allowed to move back from the unplayable lie more than just our 5m and also go sideways no closer to the hole up to two club lengths which we can't do (Rule 28). So, from a credibilty standpoint, we've one upped ball golf in having less liberal options for unplayable lies.



While comparisons of BG to DG often make sense, I find arguments relative to "lie" often are not applicable when comparing the two sports. It's very difficult to shoot from a creek bed in BG; in DG it's a common practice. Due to ricochets, shooting from thick woods in BG is often unsafe; in DG it's common practice.

The "unplayable lie" rule IMHO is a cheap way to gain an advantage. Unless a lie is truly "unsafe," a disc golfer should play each throw from his/her lie. Furthermore, I would suggest the TD prior to a tournament declare which lies are truly "unsafe." I would not leave it up to the thrower's discretion.

I know Dan Doyle has offered casual relief along the rock wall of Warwick Hole 5 during tournaments. The same should be done at any other "unsafe" location (determined by the TD and used universally.) Otherwise, I'm a firm believe that a player should always throw it from where it lies..

With that being said, I see no fault in using the rule to ones' advantage. The thrower is using the rules to save strokes. You cannot fault him for that; fault the rediculous rule.

F Doot

No more than a one shot penalty and potentially distance is justifed for throwing to any particular location. There's no such thing as play it where it lies in DG unless we start kicking the discs instead of throwing them. Our penalties should be no worse than ball golf since our typical number of throws in a round is less. That means penalties in our game our already a higher percentage of the total score.

fault the rediculous rule.



I don't want to pick on your specifically, Doot, but can the people on this board please learn how to spell 'ridiculous.' I've just seen that "e" pop us so much recently...

"your"?

fault the rediculous rule.



I don't want to pick on your specifically, Doot, but can the people on this board please learn how to spell 'ridiculous.' I've just seen that "e" pop us so much recently...



I think the answer is clearly a resounding "no" for "ridiculous" or any other challenging word, such as "their" or even "they're". I don't think they teach that anymore.

"us"

fault the rediculous rule.



I don't want to pick on your specifically, Doot, but can the people on this board please learn how to spell 'ridiculous.' I've just seen that "e" pop us so much recently...



Looks like we have a new deputy in town. Here's your badge. :D

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/276/grammarpolicepj6.jpg

But he's correcting spelling, not grammar.

:)

But he's correcting spelling, not grammar.

:)



Sorry, I don't have a "Spelling Police" badge to give out. Yet. :D

and not being able to spell while correcting spelling is a crime!

But he's correcting spelling, not grammar.

:)



Sorry, I don't have a "Spelling Police" badge to give out. Yet. :D



The grammar police would have commented that he should have used a question mark when ending a question.

"your"?



Yeah, sorry. :oIn my defense, that's an obvious typo, and I don't incorrectly spell the same word everytime I type it.

Thanks for the badge, Jeff. :D

But he's correcting spelling, not grammar.

:)



Sorry, I don't have a "Spelling Police" badge to give out. Yet. :D



The grammar police would have commented that he should have used a question mark when ending a question.



I wasn't asking a question though really, I was more issuing a plea to all on the board.

dang, and to think I have an English degree..

my humble apology.

Although, let it be known I did properly use a semi-colon..you don't see that too often.

I appreciate the semi-colon. I have an English degree as well.

Was it Vonnegut that said the semi-colon is the hermaphrodite of punctuation?

Two guys with English degrees that have full-time professional positions? Wow, that must be a record. :D

Two guys with English degrees that have full-time professional positions? Wow, that must be a record. :D



byte me..

Does that mean if I attempt a short putt in the wind and the wind carries it over the basket and down a hill, that I could attempt the putt again with a one stroke penalty and avoid the potential 3 putt come-back?

If so, that just sounds kind of cheap IMO.

Cheers,
Jeffrey


On a recent thread, a disc golfer made the insinuation that those who take unplayable lies, such as when a putt hits the cage and rolls down 100 feet into some schule, are 'dirtbags.' When taking an unplayable lie, you are counting the stroke just made, assessing a one-stroke penalty, and rethrowing from the previous lie, which is quite a punitive action! Why would that make you a 'dirtbag?'

Noone's forcing you to take the unplayable lie. Just keep playing where you lie, I dodn't see how it affects your game.
Rules is rules, use them to your advantage. Or don't.

Say you have a dirt teepad. If I tee from next to the pad and get a better angle, am I a dirtbag? It would be stupid not to....

Perhaps keeping it simple will keep everybody out of grammatical, spiritual and tactical trouble.
____________________________________

Throw disc. Utter curse. Try again. Take Penalty. Move on.

Does that mean if I attempt a short putt in the wind and the wind carries it over the basket and down a hill, that I could attempt the putt again with a one stroke penalty and avoid the potential 3 putt come-back?

If so, that just sounds kind of cheap IMO.

Cheers,
Jeffrey



You still have to take the stroke you just made, as well as the one stroke penalty. So let's say you are lying two at a distance of 30 feet away, and throw your third shot which carries over the basket and down the hill. You take the penalty stroke (4) and now go back to your original lie and throw your fifth shot. If you miss the putt again, you card a 6. If you make that putt this time, you save a 5.

If you use the original shot down the hill, you would be throwing your fourth shot back towards the basket. It is assumed that this would not be holed out, so you are looking to get up and down for a 5. So using the unplayable lie, you are hoping to make the re-putt for a score of 5 at best, with a 6 possible. You would likely never use this option unless your disc was so deep in the schule that you would be unlikely to reach putting range on your fourth shot. For example, it will take your fourth stroke just to get out of the woods, then a 5th to get to the basket and a 6th to hole out. In this case, does using the unplayable lie really make you a 'dirtbag?' Is it just the name that bothers people, because in almost all circumstances our lies are still playable? Would it be better if the terminology was 'undesirable lie?'

Undesirable lie.....

That reminds me of a few threads from a few years back.....

Don't you think it would be cool to have a rule called a "do-over" in our rulebook? :eek:

For as infrequently as this comes up, there's a lot of effort being expended here. I think I've taken one maybe two unplayables since 1989. I realize that there are places like Dela where this may be more common. My thinking would be that it's a design flaw on a hole if this rule is being used regularly to some advantage versus playing the shot.

You basically are buying a mulligan for 1 stroke. I can think of places like old Hole 13(?) at Nock three or four holes at the Whipping Post at Paw Paw, a few holes at Brandywine and even the woods to the right of Hole 1 at Maple Hill (all Championship calibur courses) where a couple strokes can be saved by re-teeing instead of spending 3 strokes getting out of a deep ravine or punching out of the woods.

Simply put, why should a player be able to save strokes by not having to play from where he/her threw the disc?

Simply put, why should a player be able to save strokes by not having to play from where he/her threw the disc?




As I pointed out, some of these situation are design aspects that either we can't or don't want to deal with. There's no shot that's so bad that throw and distance isn't enough penalty. If it's enough in ball golf, we should have no worse penalty considering the fewer total throws we typically make in a round. Explain why a shot going OB into the water, that's deep enough to also lose your disc, should "only" get at worst a throw and distance penalty and a shot yanked into the woods, that's not lost, should force a player to expend even more throws to hack their way out?

Plus the three minutes everyone on the card has to spend trying to find it ?

If I shank one OB, I can take +1 and re-tee; if I shank it and lose it, I can take +1 and re-tee; if I don't like the shot, I can take +1 and re-tee except if it's above 2m. In that case I would take +1 for the 2m and then +1 and re-tee for the unplayable lie. That seems just plain wrong. I know I've said it before; I'd like the 2m rule written with the same consequences as an unplayable lie. I guess I should never look up when searching for a lost disc deep in the woods.

There's no shot that's so bad that throw and distance isn't enough penalty.



Chuck, you've never seen me play..


Explain why a shot going OB into the water, that's deep enough to also lose your disc, should "only" get at worst a throw and distance penalty and a shot yanked into the woods, that's not lost, should force a player to expend even more throws to hack their way out?



Simple. The disc in the defined OB lake truly is "unplayable" and you know your penalized 1 stroke for throwing into the lake, the other throw is "undesirable," and can be arbitrarily decided by the thrower on the spot, without discussion, which option he/she would choose. But the argument goes further than just semantics.

Almost every tournament I compete in I'm in a situation where it costs me strokes to hack my way back onto the fairway. I feel since I put myself in the situation, I should be penalized accordingly. OB is a designated area, and a more conservate shot is often played to avoid such areas. But if I play an aggressive route that potentially could leave me in an area of thick brush or a deep ravine, (and my usual inability to execute puts me in one of these situations) I should be penalized accordingly. If it means choosing a less risky route, a slower disc, those are conservative options I should have to consider..not falling back on the "unplayable lie" rule.

Again there are many more instances in BG where a lie is truly "unplayable" or "unsafe." But I still feel in DG those instances are few and far between, and the rule takes away some of the integrity of the game.

No sense beating a dead horse here. We obviously have different opinions on this..let's leave it at that.

The reason we don't hack up the forest and clear the brush more like ball golf is primarily cost and also to leave the course more natural looking. I don't feel guilty as a designer when players may yank one into unplayable woods that I didn't groom because we have the unplayable and lost options in the rules. If the penalty was as bad as having to hack your way out of the woods, designers might feel more pressure to thin out brush and larger trees to provide an escape. I don't think that's good for the sport and the wisdom of the rules makers has eliminated the need to do so. If you wish to be noble somehow by hacking out of the woods, continue to do so. Just understand that the game as designed isn't intended to be so brutal and punitive as some would like to play it.

Say you have a dirt teepad. If I tee from next to the pad and get a better angle, am I a dirtbag? It would be stupid not to....



If the dirt teepad has a front line marked, you have to throw from between the marks, perpendicular - up to 3 meters back. If you tee off from the side to get a better angle, you footfaulted intentionally and are a cheater. That would be stupid.

The Rule:


803.06 Unplayable Lie
A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable . The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player�s score.





Maybe if it were reworded to allow the other players on the card to be the judges as to if it's unplayable would stop the "dirtbags."

If I three putt by accident does that make me a 'dirtbag'?

Don't you think it would be cool to have a rule called a "do-over" in our rulebook?



Is there an echo in here ?

The Rule:


803.06 Unplayable Lie
A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable . The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player�s score.





Maybe if it were reworded to allow the other players on the card to be the judges as to if it's unplayable would stop the "dirtbags."



If it were reworded to a group decision, it would not be fairly implemented because some players would never yeild that a lie was unplayable, especially one of an opponent that was a stroke ahead of them going into the last few holes.

While other cards would allow just about anything.

The reason we don't hack up the forest and clear the brush more like ball golf is primarily cost and also to leave the course more natural looking. I don't feel guilty as a designer when players may yank one into unplayable woods that I didn't groom because we have the unplayable and lost options in the rules. If the penalty was as bad as having to hack your way out of the woods, designers might feel more pressure to thin out brush and larger trees to provide an escape. I don't think that's good for the sport and the wisdom of the rules makers has eliminated the need to do so. If you wish to be noble somehow by hacking out of the woods, continue to do so. Just understand that the game as designed isn't intended to be so brutal and punitive as some would like to play it.



All good and true. The trick is determining where to draw the line between thick, eye-poking schule, and not-so-thick schule in relation to distance from the main fairway. The fairway shouldn't go immediately from clear and unobstructed to eye-poking schule, especially if players are landing there regularly. Keep the trees and make it undesireable to go there, but cut out the eye-pokers for a certain distance from the fairway so that there's at least a chance to get back to the fairway.

If going off the fairway means you are immediately in the thick vines, etc., then I think that will encourage abuse of the unplayable lie rule.

abuse of the unplayable lie rule.



i disagree that following the rule should be termed "abuse". are you forgetting that there is a penalty being incurred? i think some folks on this thread have thrown that aspect out the window. if playing from some god awful lie would likely mean more damage to your score than taking a penalty and throwing again, i'd tend to consider that lie unplayable.


the rule as written is the only fair option.

i've used this rule personally only once. it was to save a circle 19 in alternate shot doubles. the basket was on a hill that was covered with solid ice. you couldn't get the disc to stop on it. finally, when the disc did catch a tree i missed the 15'er and it went back to the bottom of the hill. i cited the rule, everyone disagreed so i busted out the rule book and my partner made the putt. "unplayable" in this instance meant that we couldn't get a decent shot from the bottom of the hill.

from dictionary.com

unplayable -
adjective
not capable of or suitable for being played or played on; "the golf ball was in an unplayable lie"; "the field was unplayable"; "some music seems almost unplayable"

almost any lie can be considered "unplayable" for whatever reason. remember though that players will only incur a penalty when conditions warrant it. it could be thorns, a tree putting their hand in danger on the throwing motion, the slope of the hill is such that slipping is a hazard... whatever. as i said before, by putting the decision of playability in the sole hands of the player, the rule avoids the subjectivity of a group decision. it's the only fair, gentlemanly option.

..and I did not say that following the rule is abuse. However, anything can be abused.

If going off the fairway means you are immediately in the thick vines, etc., then I think that will encourage abuse of the unplayable lie rule.



sorry, i must of misunderstood this. i don't understand how following the rules in any manner could be construed as "abuse".

Fair enough. It's all relative. It's just a matter of a person's definition of what constitutes abuse, and that will vary from person to person.

The fairway shouldn't go immediately from clear and unobstructed to eye-poking schule, especially if players are landing there regularly. Keep the trees and make it undesireable to go there, but cut out the eye-pokers for a certain distance from the fairway so that there's at least a chance to get back to the fairway.




I agree. Usually, the brush along the edges of tree lined fairways gets worn down appropriately once a new course gets enough play. That's one of the downsides of temp courses for Worlds and any other event. If the course has lots of schule or has wooded fairways, it may be brutal offline because course traffic hasn't had a chance to break in the rough. At Highbridge and some other courses with brush lined fairways, we're doing what has been referred to as a German cut where brush is thinned out about 10-15 feet beyond the main line of big trees or brush that defines the fairway. This way, players have some room to execute reasonable recovery shots versus just pitching back out to the fairway.

I will never give an OK for an "unplayable lie"...Thats carp...What the hell is unplayable in disc golf....Sure, if your disc is on the wall of a 150ft cliff, or inside a rattle snake den, but cmon...I can tell you right now, that i will not allow this to happen in my group. You will have to argue good and hard to try and prove that your lie is 'unplayable' and not just undesireable. Give me a break.
I had a putt from 10ft on hole 18 at the USDGC last year that hit chains, basket, and then rolled all the way down the hill to the water OB...should i have reputted? No!!! thats corny, and i couldnt have lived with myself...Unplayable in disc golf, just try it....I will penalize you for cheating by scoring your hole incorrectly.

Carp all you want it's in the rules and it does not require an OK from anybody. :cool:

I had a putt from 10ft on hole 18 at the USDGC last year that hit chains, basket, and then rolled all the way down the hill to the water OB...should i have reputted? No!!! thats corny, and i couldnt have lived with myself...

yes, you should have repuTTed. but, using the OB rule and not the unplayable lie rule.

actually, you should have made the 10 ftr

I had a putt from 10ft on hole 18 at the USDGC last year that hit chains, basket, and then rolled all the way down the hill to the water OB...should i have reputted? No!!! thats corny, and i couldnt have lived with myself...

yes, you should have repuTTed. but, using the OB rule and not the unplayable lie rule.

actually, you should have made the 10 ftr



exactly. knowing the rules might have earned you more $$$!

803.09.B. A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from:
(1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or
(2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole; or
(3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided. These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01).

I had a putt from 10ft on hole 18 at the USDGC last year that hit chains, basket, and then rolled all the way down the hill to the water OB...should i have reputted? No!!!



Yes. Perhaps the difference between being a 1002 versus 1030 player - using the rules where allowed. If that had happened to Ken or Barry, I'm pretty certain they would have taken the 10 footer since this scenario has come up a few times at the Fountain and they know this rule choice.

Carp all you want it's in the rules and it does not require an OK from anybody. :cool:


You have to tell your group you are taking an unplayable lie. I will check your lie, see that its playable, and i will say no. If you do, I will i will laugh at you for life, and get all golfers i know to do the same. Unplayable? Cmon..Please explain this to me...Or rather just say, 'you know what, I am not skilled enough to make this shot, please let me take it from an easier spot.' Then i will feel your humiliation, and keep it in storage, change the pitch of my voice, and repeat the saying everytime i see you. thats all...Just another way to forget the moral standards of the game of golf by circumventing the rules to your own favor...
I have seen this before, in a self called footfault, retee, and park for 2...I let that golfer know, that he was a cheater. Although inside the rules, he cheated himself and all the other golfers in the event...CARP i say, CARP.

how many times do we need to reference it?
leaving it up to the group would make it completely subjective to the group's composition. besides, YOU'RE TAKING A PENALTY! the situations where this rule comes into play are few and far between. how often is it really worth a penalty to re-tee (or shoot from previous lie)? in those instances, i'm certain the "playability" of the shot could be questioned in any number of ways.

fortunately, this rule is clear and fair. it sounds to me like you (and a lot of people on here) are completely ignoring the fact the you take a penalty to avoid the lie. that is entirely different than calling yourself for a foot fault without penalty (which is shady but only a symptom of lack of vigilance in calling them all the time).

803.06 Unplayable Lie
A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player�s score.

I just think its shady to take advantage of the rules....Hole two at hawk Hollow for instance...If your putt hits and rolls 340 ft to the bottom of the hill and get in some prickers or goes into the river, thats gonna be a big score...not if you take an unplayable lie and re putt...booo on that...whats the point of a dangerous green...
I just dont agree with it, that all...I would never do it.

sheeesh! first, you are talking about an entirely different rule. second, please include "with a penalty" as noted below.



I just think its shady to take advantage of the rules....Hole two at hawk Hollow for instance...If your putt hits and rolls 340 ft to the bottom of the hill and get in some prickers or goes into the river, thats gonna be a big score...not if you take an unplayable lie and re putt <font color="red">with a penalty</font> ...booo on that...whats the point of a dangerous green...
I just dont agree with it, that all...I would never do it.



i think it's more shady to claim that you are going to raise a stink on your card and claim that someone is cheating who is actually following the rules without knowing them yourself.

Just another way to forget the moral standards of the game of golf by circumventing the rules to your own favor...



Although I understand where you're coming from, ZZ, it's not circumventing the rules. It's completely within the rules, and knowing how the rules work to work them in your favor is also a skill. If anything, blame the rule, not the player who abides by them. Spirit of the game is one thing, but the rules are the rules.

Its a horrible rule that doesnt need to be there...Unplayable lies are crap...Maybe only the GM division should be allowed to use it...Unless it risks personal injury, its silly...

The reactions you have threatened above in prior posts will only result in trouble for you, not the player who uses the unplayable lie rule. It's unsportsmanlike to mock other players and against the rules to write down scores incorrectly.

when did he say anything about writing scores incorrectly?

Just saying.....I dont like it...Ive been playing a lot of discgolf for many years now, and i have never come accross an unplayable lie. I have had my disc on top of an ant mopund at renny gold, and thrown from there, I have been on the edges of cliffs...I dont like it....The same as calling yourself for a footfault.

I will penalize you for cheating by scoring your hole incorrectly.

The same as calling yourself for a footfault.



It has to be backed by others so it never works out for the "dirtbag"

I ve seen it work.....

Just saying.....I dont like it...Ive been playing a lot of discgolf for many years now, and i have never come accross an unplayable lie. I have had my disc on top of an ant mopund at renny gold, and thrown from there, I have been on the edges of cliffs...I dont like it....The same as calling yourself for a footfault.



what's good about the rule is that most people don't want to take that penalty. it's a rare occurance that the lie is so bad, that you can't take an out and be in a better spot than the previous lie with a penalty. stroke and distance HAS to be an option if we allow players to avoid dangerous situations. more often than not, the stroke is worth more than safety.

i've only ever seen the rule come up once. if you factor in the penalty stroke (which a lot of people on here aren't doing), you'll be hard pressed to think of instances where it comes up as a sensible option. the ob/previous lie rule on the other hand is another story.

scratch that-- once i stepped into a buried hornets nest and was swarmed. they swarmed both me and my bag. it was a practice round so i didn't think twice about it and played out from behind the buzz. too bad they had gotten me about 10 times including twice on my throwing hand (day before last year's june Paw Paw event while i was still on antibiotics for lyme and playing against doctor's orders :p). if my disc lands IN an f'ing hornets nest again, i'm takin a stroke!

I ve seen it work.....



I've seen it tried, but the other players on the card were too keen....if you know what i mean. :D

Just saying.....I dont like it...Ive been playing a lot of discgolf for many years now, and i have never come accross an unplayable lie. I have had my disc on top of an ant mopund at renny gold, and thrown from there, I have been on the edges of cliffs...I dont like it....The same as calling yourself for a footfault.



That is great YOU will never have an unplayable lie. Congrats.

However, as the rules states, it is up to the player in question and to that player alone. It is not up to you or anyone in the group. So, like the rule or not, you are just going to have to live with it and leave your proposed bullying tactics at home.

Here's an opportunity to create a new "Unplayable" event. Find the nastiest place possible on each hole and tee off from there. Just like Ice Bowl, no wimps or whiners allowed.

I like it!

Here's an opportunity to create a new "Unplayable" event. Find the nastiest place possible on each hole and tee off from there. Just like Ice Bowl, no wimps or whiners allowed.



For $200 an hour I will gladly find these places on every hole..won't take me long, either..

bullying tactics...?
Just saying ill let you know how i feel....Some people keep quiet when people temper tantrum and kick trees and bags...Some dont....Just saying i will let u know how i feel.

You have to tell your group you are taking an unplayable lie. I will check your lie, see that its playable, and i will say no. If you do, I will i will laugh at you for life, and get all golfers i know to do the same. Unplayable? Cmon..Please explain this to me...Or rather just say, 'you know what, I am not skilled enough to make this shot, please let me take it from an easier spot.' Then i will feel your humiliation, and keep it in storage, change the pitch of my voice, and repeat the saying everytime i see you. thats all...Just another way to forget the moral standards of the game of golf by circumventing the rules to your own favor...

Is a LOT more extreme, than letting someone know how you feel. You are saying, you do not care what the rules ACTUALLY say, you are going to try to enforce what YOU think as best or what the rules should be. So, yes that is being a bully.

Just play by the rules and as long as everyone else does, you are just going to have to deal with it, like it or not.

You have to tell your group you are taking an unplayable lie. I will check your lie, see that its playable, and i will say no. If you do, I will i will laugh at you for life, and get all golfers i know to do the same. Unplayable? Cmon..Please explain this to me...Or rather just say, 'you know what, I am not skilled enough to make this shot, please let me take it from an easier spot.' Then i will feel your humiliation, and keep it in storage, change the pitch of my voice, and repeat the saying everytime i see you. thats all...Just another way to forget the moral standards of the game of golf by circumventing the rules to your own favor...

Is a LOT more extreme, than letting someone know how you feel. You are saying, you do not care what the rules ACTUALLY say, you are going to try to enforce what YOU think as best or what the rules should be. So, yes that is being a bully.

Just play by the rules and as long as everyone else does, you are just going to have to deal with it, like it or not.



Not to mention that those actions are against the rules and will likely result in you being given penalty strokes.

Nothing there is agaisnt the rules...
Sorry i spoke up...There are plenty of rules that are silly, and just because they are rules does not make them right. please dont say that it does. I think it should be a group call...But whatever....Dont hate me for how i feel about it.

You can feel any way you want about the rule. A lot of people have spoken up here and said the same thing.

The point is, taunting someone who uses the rule and making fun of them for life isn't the way to play the game and is way more outside the rules than using an unplayable lie.

We can just agree to disagree that it is a good rule. There is no room for hating within the Disc Golf Family. ;)

I don't hate anyone for how they feel about anything.

I'm sorry, I thought rudeness was specifically covered in the courtesy rules.

It's not.

It's only covered in 804.05, so there are no penalty throws defined for it.


I care if players are belittled or berated when following the rules. I care even more if they are bulied into not taking advantage of rulings that could be in their favor.

You are not on every card, and they should have the same access to proper rulings as other cards without paying a mental penalty for doing the right thing.

Following the rules is always the right thing.

It's a fact that there truly are unplayable lies. Landing in a tree for instance, which we handle with or without penalty using the 2m rule. My one unplayable I remember taking in the 1998 Worlds was landing so deep in a pricker thicket my body would have been ripped apart trying to get to it let alone play from it.

The question would be, "What's a better way to handle them if you didn't have the rule as written?" I think if you go thru the alternatives, the current rule as written is the best alternative. That's not surprising since ball golf has a had several hundred years longer than the age of anyone here to sort out the most fair and workable rule.

Prior to our current version of the rule, it would cost you a 2-shot instead of a 1-shot penalty to go back to your original lie for any reason. That was inconsistent and more punitive than any other penalty in our rules considering that it was worse than a suspended lie which may or may not have been penalized under the 2m rule. There's just no way you could fairly require the group to make the unplayable call. In ball golf, there are lefty/righty situations where a lefty might have no trouble making the shot when the ball is on one side of the trunk, but a righty would have to flip over the club and play with a lefty stroke. Or, they can take the penalty. So, who's to say a shot is playable or not? Only the player can truly make the call.

So, ZZ I'm throwing down the gauntlet for a you to provide a more fair and consistent way to handle unplayable situations if you think the current rule is poor. Several rules may not seem like the best for all situations that might occur under that rule. But over time it's been determined to be the best overall compromise among the alternatives.

Too bad the rule revision didn't go with "Undesirable Lie" when they changed the name.

These exact same "moral arguments" were used against anyone ever using this rule when it was named the "Unsafe Lie" rule. So not much has changed.

There is no arguing if some wants to call their lie "indesirable" and take a stroke penalty to re-throw from the previous spot.

Too bad the rule revision didn't go with "Undesirable Lie" when they changed the name.

These exact same "moral arguments" were used against anyone ever using this rule when it was named the "Unsafe Lie" rule. So not much has changed.

There is no arguing if some wants to call their lie "indesirable" and take a stroke penalty to re-throw from the previous spot.



I'm starting to think that it's not just a case of semantics, but an overwhelming adherence to the tenet that you should play it where it lies, no matter what.

unless of course it is stuck 15 meters up. then its a **** fine shot that should be rewarded with a birdie.

I would like a clarification of the unplayable lie rule, please. If your throw goes down a steep embankment with lots of trees and schule, you still have to locate it before announcing it as unplayable, right? Because if it happened to be stuck over 2 meters and the penalty for that was in effect, you would need to take a penalty for the 2M, and one for the unplayable. Now if the 2M rule was not in effect, could you skip the trip down the "mountain" and just call it unplayable?

Or stand at the top of the embankment for 3 minutes and declare it lost.

I would like a clarification of the unplayable lie rule, please. If your throw goes down a steep embankment with lots of trees and schule, you still have to locate it before announcing it as unplayable, right? Because if it happened to be stuck over 2 meters and the penalty for that was in effect, you would need to take a penalty for the 2M, and one for the unplayable. Now if the 2M rule was not in effect, could you skip the trip down the "mountain" and just call it unplayable?



When the 2M rule is in effect, the disc is considered OB. A player always has the option to take stroke and distance for all OB's:

B. A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from:
(1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or
(2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole; or
(3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided. These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01).




There's no need to climb down a steep embankment to search for a disc if the player declares it to be "unplayable" as "A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable."

A nice addition to the 2-meter rule now would be the option of throwing from the previous lie. It would fit in nicely with the Unplayable Lie rule that way.

I think we should change the name of the rule to "undesirable" lie, that way, we sounds more like puzzies.....or lazy/stoned/unathletic hippies.

"Aw man, I threw down that hill.....I don't wanna walk all the way down there. I'll just leave it and take a stroke."

When the 2M rule is in effect, the disc is considered OB.



That is not correct. If the 2m rule is in force, it's necessary to determine whether the disc is suspended. Although it's more in the interest of other players in your group to find your disc suspended. If the disc is suspended, then it will be a penalty and marked below the tree. Then, you take an unplayable with additional penalty if you don't like that lie. Now, I would say if you're willing to accept a 2-shot penalty and rethrow from the tee without walking down the embankment to see whether your drive is suspended, I would be OK with that.

When the 2M rule is in effect, the disc is considered OB.



That is not correct. If the 2m rule is in force, it's necessary to determine whether the disc is suspended. Although it's more in the interest of other players in your group to find your disc suspended. If the disc is suspended, then it will be a penalty and marked below the tree. Then, you take an unplayable with additional penalty if you don't like that lie. Now, I would say if you're willing to accept a 2-shot penalty and rethrow from the tee without walking down the embankment to see whether your drive is suspended, I would be OK with that.



d'oh, i read the rule wrong!

i would argue that a player SHOULD be able to take stroke and distance whenever they want, like in you know what.

Nothing there is agaisnt the rules...
Sorry i spoke up...There are plenty of rules that are silly, and just because they are rules does not make them right. please dont say that it does. I think it should be a group call...But whatever....Dont hate me for how i feel about it.



I don't think anybody hates you for the way you think. I used to race wooden sailboats and felt that everyone who had a modern plastic boat with electronic gadgets was a wimp. Nonetheless, they were working within the rules, and I never taunted them or broke the rules to get even. Accordingly, I just can't understand the defense of your position in the face of overwhelming evidence that you are unequivocably wrong. A gentleman admits his error.

Golf is a game for ladies and gentlemen. That doesn't mean you have to wear Ralph Lauren or speak the King's English, but it does require you to act in a socially acceptable way. Taunting other players and violating rules does not meet that requirement.

Mike August = The Velvet Hammer :D

Ive never taunted or bullied a player before, that wasnt a close friend of mine; and that was just is good fun. If you know me, then you are aware that i am as courteous as the come on the course. I just dont like the rule...Have you ever een in a position where you best possible option is to play back to the fairway...Well, that the best possible, and u mess it up cause you lie was horrible. This ule seems to just take that out of play...Why even try to throw a great shot that lands in the fairway when you can just take a stroke be there.
As far as finding a rule to fix the problem, well, many TDs have. I have played many event s where the TD(a local) already knows the unplayable or dangerous places on the course. He outlines these in the players meeting and makes it clear what can be done... He doesnt let the compeitors contrive their own 'unplayable lies' and take better ones....

Why should Harold have all the fun of creating 'unplayable lies' with yellow rope that include a penalty in perfectly playable locations at the USDGC and players not have the same opportunity to declare perfectly playable lies as unplayable with penalty? Bascially, the unplayable lie rule is a self declared OB without the ugly rope.

The only possible alternative I can see for the ball golf and disc golf rule is adding the clause that regardless of what relief a player takes for an unplayable lie, it can't be marked any closer to the basket than where the disc is found. But that doesn't work because you then have no reference for a lost disc. If the player doinks the basket at Dela, the disc rolls down in the canyon and isn't found in the allotted time, the original lie is the only acceptable reference point. Likewise, if a player has a negative tee shot from whacking a tree and maybe even back off a cliff at Pebble Beach, I can't see the player marking and playing behind a tee, especially 100 feet down a cliff to the water. These are a few reasons why the unplayable as written is the best overall compromise and it does give the player the choice.

DG and BG also have the mental game. The fact that every so often you get to take what appears to be advantage of the rules is part of the mental game. The fact you might not choose to do so when the opportunity arises can be the difference maker at our highest levels of play.

Mike August = The Velvet Hammer :D



It's actually a lead hammer with a velvet cover :D

Well, I believe in Karma and figure that if someone wants to use the Unplayable Lie Rule to their advantage in a somewhat shady circumstance then I hope that said Karma jumps up and bites them in the @$$ and puts them right back where they were after the previous screw up shot. If it happened once we can hope it will happen again. :D

Let the penalty strokes multiply!

...Why even try to throw a great shot that lands in the fairway when you can just take a stroke be there.



I just want to make sure I understand this rule. For example, say me and a friend are playing a round of disc golf. He throws a beautify drive down a tight fairway and lands in perfect position for a nice up shot. I on the other hand, shank my drive into a dense wooded area. I decide to use the unplayable lie rule and thus re-tee. Am I now shooting 3 (I count the 1st throw, plus the penalty)? So lets say I then re-tee and have a great drive that lands next to my friends drive. However his next throw is his second but my next throw is my 4th. Is this the way the rule works? If so, I can't think of any instances in my 20 plus years of playing that I would have benefited by using this rule. I would rather take my chances and try to throw out of the dense woods back into the fairway. This way I am shooting 3 from the fairway rather than shooting 3 from the tee box. If someone can use this rule to their benefit, more power to them.

Thanks.......Rick

...Why even try to throw a great shot that lands in the fairway when you can just take a stroke be there.



I just want to make sure I understand this rule. For example, say me and a friend are playing a round of disc golf. He throws a beautify drive down a tight fairway and lands in perfect position for a nice up shot. I on the other hand, shank my drive into a dense wooded area. I decide to use the unplayable lie rule and thus re-tee. Am I now shooting 3 (I count the 1st throw, plus the penalty)? So lets say I then re-tee and have a great drive that lands next to my friends drive. However his next throw is his second but my next throw is my 4th. Is this the way the rule works? If so, I can't think of any instances in my 20 plus years of playing that I would have benefited by using this rule. I would rather take my chances and try to throw out of the dense woods back into the fairway. This way I am shooting 3 from the fairway rather than shooting 3 from the tee box. If someone can use this rule to their benefit, more power to them.

Thanks.......Rick



You got it, Rick. Even though this is something a golfer might actually use only once every 20 years, others are crying bloody murder that it exists.

When the rule was 2 strokes for anywhere no closer, I saw it used to the player's benefit during Am Worlds in KC on Rosedale down under. An Ace run ran past the basket and 200' down the hill to the botom of the hill. Because of the denseness of the young tree growth and the steepness of the hill, it may have actually been almost impossible to get back to the fairway in one day (without rolling back down and starting over). Instead the player took the 2 strokes and moved back to just ahead of the tee throwing 4.

There are courses where this rule takes some of the teeth out of running at the basket and missing it.

Thanks Jeff, I knew I had lost my badge somewhere...
Ben

Hey Disc Golf players, I know this is coming in a little late...my apologies for that. If you would just try to imagine what would happen if "play it where it lies" or have the group determine your lies "playability", then you will see that it is very likely that these same arguments would ensue over whether or not the lie is playable...can you imagine ME determining whether or not YOU could play YOUR lie? Or maybe you have a very bad reaction to poison oak but the group determines that you should just go ahead and play that lie anyway...That is why it is left ENTIRELY up to the player to decide...the choices are there in the rules...penalty or try the throw...whether you can control your own machismo to use the rules or not is entirely up to you!

I have seen people throw time after time from impossible lies simply because they are mad...ego driven...or don't understand how the rules are set up...Hell, I've done it! :o

It is ENTIRELY up to you to decide!
Good luck with your decisions...and try not to let others goad you into not using the rules to your best advantage!

Aces to you all! :cool:

When the rule was 2 strokes for anywhere no closer, I saw it used to the player's benefit during Am Worlds in KC on Rosedale down under. An Ace run ran past the basket and 200' down the hill to the botom of the hill. Because of the denseness of the young tree growth and the steepness of the hill, it may have actually been almost impossible to get back to the fairway in one day (without rolling back down and starting over). Instead the player took the 2 strokes and moved back to just ahead of the tee throwing 4.

There are courses where this rule takes some of the teeth out of running at the basket and missing it.



And we used to make people playing at Rosedale (on eother course) aware of this option when it existed. It's easy to get to the Down Under with an errant tee shot from the top course. It's not so easy to get back to the top course from the Down Under.