First time I've seen this happen. We were playing a round at a sanctioned event in Athens, AL. Adv and Pro players were playing longer pads than the other groups. Hole 15 has an optional drop zone for Pro's/Adv players who throw OB off the tee. One of the players in my group throws a shot over some trees on our left. When we reached the area where the disc landed we found that there was a large swampy area connected to an OB creek. I've played the course a lot and I had no idea the swamp existed. It took a really unique shot to get there. Anyway, we couldn't find the disc. It was pretty obvious that it was most likely OB in the water, but no one could have seen it off the tee due to the fact it was in the middle of a heavily forrested area with a lot of underbrush. Here's the question, could the player use the optional drop zone, or did he have to retee due to having lost the disc? The group decided that he should retee because the disc was lost and not OB. I agreed with this, but why could he not use the drop zone (this is more of a philisophical question than a literal one)? Can a TD say before a round that if your disc is OB or Lost on a hole then you can use a drop zone?

If you want to use a drop zone for a lost disc, the TD has to get permission from the Competition Director in advance of the event. Otherwise, lost disc is a penalty and play from the previous lie, in this case, the tee.

If it was reasonable to assume that the disc went OB, you can play it as OB, which in this case would've let him go to the drop zone.

More accurately, if you have reasonable evidence that it is o.b., he can play it as o.b. It would be a group call on whether you have reasonable evidence, but reasonable evidence would require at least some evidence.

If you want to use a drop zone for a lost disc, the TD has to get permission from the Competition Director in advance of the event. Otherwise, lost disc is a penalty and play from the previous lie, in this case, the tee.



Can a TD decide right before the event that players who lose discs do not take a penalty during a sanctioned event? Rather, it would be a group decision where the disc was last seen and the shot would be played from there. For example, if there is 20" of snow on the ground.

He can. But if the tournament is sanctioned, he's violating the sanctioning agreement clause that says he won't vary the rules.

The Tour Manager, Dave Gentry, is the one who makes the call on these issues. There are other issues for winter events such as determining how to play water that may be fully frozen to walk on or just icy enough to allow discs to slide across. We usually get the exception for winter events here where the old lost disc rule is used but without penalty. In other words, the group determines approximately where the disc disappeared in the snow and the player plays from there but with no lost disc penalty. But the TD has to ask in advance to get the exception.

More accurately, if you have reasonable evidence that it is o.b., he can play it as o.b. It would be a group call on whether you have reasonable evidence, but reasonable evidence would require at least some evidence.



How much evidence is enough? If a disc goes into an area which has water, but no one knows before hand and no one can see from the tee, who knows where it lands? The area was surrounded by briar patches and the trees could have caught it in the air. It could have been anywhere.

That's why it's called 'lost'...

Evidence means that someone has to see it go in. Or, it has to be a place where the grass is perfectly mowed everywhere and the only place a disc could be was in the water.

That's why it's called 'lost'...

Evidence means that someone has to see it go in. Or, it has to be a place where the grass is perfectly mowed everywhere and the only place a disc could be was in the water.


You sure? To me, reasonable evidence could be "the disc turned over and headed towards that thar OB lake. We couldn't find the disc, and it's reasonable to think the disc might have gone in the OB lake. Therefore, benefit to the thrower says we can call it OB."

The benefit being that the thrower can throw from the drop zone if there is one, the last place the group guesses the disc was in fair territory, or from the previous spot.

That would be reasonable evidence that the disc might have gone OB, not that it did.

I don't think the grass has to be perfectly mowed down to the OB line, just easily searchable where the disc was seen heading toward the OB.

I recently asked the rules committee a question related to this post thread. Here's my question and the response from the committee chairman:

Question:
Dear Rules Gurus,

I am interested to know if I am interpreting rule 803.09A correctly. Specifically I want to know when a missing disc may be considered OB versus being a LOST disc. Here is my interpretation of the rule as simply as I can pose it:

1. Disc not located, all players SURE disc is IB = lost disc
2. Disc not located, players NOT sure if disc is OB/IB = lost disc
3. Disc not located, all players SURE disc is OB = OB

I am specifically interested in situation #3; is it correct? If so, what constitutes "reasonable evidence" that the disc is OB? Real example: Every player on the card watched a disc enter an "island of OB", then cannot find it. OB or lost disc?

Thanks in advance for your help,

nanook

Response:
Thanks for writing.

You've done a nice job of laying out the options.

We agree that number 3 is the one with the most latitude.

That's why we created a Q & A on it.

Hop back to the rules page and look under the Q & As for "Lost or OB?", please.

That should answer your question.

For your "real example" I'd say that was clearly (reasonable evidence) and the disc is OB.

Yours Sincerely;

Carlton Howard
PDGA Rules Committee Chairman

I thought I would add this to the discussion in case it helps.

nanook