So is it really true that the Melbourne Open's tee-off on Saturday was delayed two hours because Kenny's car broke down on the way and the TD decided to wait the tourney for him?

Can this possibly be true or is my buddy Bennett pulling a fast one on me? If it's true, has this ever happened in DG before, let alone an A - Tier?

The Champ has played this tourny 16 or 17 years in a row....if you were going to delay a tee-off for ANYONE......well....nuff said....

The Champ has played this tourny 16 or 17 years in a row....if you were going to delay a tee-off for ANYONE......well....nuff said....



I seriously hope that is not what happened. If so there are rules that stipulate what should be done. I.E. take a 7 on each hole until the player arrives.
JohnE was late to the final round of the worlds this past year in Augusta and he was certainly in contention, should they have held the tourney up to wait on him?
Well they certainly did not.

There was a slight delay that was not even close to 2 hours. I never got the official word on what caused the delay. I have been to fewer tournys that started on time then have started late. I did not hear any complaints from any participants and I was not inconvenienced as there was plenty of daylight and a small field allowed a smooth flow to the play....

The Champ has played this tourny 16 or 17 years in a row....if you were going to delay a tee-off for ANYONE......well....nuff said....



Ken, although a great guy and a great golfer, is no better than anyone else.

If it was a casual intermediate that was in the same situation, I certainly hope that the TD would have done the same thing for him.

However, I highly doubt this would have happened.

Knowing Bennett, it was probably more like a half hour.

I think we need to know the actual story before speculating.

At last year's Melbourne, Sunday morning, I was relaxing in my car before the round. I step out and stretch a little. Then a loud horn went off. I started running and luckily discovered, I was only a hundred feet from my tee pad. True story.

Fact:
Anything heard third person, on TV, or on the Internet is automatically true. Anything in print is also indisputable.

I would be willing to bet it had nothing to do with any player being late most likely just a situation that needed to be handled buy the TD before play could begin.

But since the average person may not be aware of said situations, rumors arise.....

If nobody involved with the tourny is complaining then it is a moot point anyway.....It was a GREAT tournament and although I finished low on the totem pole, it is early in the year for this northerner....I'll do better in Gainesville.....

Thats the spirit channelz.

You going up to Augusta for the hall of fame classic?

I am heading up on the 18th.

Hi Scot,
I don't see it on the tour list...when is it?
Bart

April 20-22.

3 days, 3 courses, 3 rounds....

Pro NT, Am A tier

PDGA HQ just outside Augusta, Ga.

whoa....my birthday is the 20th....might be a cool place to celebrate....

Heck yeah! Mine is on April 4th. and Augusta is my hometown so I am def heading back for this one.
I have played the North course and it is a one fine course. I am sure the other two will just as nice, if not better.

See you there hopefully.

I was at the tourney. And what happened was, on the players program we were scheduled to tee off at 10am on Saturday morning. Around 8am that morning, Billy Seaman who I was rooming with got a call from Kenny saying he had a car breakdown and was not going to make it on time unless some one would pick him up and take him to Melbourne, at this time he was 1 hour and 30 minutes away, maybe a little bit more, we didn't have enough time to drive there and get back on time so we didn't do it. Comes 10am around and I get word that we are not starting until Kenny gets to the park. A friend has left Clearwater and is picking him up and taking him to Melbourne. It was bout 10am when I heard of this news (and Kenny was about 1 hour away fro the course). At this point I and some other players began to talk to Ron Russell (who was running the tournament) Ron said that weren't going to start at 10am anyway and that we were going to start at 10:30am so we might as well wait till 11am since Kenny has been to this tourney 16 times, we are going to wait for him.
Here is what I think about it.
First, I have a lot of respect for Kenny, if not for him I would not be a good player and might not be playing at all. He is the greatest player the sport has ever seen and he is a friend.
But, Kenny is a PDGA member like me and if I was running late would they wait for me, or even better are there rules we PDGA members abide by or is it simply up to the tournament director to create his own rules and to change them on the spot if he/she pleases. We all run into bad luck and we have to do our best and make it through those times, and Kenny did his best to try to make it on time and he didn�t but it didn�t matter. Just because you are the best player ever doesn't mean you can�t be late sometimes, it happens to all of us, most of us usually take 7s when it happens. I just want all of us to be treated equally and fairly and what happened on Saturday at Melbourne, FL shows me that we as a sport are a long way from that, we are not yet a professional sport. And we definitely don't play by the same rules; they just don't apply to some of us (the same way).
I had to say this since nobody else has. Kenny is a friend and a great guy, but how would he feel if they waited on John McCray at Worlds and held the whole show so he could make it on time.
There were a lot of players unhappy with this decision in all divisions of play, I don't know why they don't speak up, maybe they don't post, and maybe they are worried about what Kenny thinks. All I know is that I still think the same of Kenny but not the PDGA and its system.
Aleksey

Wow....so was Johnny flipping out or what?

Thats bull!!

WOW! I see it happen in monthlies, but a pdga event. Boobs your right, we've got a long way to go in this sport.

Well there it is, people were asking for someone from the tourney to step up and say something. Thanks Boobs for telling it how it was on tourney day. I have the deepest respect for the champ, but if the TD waited an extra 10 minutes on anybody, then he is doing a disservice to all the other competitors. I have been late to a tourney when I was leading it, took a seven on the first hole, had to play the rest of the tourney with no warm ups, and still came in forth. But I guess if I had a world title or 12 the TD would wait....
Yes, Boobs, we have a long way to grow.....

Talking about it here will not get any action taken to deal with the issue. Anyone who has a concern or complaint about what went down needs to contact the PDGA Tour manager, Dave Gentry to look into it. Are you sure KC wasn't carrying the leaderboards in his car? (I'd like to use a smiley but this does sound serious)

I was at the tourney. And what happened was, on the players program we were scheduled to tee off at 10am on Saturday morning. Around 8am that morning, Billy Seaman who I was rooming with got a call from Kenny saying he had a car breakdown and was not going to make it on time unless some one would pick him up and take him to Melbourne, at this time he was 1 hour and 30 minutes away, maybe a little bit more, we didn't have enough time to drive there and get back on time so we didn't do it. Comes 10am around and I get word that we are not starting until Kenny gets to the park. A friend has left Clearwater and is picking him up and taking him to Melbourne. It was bout 10am when I heard of this news (and Kenny was about 1 hour away fro the course). At this point I and some other players began to talk to Ron Russell (who was running the tournament) Ron said that weren't going to start at 10am anyway and that we were going to start at 10:30am so we might as well wait till 11am since Kenny has been to this tourney 16 times, we are going to wait for him.
Here is what I think about it.
First, I have a lot of respect for Kenny, if not for him I would not be a good player and might not be playing at all. He is the greatest player the sport has ever seen and he is a friend.
But, Kenny is a PDGA member like me and if I was running late would they wait for me, or even better are there rules we PDGA members abide by or is it simply up to the tournament director to create his own rules and to change them on the spot if he/she pleases. We all run into bad luck and we have to do our best and make it through those times, and Kenny did his best to try to make it on time and he didn’t but it didn’t matter. Just because you are the best player ever doesn't mean you can’t be late sometimes, it happens to all of us, most of us usually take 7s when it happens. I just want all of us to be treated equally and fairly and what happened on Saturday at Melbourne, FL shows me that we as a sport are a long way from that, we are not yet a professional sport. And we definitely don't play by the same rules; they just don't apply to some of us (the same way).
I had to say this since nobody else has. Kenny is a friend and a great guy, but how would he feel if they waited on John McCray at Worlds and held the whole show so he could make it on time.
There were a lot of players unhappy with this decision in all divisions of play, I don't know why they don't speak up, maybe they don't post, and maybe they are worried about what Kenny thinks. All I know is that I still think the same of Kenny but not the PDGA and its system.
Aleksey



If this information can be verified, Ron Russell should not be allowed to be the Tournament Director of a PDGA-sanctioned event again. This has nothing to do with Ken Climo, and everything to do with a terrible decision made by TD Ron Russell.

I don't think it should particularly be a witch hunt, but we should learn from it. Perhaps make a ruling for FUTURE cases.

This is not the first case I have heard of a TD accommodating a late player.

The same weekend a player who was running late at an Am B Tier called to let them know he was running late. They didn't stop play for him, but they did give him a spot on the card that was on the first hole.



I do not think this is a reason why we aren't a large sport yet. I also don't think this sort of thing would happen once we get to a point where there is a gallery, TV crew, et al at our events.

Huge difference between giving a player a spot on the first hole and postponing the start of the entire tournament field for an hour or more to accomodate one late player. HUGE difference.

I disagree, I feel any altering of cards or procedures is wrong. If it is a monthly local event, I say the local club can do just about anything. But at a PDGA sanctioned event rules have been put in place to keep these types of situations from occurring.
Competition Manual section 1.6 states only two methods for grouping on the first round of a tourney:
1. Random
2. Ratings

No other way is allowed by these rules.

So since I got up early and got to the course on time, I then have to wait for a late player. Not only am I not rewarded for showing up on time, the late player is in no way penalized. It is unfair to all players who show up on time. Showing up on time is just as much of the rules as the OB line.

I want to state that in no way to I feel Kenny is in any way to blame. If a TD gave me the same chance I would take it, and tell anyone who complains to talk to the TD not me.

This is simply a case of a TD voting on PDGA rules with his actions. The �par + 4� penalty for being late is an inherently unfair rule. It penalizes the better player more than the worse player:

For an 800 rated player, they play each hole at roughly par + 1. (SSA=50, Par = 54, 10 points = 1 stroke, 800 player will shoot 70 on average.)
For a 1000 rated player, they play each hole at roughly par - 0.22.

It is absolutely unfair to penalize a 100 rated player 1.25 strokes more per hole for exactly the same violation (1.45 points for Climo).

The TD knew this and was protesting this. What better way than to choose the highest rate player in the world (who happens to be a friend) to conspire with to demonstrate how unfair this rule is.

This is simply a case of a TD voting on PDGA rules with his actions. The �par + 4� penalty for being late is an inherently unfair rule. It penalizes the better player more than the worse player:

For an 800 rated player, they play each hole at roughly par + 1. (SSA=50, Par = 54, 10 points = 1 stroke, 800 player will shoot 70 on average.)
For a 1000 rated player, they play each hole at roughly par - 0.22.

It is absolutely unfair to penalize a 100 rated player 1.25 strokes more per hole for exactly the same violation (1.45 points for Climo).

The TD knew this and was protesting this. What better way than to choose the highest rate player in the world (who happens to be a friend) to conspire with to demonstrate how unfair this rule is.



I am all for changing the rule if its not fair, but you do it by the book. Not on your own accord.
Have to work within the system, not make up rules as you go.

So, Scott are you, Aleksey on any other player who was there going to contact Gentry? I don't disagree with the penalty for the rule although the old par+3 seemed fine. Since most TDs weren't setting pars on holes higher than 3 at the time, I suspect the RC probably felt +4 was necessary to make sure the real par 5s got sufficient penalty.

So, since I agree with the late penalty, as Worlds TD would I be able to penalize KC equal to what McCray received at last years Worlds as a "make good"? :eek: It does appear KC did no wrong here and had the courtesy to call the TD and keep him informed of progress getting there.

Chuck, I did not play that tourney, So I do not feel I have any place to contact anyone on this matter. I was only trying to voice my opinion. And possibly see it from another perspective, but so far I agree that it was unfair to all the other players.

Gentry will not take action from postings on this Board. He's now heard about the incident. But unless someone who actually played in the event complains, no inquiry will be made. It's kind of like any other issues, behaviors or rulings that people have gotten upset about on here such as PW2006. If no one formally complains, no action will be taken. Players need to step up and make the calls where needed.

This is simply a case of a TD voting on PDGA rules with his actions. The �par + 4� penalty for being late is an inherently unfair rule. It penalizes the better player more than the worse player:

For an 800 rated player, they play each hole at roughly par + 1. (SSA=50, Par = 54, 10 points = 1 stroke, 800 player will shoot 70 on average.)
For a 1000 rated player, they play each hole at roughly par - 0.22.

It is absolutely unfair to penalize a 100 rated player 1.25 strokes more per hole for exactly the same violation (1.45 points for Climo).

The TD knew this and was protesting this. What better way than to choose the highest rate player in the world (who happens to be a friend) to conspire with to demonstrate how unfair this rule is.



Whatever. I don't think there was an 800 rated player the Open division (the lowest player with a rating was a 922), so your analogy is flawed. A late player is LUCKY to get par + 4 for missed holes. In most sports, he'd simply be disqualified. Also, TDs agree to follow all PDGA rules when they sign the sanctioning agreement. I really doubt this was some sort of protest against an "unfair" rule. The TD screwed up here, if all reports are true. There's no way to fix it after the fact, other than to try and guarantee it doesn't happen again. There are ways to make that happen.

Chap

I thought I made that post off the wall enough that I didn't need to use smileys. Oh well......

PS: that post was a joke. :D

Is this delay at the discretion of the TD? If so next time you are running late to a tourny maybe a phone call will get you the same break?

I played the tourny and was there at 8:00am. I was ready to start at 10 but did not feel inconvenienced by the delay. I don't see the need to complain and I feel Ron Russell made a TD judgement call. When everybody on this thread steps up and runs tournaments they will earn the right to complain about another TD. I thought Ron and his crew did a fine job running the tourny and we need more guys willing to step up and be responsible enough to run tournaments...not fewer. Is there a specific rule saying a TD cannot change the start time of a tourny?...I don't know. I do know I enjoyed the event even tho I played poorly....

Is there a specific rule saying a TD cannot change the start time of a tourny?...I don't know.



From: How to Run a PDGA Tour Event (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/HowToRunPDGAEvent.pdf)


C. PLAYER'S MEETING
C1. Start on Time
Start the players meeting 10 minutes before you think you need to. Begin the players meeting promptly. Don't wait for stragglers. Call everybody in 3 times (over about a 5 minute period) and then rock and roll. PDGA EVENTS START ON TIME! MAKE SURE YOURS DOES! Avoid "Tournament Directors disease", the practice of delaying the start of the players meeting "because all of the players aren't in yet" while continually yelling to "bring it in". Some players simply are not going to come in for the players meeting and some people are not going to pay attention during the players meeting. The tournament must be run on time. Start the players meeting on time so that you can get the groups out to their holes in time for the posted start.

I thought I made that post off the wall enough that I didn't need to use smileys. Oh well......

PS: that post was a joke. :D



Oh, sorry. It's hard to tell sometimes if someone's serous or not, without smileys. Heck, sometimes WITH smileys people don't get it.

Chap

TD screwed up here? Where is the rule that says we'll start at the time we advertised? Cite me a rule, Chappy.

This is what I think: Kenny is a "name player." I don't know how many name players we have, but when a name player is coming to your tournament there are a bunch of other players coming just to compete against him, or get whupped by him, or breathe the same air he's breathing. Like if a Wisconsin TD knows that Barry is coming to his tournament, he'll get the word out. It's good for attendance. It becomes part of the tournament value.

Unless there's a rule I've missed, as a TD I'd find a reason to wait a bit for a name player to get there if he gave me a call and the tournament was at a time of the year when we had enough daylight to wait.

There's no double standard here. It's a single standard: what's the best thing for my tournament? If I have a bunch of ams or donor pros donating for the opportunity to see Kenny or Barry play, I'm not taking that away from them if i can help it.

yes, there IS a double standard - one for Ken Climo and one for other players. "It's good for attendance"? wow, its a good thing he registered then, cuz this was a A tier with 58 players for the luv of god. (will it be a C tier next year?)

as someone who was told my options were DQ or take par+4's if/when i could not get back to the course when my car didnt start at lunchtime of a sanctioned event, i can empathize with anyone who feels that Climo got consideration outside of the rulebook on this one.

I think everyone with the first name of Ken should get special consideration! ;)

exactly Pat!!

I guess since Kenny is so good, we should allow him to foot fault and get mulligans too.

I just can't believe Johnny Mac didn't go Flip Wilson.

C'mon Bruce, are you serious? Surely you see this wasn't FAIR to the other contestants that showed up on time. (Of course, I know fairness is not your point here.) Did he break a rule? Perhaps not, (804.02 is unclear on this specific topic) although if I were still Competition Director (if there were such a thing anymore), I would think seriously about denying this event PDGA sanctioning if such a thing were to happen again. Surely the TD used very poor judgment here, and I'd be wary of using him as a PDGA Official again.

This is not a marketing issue, as all marketing was done prior to the scheduled tee-off. This is the TD saying, "We're going to penalize anyone for being late, unless you're the World Champ, in which case we'll delay the start of the tournament for you" I'm not even sure it's a good marketing decision...I wouldn't go to a tournament that does these sorts of things, would you? Oh wait, you said you'd run one this way, so maybe you would.

Whether or not he "broke" a rule, the TD still screwed up. As I said, there's no recourse now; the results will stand as played. I stand by my original statement; the TD screwed up.

And if there's a possibilty of you running your tournaments in this fashion, I won't be going to Chicagoland to play any of your events anytime soon.

Chap

Vijay Singh finally won the Bay Hill tournament and $990,000 this past weekend after 15+ straight years in attendance.

If he'd been late for his tee time he would have gotten nothing!

Arnold Palmer once added a stroke by stubbing his putter into the ground on a two-inch putt. Everyone watching thought it was a practice waggle, but he did the honorable thing.

"Mistakes were made" and not just by the TD. I'm not suggesting that we vilify anyone over this, just learn something and take the sport to a higher level. It's nothing like Alberto Gonzalez - that man needs to move on to another line of work.

1.5(A)1 (start times) of the tour guidelines was clearly disregarded. if a player proactively requested the time to be changed, then a violation of 3.3.B may have also occured. (3.3.B mentions the willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play.)

no points should be awarded to Climo for this event. my god, it seems we have so much farther to go than i thought we did.

I remember an event we attended in Sout CACK, where we were late..We had incorrect start times in our minds and decided to have a sit down breakfast...We pull into the parking lot and see plenty of cars, but no people...We knew we were in trouble....Billy crump was on hole one and by walking away from the tee box about 90 ft he could see the parking lot...He and the other golfers, on several holes, all agreed to wait as long as possible to throw so we could grab our bags, put on shoes and run to our holes...that was class....i dont know if the td even knew about it....

Starting an event at the posted time would be a cool rule. I am sure it is a goal of every TD and a goal that very few actually make.

What if there was an accident that blocked a major interstate for half an hour and 25% of the players were going to be late ?

I see this as a marketing issue for the TD. Which option will draw the least flack from the players, the observers, and the peanut gallery. Any decision made after he learns of a late player will make someone unhappy and be considered unfair to one group or another.

Hard to say. If I was the TD, and I was already going to have a delayed start, I would have made an estimated guess of when I could start. I would have added a 15 minute buffer to it because something always goes wrong with the estimate, and posted the new start time. I'd let the late player know the new start time and wish them luck. Not quite the same as waiting for a specific player, but maybe close enough for them to make it.

If, however everything was set and ready to start on time, I would be starting on time because you can always defend starting on time.

1.5(A)1 (start times) of the tour guidelines was clearly disregarded. if a player proactively requested the time to be changed, then a violation of 3.3.B may have also occured. (3.3.B mentions the willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play.)

no points should be awarded to Climo for this event. my god, it seems we have so much farther to go than i thought we did.



I'm sorry, but 1.5 could not have been violated because the round did not start until after he was there (the rule says nothing of the scheduled start time).

3.3.B would be a really tough call without proof that a specific delay was requested. It is merely good form to warn the TD that you are going to be late. You should always call if you know you will be late, even when you are on the bottom card.

Starting an event at the posted time would be a cool rule. I am sure it is a goal of every TD and a goal that very few actually make.

What if there was an accident that blocked a major interstate for half an hour and 25% of the players were going to be late ?

I see this as a marketing issue for the TD. Which option will draw the least flack from the players, the observers, and the peanut gallery. Any decision made after he learns of a late player will make someone unhappy and be considered unfair to one group or another.

Hard to say. If I was the TD, and I was already going to have a delayed start, I would have made an estimated guess of when I could start. I would have added a 15 minute buffer to it because something always goes wrong with the estimate, and posted the new start time. I'd let the late player know the new start time and wish them luck. Not quite the same as waiting for a specific player, but maybe close enough for them to make it.

If, however everything was set and ready to start on time, I would be starting on time because you can always defend starting on time.



There are circumstances that could push back a start, such as a large accident, flood, etc...Such an incident in my mind would have to affect a large number of people in order to delay play.

Personally, I started round 2 of the 1998 Mid-America Open 2 minutes late, and I'm still #$*&$! about it. Haven't started any other rounds late in the last 9 years.

Chap

This is what I think: Kenny is a "name player." I don't know how many name players we have, but when a name player is coming to your tournament there are a bunch of other players coming just to compete against him, or get whupped by him, or breathe the same air he's breathing. Like if a Wisconsin TD knows that Barry is coming to his tournament, he'll get the word out. It's good for attendance. It becomes part of the tournament value.



But that's exactly why you have to dole out the strokes to KC/Barry/etc, Bruce! Not only do those other players come out to see/compete/breathe with/against them, but if you start the Big Guns off with a few 7s then all those wannabes have a chance at finishing that first round ahead of the Top Dogs! THAT's what'll bring 'em back.

"Dude, you gotta come to the Melbourne Open. I was 3 strokes ahead of Kenny after the first round last year!"

:)

Denny -- don't compare of ball golfers to disc golfers -- even on your birthday!! Happy birthday.

The "integrity" that many pro ball golfers display has to do with the idea that they can be denied entry to competitions if they're caught cheating. A PDGA event is still mostly guys playing for each others' entry fees. When it's not you'll see the behaviors change. As you can tell by the lack of any consequence for allegedly starting a round close to 2 hours late no one's really going to get overly excited about it. When it's all said and done they'll be a lot more said here than done and that's appopriate given that if your running an event -- especially an A tier you're in charge. You've done all the work and have paid a handsome price to do so -- why shouldn't it be? All you TD's that walked away with a pocket of cash after running an event raise your hand . . . .. as usual no one's chiming in.

What -- is no one going to show up next year because they had to wait an hour and a half for Ken Climo to get his car fixed? Heck, of the 52 pro's in attendance I bet 40 of them know and like Ken. I bet 20 of them were happy it started late because they were still shaking off the effects of the party the night before.

Just guessing. I don't play in many tournaments -- I just hang around guys that do.

I missed my tee time at the Memorial because of a friend that wanted me to pick him up. Why didnt they wait for me. It wasnt my fault.

Did you call the TD?

The main issue with this is simple.....

I think the problem that everyone has (and that I share) is that it feels like special priveledge was given to a player based on his talent. I highly doubt if a guy who was getting ready to play his first tournament had called the TD and had the same thing happen that the TD would have no waited. If he wouldn't have, then what we have is a double standard.

One of things I focus on when running a tournament is consistency. No matter the talent experience or whether or not the person is a best friend or someone I do not speak too, I remain consistent with my decisions.

TD decisions should be made based on the circumstance rather than the person involved in it, and while we have no way of knowing whether he would have waited for someone not nearly as talented or known as Kenny, I highly doubt it would have happened.

I've had the privledge of playing with Kenny twice and I'm proud to say I know him cuz hes a first class guy, but I feel some of this kinda falls on him. If it were me, I would have the TD to not wait for me and when / if I showed up, I would tell the TD I will not play b/c I broke the rules in terms of missing a tee time.

LOL

Well put, Robert.

Also,

The "integrity" that many pro ball golfers display has to do with the idea that they can be denied entry to competitions if they're caught cheating.


No, unlike other sports where athletes juice, bet on games, and get arrested, golf has a history of relatively high honor. (I use the word "relatively" to head off the inevitable discussion board technique of pointing out the rare exception to "disprove" a statement.)

Not to mention, Kenny won!

I was @ Melbourne. Tired, jetlagged, etc. An extra hour of sleep would have been really nice. As a TD, I understand how it feels to penalize decent people for being late, it sucks. However, the action must be taken. There is really no gray area on this matter-The TD made a bad judgement call. As people, Kc and Rr are top notch. This should not be a witchhunt. This was my first tourney in the sunshine state and I couldn't have had a better time. Very enjoyable! The whole situation was surreal-when I heard the decision come down, I wasn't that shocked. Knowing what KC means to our sport and to the state of Florida and being on unfamiliar turf, I wasn't prepared to cause a ruckus. Thanks to all of the spotters and volunteers who made this tourney a success. Great people down there-don't miss this event.

I missed my tee time at the Memorial because of a friend that wanted me to pick him up. Why didnt they wait for me. It wasnt my fault.



Heck Robbie Bratten Missed two holes of his 1st round at the Memorial and took 8 penalty strokes for it!!! If the tourney would have waited for him he would have been in 5th all by himself and earned himself almost 600 dollars more!!!

If you must penalize one you must penalize all!!! Thats how I feel about this entire situation!!!

I missed my tee time at the Memorial because of a friend that wanted me to pick him up. Why didnt they wait for me. It wasnt my fault.



Heck Robbie Bratten Missed two holes of his 1st round at the Memorial and took 8 penalty strokes for it!!! If the tourney would have waited for him he would have been in 5th all by himself and earned himself almost 600 dollars more!!!

If you must penalize one you must penalize all!!! Thats how I feel about this entire situation!!!



Oh C'mon Robbie goes big and would have birdied hole 2. That means T4th. :D

Use of the term "witchhunt" implies the act of seeking and persecuting any perceived enemy, particularly when the search is conducted using extreme measures and with little regard to actual guilt or innocence.

I don't think that the testimony from several of the event participants and the reactions so far have qualified as such.

And given the testimony, the message will likely need to be communicated that the Tournament Director may have made, as has been previously described, a "compassionate but flawed decision."

The TD was in the tournament playing with the pro's. I talked to the Mashall that was at the course. I asked if I could tee off later if there was a group of only three. He caled Dave Gentry and he said no. I dont have a problem with what they did it is that they gave him special treatment.

Here in So Cal you should definitely call the TD and let them know you are running late. Most of our events are sold out with a waiting list. There are often three or four players waiting at tournament central for the chance to play. If you don't call, you might not have the opportunity to card 7's, because you might not even have a spot in the tourney anymore.



I once delayed a tournament start about 15 minutes when several out-of-town players got delayed in a local construction detour. (Even though I informed players how to avoid the construction beforehand.)

[All I know is that I still think the same of Kenny but not the PDGA and its system.
Aleksey



Aleksey:
Please enlighten us as to how "the PDGA and its system" could have avoided this.

Answer: a phone call from the TD to the office and/or to the Tour Manager wouldve worked - Ive put out a bunch of event fires sitting in front of my TV on a Sunday because the TD decided to contact HQ ... but we didnt hear from the Melbourne TD. An on-site Marshal at the MO also wouldve helped but these are not yet affordable for all A tiers, Marshals are sent to the Majors the NTs and to select early season A tiers where help is particularly needed in collecting a lot of memberships .... beyond that a bunch of d boarders think the Marshals program is a waste of $ anyways. Pretty hard for PDGA to win under those circumstances ...

In short, the compassionate but flawed decision to wait for Kenny was taken by an individual PDGA member/official/TD, and not by "the PDGA and its system."

Thanks

BDH @ HQ

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I was shocked to hear that this was even possible, to change a scheduled tee time for one person. This is where the PDGA is at fault. Also, I couldn�t believe that there is no clear rule that says that an event has to start on time unless something that effects majority of the field has happened, and in this case it was the opposite. Also, that the TD doesn�t have to get permission from the PDGA Marshall to make such a decision. What about now that they (the PDGA) know what has happened has any action been taken? Has anybody been contacted? Will there be a rule change made? So that this won't happen again. One last thing, can any first time TD run an A tier? Just asking in case I wanted to run an A tier, what kind of experience in running tournaments I would need to have.
The PDGA called this a PDGA A tier event, which means anybody running it represents the PDGA, so when he messes up the PDGA messes up because they let him run it.

If your flyers and postings state a 9am start...then you start at 9am...pretty simple :o

[All I know is that I still think the same of Kenny but not the PDGA and its system.
Aleksey



Aleksey:
Please enlighten us as to how "the PDGA and its system" could have avoided this.

Answer: a phone call from the TD to the office and/or to the Tour Manager wouldve worked - Ive put out a bunch of event fires sitting in front of my TV on a Sunday because the TD decided to contact HQ ... but we didnt hear from the Melbourne TD. An on-site Marshal at the MO also wouldve helped but these are not yet affordable for all A tiers, Marshals are sent to the Majors the NTs and to select early season A tiers where help is particularly needed in collecting a lot of memberships .... beyond that a bunch of d boarders think the Marshals program is a waste of $ anyways. Pretty hard for PDGA to win under those circumstances ...

In short, the compassionate but flawed decision to wait for Kenny was taken by an individual PDGA member/official/TD, and not by "the PDGA and its system."

Thanks

BDH @ HQ




I was shocked to hear that this was even possible, to change a scheduled tee time for one person. This is where the PDGA is at fault. Also, I couldn�t believe that there is no clear rule that says that an event has to start on time unless something that effects majority of the field has happened, and in this case it was the opposite. Also, that the TD doesn�t have to get permission from the PDGA Marshall to make such a decision. What about now that they (the PDGA) know what has happened has any action been taken? Has anybody been contacted? Will there be a rule change made? So that this won't happen again. One last thing, can any first time TD run an A tier? Just asking in case I wanted to run an A tier, what kind of experience in running tournaments I would need to have.
The PDGA called this a PDGA A tier event, which means anybody running it represents the PDGA, so when he messes up the PDGA messes up because they let him run it.

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I suspect that HAD the phone call been made to the PDGA, the delay WOULD NOT have happened....or at least that would have been the "answer". Im sure Ron figured it wasnt that big of a deal and he could handle it, after all he IS a former world champ....that doesnt make it right. :p

Rule 804.02A states: "At a scheduled time, scorecard(s) shall be distributed to the player listed first on each hole." However, no rule states what will happen to the TD if the event does not start at the scheduled time or reasons why the round can be delayed past the posted schedule. It looks like a new rule will have to be made for this. So we'll need to list legit reasons for delay, sort of like the list of items you can get casual relief from.

I think everyone with the first name of Ken should get special consideration! ;)



I couldn't AGREE MORE!!!!!!!

I don't think it should particularly be a witch hunt, but we should learn from it. Perhaps make a ruling for FUTURE cases.




Yeah, that's it Chuck. No sense crucifying the TD for making a judgment call, let alone one that is not a RULE. Hindsight is 30/30 in this case.

The Champ should have seen the injustice of this and told the TD to carry on as scheduled. We all saw it go down for Johnny Mac at this years WORLDS and it SUCKED for him why shouldn't we all be held upon the same rules?

I have only been stroked 3 times for something that went wrong on the course...and every time I had to turn myself in

Mid American Open, played course out of order
2005 Pro Worlds- played lie that was actually OB found out 3 days later
2007 Z-Boaz played wrong tee

all but the Mid American Open could have been on the hush and I could have got over without anyone knowing.

When I learned as a kid that game of golf, I was told that golf was an honorable game and you are supposed to play by the rules and if you violate the rules it is your responsibility to call yourself on them. At the Worlds in Iowa it was 5 rounds later when I found out I played from OB, I was in the top 10 at the time it would have been easy to say no-one knows, but how could I have lived with myself CHEATING the game.

As the 12 time World Champ and the KING of the game we love, he should have stepped up and taken the strokes like a man...........BUT if the TD is going to let you get over it's hard to say that anyone wouldn't accept the gift.

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I don't think it should particularly be a witch hunt, but we should learn from it. Perhaps make a ruling for FUTURE cases.



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Yeah, that's it Chuck. No sense crucifying the TD for making a judgment call, let alone one that is not a RULE. Hindsight is 30/30 in this case.



I didn't make that post.

I did. it only took you 5 pages to come to the same conclusion. :)

As I reread it, it sounded like I was being sarcastic, but I wasn't. I was agreeing with you that it's an addressable issue, no sense calling a TD on a judgment call that is not spelled out in the rules. Interpretations and judgment calls are always options when no defined procedure is listed.

TDs and other officials, in absence of precise rules guidance, should always strive to do what's fair. This TD did something patently unfair. That's all I'm saying. It shouldn't have happened.

Chap

Rule 804.02A states: "At a scheduled time, scorecard(s) shall be distributed to the player listed first on each hole." However, no rule states what will happen to the TD if the event does not start at the scheduled time or reasons why the round can be delayed past the posted schedule. It looks like a new rule will have to be made for this. So we'll need to list legit reasons for delay, sort of like the list of items you can get casual relief from.



However the rule could be written, there will be loopholes. It would be a pointless, unenforceable rule. The competition committee's time would be better spent elsewhere.

I think one action available to players who were there is to file a complaint with the PDGA Disciplinary Committee. Not sure how the DC would approach this but one possible outcome might be a fine that the TD has to make up the difference that players who cashed below the top lost as a result of finishing one place farther down. But if no one files any formal complaint, little if anything will likely happen.

THE POINT IS!!!!!!!!!
Is that MATTY O. brings it home, all other things aside...THAT IS MY DOG! YYYYYYEEEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHH!

40 is hottttt!!!!!

I think one action available to players who were there is to file a complaint with the PDGA Disciplinary Committee. Not sure how the DC would approach this but one possible outcome might be a fine that the TD has to make up the difference that players who cashed below the top lost as a result of finishing one place farther down. But if no one files any formal complaint, little if anything will likely happen.



I can't decide which is sadder: <ul type="square"> That none of the 57 other competitors who were inconvenienced by the delay, nor the top ten Open competitors who would have likely beaten Climo had he taken the penalty strokes he was supposed to, have filed a complaint with the PDGA Tour Manager or Disciplinary Committtee. [/list]OR
<ul type="square"> That failing such an official complaint from one of the event participants, and despite being fully aware of the incident and the number of people on this message board indicating their dissatisfaction, including the Executive Director who characterized the TD decision as flawed, the PDGA would choose to take no action. [/list]

I got into a car accident on the way to a round during Am Worlds 2002 in Miami and the TD didn't wait for me. No action on the part of the PDGA sets a horrible precedent and sends a message to every Tournament Director across the world that depending on the player, rules don't apply.

Coincidently, the champ got into a car wreck on the way to the GCC....The VW saved him any injury but had he not been turned towards the screeching tires he would have sustained serious injury. The door was pushed in several inches where his throwing shoulder would have been...

Climo needs a chauffer. :)

he had one....

I was at the tourney. And what happened was, on the players program we were scheduled to tee off at 10am on Saturday morning. Around 8am that morning, Billy Seaman who I was rooming with got a call from Kenny saying he had a car breakdown and was not going to make it on time unless some one would pick him up and take him to Melbourne, at this time he was 1 hour and 30 minutes away, maybe a little bit more, we didn't have enough time to drive there and get back on time so we didn't do it. Comes 10am around and I get word that we are not starting until Kenny gets to the park. A friend has left Clearwater and is picking him up and taking him to Melbourne. It was bout 10am when I heard of this news (and Kenny was about 1 hour away fro the course). At this point I and some other players began to talk to Ron Russell (who was running the tournament) Ron said that weren't going to start at 10am anyway and that we were going to start at 10:30am so we might as well wait till 11am since Kenny has been to this tourney 16 times, we are going to wait for him.
Here is what I think about it.
First, I have a lot of respect for Kenny, if not for him I would not be a good player and might not be playing at all. He is the greatest player the sport has ever seen and he is a friend.
But, Kenny is a PDGA member like me and if I was running late would they wait for me, or even better are there rules we PDGA members abide by or is it simply up to the tournament director to create his own rules and to change them on the spot if he/she pleases. We all run into bad luck and we have to do our best and make it through those times, and Kenny did his best to try to make it on time and he didn�t but it didn�t matter. Just because you are the best player ever doesn't mean you can�t be late sometimes, it happens to all of us, most of us usually take 7s when it happens. I just want all of us to be treated equally and fairly and what happened on Saturday at Melbourne, FL shows me that we as a sport are a long way from that, we are not yet a professional sport. And we definitely don't play by the same rules; they just don't apply to some of us (the same way).
I had to say this since nobody else has. Kenny is a friend and a great guy, but how would he feel if they waited on John McCray at Worlds and held the whole show so he could make it on time.
There were a lot of players unhappy with this decision in all divisions of play, I don't know why they don't speak up, maybe they don't post, and maybe they are worried about what Kenny thinks. All I know is that I still think the same of Kenny but not the PDGA and its system.
Aleksey



Seems like a little of this and a little of that went wrong in Melbourne. I see some favoritism on the TD's part, and IF KC asked for the delayed start, then that's wrong too.

One thing Boobs hit on is true for sure. We have a looooooooooooong way to go if we want to be accepted as a PROFESSIONAL sport.

Congrats to Matt Orum for a huge win against some great players!!