Is it time to add a rule limiting what can be dyed onto a disc? I'm not just talking about dye jobs with 420 or pot references on them. If we are trying to clean up the look of our players at major events and have them wear collard shirts and in general be more professional why are we allowed to throw discs in sanctioned play that have illegally reproduced trademark images on them? how do you think a potential sponsor would fill if they see their creation on a disc being thrown around? would they still donate money to help our sport grow? i dont think so.

look at eBay right now. you can find dyed discs with sports teams logos, family guy and other cartoon characters, band album art, not to mention all the images of illegal substances.

i just want to see what everyone else's opinion is about dyed discs. should there be a rule against using discs with drug references and reproduced trademarked images?

Great thread Max.

Very interesting point about copyright law with the images found on discs.

I don't think it would be something the PDGA could legislate such as checking the discs of all players before each round. Weights would also need to be checked if you go to that extenet. However, it might be considered a courtesy violation that other players in a group could call if it's seen to be illegal.

Chuck,

It could be handles the same way it is now. If a player questions the legality of a disc it is brought to the attention of the TD.

: ) :

I think we have bigger fish to fry if we are going to get hot and bothered over compliance issues. The NFL, United Features Syndicate, Disney, et al., have their lawyers enforcing their trademark rights as they see fit. Also it is not a clear violation since the dyed disc is not mass produced and is arguably a work of art.

Of course, I'm part of the problem! :D

Yet another unbiased poll

Dress codes could easily be extended to cover all of a player's equipment. This would be fine for Majors/NT's, but at lower-tier events it's a bit much.

Last I heard we're still trying to grow the sport, not chase people away with needless rules

Last I heard we're still trying to grow the sport, not chase people away with needless rules



So we should chase away money sponsors, and encourage con artists and thieves to come out?

Last I heard we're still trying to grow the sport, not chase people away with needless rules



So we should chase away money sponsors, and encourage con artists and thieves to come out?

Absolutely. Encourage everyone to come out. When the professional sports franchises show up, if they don't like what the con artists and theives are doing, next time they'll bring their lawyers.

Sheesh.

Give me a break. Like any professional sport/team gives a crap about dyed discs. The same goes for big corporate, they simply don't care. Why should they? Copyright infringement on a disc? As long as they are not mass produced I don't see a problem.

I do agree that some "dye guys" create inappropriate dye jobs and should not be allowed during a large event.

It would be a silly situation for the TD or PDGA Marshal to have to rifle through each player's bag and possibly temporarily confiscate discs.
I believe it will have to come down to the individual player to be responsible for appearing professional in terms of what s/he throws during sanctioned rounds.

If a tourning pro started throwing discs with [subjectively] highly offensive artwork on them, then Innova or Discraft would have a right to say "wait a minute". I see it as an individual sponsorship level issue, as well as common sense.

Of course, if the event is a D-Tier run by a church group, then pot leaves and D-cups might not fly. :D

It doesn't matter of the design is mass produced or not - if it's a copyrighted or trademarked design, then you can't replicate it without permission.

That said, it's up to the creator and the buyer if they want to make/purchase discs with those pictures. We do lots of things that are illegal, but many are not considered a valuable use of resources to track down and/or prosecute.

As for the illegal substances portrayed on discs - it's just a matter of taste. Me, I don't care for it. I'd prefer it not be so associated with disc golf, but that's just my opinion and I don't buy discs with that artwork. If you like it... go right ahead.

The PDGA's role in enforcement is stretching it though as it's not their job to enforce copyright/trademark infringement. As long as they're not producing the equipment, it's a player issue.

That said, it's up to the creator and the buyer if they want to make/purchase discs with those pictures. We do lots of things that are illegal, but many are not considered a valuable use of resources to track down and/or prosecute.





Hit the nail on the head.

It's the PDGA's responsibility to members to produce a Professional environment. I dont think I ever said they have to enforce what a player can throw. I said they should enforce what a player can throw in a PDGA sanctioned event. If a player questions the legality of your disc it should be brought to the TDs attention.

: ) :

I do not think this is an issue for the PDGA to enforce. However, it does concern me.

Do people honestly think it is OK to put a sports franchise logo, Disney character or Grateful Dead artwork on a disc simply because the NFL, Disney or Grateful Dead haven't told them to stop? IMHO, I think it is quite alright to dye your own disc for your own use/pleasure, but once you start selling these to others for a profit, that crosses the line.

People are effectively saying it is OK to make a profit using copywrited designs until charged with copywrite infringement. That is like saying: "It is OK for me to take your car for a joyride as long as I don't get caught because you can afford the gas and the wear and tear." "It is just a short trip, so it is not that illegal."

Somehow people seem to think there is a difference between intellectual property and material property. Property is property and if you take someone else's property without permission, it is theft.

Somehow people seem to think there is a difference between intellectual property and material property. Property is property and if you take someone else's property without permission, it is theft.



Word!

This conversation makes me want to download music......illegally.

At the point where disc golf is getting main stream media exposure I could understand limiting offensive/controversial images from discs.

I don't see the PDGA prohibiting a disc just because it is of a copyrighted image. If they did that they would also have to get everyone who is wearing knockoff sunglasses, watches, etc... and where do you draw the line?

naked disc golfers with nude discs......problem solved

I do not think this is an issue for the PDGA to enforce. However, it does concern me.

Do people honestly think it is OK to put a sports franchise logo, Disney character or Grateful Dead artwork on a disc simply because the NFL, Disney or Grateful Dead haven't told them to stop? IMHO, I think it is quite alright to dye your own disc for your own use/pleasure, but once you start selling these to others for a profit, that crosses the line.

People are effectively saying it is OK to make a profit using copywrited designs until charged with copywrite infringement. That is like saying: "It is OK for me to take your car for a joyride as long as I don't get caught because you can afford the gas and the wear and tear." "It is just a short trip, so it is not that illegal."

Somehow people seem to think there is a difference between intellectual property and material property. Property is property and if you take someone else's property without permission, it is theft.



The PDGA, let alone a TD, has no ability to determine if a copyright/trademark has been violated. Period. Ever.

The only copyright/trademark the PDGA could enforce would be their own. Any debate regarding questioning the legality of a dye job on a disc is just sound and fury.

It would be like telling a bar they can't have glasses with beer logos unless they know it was produced by a company that had the legal right to use the logo. There is no obligation for the purchaser of a product to research and enforce copyright law.

You raise an interesting point and then start a poll that is not a poll at all but a ratification of your position. yes, no etc might be interesting. I'm not voting because none of the choices you listed make any sense to me. Perhaps a deletion of the editorial comments would help.

That being said, if you have a disc with a professional sports team, Disney Character, rock band logo etc, how do you know its not legit. Some of the above will license their intellectual property for t shirts, discs etc. The PDGA should NOT be enforcing this. I agree that intellectual property owners are entitled to their property. However, one of the posters above noted that many of these companys troll the web and are very aggresive about protecting their right. Bully for them. I agree that unlicensed property should not be dyed onto discs. I guess PDGA could question a vender who is at a sanctioned event. However, I think its silly to trifle with the players and to make already overworked TD's have one more task.

As far as drug, bad behavior or other "offensive" items- I have a real big problem with giving anybody a badge to regulate this. I suspect we would all be offended if a swastika or some other overtly offensive racial ephitet, or some type of pornographic image were put on a disc. That being said, I still fee its the fool's right to throw that disc. he or she should expect to be treated as he/she deserves. However, its not for PDGA or the TD at a C tier to regulate this.

If NT tournaments want to be more restrictive, let them be. However, the rest of the tournaments are for the masses. Lets give them reason to show up and not a reason to say, "Screw you guys, I'm taking my ripped off Eric Cartman image disc and going home!"

If NT tournaments want to be more restrictive, let them be. However, the rest of the tournaments are for the masses. Lets give them reason to show up and not a reason to say, "Screw you guys, I'm taking my ripped off Eric Cartman image disc and going home!"



I agree nothing at the TD-level could or should be done at local tournaments, but the PDGA should crack down on illegal substance/pornographic images at NT tournaments. This would be one less barrier disc golf would have to overcome to get more media attention. It would be nice for the sport to be aired on ESPN 2 right after the paintball semifinals.

If something could be done at the local level, this could attract more people to the sport and participation in tournaments. It seems inappropriate dye-jobs would push away more people than it attracts. I don't know of anyone picking up the game because they saw a joint sitting in between a pair of double D's on a disc.

As for the copyright issue, I don't think enough money is changing hands for Disney, or Coke, or the NCAA to pay their $400/hr lawyers to take action. That is an issue that would be way down the road as long as the sport continues to grow.

IMHO, it's no more up to the PDGA to address intellectual property laws regarding images on discs in play than it is up to an airline to ensure that people aren't reading illegally copied books on long flights.

The only possible reason the PDGA should get involved might - and this is stretching - be if there was some way that the existence of such discs reflected poorly on the PDGA's public image. That's unlikely.

There are lots of copyright rules and laws already, and a system of enforcement that is completely extraneous to the PDGA.

I repeat......

I think we should all be more concerned about the act of smoking pot during tourneys than we should be about seeing a disc with a pot leaf on it. I don't care if you get rid of the five pornographic or drug related artwork discs that may or may not be flying around during any given sanctioned event. It is the fourty people who are smoking bowls between every fifth hole that need to be addressed. To me, that is a major barrier that needs to be broken down before the sport will ever gain any major sponsorship or TV coverage.

People think that it is not prevalent, but it is, and as far as I know, it is still illegal in most if not all states to smoke pot.

I just think priority wise, it would make more sense to crack down on the pot smokers and worry about the "cool art" disc throwers at a later date.

I could repond in two words but I'd get banned.

So read up on the Fair Use Doctrine. Remember Andy Warhol and the Campbell's Soup cans? He's still doing stuff like that. Maybe he's making a complex statement about marketing, design and art. Maybe he's just painting a Campbell's Soup can. Either way, it is an original work of art, does not disparage the product, does not lead to confusion as to ownership, etc. He's not breaking any laws.

The TDs of the PDGA have no way of knowing what's fair use in an artistic work and what is an unlawful use of another's trademark. Even the TDs who are lawyers couldn't tell you that.

You could start here and see that it is not a clear cut thing. http://www.nyfa.org/level3.asp?id=463&fid=6&sid=17

I could repond in two words but I'd get banned.



Ahem, that's "suspended," thank you. ;)

I ripped off my avatar artwork from a person who ripped it off an ancient Chinese tomb. Trademark, common domain, fair use? I don't know. These are not things the PDGA could enforce if it wanted to.

snip...

Remember Andy Warhol and the Campbell's Soup cans? He's still doing stuff like that.



Yeah, from the GRAVE! He's been dead for years. It was in all the papers.

appropriation is only protected from copyright infringement in an artwork if the aesthetic quality is the act of appropritating. simply, copying is beautiful. I doubt if any disc dyes were made in that regard, they were copied because of the design, not for the act of copying itself. Also, if the copied design originated within the disc golf market it could definitely be illegal because of market interference. not that the PDGA should have anything to do with banning it

Chuck,

It could be handles the same way it is now. If a player questions the legality of a disc it is brought to the attention of the TD.

: ) :



This would require the TD to be an expert in copyright law and check to see if a license had been issued for the alledgedly illegal use of the image.

The PDGA is not the copyright police. Let the law go after the manufacturer that reaps profits from illegal use of copyrighted images.

Somehow people seem to think there is a difference between intellectual property and material property. Property is property and if you take someone else's property without permission, it is theft.



I actually had an acquaintance tell me that he copied my band's CD so his friend could have a copy. I told him that was illegal and he didn't seem to care, probably because he knew I wasn't going to bother prosecuting him.

This is a good example of how rampant stupidity and ignorance is in our society today. People are too self-centered to care if their actions hurt others.

The only situation I can think of where the TD would absolutely have the right to declare such a disc illegal was if they had personal knowledge that the image was used without benefit of a license to do so. Even so, it's a stretch of the PDGA rules to do that because the disc would likely otherwise be legal under PDGA rules.

I think we should all be more concerned about the act of smoking pot during tourneys than we should be about seeing a disc with a pot leaf on it. I don't care if you get rid of the five pornographic or drug related artwork discs that may or may not be flying around during any given sanctioned event. It is the fourty people who are smoking bowls between every fifth hole that need to be addressed. To me, that is a major barrier that needs to be broken down before the sport will ever gain any major sponsorship or TV coverage.

People think that it is not prevalent, but it is, and as far as I know, it is still illegal in most if not all states to smoke pot.

I just think priority wise, it would make more sense to crack down on the pot smokers and worry about the "cool art" disc throwers at a later date.



This is such a mis-directed approach.

I am NOT saying that this does not happen at sanctioned tournaments.

I AM saying that disc golf gets this reputation from the casual play by some PDGA and some non-members alike. The reputation does NOT come from the few players who smoke during sanctioned play since they try hard to hide it from anyone who would get them in trouble. There are hundreds of times more rounds played in non-sanctioned conditions where this behavior is vastly more likely to be observed.

Even if our events were 100% squeaky clean in all regards, that would do very little to change DG's reputation.

Self-righteous full disclosure :eek: : I have never smoked pot. I just try to be a realist. :)

This is very true, but as long as it is not strictly enforced in tournament play, it will not be even considered at other times.

It's got to start with the sanctioned events.
It has to move to the local minis as an important thing.
Players need to realize it's because cleaning up the sport allows kids to get involved, and getting kids involved is what can turn this sport around.

How many parents spend way too much time and money making sure that their kids have the things they need to compete in their sport of choice ? How much park land is leveled and truned into sports fields at the demand of those same parents. How much cheaper, easier, and environmentally friendly would it be to be putting in disc golf courses instead ?

This is very true, but as long as it is not strictly enforced in tournament play, it will not be even considered at other times.

It's got to start with the sanctioned events.
It has to move to the local minis as an important thing.
Players need to realize it's because cleaning up the sport allows kids to get involved, and getting kids involved is what can turn this sport around.

How many parents spend way too much time and money making sure that their kids have the things they need to compete in their sport of choice ? How much park land is leveled and truned into sports fields at the demand of those same parents. How much cheaper, easier, and environmentally friendly would it be to be putting in disc golf courses instead ?



I agree very much. When I started playing years ago I thought of disc golf as my own personal party activity. Now that I have developed a real passion for the sport my views and habits have changed considerably. Kids are the future of the sport. Not just hippie kids that have been playing along with their parents since infancy and are used to seeing certain activities, but kids with parents who won't let their children hang out where they know illegal activities occur. This doesn't mean Joe Stoner shouldn't be welcome playing our sport, he just needs to understand that open use is not acceptable, and that kids on the course are not just an inconveniece.

When I lived in MI I mentored a 13 year old boy and taught him the game. I encouraged him to join our local league and he started playing every week. At first other members of our league were a bit shaken at the idea of a kid being in their group some weeks. The real issue was avaded as people complained to league organizers about the kid's courtesy and rule compliance. As time went on, more and more people saw how good the kid was getting and started to accept the fact that on some weeks they would have to take care of there personal business before or after their round. In the long run the kid was welcomed and people changed their attitudes. A few individuals still tried their best to avoid the kid's group, but most people ended up enjoying watching the kid play (he could throw almost 400' when I moved away).

This is very true, but as long as it is not strictly enforced in tournament play, it will not be even considered at other times.

It's got to start with the sanctioned events.
It has to move to the local minis as an important thing.
Players need to realize it's because cleaning up the sport allows kids to get involved, and getting kids involved is what can turn this sport around.

How many parents spend way too much time and money making sure that their kids have the things they need to compete in their sport of choice ? How much park land is leveled and truned into sports fields at the demand of those same parents. How much cheaper, easier, and environmentally friendly would it be to be putting in disc golf courses instead ?



I agree very much. When I started playing years ago I thought of disc golf as my own personal party activity. Now that I have developed a real passion for the sport my views and habits have changed considerably. Kids are the future of the sport. Not just hippie kids that have been playing along with their parents since infancy and are used to seeing certain activities, but kids with parents who won't let their children hang out where they know illegal activities occur. This doesn't mean Joe Stoner shouldn't be welcome playing our sport, he just needs to understand that open use is not acceptable, and that kids on the course are not just an inconveniece.

When I lived in MI I mentored a 13 year old boy and taught him the game. I encouraged him to join our local league and he started playing every week. At first other members of our league were a bit shaken at the idea of a kid being in their group some weeks. The real issue was avaded as people complained to league organizers about the kid's courtesy and rule compliance. As time went on, more and more people saw how good the kid was getting and started to accept the fact that on some weeks they would have to take care of there personal business before or after their round. In the long run the kid was welcomed and people changed their attitudes. A few individuals still tried their best to avoid the kid's group, but most people ended up enjoying watching the kid play (he could throw almost 400' when I moved away).



All of the above has been explored to mind numbingly endless excess in other threads. All that is stated above is true. However, thread drift is getting to the point where I wonder whether the posters are stoned.

As I recall it, the thread is essentially: Should PDGA police disc dye jobs?

I say no. My "no" takes no issue at all pro or con on issues of piracy, theft, good taste, drug use, libel etc. I simply think this is a bad place to try to regulate such things unless the PDGA wants to make a rule saying NO DYE JOBS OF ANY KIND WHATSOEVER. I kinda like seeing colored discs flying. That far outweighs the handful of tacky, insensitive or whatever [insert negative connotation here] discs I occassionally see. The artists are getting good. I just put my Dr. Dyed Orc in a pond and will make a point to get Joe to replace it with one of his original and tasteful designs.

This is an interesting topic.

Terry wrote: "The only possible reason the PDGA should get involved might - and this is stretching - be if there was some way that the existence of such discs reflected poorly on the PDGA's public image. That's unlikely."

I would argue that--for the majority of people (public, not golfers)--seeing discs with artwork that depicts marijuana or other illegal substances (or other pictures deemed--in general--unseemly) will not reflect positively on the PDGA. I think equipment used by major sports (e.g., footballs, bats, soccer balls, etc.) is very strictly regulated (for a variety of reasons).

For major DG events, it is unlikely that the players that would be filmed (top 2% of tour) are going to have such gear visible. And they are rapidly becoming savvy about how to present themselves and promote the sport.

As someone else pointed out, it's the other 99% of exposure the sport gets--which is casual play. And almost everyone I talk to and even remotely knows something about disc golf has the same--incorrect--image of the "sport": modern hippies, stoners, and beer drinkers out cruising around in a local park, winging frisbees at weird contraptions. We're a step above the hacky sack crowd and one below the skateboarders.

Not sure how we move away from that perception, because in the long run, it will not help growth in terms of the media and sponsors. And it is not conducive to bringing kids into the fold. It's a bummer that I have to talk to my 10 yr old son about (other players') poor language, alcohol consumption, and even drug use when we hit the course together. It would be great if the two of us could just enjoy the day without such heavy topics.

Back on topic: discs could be easily checked during NT events, or any with media coverage. Yes it will be slow, but no different than when I had to get my shot put and discus weighed prior to a big meet. I would hope that personal responsibility would obviate the need for such actions, but history indicates otherwise.

Cheers,
Steve

The issue of intellectual property and copyright aside I think this is an interesting subject.

I have seen swastikas and racial epitatphs dyed on discs and thrown out on the course. If the phrase "F**k you N****r" is dyed on the disc could this constitute a courtesy violation when it is thrown or displayed? Does it matter that the objectionable phrase is printed on something versus being spoken? If I handed out a piece of paper to each person on the card with this phrase would that be a violation of PDGA rules? How about a patch stitched onto a bag?

I am very uncomfortable with such views and language. I would not like to participate in a round with a person who constantly communicated such language. Could I ask to be placed on another card?

This is an interesting topic.

Terry wrote: "The only possible reason the PDGA should get involved might - and this is stretching - be if there was some way that the existence of such discs reflected poorly on the PDGA's public image. That's unlikely."

I would argue that--for the majority of people (public, not golfers)--seeing discs with artwork that depicts marijuana or other illegal substances (or other pictures deemed--in general--unseemly) will not reflect positively on the PDGA. I think equipment used by major sports (e.g., footballs, bats, soccer balls, etc.) is very strictly regulated (for a variety of reasons).

For major DG events, it is unlikely that the players that would be filmed (top 2% of tour) are going to have such gear visible. And they are rapidly becoming savvy about how to present themselves and promote the sport.

As someone else pointed out, it's the other 99% of exposure the sport gets--which is casual play. And almost everyone I talk to and even remotely knows something about disc golf has the same--incorrect--image of the "sport": modern hippies, stoners, and beer drinkers out cruising around in a local park, winging frisbees at weird contraptions. We're a step above the hacky sack crowd and one below the skateboarders.

Not sure how we move away from that perception, because in the long run, it will not help growth in terms of the media and sponsors. And it is not conducive to bringing kids into the fold. It's a bummer that I have to talk to my 10 yr old son about (other players') poor language, alcohol consumption, and even drug use when we hit the course together. It would be great if the two of us could just enjoy the day without such heavy topics.

Back on topic: discs could be easily checked during NT events, or any with media coverage. Yes it will be slow, but no different than when I had to get my shot put and discus weighed prior to a big meet. I would hope that personal responsibility would obviate the need for such actions, but history indicates otherwise.

Cheers,
Steve



/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The issue of intellectual property and copyright aside I think this is an interesting subject.

I have seen swastikas and racial epitatphs dyed on discs and thrown out on the course. If the phrase "F**k you N****r" is dyed on the disc could this constitute a courtesy violation when it is thrown or displayed? Does it matter that the objectionable phrase is printed on something versus being spoken? If I handed out a piece of paper to each person on the card with this phrase would that be a violation of PDGA rules? How about a patch stitched onto a bag?

I am very uncomfortable with such views and language. I would not like to participate in a round with a person who constantly communicated such language. Could I ask to be placed on another card?



I agree. If it's too questionable , those disc's or clothes should not be worn or publicly shown for the media. It could be a bad reflection of the tournament and sponsors when filmed or photographed.

The issue of intellectual property and copyright aside I think this is an interesting subject.

I have seen swastikas and racial epitatphs dyed on discs and thrown out on the course. If the phrase "F**k you N****r" is dyed on the disc could this constitute a courtesy violation when it is thrown or displayed? Does it matter that the objectionable phrase is printed on something versus being spoken? If I handed out a piece of paper to each person on the card with this phrase would that be a violation of PDGA rules? How about a patch stitched onto a bag?

I am very uncomfortable with such views and language. I would not like to participate in a round with a person who constantly communicated such language. Could I ask to be placed on another card?



I agree. If it's too questionable , those disc's or clothes should not be worn or publicly shown for the media. It could be a bad reflection of the tournament and sponsors when filmed or photographed.



This could be handled by directing the owner of such material to put it away for the day or be DQ'd under 804.05A1 - overt rudeness to anyone present.

[QUOTE]
[QUOTE]


I have seen swastikas and racial epitatphs dyed on discs and thrown out on the course. If the phrase "F**k you N****r" is dyed on the disc could this constitute a courtesy violation when it is thrown or displayed?



Someone actually had those statements dyed on there disc? There is a big difference between a pot leaf and a swastika or the above dyed statement. Wow!!! If I saw something like that I'm not sure what I would do. Especially, if it was in tourny play. I assure you, that individual would definetly be finding a different card to play on. That is disgusting and intolerable :mad:

No trashy stuff either.

Or Degrading stuff about the Sport.

You raise an interesting point and then start a poll that is not a poll at all but a ratification of your position.



I agree. Apparently having a poll with clearly-worded, non-biased choices is simply too much to ask around here.


sleepy

I'd be more inclined to address the dye jobs with 420 or pot references on them. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with them in handicaps and informal events. 804.05 (4) states, "activities which are in violation of the law....". Here we are talking about sanctioned events. If we want our sport, prize money and exposure to grow we as a group should do our utmost to make it presentable to the mainstream public.
Last weekend I played a tournament here in Florida. My 13 year old caddied and one of our foursome had a dyed "leaf" Very pretty disc but I didn't like explaining it to my 13 year old. In addition, the TD got the local newspaper out taking pictures. Is that the type of picture we want in the newspapers?