ESP XL's!!!!

Oh my....look what UPS brought me today!!!! Somebody pinch me please. Am i awake? :D

<font color="green"> </font> ENVY ENVY!!!!!!!! <font color="black"> </font> Sweet! Now I know it's just a matter of time.

Where & how did you get an ESP XL? I want one or four....so bad!

Simple, as long as you have a player rating of 1000 and are sponsored, the boxes of sweet plastic magically appear on your doorstep! ;)

Being grotesquely obese and shaking what your momma gave you might help too.

No, seriously, i haven't had time to test them yet. Looks like i'll be able to on Sat. My 2 cents will follow.

Thank you Discraft for what i know will be a great mold in ESP plastic!

does the xl compare at all to a innova TL?

An XL would be more comparable to a really beat TL. It is more along the lines of Innova's Leopard.

I've got a Z XL in my bag right now that I use for the same thing I use to use the TL for. I think that an Xpress is closer to a leopard than the XL.

does the xl compare at all to a innova TL?



The XL is my TL...it's just a little bit slower. Same results for me. Ching. :D

I thought thats what the XS was going to do for me. But it is over stable compared to the innova KC Cheetah. I think the XS has way more glide though! I just ordered a ESP Comet I hope this fits the bill! Man I am hooked on Discraft! Never met a disc I have not liked yet! I have removed every piece of Innova from the back except my aviar-X putter. Great job Discraft.

Man I am hooked on Discraft! Never met a disc I have not liked yet! I have removed every piece of Innova from the back except my aviar-X putter. Great job Discraft.


I find it ironic that you've removed every Innova disc from your bag except for the most important disc in your bag, which is still Innova. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

that's because he hasn't tried the soft Challenger yet. :D

I have used the magnet before and when I get the chance I will probable replace the Aviar-X with a soft magnet!

Threw the ESP XL for the first time this morning... SWEET (only a few times though). I'll give a full review later today or tomorrow.

The ESP Meteor has also landed.

Any more ESP XL reviews?

I had a little time to play with it this morning.

It is an XL for sure. Throw it high let it flip and ride the anhyzer. Less stable then the Z and more over stable then the X. It flies like a perfectly worn Z right out of the Box.

The Meteor was a surprise also. Not nearly as flippy as the Ace Race versions.

We had 30 mph winds in DFW on Sat. Not exactly ideal conditions to test anything. I'll post my 2 cents soon.

Any idea when the Meteor will be available to the general public? You have any more of those Ace Racers left in a box somewhere, Jim?

I would bet the Meteor will be released before to long. It had the First Run stamp on it. The XL's had the custom proto stamp.

I do have 1 Ace Race Meteor, PM me if you are interested.


Now back to the thread.

The ESP XL is exactly what I was looking for in an XL. Flies like a worn Z XL. I cannot wait to throw this puppy a few more times. Get to really know it.


Smitty

I had the same problem My-Hero did. I went out to do an official test on Sunday afternoon and the wind was out of control... Stability wise I could tell that it was definitely more stable than an Avenger SS but less stable than the ESP surge I was throwing alongside it.

Any idea when the Meteor will be available to the general public? You have any more of those Ace Racers left in a box somewhere, Jim?



You have a PM.

I had the same problem My-Hero did. I went out to do an official test on Sunday afternoon and the wind was out of control... Stability wise I could tell that it was definitely more stable than an Avenger SS but less stable than the ESP surge I was throwing alongside it.



It is for sure more stable then the SS.

The only problem I see with the disc, is that it is going to take up more space in my bag. :cool:

How flippy is the Avenger SS? Is it like a fast Express or something?

No, less stable than that. It is very close to a star sidewinder in stability. I would say it is a touch more overstable than that but not much.

How flippy is the Avenger SS? Is it like a fast Express or something?



It isn't nearly as flippys as an Express. It is a tad more stable then the XS. It is a killer roller disc. It is also great for tall long anhyzers.

Spent enough time with the XL in ESP plastic to say "It's totally dreamy!" Sandalman played catcher/punt returner, so he may have his own review.

No wind, no clouds, just a bluebird day....FOR ME, it flew more overstable than the elite X-XL's, and less overstable than the Z-XL's. Had the perfect mixture of speed, glide, and grippiness. A winner for sure. Now, what am i going to do with all of my new, but old XL's? :D

2nd everything said about the new ESP XL's. Put one in my bag as soon as they came out and have driven with it most of the time ever since.

I agree with everything you say Hero!

I cannot wait to spend a little more time with mine. The Protos are saaaaawwwwweeeeeeet looking also. I love that stamp.

I agree with everything you say Hero!

I cannot wait to spend a little more time with mine. The Protos are saaaaawwwwweeeeeeet looking also. I love that stamp.



I got to throw mine today as well!!! I love them more than my Z XLs..........Id have to say they are going to become my go to drivers on wooded courses!!!

I also really like the way the ESP Meteor is flying!!! On a nice smooth shot it flys DEAD STRAIGHT and with a little more power its a GREAT turnover disc right out of the box!!!

Thanks again Discraft!!!

I finally threw this disc this weekend. WOW. Thrown hard this disc will stand up and go. MUST throw flat.

Spent enough time with the XL in ESP plastic to say "It's totally dreamy!" Sandalman played catcher/punt returner, so he may have his own review.

No wind, no clouds, just a bluebird day....FOR ME, it flew more overstable than the elite X-XL's, and less overstable than the Z-XL's. Had the perfect mixture of speed, glide, and grippiness. A winner for sure. Now, what am i going to do with all of my new, but old XL's? :D



Where can I get an ESP XL in Dallas?

Anybody got any?

The ESP XL has been in my bag for a dozen rounds or so and I really like it. It is one of the straightest drivers I've ever thrown and it flies that way very consistantly. It is awesome for technical/wooded shots that you would have to throw your midrange too hard and a faster driver too fast...I throw it with a little hyzer and it flips flat and doesn't do anything else but fly perfectly straight, no turn or fade. I haven't thrown a lot of XLs in the past to compare it to, but I did buy 3 different Z XLs recently and I can say that I like the ESP much better than any of them. The dome feels much closer to the pro D XL (which is fairly flat) than the often extremely domey X and Z versions. It feels perfect in my hand and I have confindence throwing this disc already at a variety of speeds. Amazing disc in ESP plastic, period.

They have a bunch of the ESP stuff on Ebay (including XL's) if your willing to pay for it...

Spent enough time with the XL in ESP plastic to say "It's totally dreamy!" Sandalman played catcher/punt returner, so he may have his own review.

No wind, no clouds, just a bluebird day....FOR ME, it flew more overstable than the elite X-XL's, and less overstable than the Z-XL's. Had the perfect mixture of speed, glide, and grippiness. A winner for sure. Now, what am i going to do with all of my new, but old XL's? :D



Where can I get an ESP XL in Dallas?

Anybody got any?



I have some. I work in Lewisville if you want to meet this week for lunch.

Cool.

I work in Hurst and live in Richardson. I have no idea how we could hook up.

If discspeed says the XL is for real, you might want to check it out.

I picked up an ESP Tracker. Hmmmm...

It is kind of like a Star Teebird with no glide. Only marginally shorter than a Surge. It has tons of low speed fade.

Not horrible, but not "better" than a Teebird. If I were a Discraft sponsored player I would throw the Tracker instead of the Star Teebird (if I had too).

Would be a lot better with some dome like the new Surges.

I picked up an ESP Tracker. Hmmmm...

It is kind of like a Star Teebird with no glide. Only marginally shorter than a Surge. It has tons of low speed fade.

Not horrible, but not "better" than a Teebird. If I were a Discraft sponsored player I would throw the Tracker instead of the Star Teebird (if I had too).

Would be a lot better with some dome like the new Surges.



I wanted to like the Tracker, I tried to like the Tracker, but...it just does not fit in my lineup. Maybe throwing it with the Teebird in mind was a mistake, because it just comes up short in every way. It is slightly faster than a Teebird, but it turns over easier while at the same time having significantly more low speed fade. The Tracker's (ESP &amp; Z) transition from a nose down/turned over flight to flat flight and fade is not smooth or predictable like a Teebird or even an Avenger. If I threw the Tracker with anything more than a very slight hyzer angle it would burn left quickly with very little glide. On the same throw a Star Teebird would be longer and straighter. I guess I would compare it to a Champion Eagle, another disc that many people like but simply has never fit into my game.

I've been playing all Discraft for a month now and I feel comfortable without my Teebirds (no thanks to the Tracker :D). The ESP XL, the Z Avenger, and once in a while my Z Wasp all pick up the slack where I would have thrown Teebirds in the past. I almost feel like the Teebird was a crutch for me and it feels really good learning other discs and seeing their potential beyond the Teebird. I don't think the Teebird is necessarily the best disc for a lot of shots, it just CAN do about any shot. Versatility and predictability are it's strong suits. Now that I'm throwing the ESP XL though it seems silly that I used to consider the Teebird my straight driver.

Now that I'm throwing the ESP XL though it seems silly that I used to consider the Teebird my straight driver.




The XL has always been like an extra long range mid range disc. It was also the 1st disc recognized to fly over 200 meters.....by Scott Stokely when he set the 1998 World Distance Record with it. He used a 169g XL for that throw.

The thing that I really like about the XL is its forgiveness. Since I just started throwing it, there have been many times where I've been a little off in terms of finding the right release angle for the shot I'm trying to throw. In just about every one of these cases I've been afraid to overpower it and put too much hyzer on my release. With most drivers (Teebird included) this would have bad consequences, with the disc flying left the whole way and adding insult to injury with a big skip finish. With the XL, the disc still gets really good forward penetration and always surprises me when I walk up to my lie and the basket is closer than I thought it would be. No big skip either.

I totally agree with the super long midrange comparison because I basically throw the XL just like a Buzz. It just glides on where a Buzz would screech to a halt.

My Hero hooked me up with two sweet ESP XL's.

Too bad it is raining...

They're sweet!!!! With a nice smooth pull they fly farther than you would think. My first week of throwing them I was tripping on how they would just keep flying straight down the fairway.

how do these compare to a star leopard? also--how light do these get?

how do these compare to a star leopard? also--how light do these get?



Probably pretty similar to a star leopard. But i haven't thrown a leopard since the original CE versions. I've sold some ESP XL's as low as 168g.

Too bad it is raining...



I'll trade you your rain drops for these marble and ping pong ball sized hail in my yard!

I just ordered 2 FLX XLs! I hadn't heard anything about them, but I can't wait to try them out!

I just threw my XL's in the field.

Nice.

The best way I can describe the XL is "deliberate".

Whatever it does it does very deliberately.

It does turn, but does very, very slowly.

It does fade, but does so very, very slowly.

It does slow down and descend, but it does so very slowly.

It does skip in a fade, but not drastically.

...and you can lean on it, or you can finesse it. throw hyser, straight anhyser, or turnover.

The net result is that, since it behaves so deliberately, it as a tendency to go very long and straight most of the time. It will bank right with a headwind.

On certain angles to the wind, I out flew my Surges. That kind of surprised me.

Too bad it is raining...



I'll trade you your rain drops for these marble and ping pong ball sized hail in my yard!



It may snow today.... great.

Hero...when can we get some ESP Flashes?

I recieved my FLX XLs in the mail yesterday. They are both white, weighing 174g, and with the big DISCRAFT bar stamp like the player's cup Z Trackers. In the hand they feel great. They are very grippy and not at all floppy. The flight plate feels thin and flexible, but the rim is relatively rigid. They are very flat on top and have a very sleek profile.

I have not had much of a chance to throw them yet, only a few tosses in my backyard. I have a 350' hyzer shot that I practice and the FLX XL got flat right out of my hand and held really well. It flew faster than the ESP version and was more stable at the end of the flight. It was less affected by the wind as well. The low speed fade was much more pronounced, which could definetely be useful at times. I can't wait to take the disc out to the course and throw it some more.

Man, I am really liking the ESP XL. This thing is great.

What would be the XL-X in the Discraft line?

I ordered two ESP Flashes too.

I believe the disc you are asking about is the X2. Unfortunately it has been discontinued.

If you need X2's let me know I have some old X in the chalky plastic as well as some Z plastic ones.

Man, I am really liking the ESP XL. This thing is great.

What would be the XL-X in the Discraft line?

I ordered two ESP Flashes too.



Yo Brad, Are you asking about the XL in elite X plastic? If so, they do make them, and they are also very nice and easily controlled. Just as "deliberate" as the ESP ones.

Incidentally, with the release of the ESP XL i'm finding it difficult to continue to throw all of my old school XL's in the original 1998 "elite" tournament plastic....way before Discraft had 4 blends to choose from.

I believe the disc you are asking about is the X2. Unfortunately it has been discontinued.



That is what I thought...it looked like an XL with a bead. My friend throws an old Stokely X2 it appears to behave like a Teebird (fade to skip stable).

I guess there is little interest in slower drivers these days.

WTF?

I love the X2. The elite-X X2 is a great somewhat overstable driver. The Z X2s are a good deal overstable. I've stopped throwing them, replacing them with Preds, as they're becoming less common to get at tourneys.

I used to throw the X2 as well. I used to throw it very straight from a flat release, with a predictable gliding fade. The only thing is that the Teebird is the same but better in pretty much everyway. A little longer, a little more high speed stable, a little less low speed overstability. The problem with the X2 is that it acheived stability with a giant bead on the bottom. I'm not talking about a Surge-like bead (really just a sharper angle and the bottowm of the wing), but a BEAD like a Wasp. This slows the disc down too much, making it awkward. Often the Z X2s came out too domey, which made them flip in the wind. All in all, the Z X2 flies so close to the Wasp that I can understand why Discraft doesn't make them anymore.
I too love the ESP XL, and I too wish there was an XL X that had the same speed and glide, but more stability. For the time being I carry the Star Teebird as my only remaining Innova product. So far its been more a safety blanket than anything else because the ESP XL is still surprising me with stability when thrown with hyzer. I have the Teebird still so I can throw something flat when its windy. This weekend I will be tournament testing my Discraft bag for the first time, so we will see how it goes.

Why not use a Pred instead of the Teebird?

The X Pred is very similar to a Star Teebird.

I am sure you have tried this, in retrospect.

BTW, have you tried the Flash?

Why not use a Pred instead of the Teebird?

The X Pred is very similar to a Star Teebird.

I am sure you have tried this, in retrospect.

BTW, have you tried the Flash?



First off, I've never been a fan of X plastic in any mold. Most of the time it is very glossy/slick, and it breaks in very fast with hard impacts. Some of my discs are broken in, but as a rule I do not like to throw discs that take some "breaking in" to be what I desire. Also, the predator is quite a bit more gyroscopic than the teebird (larger diameter + more weight distributed to the far edges of the disc), which affects low speed fade and how much the flight is affected by wind. If I got an X Pred to the stability of a Teebird, it would still be touchier/release angle sensitive. Over time I could see myself knowing the ESP XL well enough to have confidence without the Teebird, but for the past year the Teebird has been the disc my game revolved around. There have been times in tournaments where I have felt rattled and lost my "touch". In those times I could still throw my Teebird flat and get it out there straight with a predictable fade. That gave me a lot of confidence knowing I could still do well in tounaments even after getting rattled and loosing my feel.

The Flash was a great disc that I could surpass the Orc with when it came out. It also felt just like the Orc. It is a great all around control D driver. For me, it flies much like a Rogue, though the Rogue is technologically superior imo. Who knows, with my appetite for plastic I may have to pick up a Flash to take out to the field and play with it to update my mental inventory. When I was throwing the Flash, one thing I did not like about it was the fact that runs were not consistant at all in terms of stability. I'd get one that was so stable I would actually have to turn it out of my hand to get a big S with, and another that would fly the exact same way released with 45 degrees of hyzer (I'd give these to away to my less powerful friends to crush). I definetely have had some of my longest freak throws with the Flash.

Wow this is the first time i read this thread. I think the XL is like a forgotten disc. When I first started playing the XL was hot and it seemed like everyone had and threw them. then they died out, not really anybody used or said anything now all the sudden everybody wants them. I always thought they were a great disc and it was what I started with.

The XL has been a forgotten disc. I've been watching my supply dwindle and have been reluctant to buy a lot more. But I picked up 25 of the ESP XLs and really like the way they fly. Great for tunnel shots and other straight shots that are a little longer than you can reach with your Buzzz.

Another forgotten disc is the Cyclone. It is predictably stable driver that is longer than a mid-range. Maybe this one is great for hyzer shots that are a little longer than you can reach with your Wasp! :D

For me, it flies much like a Rogue, though the Rogue is technologically superior imo.



If at all possible I like to throw discs with some semblance of a bead or notch. Something to grip on too.

I like the flight of the Rogue, but the grip reminds me of Wraith. The bottom is just so flat.

WTF, I will try the Flash. I don't really need it though.

I must bite my tongue regarding my somewhat harsh words towards the Z X2. I just found an old one yesterday and I love it. It is like a longer Wasp. It does not look like an XL, but rather a super stabilized Cyclone (notch at top of wing, bead at bottom). I took it out and "aced" the palm tree in my backyard from 340' on my third throw :D. It holds an outstanding slow gliding hyzer. Very nice for all the shorter applications of my Teebird. I might have to stockpile some of these and eventually start a campaign to convince Discraft to run them again! Now I will not have a Teebird in my bag for the tournament this weekend.

I like the grip of the Rogue. It is flat across the bottom like a Wraith, but the wing is sho
On the death and resurrection of the XL, the plastic is what makes the disc. The old school Elite plastic XL broke the distance record, but the Z versions were not as true stable and the newer X plastic is nothing like that old elite stuff. Now in ESP the XLs are coming out sooo nice. The dome follows the shoulder of the disc smoothly, flattening out on top creating a sleeker profile much like the D XLs (which were probably the best flyers before ESP). The ESPs flip so much smoother and more predictably than the Z.

I really like the grip on the Rogue. It is flat across the bottom of the wing like a Wraith, but with a higher shoulder and shorter wing width it fits in my hand much better. The biggest effect of the lack of bead is that the disc is not as stable when thrown flat. If I put hyzer on it the flight is just like the Surge, even in the wind. Most of the time when I am throwing accurate "golf D" (for example a really long shot where you have to first hit a small window), I prefer throwing the Rogue with hyzer and letting it come up to throwing the Surge flat. A hyzer release all but rules out any type of grip lock or late release for me. For more wide open D, I will crush the Surge trusting its stability to handle a harder throw.

I must bite my tongue regarding my somewhat harsh words towards the Z X2. I just found an old one yesterday and I love it. It is like a longer Wasp. It does not look like an XL, but rather a super stabilized Cyclone (notch at top of wing, bead at bottom). I took it out and "aced" the palm tree in my backyard from 340' on my third throw :D. It holds an outstanding slow gliding hyzer. Very nice for all the shorter applications of my Teebird. I might have to stockpile some of these and eventually start a campaign to convince Discraft to run them again! Now I will not have a Teebird in my bag for the tournament this weekend.



NO KIDDING!!!!

If the XL's are coming out so sweet in ESP, run the X2 and make the set complete!!! Kind of like you said the Buzz/Wasp combo and the XL/X2 combo. Then I guess you have the Surge/Rogue combo.

Discraft needs a premium plastic Teebird/slower Predator/Avenger. Like I said, I think slow drivers are just looked at as being too "old school".

My local PIAS has several X2's. I agree, I thought it looked more like a Cyclone/XL crossbreed.

I like the Rogue. I think I would like the Flash better if it flew a similar line. I always like the Orc feel over the Wraith, for example because the Wraith would just "pop" out of my hand sometimes, where the Orc had more grip bite...EH, it's worth a shot...

NO KIDDING!!!!

If the XL's are coming out so sweet in ESP, run the X2 and make the set complete!!! Kind of like you said the Buzz/Wasp combo and the XL/X2 combo. Then I guess you have the Surge/Rogue combo.

Discraft needs a premium plastic Teebird/slower Predator/Avenger. Like I said, I think slow drivers are just looked at as being too "old school".

My local PIAS has several X2's. I agree, I thought it looked more like a Cyclone/XL crossbreed.

I like the Rogue. I think I would like the Flash better if it flew a similar line. I always like the Orc feel over the Wraith, for example because the Wraith would just "pop" out of my hand sometimes, where the Orc had more grip bite...EH, it's worth a shot...



I learned a lot about my bag setup at the tournament I played this weekend. I took out my Wasp because the ZX2 is slightly longer while maintaining the same stability, and the Buzz is more versatile. I didn't use the XL this weekend. It was windy and I just trust my Buzz more. I'm sure the ESP XL is a sweet disc, I'm just having a hard time finding room in my bag. It might be on the backburner for a while. I can throw my Buzz 85% as far as the XL on the same line. I also like the Avenger SS because it is more effortless and picks up where my Buzz leaves off. The X2 is similar to the XL as well, though it has more of a Teebird style flight, which I prefer.

On the Rogue, I used it more than the Surge this weekend (until it got really windy). I too had problems with the Wraith/Teerex/Max ripping out of my hand wrong. To me the Rogue looks much more like the Wraith than it feels like the Wraith in the hand. I have never had release problems with the Rogue, and that is something because it is my finesse D driver and I often throw it with only 80% power. I can get an easier 400-420' with the Rogue than any other disc. I throw it 400 just like I throw the Buzz about 320--slight hyzer release at about 80% power. It is even good in moderate wind, its flip still controlled.

I tuned my XL's a lot.

I kept bending the rim up to tune in more stability until they were perfect. When I first got mine they would tune gradually to the right and stay there. Now, I get a dead straight flight. The wind is really not an issue, truthfully, now that I have done a little tuning.

The XL is, like you say a long Buzz, and not much faster. It will hold an anhyser better than anything I have thrown in a while.

That is one thing I really think ESP has it over all plastics. It takes a tune very well, then it does not wear much at all.

I got my ESP Flashes. They look like a cross between a Valk and an Orc. That might be a good cross.

Yo Speed, I will take those XL's buddy...

My Flashes have the slickest ESP plastic I have ever felt.

These things feel like they are greased with Vaseline. No tack at all like my other ESP discs.

I am going to call Discraft and find out why these are so far off the mark...

&lt;edit&gt;

It appears that the slick surface was some kind of mold release. A thorough wipe with gasoline, and cleaning with hot soapy water yields a plastic feel that is normal.

OK...

So, I just got home from a long weekend vacation in Tulsa to find a box from UPS. It was my two ESP Flashes.

After I cleaned the mold release from the discs with gasoline, I took the discs to the soccer field and went through my little test circuit I have mapped out (this shows benchmark distances). This circuit also forces shots in various relations to the wind.

OK... This is very good driver....

I refuse to say this is the best distance driver I have thrown, but I am tempted.

Picture a Star Orc with a tick more HSS and no fade.
Picture a faster Surge with no fade.
X Crush???? but better in the wind?
Fast.
Easy to throw.
Not nose sensitive at all.
Longer ESP XL, at twice the speed?
Double Buzz?

It fits my hand much better than a Surge. It feels like an Orc or Crush.

Are the ESP Flashes officially released yet? I have yet to see any around.

Nope, still fund raiser only.

Are the ESP Flashes officially released yet? I have yet to see any around.



They are fund raisers but are available from Discraft for $15.

One thing I noticed is that, in the case of the Flash, the ESP molds so much better than the Z. The dome and nose are perfectly formed, like they should be... instead of flattened and stretched like the Z plastic versions.

This is the disc the toolmaker intended to be molded.

Maybe that is making a difference, making the stability "correct". I had heard the Z Flash was all over the place, stability wise, from disc to disc.

BTW, once I cleaned the mold release from the disc it got really tacky. It almost feels like old Tourney plastic. All it needs is the chalk...

The XL is back in my bag. I messed around with the X2 for a while. I did like it at slow and medium speeds, but when I really got on it, it flew unpredictably. It is slower than the XL (ESP) as well. The more I learn the XL, the better I throw it. Its stability and speed are surprising still. It will fly into a headwind with a hyzer release and flip less than most distance drivers. It also has no problem handling low ceilings and it skips straight.

The XL is quickly becoming my "go to" disc. How did that happen?

More throws on the Flash. It appears this disc may be the "low, straight, fast" king. In open field distance the Surge still out distances the Flash, but I think the Flash would be much better for hitting the gap and going long. The Flash appears to be a superior "finesse" driver to th Surge (for me). A medium pull will result in a long straight flight, so you do not need to lay on it to hit the gap, like I might have to do with a Surge.

It has a similar turn rate to the XL. Similar but not as drop dead predictable as the XL.

All in all a good compliment to the Surge (kind of like the Rogue) but not a replacement. it appears to be an excellent compliment to the XL.

I bought a Buzz. I tried the Buzz before, but stayed with the Roc. I liked the flight of the Crystal, but was not impressed with Z plastic. I tried the First run ESP, but it was real flippy. I threw a fella's "full color" Buzz in Tulsa and really liked it. Like a straight Roc but faster with more glide. So, I bought one of the new full color Buzz print ESP Buzz's. This Buzz is solid, no funnies. It just holds any line you put on it like a Wizard. Now I have four straight flying discs Wizard, Buzz, XL, and Flash.

I also have three straight to fade discs Wizard, Surge, ESP Pred.

The Wizard will do both...

More throws on the Flash. It appears this disc may be the "low, straight, fast" king. In open field distance the Surge still out distances the Flash, but I think the Flash would be much better for hitting the gap and going long. The Flash appears to be a superior "finesse" driver to th Surge (for me). A medium pull will result in a long straight flight, so you do not need to lay on it to hit the gap, like I might have to do with a Surge.

I bought a Buzz. I tried the Buzz before, but stayed with the Roc. I liked the flight of the Crystal, but was not impressed with Z plastic. I tried the First run ESP, but it was real flippy. I threw a fella's "full color" Buzz in Tulsa and really liked it. Like a straight Roc but faster with more glide. So, I bought one of the new full color Buzz print ESP Buzz's. This Buzz is solid, no funnies. It just holds any line you put on it like a Wizard. Now I have four straight flying discs Wizard, Buzz, XL, and Flash.


Funny you should say that; I just had a very similar experience this past weekend. Since the Surge came out, it pretty much replaced the Flash as my primary distance driver. For open field distance, the Surge is right up there with the top distance discs. I still had the Flash in my bag, but it was somewhat relegated to big anhyzer shots. However, playing in a tourney this last weekend with a lot of tight fairways and tons of OB, that Flash kept finding it's way into my hands on the tee pads! Just like you said: I could back off the power a bit and still get nice distance with a straight flight to keep it in the fairway. Kind of weird to rediscover a disc that never really left my bag!

Also, I used my Buzzz a TON! Now I've been a Buzzz-o-holic ever since they were released, but of the 21-hole layout, I think I teed off with a Buzzz on well over a third of the holes. Back off the power, hit the gap, and let the float get you decent distance. Once I adopted that philosophy, I started turning in some much better scores than at the beginning of the tourney...

nanook

&lt;off topic&gt;
Eric, congrats on the win! Nice shooting for such a tough layout ... the OB and mandos were insane. :p

&lt;off topic&gt;
Eric, congrats on the win! Nice shooting for such a tough layout ... the OB and mandos were insane. :p


Well, on the second day I stopped going for twos, backed off, and played for threes. The Buzzz/Flash approach I mentioned above really helped during round three and the final nine. Everyone in the division had some rough patches at some point during the weekend. I definitely had my share: going 5-5-4 on 16, 17, &amp; 18 during round two stung a bit! I think I just had a few more good (read: lucky!) bounces towards the end...

nanook

P.S. Sorry for the thread drift...

I think I might give th e FLash another chance here at some point. Too many good discs....too much good plastic...I'm thinking I should start filling my daydreams with putting workouts and competetive strategy instead. In the mean time it is a blast trying new discs. I'm finally really learning the XL (and forgetting the Teebird). Now that I don't accidentally throw it like a Teebird too often it is really paying dividends. I threw a dead straight 360' with the XL yesterday to park a hole in the wind with a ton of OB. The three pros I played with threw hyzers and had long putts to make. The ESP XL is promising to be one of the best "fairway" drivers ever made. It is so much faster than the Z or X versions imo. Very similar speed to a Star Teebird. It flies comfortably hyzer, straight, and anhyzer. It is like a baby Rogue.
I'm throwing the Rogue quite a bit more than the Surge because I can put more touch on it. I pop it up from slight hyzer and it holds a super tight/straight S turn for 400'. It also is better for max D because it holds out longer before coming back. I have so many different Surges right now I'm having a tough time deciding which to throw. The FLX is king in the wind, so it is permanently in my bag. I carry that and the Rogue usually and throw another ESP Surge in the gap for longer courses.
Here's my current bag:
Banger GT 174g(D for putts, ESP for approaches/drives)
Z Breeze 175g(here on the Gulf I like to call "Sea Breeze")
Buzz 176g(2nd 1st run, ESP)
Z Wasp 176g(Flies like a Buzz that is more stable)
Z Extreme 175g(thumbers &amp; utility, SICK overstability)
ESP XL 175g (that is the name of this thread!)
Z Avenger 175g (Straight to hyzer, less skip than Pred, much like a broken-in Pred)
Z Predator 175g (no explaination needed)
Rogue 175g (main D driver)
ESP Surge 174g (D where more fade is necessary)
FLX Surge 175g (windy D--unprecedented head/crosswind driver)

Hey Speed,

How do you choose between the FLX Surge and the Pred?

I love the Pred as a utility/wind/skip/knife heyser driver, by I will be darned if have the annie line to get any distance out of the sucker.

I was thinking about taking the Pulse out for headwind DISTANCE.

I just substituted a new Z Surge for my FLX. The FLX is faster, but it is also less predictable. I liked the FLX performance into a headwind, but that was really its only application. Also, although the plastic is durable, it is not as durable as Z or normal ESP. My FLX Surge took a good tree hit and it left a permanent bend in the rim. It did not turn it flippy, but it did become less overstable. I just got some new yellow 174 Z Surges that are totally flat. These are more overstable than the FLX and almost as fast. The Z's fly on a more consistent flight path imo. I also really like this Z plastic. It is really grippy and surely the most durable version of the Surge.

So now the choice is between the Z Surge and the Z Pred...I would usually choose based on the desired distance. The Surge is faster, so it goes further on whatever line when thrown hard. It also seems to like flying flat better than the Pred (I don't think a Pred is ever flat in the air, its either turning or coming back). And then there is headwind distance. The Pulse is slow. I can throw Teebirds further. I would rather just throw my Z Avenger than throw a Pulse. My Z Surge (and my FLX) is better than almost anything out there in terms of flying in obscene winds. Faster than the Max, more glide than a Spirit, and a stability closer to the Spirit (I've seen the Max flip in 35 mph headwinds) make this the best ever in the headwind dept. I use my Pred on shots where consistency is most important (duece or die hyzers). Also, the Pred has more "true" overstability, meaning it is still spinning really fast when it starts to turn. This and the shape of the wing make the Pred the skip king when I need it.

I had one Z Surge and it sucked. Certainly not more stable. My domey medium blue ESP is my most stable Surge. The domey ones are slower but more consistent and have more glide. The flat ones are fast but fade like mad at the end. I had a Z Avenger that was as overstable as a Z Pred. I have never seen a Surge with the hard Z "pig" plastic. It is all kind of gummy like Flick plastic. I just stick to ESP.

I have an orange ESP Pulse. It is between a Surge and Predator for distance. I would not call it slow, just a pig.

The Flash is really fun to throw. I can work it both ways, or just throw dead straight.

My newer ESP XL is a different disc than the first one I bought. The first one is very stable to overstable. It is very TL-like (think Champion), meaning it holds its line while gliding straight a bit more than say a TB. My newer XL is understable. Thrown flat with some touch it holds a very straight, gentle turnover. I can make it do any anny, but getting it to fade left at the end is tricky. This is a sick disc on wooded holes and is the XL I was looking for to begin with. I have both in my bag and use them often. I just hope that I can find backups for both stabilities and I wonder what is the average stability for an ESP XL.

What color are the 2 XL's you speak of. I have found the white ESP plastic to be more stable than other colors for some of the molds. I have not picked up an EXP XL yet though...

[QUOTE]
I had one Z Surge and it sucked. Certainly not more stable. My domey medium blue ESP is my most stable Surge.

I found my Z Surge to be a stable pig, way more stable then I would like. Which surprised me because the other Am's that I play league with were turning theirs over no problem.
Which is why I carry ESP Surges, 2 flat DGTV and 1 Domey 1st run. I also carry 3 Rogues for tail wind distance and some anny shots
Plus, a Z pred and Z extreme for headwind and spike hyzer.

I carry a Tracker, 3 Buzzes (1st run, Midnight, 2nd 1st run) and a Drone for mids.

Where would a ESP XL fit in my bag?

My red XL was more understable than my white.

I just tweaked them until they were "perfect". ESP tweaks so good. It holds the tweak (once it takes) indefinitely. Now, the red is the better of the two (I have spent more time tweaking it).

People really need to learn to tweak out the molding variation. I can make two discs the same in a few minutes if they are made of the same plastic and the dome is not crazy different.

The XL is a longer, faster Buzz. I put the stability between a Buzz and Roc.

I test threw some ESP XL's when they were sent to TG. I liked them, but they seemed similar to my Z Tracker.

I test threw some ESP XL's when they were sent to TG. I liked them, but they seemed similar to my Z Tracker.



Those must have been like my stable ESP XL. A bit like the Tracker, but with so much more glide. The Z Trackers that I threw were way more overstable. They would go where I aimed them until it was time for the fade, and then BOOM, they would just hyzer into the ground. There was no forward glide on the fade with the Trackers. They also faded way too early to be compared to a longer Buzz, as Discraft does on the website.

Junnila, a lefty, was loving the ESP XL's for big booming anny shots. How would you compare the ESP XL to the Rogue?

I just saw that they have released FLX Preds and Avengers.

The Rogue is a Pro Wraith.

The XL is like beat DX Teebird.

Junnila, a lefty, was loving the ESP XL's for big booming anny shots. How would you compare the ESP XL to the Rogue?

I just saw that they have released FLX Preds and Avengers.



Here is how I would rate the ones I throw (max weight).
Rogue: Speed 10
Glide 5
HSS -1.5
Fade 3
ESP XL:Speed 6
Glide 6
HSS -2
Fade 1

So...The biggest difference is the speed and everything that goes along with that. When the Rogue turns, it turns fast. The XL doesn't do anything fast. I use them for similar looking shots, just at different heights and distances. So for a tunnel shot that is &lt; 240', I use a putter or my Breeze. Between 240'-300'+ I would use my Buzz if the ceiling allowed. At 300'-360' I would be using my XL, once again if the ceiling allowed. 360' and out and I'm using the Rogue. I can use the Rogue on any straight shot over 300' if the ceiling is low or there is some wind. The Rogue has such great speed and glide that the wind is only a factor if you are throwing it fairly hard, which for me is going to be when I'm trying to reach beyond 400'. I hope this helps.

I just wanted to continue praise for this disc. I played a tournament last weekend at a very tough course with many par 4's and 5's and OB everywhere. On the longer holes I was almost always reaching for my XL for the second shot. I guess this is where the term "fairway driver" comes from, and my XL is a perfect example. I could put it up in the air exactly where I was aiming and let it turn right slowly all the way to the ground, flattening and fading forward as it went. Innova and Gateway throwers were asking me all weekend, "what was that disc?", because they had nothing in their arsenals to match that flight. The XL reminds me to take it slowww...and this greatly helps my accuracy and precision. The ESP plastic feels better to me in these discs than any other, and none of my XLs have broken in at all yet. The whites have become my favorite even though I started with a couple of red ones, mostly due to a more nuetral stability.

XL rehash: Curious as to how much power you put behind your fairway drives and what percent of your max D (with your max D driver) do you comfortably get?

XL rehash: Curious as to how much power you put behind your fairway drives and what percent of your max D (with your max D driver) do you comfortably get?



I use my XL mostly for "fairway drives" between about 325'-380'. At this distance I go through my throwing motion very slow right up to the snap. I give them a good snap to get them turning, otherwise they are stable to slightly overstable. I'm looking forward to getting one broken in to being a bit more of an understable finesse disc.

For the second part of your question, the XL goes far if you throw it hard. You just have to put a decent amount of hyzer or give it some height and throw it hard. You don't have to put that much hyzer on your release because the disc turns so slowly. This weekend I had a couple of 400'+ shots with my XL (with about 30' of height, slight tailwind). I throw my max D drivers about 450' on the golf course. With a strong tailwind I imagine it will go about as far as anything out there.